Literal Meaning Of Gurbani

[BhagatSingh]

What about Guru Nanak referring to himself as a simple dhadhi in Gurbani. Should we ignore that? What would be the implications if we took this literally?

Page 148, Line 4
ਖਾਲਕ ਕਉ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਢਾਢੀ ਗਾਵਣਾ ॥खालक कउ आदेसु ढाढी गावणा ॥Kẖālak ka*o āḏės dẖādẖī gāvṇā.I humbly bow to the Creator Lord; I am a minstrel singing His Praises.

Page 150, Line 16
ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਵੇਕਾਰੁ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥हउ ढाढी वेकारु कारै लाइआ ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī vėkār kārai lā*i*ā.I was a minstrel, out of work, when the Lord took me into His service.
Again from Guru Ram Das:

Page 91, Line 14
ਹਰਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸੁਣੀ ਪੂਕਾਰ ਢਾਢੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥हरि अंदरि सुणी पूकार ढाढी मुखि लाइआ ॥Har anḏar suṇī pūkār dẖādẖī mukẖ lā*i*ā.The Lord has heard my sad cries from within; He has called me, His minstrel, into His Presence.

Also:
Page 91, Line 13
ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਦਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥हउ ढाढी हरि प्रभ खसम का हरि कै दरि आइआ ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī har parabẖ kẖasam kā har kai ḏar ā*i*ā.I am a minstrel of the Lord God, my Lord and Master; I have come to the Lord's Door.
Guru Arjan Dev ji also referred to himself in a similar fashion.

ਹਉ ਢਾਢੀ ਦਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਦਾ ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ॥हउ ढाढी दरि गुण गावदा जे हरि प्रभ भावै ॥Ha*o dẖādẖī ḏar guṇ gāvḏā jė har parabẖ bẖāvai.I am a minstrel at His Door, singing His Glorious Praises, to please to my Lord God.
Also Guru Gobind Singh explicitly saying those who consider him God will go to hell in Bachitar Natak.

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥जो हम को परमेसर उचरि हैं ॥ ते सभ नरकि कुंड महि परिहैं ॥
Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.

DG pg 137

We should consider the context of the following too:



ਕਹਾ ਲਗੈ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਟ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਤੋਰਿ ਤੁਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨੈ ॥कहा लगै इहु कीट बखानै ॥ महिमा तोरि तुही प्रभ जानै ॥
Upto what limit this insect can depict (Thy Praises)? Thou mayst Thyself improve Thy Greatness.

ਪਿਤਾ ਜਨਮ ਜਿਮ ਪੂਤ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਭੇਦ ਬਤਾਵੈ ॥੪॥पिता जनम जिम पूत न पावै ॥ कहा तवन का भेद बतावै ॥४॥
Just as the son cannot say anything about the birth of his father, then how can one unfold Thy mystery.4.

ਤੁਮਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਤੁਮੈ ਬਿਨ ਆਈ ॥ ਅਉਰਨ ਤੇ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤ ਬਤਾਈ ॥तुमरी प्रभा तुमै बिन आई ॥ अउरन ते नही जात बताई ॥
Thy Greatness is Only Thine, it cannot be described by others.

DG pg 133

The above quote by Guru Gobind Singh relay a relationship between God and Guru. They are two different things. The quote below iillustrates Guru Gobind's belief that Gurus fully merged back into the lord after their earthly existence.. Again a difference between God and Guru is implied.

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਮਿਲ ਗਏ ॥ ਗੁਰਤਾ ਦੇਤ ਅਰਜਨਿਹ ਭਏ ॥रामदास हरि सो मिल गए ॥ गुरता देत अरजनिह भए ॥
When Ramdas merged in the Lord, the Guruship was bestowed upon Arjan.

DG pg 130


The quote beloiw related to Guru Tegh Bahadur's sacrifice. Note the use of the terms prabh logan (God folk). He never refers to the ninth Guru as God.

