Kavi Santokh Singh's Suraj Prakash And Nanak Prakash

[spnadmin]

I think we should end it here and say believe in Guru Granth Sahib Ji ONLY and reads and study any literature that doesn't contradict Guru Granth Sahib Ji. WAHEGUR

Sikh Gianii ji

You began this conversation. Now you want to end it. I do not think the time is right. Let's give some other members Tat Khalsa and adherents of "puratan" views a chance to debate. So far it has been only 3 of us. Presumably Tat Khalsa would only agree with your pro-Guru Granth point of view.

 

[SikhGiani]

Sikh Gianii ji
Presumably Tat Khalsa would only agree with your pro-Guru Granth point of view.

Isnt everyone believer in Guru Granth Sahib so every one is Tat Khalsa.

Apparently not everyone is Tat Khalsa, nor in the past has everyone been Tat Khalsa who blieved in Guru Granth Sahib. Otherwise there would not be more than 200 years of debate on different sides of the aisle. spnadmin

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat Singh ji

I am not talking about granth the book, but Shabad Guru which is in the book. And you know that.

After writing a detailed response to you, I have deleted it. No intention of getting into a debate on the matter of a TOS vioation.

Your statements also take us off tangent into the realm of whether Sikhism is another form of Vedic philosophy.

 

[SikhGiani]

Sikh Gianii ji

You began this conversation. Now you want to end it. I do not think the time is right. Let's give some other members Tat Khalsa and adherents of "puratan" views a chance to debate. So far it has been only 3 of us. Presumably Tat Khalsa would only agree with your pro-Guru Granth point of view.

my views are that Using Guru Granth Sahib Ji and work of Bhai Gurdas Ji and Bhai Nand Lal Ji we should examine everything through these works.

When we don't use these as our standard to judge everything then we get off into hindu ideas which Guru Nanak Sahib brought us out of, When we get away from Bani we start to bring Vedant into Gurdwaras and explien the meanings of vedant granths in Gurdwara. We should study all religious works but we should also know that Gurbani doesn't believe in them. Shouldnt Gurbani be the final solution. I remember listening to a Nirmal Sadhu who said that you must believe in Bani as Sat and Ved Bani as Sat. Can't people see the difference in vadas and Gurbani.

Gurbani is Jag main Chanan.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sikh Giani Ji, contemplate this shabad from SGGS:
YouTube - ‪Bhai Maninder Singh (SriNagar) - Koi Bole Ram Ram Koi Khuda - Sikh, Hindu, Sufi, Islam, etc‬‏

Then if there are any other issues with the book, please let me know, as I want to eventually get into reading this book as well.

 

[findingmyway]

Yes, I would recommend reading (to myself as well) as many historic documents as possible. That will give the best picture. We can further check historical locations, artifacts, etc mentioned in the granth to verify its authenticity but other than that...

I take the opposite view. I focus entirely on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and have stopped taking heed of other texts as they all have some inaccuracies. I don't need anything other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to understand Sikhi. The principles of Sikhi go much beyond culture and traditions so those things are secondary.

These books give a more accurate account to history than we can conjure up after living in the 21st century. I mean these guys were closer to the traditional, historical Sikh ways and culture than we are. (Kavi Sahib was around during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time)

I disagree. From the little history I know about Maharaja Ranjot Singh, I would say he was very far from Sikhi!! Knowing history is not necessary to follow Sikh principles as shown by the people who come from completely different backgrounds and cultures and still find solace in Sikhi. History is easily distorted and can only be guessed, never known for 100% sure (this is what we learnt in history lessons at school) so focus on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and let history be a secondary interest rather than history dictating your beliefs.

We should not be so quick to judge things as right or wrong, anti or pro gurmat (not pointing fingers, just general advice for me to keep in mind).

It is very easy to judge what is pro and anti gurmat and that is by comparing to Gurbani. This is VITAL so we do not fall into traps and move away from the Guru's word.

Bhagat Singh ji, using a different word for God is completely different to validating the concept of a devi!

