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Hinduism Kinds Of Raam?

Archived_member2

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Jul 18, 2004
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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Jatinder Jee!

Quote "Then One more question came up . is this Sajjan is also the guide guiding us back home?"
The real Guide is the true Sabad. This Sajjan becomes the beloved brotherly companion all the way.
ਸੁਣਿ ਸਜਣ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਭਾਈ ਮੈ ਮੇਲਿਹੁ ਮਿਤ੍ਰੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ॥
सुणि सजण मेरे प्रीतम भाई मै मेलिहु मित्रु सुखदाता ॥
Suṇ sajaṇ mėrė parīṯam bẖā*ī mai mėlihu miṯar sukẖ*ḏāṯa.



Balbir Singh
 

Archived_Member_19

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dear all

i think the references provided by Balbir ji and TGill ji prove that we must stop a practice followed by all myopic, blinkered and bigoted preachers of all religions -

Slandering another religion

Religion is a personal faith, inner journey and people look out side. That is exactly the irony Guru ji pointed out.

people use Raam in any sense as convenient.

If Guru ji said Raam - oh it was spiritual

While reading about Raam and actions in Ramayana - ah its just a story. Its human form discussion. How bad Raam was and all that.

to be consistent, let us have same glasses while reading all religious texts and analyzing all religious beliefs.

To analyse a religion we must use "their" interpretation of their texts, not ours.



coming back to the bengali poem which has raised the discussion in this forum to almost calling someone's representation of same One Force a "murderer" - It is a personal opinion and expression of a poet. There are many poets who write slandering things about sikh Gurus, do we use or believe that text ??

Internet is an easy way to slander and spread rumors.

to all inquistive i would suggest reading the books first before commenting. also i am of the opinion that if you donot believe in a religion, stop commenting on it :)

if its good or bad, only the person experiencing it knows. :)
 

kds1980

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- The point I'm making is that Ram only existed in Godly sense and never existed in ordinary sense as against the parcharaks.

Even if you talk about Ram without reference to Gurbani it will be in Godly sense.

what about the following verse

ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥
रामु झुरै दल मेलवै अंतरि बलु अधिकार ॥
Rām jẖurai ḏal mėlvai anṯar bal aḏẖikār.
Raam Chand, sad at heart, assembled his army and forces.


ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
बंतर की सैना सेवीऐ मनि तनि जुझु अपारु ॥
Banṯar kī sainā sėvīai man ṯan jujẖ apār.
The army of monkeys was at his service; his mind and body became eager for war.


ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥
सीता लै गइआ दहसिरो लछमणु मूओ सरापि ॥
Sīṯā lai gaiā ḏehsiro lacẖẖmaṇ mūo sarāp.
Raawan captured his wife Sita, and Lachhman was cursed to die.


ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥
नानक करता करणहारु करि वेखै थापि उथापि ॥२५॥
Nānak karṯā karanhār kar vėkẖai thāp uthāp. ||25||
O Nanak, the Creator Lord is the Doer of all; He watches over all, and destroys what He has created. ||25||


ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
मन महि झूरै रामचंदु सीता लछमण जोगु ॥
Man meh jẖūrai rāmcẖanḏ sīṯā lacẖẖmaṇ jog.
In his mind, Raam Chand mourned for Sita and Lachhman.


ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥
हणवंतरु आराधिआ आइआ करि संजोगु ॥
Haṇvanṯar ārāḏẖiā āiā kar sanjog.
Then, he remembered Hanuman the monkey-god, who came to him.


ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥
भूला दैतु न समझई तिनि प्रभ कीए काम ॥
Bẖūlā ḏaiṯ na samjẖaī ṯin parabẖ kīė kām.
The misguided demon did not understand that God is the Doer of deeds.


ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥
नानक वेपरवाहु सो किरतु न मिटई राम ॥२६॥
Nānak vėparvāhu so kiraṯ na mitī rām. ||26||
O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||


ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||
 

kds1980

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कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan meh bẖėḏ hai ṯā meh ėk bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.


ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
Soī rām sabẖai kaheh soī kauṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||


ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibė māhi bibėk.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.


ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anėkeh mil gaiā ėk samānā ėk. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||
 

kds1980

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Here is the shabad from dasam granth

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=dasam_granth&action=pagebypage&page=99
mhwdIn kyqy ipRQI mWJ hUey ] smY AwpnI AwpnI AMq mUey ] 27]

Mahaadoon kete prithoo maanjh hooe|| Samai aapanoo aapanoo ant mooe||27||

Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27.

Line 1


ijqy AaulIAw AMbIAw hoie bIqy ] iqiqE kwl jIqw n qy kwl jIqy ]

Jite aulooaa anbooaa hoe boote|| Titio kaal jootaa n ate kaal joote||

All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (him).

Line 2


ijqy rwm sy ikRsn huie ibsn Awey ] iqiqE kwl KwipE n qy kwl Gwey ] 28]

Jite Raam se Krisan hue Bisan aae|| Titio kaal khaapio n ate kaal ghaae||28||

All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28.

Line 3


ijqy ieMdR sy cMdR sy hoq Awey ] iqiqE kwl Kwpw n qy kwl Gwey ]

Jite Indra se chandra se hot aae|| Titio kaal khaapaa na te kaal ghaae||

All the indras and Chandras (moons) who came into being were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him.

Line 4


ijqy AyMlIAw AMbIAw gyMs hYUuhYN ] sBY kwl ky AMq dwVw qlY hYN ] 29]

Jite aulooaa anbooaa gaus hvaihain|| Sabhai kaal ke ant daa?aa talai hain||29||

All those Prophets, saints and hermits, who came into being, were all ultimately crushed under the grinder tooth of KAL.29.

Here ram is described in ordinary sense
 

TGill

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Jul 31, 2007
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KDS ji - Remove those translations and read the sabad again, Ram is again used in Godly sense . How can Nanak be ever used in ordinary sense . I don't think it is possible !

Same holds true for Ram.
 

kds1980

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KDS ji - Remove those translations and read the sabad again, Ram is again used in Godly sense . How can Nanak be ever used in ordinary sense . I don't think it is possible !

Same holds true for Ram.
T gill ji

Also if you can read punjabi please read the interpretation of pro sahib singh of shabad of guru nanak

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan1/1412.html

According to him raam in the shabad of guru nanak is not used in godly sense.Infact guru nanak dev ji is saying that shabad that ramchandra is no equal to god.
 

drkhalsa

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Kds JI

YOu have presented very beautiful shabad of kabir ji

But Unfortunatelty its translation very poor and seems uterly wrong to me even or anybody knowing hindi or punjabi

You can try reading it withoutrushing for translation



ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan meh bẖėḏ hai ṯā meh ėk bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So­ī rām sabẖai kaheh so­ī ka­uṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibė māhi bibėk.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anėkeh mil ga­i­ā ėk samānā ėk. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||


It s simply the translator mind playing the confusiong game here


Jatinder Singh
 
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drkhalsa

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Also Dear friend s


Recently I have understood with help of various friend that Though translation of Sahib Saingh is gOOd for beginers but it also becomes major hindrance there after as Prof Sahib Singh ji has not Tranlated the Gurbaniinstead he has interpreted Gurbani

The best way I think is to read Gurbani as its with help of various Language Dictionaries if needed


Jatinder Singh
 

kds1980

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Kds JI

YOu have presented very beautiful shabad of kabir ji

But Unfortunatelty its translation very poor and seems uterly wrong to me even or anybody knowing hindi or punjabi

You can try reading it withoutrushing for translation



ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan meh bẖėḏ hai ṯā meh ėk bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So*ī rām sabẖai kaheh so*ī ka*uṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibė māhi bibėk.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anėkeh mil ga*i*ā ėk samānā ėk. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||


It s simply the translator mind playing the confusiong game here


Jatinder Singh


Dear jatinder singh ji

The translation available on srigranth.org are of Dr.sant singh khalsa and bhai manmohan singh

The first one i posted is of dr.sant singh khalsa

here is the translation of bhai manmohan singh

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1374&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=2&p=0&k=0

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan meh bẖėḏ hai ṯā meh ėk bicẖār.
Kabir! There is a secret in worshipping 'Ram'; Therein lies a point worthy of consideration.


ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
Soī rām sabẖai kaheh soī kauṯakhār. ||190||
The same word, every one uses for Dasrath's son and the same word for the Wondrous Lord.


ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibė māhi bibėk.
Kabir, Him alone call thou 'Ram' who is Omnipresent. We should discriminate between the two while mentioning them.


ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anėkeh mil gaiā ėk samānā ėk. ||191||
One 'Ram', 'the God', is pervading amongst all, while the other Ram Chander is contained in himself alone.

I don't think 2 translators will do same mistake.
 
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Archived_Member_19

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from my view point and limited understanding,

Raam as used in SGGS is representation of Almighty

How can we read Hindu scriptures differently?

how can we have different glasses

anyways...

i am not defending caste system or anything, they have no relevance. However every religion has different concept to approach the pursuit of becoming one with almighty.

so be it.

what ticks me off is show off of half baked understanding and eagerness to show "my way is best"

ofcourse i am human too :)
 

drkhalsa

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Sep 16, 2004
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You can be right KDS JI !

As for me I have rejected the translation thing as final say in understanding the shabd

It some time takes me many days with the tuk in my mind understanding it and in the end I ususally get better understanding,

and one fact is also there that all these translator use the previous translation as guide to their work

I will just point out one thing here


ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan meh bẖėḏ hai ṯā meh ėk bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

My understanding :

Kabir saying Raam Has secret this something need connsideration




ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So*ī rām sabẖai kaheh so*ī ka*uṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||



My understanding:
the same is called RAAM , Same is Woundrous doer


ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibė māhi bibėk.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
Kabir to say Raam as Raam , saying has distinction

( where is the Dasrath thing?!!!)


ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anėkeh mil ga*i*ā ėk samānā ėk. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

my understandig

Only One meet many , one is enshrined in one


Now this is what could do in translation amd NOt Interpretation
what the variious translator has done is Interpretation which includes there own thinking a lot

I think any Sikh looking for guidance does not want to follow others understanding of Gurbani instead they want the words of Guru Directly delievered to them in form of interpretation


well My translation can be wrong for sure but the interpretation done above appears really wrong to me

Thanks

Jatinder Singh
 
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drkhalsa

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Sep 16, 2004
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Quote "Then One more question came up . is this Sajjan is also the guide guiding us back home?"
The real Guide is the true Sabad. This Sajjan becomes the beloved brotherly companion all the way.

Dear Balbir Singh ji

Thanks for post

would it be possible for you elaborate more on the Shabad / guide you mentioned in the response

Thanks

Jatinder Singh
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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Also Dear friend s


Recently I have understood with help of various friend that Though translation of Sahib Saingh is gOOd for beginers but it also becomes major hindrance there after as Prof Sahib Singh ji has not Tranlated the Gurbaniinstead he has interpreted Gurbani

The best way I think is to read Gurbani as its with help of various Language Dictionaries if needed


Jatinder Singh

Dear jatinder singh ji

As far as my little understanding, gurbani is nearly impossible to fully understand.i don't think using dictionary is good because several different languages are used in gurbani
so several dictionaries are needed to translate.also gurbani was written 400 -500 years ago so some of the words used in it are difficuilt to find.

let me give you an example of it


ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥
Kabīr bẖāʼng mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāʼnhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

majority of sikh scholars translated the above word maachhuli as fish but when i was reading article of prinicipal surjit singh i was surprised when he raises doubt about the word maachuuli.he said that maachulli was word used for some type of alchol in braj bhasha.Is he right ? may be but the fact is how many words are like this in gurbani which
which could have more than 1 meaning.

So i think one should concentrate on understanding entire sikh philosophy rather than picking few lines or a debating about a shabad

On pro sahib singh's interpretation i just want to say that it is good for beginners as well as
for middle level persons for understanding gurbani.only advanced level persons who have deep knowledge of gurbani and good knowledge of different languages should try to interpret gurbani themself
 

TGill

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Jul 31, 2007
240
2
Raam naam oh jande jina dargeh likhey sanjoy
bin raame kuch hoye nahin jaano vich vijog
jo raama iss ghar vase soi vase iss log
jis janeya tis janeya bin jane sab rog

:) - My respects to you Khalsa ji for showing the right translations...
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
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INDIA
Jatinder singh ji

i JUST checked interpretation of pro sahib singh of those lines of kabir ji.meaning is what
the english translators have written
 
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