ਨਾਟਕ ਚੇਟਕ ਕੀਏ ਕੁਕਾਜਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਲੋਗਨ ਕਹ ਆਵਤ ਲਾਜਾ ॥੧੪॥नाटक चेटक कीए कुकाजा ॥ प्रभ लोगन कह आवत लाजा ॥१४॥
The saints of the Lord abhor the performance of miracles and malpractices. 14.


The above seems to fly in the face of arguments that the Gurus are to be considered God like is being suggested by some.

Are difficulties people are having with finding deeper meaning in Gurbani making them take the easy route (i.e. literal interpretations). What should we conclude from this?

Noone can beat that! Good job Singh.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Do you understand what metaphors are? Do you agree the Guru's used metaphor's? If the the Guru's used metaphor's how then can things be taken literally?

is ever word of gurbani metaphor? is none to be taken literally? how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion). is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?

just curious. i've never understood how people decide what they want to believe and what they want to throw out the window as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation".

 

[Archived_Member1]

I am new to Sikhi and it seems from the largest percentage of posts on this topic that most of the people (at least on this board) believe that Guru IS God and that there is no difference. That says to me that Sikhs actually DO believe that Guru Nanak was God incarnate. Which logically would prove that Sikhs (at least some Sikhs) actually DO worship the Guru as God. In which case, new people coming in who ask this question should be told the truth about it. When I first came in I asked if Sikhs worship Guru and see Guru as God and was told no, they do not. Now I'm thinking, but they DO.

So my suggestion is that when new people come in asking if you worship Guru as God and believe there is no difference between Guru and God, you should tell them yes. You believe Guru IS God. In which case the general perception that Sikhi is the most pure monotheism might not actually be accurate.

I mean no disrespect, so I apologize if anyone is offended by this.

people understand gurbani as per their own personal developmental level. Sukhmani Sahib discusses the levels of understanding one can achieve... plus it's a beautiful read. i recommend it.

look at it this way... if sikhi were an education (which it is, in a way), then you can imagine that those of us in elementary school understand things very differently than those in university. think about it... if you give a class full of young children a book to read and then ask them what they think it means... how will they respond? all in different ways, probably.
so of course you will see a lot of variance in opinions, especially on issues people think are important or controversial.

as we grow as sikhs, we will understand the Guru's words more and more, we'll see the deeper levels, we'll get the subtle essence that we may miss as children.

the trick is not to be led astray by people who claim to be post-graduates when in reality they're high school dropouts looking to pad their egos.

so read it for yourself, think about it in your heart, and see what it feels like to you.
don't worry too much about what others say it means, or what the "majority" thinks. worry about what YOU feel.

 

[Sikh80]

I am new to Sikhi and it seems from the largest percentage of posts on this topic that most of the people (at least on this board) believe that Guru IS God and that there is no difference. That says to me that Sikhs actually DO believe that Guru Nanak was God incarnate. Which logically would prove that Sikhs (at least some Sikhs) actually DO worship the Guru as God. In which case, new people coming in who ask this question should be told the truth about it. When I first came in I asked if Sikhs worship Guru and see Guru as God and was told no, they do not. Now I'm thinking, but they DO.

I mean no disrespect, so I apologize if anyone is offended by this.

Dear carol ji,

I shall answer few of your doubts:

1. Sikhs believe in single God.
2. Sikhism is against the very concept of Incarnation of GOD.
3. Sikhs always worship the One, Akaal Purukh.
4. Few may have strong love for Gurus for various reasons.
5. HE is the Guru Of All.

Kindly interpret the Mool Mantra your self and many things would be clear to you yourself. One of the important things that I have learnt here is to believe as to what you think is correct. Be guided by your interpretation of the things.

In case of doubt, please start a thread. Many would love to answer you. Pk70 ji has stated the things with clarity. You may try to have someone who can discuss things with you in more explicit manner as it is not possible to state on this forum all that one likes.

I really wish to help you out the way I was helped by many ever since I joined this forum.

 

[Sikh80]

is ever word of gurbani metaphor? is none to be taken literally? how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion). is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?

I am also very new to sikhi.

I have very many reasons to believe that what Mr. Randip has stated/meant looks to be correct. It is true if one reads Gurmukhi script.

One can ,with experience/practice, come to know as to which line requires to be treated as to mean the things in literal form and which would require slight alignment in the meaning.