 

[spnadmin]

Thanks for the video Bhagat ji. I am writing an article entitled, All Religions are Not ONE! All Visions of God are not the Same! And can use the shabad to demonstrate that Guru Nanak is talking about respect for all paths. That is not the same thing, of course, as a corporate merger. A pretty straightforward thesis. Disagreement is not disrespect.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Findingmyway ji,
How can that be? I am in agreement with you. If one wants to understand Sikhism, one must read and contemplate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji PERIOD

If the focus is to know history then for that we will have to read historical texts, and do so without the veils of judgement and analysis first. (This is hard because like you say it's so easy to start judging) But your understanding of the text will be much stronger this way. After we read them then we can judge and analyze all we want, of course.

Kavi ji was of Maharaja's time. Reading his works provides insight into that time period (insight into political, religious, etc factors) and into that which he is writing about. The more books on a particular subject one reads the more insight is available. In the end, if one wants to understand Sikhism, one must read and contemplate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

When it comes to beliefs, you give great advice. I would add that practice must be present with belief.

Spnadmin ji,
You are welcome and more power to you! Though I don't think it's so hard for people to see religion as different. Like you said it's pretty straight forward.

On the other hand, it's a steep cliff to see the One in it all, and no thesis can get you there (if you can write one that does, I will give you everything I have, for it). The shabad talks about both aspects of it all. It says religions are different (maybe in disagreement with each other) and yet there is the One in them and their goal is that One. This kind of respect that Guru ji had is much deeper than what you are I are familiar with. Since it's not language-based, it can not be put into words (hence no thesis can be written about it, sorry no paintings for you ). Guru Sahib advises that if one wants to experience this level of respect, if one wants to know what he is talking about, one should meditate on Naam. You already know that though.

Anyways, do let me know when you complete writing it. I am particularly interested in how you argue that visions of God are different.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

It says religions are different (maybe in disagreement with each other) and yet there is the One in them and their goal is that One.

I think the Shabad points out to different ways people are trying to reach God, and how God Himself is the controlling factor in what is revealed and what is not! God reveals and it is up to you to ask for more, more visions and wisdom from God. E.g. in the first of line of this Shabad, the Persian word Khwdai (خدای) means Lord, Master, Ruler etc and the word Ram means Ramya hoya, i.e. ਸਰਬ ਵਿਆਪੀ, so Guru Sahib is saying that God is one Ruler who is part of his Kingdom. Not like kings of ol' who went about in charriots, atop elephants or VIP of today who go about in car fleets.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:

ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਕੋਈ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥
Some call Him, 'Raam, Raam', and some call Him, 'Khudaa-i'.

ਕੋਈ ਸੇਵੈ ਗੁਸਈਆ ਕੋਈ ਅਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
Some serve Him as 'Gusain', others as 'Allaah'. ||1||

ਕਾਰਣ ਕਰਣ ਕਰੀਮ ॥
He is the Cause of causes, the Generous Lord.

ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਰਹੀਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. ||1||Pause||

ਕੋਈ ਨਾਵੈ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਕੋਈ ਹਜ ਜਾਇ ॥
Some bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and some make the pilgrimage to Mecca.|

ਕੋਈ ਕਰੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਿਵਾਇ ॥੨॥
Some perform devotional worship services, and some bow their heads in prayer. ||2||

ਕੋਈ ਪੜੈ ਬੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਕਤੇਬ ॥
Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.

ਕੋਈ ਓਢੈ ਨੀਲ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਪੇਦ ॥੩॥
Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. ||3||

ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.

ਕੋਈ ਬਾਛੈ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਰਗਿੰਦੂ ॥੪॥
Some yearn for paradise, and others long for heaven. ||4||

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥
Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will,

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਜਾਤਾ ॥੫॥੯॥
knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||

Guru Sahib also talk about people recognizing God with different places and different forms of clothing. The followers call themselves with different names, but don't know the secrets of God.