There is nothing wrong in this and Mr. Randip has stated is based on this kind of justification.

 

[BhagatSingh]

is ever word of gurbani metaphor? is none to be taken literally? how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion). is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?

just curious. i've never understood how people decide what they want to believe and what they want to throw out the window as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation".

The key is to not take anything out of conext and to look at everything as a whole. That usually helps with the metaphor thing.

What do you mean throw out the window as metaphor? Nonsense.

Gurbani is poetry, if you throw out the metaphors, you have nothing left.

 

[Archived_Member1]

The key is to not take anything out of conext and to look at everything as a whole. That usually helps with the metaphor thing.

What do you mean throw out the window as metaphor? Nonsense.

Gurbani is poetry, if you throw out the metaphors, you have nothing left.

i agree that we must look at gurbani in context. reading the full shabad is always key. however, i believe that we are all at different spiritual levels, so what may make sense literally for one person may make more sense as metaphor for another. and it may make sense as a totally different metaphor to yet another person.

as you said, gurbani is poetry. and as with all poetry, i believe that there is no single "right" way to interpret it.

 

[BhagatSingh]

i agree that we must look at gurbani in context. reading the full shabad is always key. however, i believe that we are all at different spiritual levels, so what may make sense literally for one person may make more sense as metaphor for another. and it may make sense as a totally different metaphor to yet another person.

as you said, gurbani is poetry. and as with all poetry, i believe that there is no single "right" way to interpret it.

Yes I did.:}{}{}: Agreed.

 

[carolineislands]

So many wonderful replies and comments! Thank you sp70, Dalsingh, Jasleen, et al -- Your posts and references confirm my thinking in many ways. I can already see the SGGS is so full of wisdom and beauty that I could read it all day every day for the rest of my life and still not understand it all. It reminds me of the part where Nanak is saying that even if he lived millions of years without sleeping or eating just trying to comprehend the value of God, he would never be able to describe the Greatness of God's Name! Only by the Grace of the Guru, can we ever even begin to know God -- right?

I don't think that we can know God unless God decides to gift us with that understanding. I don't think that any amount of fancy thinking is going to allow us to even get close to knowing God. I think that the only way any of us can ever know God, the wonderful, unfathomable Lord -- is if he decides to open our understanding. And, personally, I don't think that is likely to happen without humility.

That's for me, anyhow... my understanding.

I do especially appreciate your comments, sp70. This issue is very important to me because I honestly don't think I could ever fully embrace a belief system that espoused that human beings were on the same level with God. And so this is a really important topic for me.

Thanks all... It's 1am here in Kansas so I'm signing off for the night !

PS: My harmonium arrived yesterday!!! I love it! (sorry that's off topic but I'm so excited I had to tell!).

 

[carolineislands]

ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਪਗੁ ਧਾਰੇ ॥੫॥
houmai maar milae pag dhhaarae ||5||
Subduing ego, one meets the Lord, and places his feet on the Path. ||5||​

.

 

[Randip Singh]

is ever word of gurbani metaphor? is none to be taken literally? how do unlearned people like me find the difference (in your opinion). is there some hint or secret password that says, "ok, this part is literal, but that other part over there... that's metaphor"?
just curious. i've never understood how people decide what they want to believe and what they want to throw out the window as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation".

What you have stated is the 64 million dollar question. What constitutes a metaphor and what is to be taken literally.

A way of training ones mind into what is a metaphor in Bani are Bhai Gurdas's Vars eg:​

Just as one has to tie pail`s neck while taking out water​

,​

Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed​

Just as to get Kasturi from deer`s neck, deer is to be killed
Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed
To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken
Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.​

​

Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13​

​

Bhai Gurdas's Vars are called the key for a reason to Bani. They trains one's mind into the metaphor mindset.

Guru Nanak had many conversation's with Sufi's and Saints and their method of communication was metaphor too. Eg "Tie two Birds together even they have four wings they cannot fly" (Jalaludin Rumi) . PS I am not saying Guru Nanak met Rumi..