I am particularly interested in how you argue that visions of God are different.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I don't think that visions of God in completeness are different. But most people see God in some things and don't in others. Some see God in their love for children, some love their pets and thank God for their company. Some think about God while going for a walk and seeing the nature beauty all around them. It is a bit about how your senses are heightened to experience God. You experience God more when you try to connect with God more, like you said, using Naam.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

Please do not patronize. When has Akaal ever threatened his Sikhs either through a Guru or directly? Here is a "Tale of Two Cities." And of two Gods: Only one does not seek expiation from his people, and one does.

Here is "God" speaking to the Israelites through isaiah as a warning for their sins

The Warning to Jerusalem (from the Hebrew Bible: Isaiah 28)

14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Rom. 9.33 ; 10.11 · 1 Pet. 2.6
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Per'azim, 2 Sam. 5.20 · 1 Chr. 14.11 he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, Josh. 10.10-12 that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Following is Guru Nanak speaking about the historical event, the destruction of Lahore by Babar. In this shabad God is not making far-ranging threats against his "chosen" people. Rather Nanak is teaching, i.e., fixing moral consciousness where it belongs, for the benefit of armies and rulers driven by greed and ego, and on those who worship ignorance ignorantly. He uses the story of Hanuman, he is speaking to Hindu people, to illustrate his point. Yet liberation of the spirit even in this life is possible, by being centered in dharma. Wisdom is given when ego is forsaken. And Lahore is taken to be an ambrosial pool. Whereas Jerusalem is threatened with destruction.

There could not be 2 more different visions of God.

The destruction of Lahore (from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 1412)

ਸਭਨੀ ਘਟੀ ਸਹੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਹ ਬਿਨੁ ਘਟੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Sabẖnī gẖatī saho vasai sah bin gẖat na ko▫e.
God the Cosmic Husband dwells within all hearts; without Him, there is no heart at all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੯॥
Nānak ṯe sohāgaṇī jinĥā gurmukẖ pargat ho▫e. ||19||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs are the happy, virtuous soul-brides; the Lord is revealed to them. ||19||

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
Ja▫o ṯa▫o parem kẖelaṇ kā cẖā▫o.
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
Sir ḏẖar ṯalī galī merī ā▫o.
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥
Iṯ mārag pair ḏẖarījai.
When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥
Sir ḏījai kāṇ na kījai. ||20||
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||

ਨਾਲਿ ਕਿਰਾੜਾ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥
Nāl kirāṛā ḏosṯī kūrhai kūṛī pā▫e.
False is friendship with the false and greedy. False is its foundation.

ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੂਲਿਆ ਆਵੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੨੧॥
Maraṇ na jāpai mūli▫ā āvai kiṯai thā▫e. ||21||
O Moollah, no one knows where death shall strike. ||21||

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
Gi▫ān hīṇaʼn agi▫ān pūjā.
Without spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance.

ਅੰਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨੨॥
Anḏẖ varṯāvā bẖā▫o ḏūjā. ||22||
They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality. ||22||

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Gur bin gi▫ān ḏẖaram bin ḏẖi▫ān.
Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation.

ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਖੀ ਮੂਲੋ ਨ ਬਾਕੀ ॥੨੩॥
Sacẖ bin sākẖī mūlo na bākī. ||23||
Without Truth, there is no credit; without capital, there is no balance. ||23||

ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ॥
Māṇū gẖalai uṯẖī cẖalai.
The mortals are sent into the world; then, they arise and depart.

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥
Sāḏ nāhī ivehī galai. ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||

ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥
Rām jẖurai ḏal melvai anṯar bal aḏẖikār.
Raam Chand, sad at heart, assembled his army and forces.

ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Banṯar kī sainā sevī▫ai man ṯan jujẖ apār.
The army of monkeys was at his service; his mind and body became eager for war.

ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥
Sīṯā lai ga▫i▫ā ḏėhsiro lacẖẖmaṇ mū▫o sarāp.
Raawan captured his wife Sita, and Lachhman was cursed to die.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥
Nānak karṯā karanhār kar vekẖai thāp uthāp. ||25||
O Nanak, the Creator Lord is the Doer of all; He watches over all, and destroys what He has created. ||25||

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
Man mėh jẖūrai rāmcẖanḏ sīṯā lacẖẖmaṇ jog.
In his mind, Raam Chand mourned for Sita and Lachhman.

ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥
Haṇvanṯar ārāḏẖi▫ā ā▫i▫ā kar sanjog.
Then, he remembered Hanuman the monkey-god, who came to him.

ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥
Bẖūlā ḏaiṯ na samjẖa▫ī ṯin parabẖ kī▫e kām.
The misguided demon did not understand that God is the Doer of deeds.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥
Nānak veparvāhu so kiraṯ na mit▫ī rām. ||26||
O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||

ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
Mėhlā 3.
Third Mehl:

ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
The city of Lahore is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||

Forgive the brevity of my comments. I am not inclined at this moment in time to do a complete analysis of the shabad.

 

[spnadmin]

Guru Sahib also talk about people recognizing God with different places and different forms of clothing. The followers call themselves with different names, but don't know the secrets of God.



I don't think that visions of God in completeness are different. But most people see God in some things and don't in others. Some see God in their love for children, some love their pets and thank God for their company. Some think about God while going for a walk and seeing the nature beauty all around them. It is a bit about how your senses are heightened to experience God. You experience God more when you try to connect with God more, like you said, using Naam.

Kanwaljit ji

I do not draw your conclusion from the shabad. The shabad is part of a body of hymns composed when Guruji was on an Udassis. He was respectfully acknowledging that people do all these sorts of things. He was also rejecting these in favor of one thing

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥
Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will,

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਜਾਤਾ ॥੫॥੯॥
knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||

The shabad is Guru Nanak's rejection of robes, rituals, colors of devotion, baths in sacred palces.... a very kind and respectful rejection... in favor of being a Gurmukh...one who turns his face away from distractions that appear religious and toward the Guru. The aim is to realize God's Will and leave behind the rest. Why am I adamant? Because the rehao iine is

ਕਾਰਣ ਕਰਣ ਕਰੀਮ ॥
He is the Cause of causes, the Generous Lord.

ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਰਹੀਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. ||1||Pause||

This kartar purakhu who is akaal, without anger or enmity (unlike all the other representations of God in history) is Generous, full of Grace and Mercy, which he gives without asking for anything in return. Please forgive me. What could we give him? A pig, a goat, gold, an ox, a virgin? He is formless and needs nothing. He is the Giver of Everything not the Taker (unlike other gods). He is in everything and thus has everything, needs nothing, and never makes threats.

 

[findingmyway]

Findingmyway ji,
How can that be? I am in agreement with you. If one wants to understand Sikhism, one must read and contemplate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji PERIOD

If the focus is to know history then for that we will have to read historical texts, and do so without the veils of judgement and analysis first. (This is hard because like you say it's so easy to start judging) But your understanding of the text will be much stronger this way. After we read them then we can judge and analyze all we want, of course.

Kavi ji was of Maharaja's time. Reading his works provides insight into that time period (insight into political, religious, etc factors) and into that which he is writing about. The more books on a particular subject one reads the more insight is available. In the end, if one wants to understand Sikhism, one must read and contemplate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Many people approach history with assumptions and preconceptions. It is not used for validation but is used as informative. For example your statement earlier that Maharaja Ranjit Singh practiced Sikhi closer to the Guru's time. These assumptions are often dangerous as they colour understanding of Gurbani rather than Gurbani colouring the understanding of history. Our approach is where we differ. It is this very history that has caused do much Hindutva influence to remain in modern day Sikh practices-the very things the Guru's preached against.

On the other hand, it's a steep cliff to see the One in it all, and no thesis can get you there (if you can write one that does, I will give you everything I have, for it). The shabad talks about both aspects of it all. It says religions are different (maybe in disagreement with each other) and yet there is the One in them and their goal is that One. This kind of respect that Guru ji had is much deeper than what you are I are familiar with. Since it's not language-based, it can not be put into words (hence no thesis can be written about it, sorry no paintings for you ). Guru Sahib advises that if one wants to experience this level of respect, if one wants to know what he is talking about, one should meditate on Naam. You already know that though.

There is a distinction between saying God is in all and believing concepts from other religions. Respect of others and accepting God in all does not mean I will start believing in Moses parting the sea or the Hindu gods as portrayed in their stories. This distinction is vital to stop us becoming slaves of Hindu mythology from which we were freed by the Gurus.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Spnadmin ji,
Yes I may have sounded patronizing though that was not my intention.

Yes words and concepts of different religions are different. For one That can be Vengeful for the other That is always Peaceful. What is important it to know That which is written about in scriptures in various ways.

It will be hard to respond to you (if you are looking for one from me) as I get the feeling you are very lost in the words and concepts. Lost meaning nothing else but that you are analyzing them and looking only in them for the Truth.

Remember, the Dao that can be named (fully - described, analyzed, judged, etc) is not the Dao.
[Though it's funny how Lao Tzu goes onto describe the Dao right after.
Guru Nanak does the same thing. Says I cannot describe Karta Purakh even if I could write at the speed of hurricanes and had ever flowing scrolls... then goes to do it anyways. ]

It's the only thing we have - language - to try and give form to the Formless. But Language cannot encapsulate the Formless. It is certainly part of the formless, and that's the only reason why it can even attempt to give the formless some form.

Think of the Karta Purakh as ink. Think of all the cultures, eras, people, views, environments, as different stamps. (or the other way around, it doesn't matter) When the ink (formless) makes a mark (form) through the stamp, it appears different because of the individual stamp used. We can quickly see how the mark is different but difficult to see the ink because it is taken for granted. The ink is on the stamp and the ink is in the marks, yet it is invisible. We are so used to the ink being there for us. WE are blind to it. But those who see the ink, know the secret. They have inner peace. They have no need to quarrel over what mark is what. It's all in the ink they say!

This is the essence of that shabad stated by stamp of Bhagat. You are also expressing that same essence with your stamp, as did Kanwaljit Singh ji. It's awesome isn't it? So many stamps, so many marks! The ink allows the mark-making, and yet goes unnoticed!

Findingmyway ji,

Many people approach history with assumptions and preconceptions. It is not used for validation but is used as informative. For example your statement earlier that Maharaja Ranjit Singh practiced Sikhi closer to the Guru's time. These assumptions are often dangerous as they colour understanding of Gurbani rather than Gurbani colouring the understanding of history. Our approach is where we differ. It is this very history that has caused do much Hindutva influence to remain in modern day Sikh practices-the very things the Guru's preached against.

Yes but just to let you know, I did not say which you are claiming I said.
This is why I tell myself that reading should be done with a clear mind, and this applies not just to historical documents but to other people, etc, everything.

There is a distinction between saying God is in all and believing concepts from other religions. Respect of others and accepting God in all does not mean I will start believing in Moses parting the sea or the Hindu gods as portrayed in their stories. This distinction is vital to stop us becoming slaves of Hindu mythology from which we were freed by the Gurus.

Yes exactly.

More good advice.

Thank you both

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

I reject most of this. You are speaking sant mat, not gurmat.

Yes words and concepts of different religions are different. For one That can be Vengeful for the other That is always Peaceful. What is important it to know That which is written about in scriptures in various ways.

It will be hard to respond to you (if you are looking for one from me) as I get the feeling you are very lost in the words and concepts. Lost meaning nothing else but that you are analyzing them and looking only in them for the Truth.

This is what is patronizing, unless of course you achieved the state of sadhoo and somehow I missed your step upward in spiritual evolution. If that is so, then I am a moorath and nothing will help me save the grace of Waheguru, not you.

Remember, the Dao that can be named (fully - described, analyzed, judged, etc) is not the Dao.
[Though it's funny how Lao Tzu goes onto describe the Dao right after.
Guru Nanak does the same thing. Says I cannot describe Karta Purakh even if I could write at the speed of hurricanes and had ever flowing scrolls... then goes to do it anyways. ]


It's the only thing we have - language - to try and give form to the Formless. But Language cannot encapsulate the Formless. It is certainly part of the formless, and that's the only reason why it can even attempt to give the formless some form.

Think of the Karta Purakh as ink. Think of all the cultures, eras, people, views, environments, as different stamps. (or the other way around, it doesn't matter) When the ink (formless) makes a mark (form) through the stamp, it appears different because of the individual stamp used. We can quickly see how the mark is different but difficult to see the ink because it is taken for granted. The ink is on the stamp and the ink is in the marks, yet it is invisible. We are so used to the ink being there for us. WE are blind to it. But those who see the ink, know the secret. They have inner peace. They have no need to quarrel over what mark is what. It's all in the ink they say!

Good fortune on your journey.

This is the essence of that shabad stated by stamp of Bhagat. You are also expressing that same essence with your stamp, as did Kanwaljit Singh ji. It's awesome isn't it? So many stamps, so many marks! The ink allows the mark-making, and yet goes unnoticed!

But you are certainly free to make this statement, as long as we both understand you are writing with the stamp of Bhagat Singh and not giving views per Gurmat vichaar. Please also consider the possibility that findingmyway is reading with a clear mind, as may be others who do not share your views. Otherwise you know action will need to be taken. Sat Nam.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Yes

Please tell me about sant mat and gurmat, and what the difference is. I don't know anything about the two. I am ready to listen, to learn.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

Please tell me about sant mat and gurmat, and what the difference is. I don't know anything about the two. I am ready to listen, to learn.

You know me. I am always keen to jump in. But just out of curiosity... are there other members with an interest? There are more than 15,000 members and some percentage of them are very learned people who would give thoughtful answers backed up with knowledge. As a matter of principle: if someone or two or three (besides you, Kanwaljit Singh, findingmyway, Giani ji, SikhGiani, and I) don't give you a reply today, I will respond. .

On another matter: We want to tie our replies to the thread title, Kavi Santokh Singh...etc...so that we do not go off topic.

 

[jassasingh]

I have taken santheya of most of the work of kavi santokh singh ji and if you look at the volume of the itehas and that to in perfect poetry.

It is impossible to write even 10% percent of it without guru jis kirpa.

Its katha is done every day at all the takths and major gurdwaras. The errors now where not errors even 50 - 60 years back because people were more into gurbani and itehas veechar then today.

Regarding one of the error anyone can do an independent research the current form on anadkarj we see was started by nirankari samparda (when they were a part of sikh dharma).

Before that it was around fire. Thanks to printing press we have parkash of guru granth sahib in gurdwaras . During Baba Deep singh jis time there were only 6 to 8 Guru Granth sahib jis sroop this world. Its not even practical possible to do anadkarj as we do today in the hazuri of guru Granth sahib.

When you will test itehas about anadkarj and other things in suraj parkash from other sources most of your doubts will be clear

 

[findingmyway]

The errors now where not errors even 50 - 60 years back because people were more into gurbani and itehas veechar then today.

Where is your proof for this? From what I have seen my parents and grandparents seem to be more influenced by Hindu practices and thinking than my generation!

 

[BhagatSingh]

Hindu practices and thinking

Jasleen ji what are these practices and thinking followed by your elders?

And what "Sikh practices and thinking" do you do?

 

[aristotle]

I myself have listened to the katha of Suraj Prakash in the local Gurudwara, and if one was to blindly follow this book, it gives validity to the Hindu concept of Gods and Godesses, Considers Gurus as the incarnation of prominent Hindu Gods, considers miracles as commonplace happenings and what not. But thankfully enough, we have our true guide, The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who guides us from confusions and doubts into the realm of eternal knowledge. We should only keep the substance and reject the chaff. I understand that the Suraj Prakash may be the source of many kinds of important historical information, but we should also keep in mind validating the book by advanced historical research and not just follow it word to word.
Waheguru