Lets analyse a Tukh from Bani:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji​

mehlaa 1.​

​

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.​

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.​

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!​

​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

​

Now does cane have feet? Does it groan?

On one level this is an illustration and reminder that a plant like a cane is a breathing, living thing. On another level the cane is a metaphor. Read it and see what you think. Is it a metaphor for how good people are treated?

In my mind in order to understand Bani, one must understand 1) History (eg ivasion of Babur)of the times it was written. 2) The Sociological (eg Caste system) context in which it was written and 3) The Economic (eg Zamindari System) climate in which it was written.

The problem of literality lies not only in the fact that Bani is written in metaphor but also that many do not understand the context it was written. Although the message is Universal all of the above helps.

In essence what I am saying is being a Sikh means learning and understanding what is or not a metaphor is part of this process.​

 

[Sardara123]

Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:

( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):

hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]
hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]
lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]
gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]

I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.
I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.
Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.
English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax

In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all, 'no second love'( no duality).

We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God and Dear Guru as two seperate Entities- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.



WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.
SECOND LOVE - DUALITY- DUJA BHAO.


REASON OF THIS POST IS- THIS IS THE ISSUE -"'GURU IS GOD'-no difference" CAUSING ALL THESE QUESTIONS.

my two cents.

This Morning, I decided to visit SPN, one last time before leaving for my long trip. Found the same discussions on the topic of- 'God and Guru' are two seperate things- No they are not. There is ONE AND ONLY ONE.

Me murakh understand:

We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God and Dear Guru as seperate Entities- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.

WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.

'MORE THAN ONE LOVE' OR 'DUALITY' OR 'SECOND LOVE' OR 'LOVE OF MAYA' ie
'DOOJA BHAO' IS NOT ALLOWED BY GURU JI.

English Translation:

Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within.
You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind. ||1||
Listen, O my mind: hurry to the Protection of the Guru's Sanctuary.
By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean of poison. ||1||Pause||
Everything under the influence of the three qualities shall perish; the love of duality is corrupting.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read the scriptures, but they are trapped in the bondage of emotional attachment. In love with evil, they do not understand.
Meeting the Guru, the bondage of the three qualities is cut away, and in the fourth state, the Door of Liberation is attained. ||2||
Through the Guru, the Path is found, and the darkness of emotional attachment is dispelled.
If one dies through the Shabad, then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.
By Guru's Grace, one remains blended with the True Name of the Creator. ||3||
This mind is very powerful; we cannot escape it just by trying.
In the love of duality, people suffer in pain, condemned to terrible punishment.
O Nanak, those who are attached to the Naam are saved; through the Shabad, their ego is banished. ||4||18||51||
English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax

Punjabi Translation:
ArQ:- hy myry mn! (myrI g`l) sux, siqgurU dI srn pau [ (mwieAw dy pRBwv qoN) gurU dI ikrpw nwl hI bcIdw hY, ieh zhr-(BirAw) sMswr-smuMdr gurU dy Sbd dI rwhIN (hI) qr skIdw hY [1[rhwau[
mnu`K srIr nUµ (Bwv, igAwn-ieMidRAW nUµ) Awpxy v`s ivc r`Kx dy jqn krdw hY, pu`Tw ltk ky qp krdw hY, (pr ies qrHW) AMdroN haumY dUr nhIN huMdI [ jy mnu`K Awqmk au~nqI sMbMDI (Ajyhy im`Qy hoey Dwrimk) kMm krdw rhy, qW kdy BI auh prmwqmw dw nwm pRwpq nhIN kr skdw [ jyhVw mnu`K gurU dy Sbd dI shYqw nwl dunIAw dI ikrq-kwr krdw hoieAw hI ivkwrW vloN bcdw hY, aus dy mn ivc pRBU dw nwm Aw v`sdw hY [1[
iqMn guxW dy ADIn rih ky kMm krny—ieh swrw mwieAw dw hI pRBwv hY, qy mwieAw dw ipAwr (mn ivc) ivkwr (hI) pYdw krdw hY [ mwieAw dy bMDnW ivc mwieAw dy moh dw b`Jw hoieAw pMifq (Drm-pusqk) pVHdw hY, pr mwieAw dy ipAwr ivc (PisAw rihx krky auh jIvn dw shI rsqw) nhIN smJ skdw [ jy siqgurU iml pey qW (mwieAw-moh dy kwrn pYdw hoeI AMdrlI) iK`J dUr ho jWdI hY, mwieAw dy iqMn guxW qoN auqly Awqmk drjy ivc (phuMicAW) (mwieAw dy moh qoN) ^lwsI dw drvwzw l`B pYNdw hY [2[
gurU pwsoN jIvn dw shI rsqw l`B pYNdw hY (mn ivcoN) moh (dw) hnyrw dUr ho jWdw hY [ jy mnu`K gurU dy Sbd ivc juV ky mwieAw dy moh vloN mr jwey qW (sMswr-smuMdr ivc fu`bxoN) bc jWdw hY, qy ivkwrW qoN ^lwsI dw drvwzw l`B lYNdw hY [ gurU dI ikrpw nwl hI mnu`K (pRBU-crnW ivc) juiVAw rih skdw hY, qy pRBU dw sdw-iQr nwm pRwpq kr skdw hY [3[
(nhIN qW) ieh mn (qW) bVw blvwn hY (gurU dI srn qoN ibnw hor) iksy BI hIly nwl ieh (kurwhy pwxoN) C`fdw nhIN [ mwieAw dy ipAwr ivc Psw ky (mnu`K nUµ) du`K cMboV dyNdw hY, qy bVI szw dyNdw hY [
hy nwnk! jyhVy mnu`K gurU dy Sbd dI rwhIN haumY dUr kr ky prmwqmw dy nwm ivc juVdy hn auh (ies dy pMjy qoN) bcdy hn [4[18[51[
source: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0033.html

Guru Shabad:
isrIrwgu mhlw 3 ]
kWieAw swDY aurD qpu krY ivchu haumY n jwie ]
AiDAwqm krm jy kry nwmu n kb hI pwie ]
gur kY sbid jIvqu mrY hir nwmu vsY min Awie ]1]
suix mn myry Bju sqgur srxw ]
gur prswdI CutIAY ibKu Bvjlu sbid gur qrxw ]1] rhwau ]
qRY gux sBw Dwqu hY dUjw Bwau ivkwru ]
pMifqu pVY bMDn moh bwDw nh bUJY ibiKAw ipAwir ]
sqguir imilAY iqRkutI CUtY cauQY pid mukiq duAwru ]2]
gur qy mwrgu pweIAY cUkY mohu gubwru ]
sbid mrY qw auDrY pwey moK duAwru ]
gur prswdI imil rhY scu nwmu krqwru ]3]
iehu mnUAw Aiq sbl hY Cfy n ikqY aupwie ]
dUjY Bwie duKu lwiedw bhuqI dyie sjwie ]
nwnk nwim lgy sy aubry haumY sbid gvwie ]4]18]51]

 

[Pyramid]

Sardara,

Believe me now get ready for the lesson on -

Duja bhao is a metaphor- Sardara dont know anything. Just joking . My daughter-in-law is telling me- 'Bapu Ji, stop posting on SPN, People are going to start telling you- Burra bahattar Gaya(Old man gone crazy, he is over 72). He doesn't know anything'.

Anyways back to topic:

Bhai Gurdas Ji's composition is excellent. Somethings are hard to digest for some, due to a big cultural difference. Time changes fast. I have always experienced that one need to have a very healthy digestive track to swallow down his compositions. If one pass that test, it is very easy to understand Gurbani. That's why it is called- Key to Gurbani :}{}{}:. (please dont take it that I am saying- One need to learn his composition first>>>> That was my mataphor only.)

Tuhada Das
Yograj

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:



In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all, 'no second love'( no duality).

We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God and Dear Guru as two seperate Entities- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.



WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.
SECOND LOVE - DUALITY- DUJA BHAO.


REASON OF THIS POST IS- THIS IS THE ISSUE -"'GURU IS GOD'-no difference" CAUSING ALL THESE QUESTIONS.

my two cents.

Point 1

You must show the English translations are accurate.

Point 2

You must show that the word Guru is being used to describe God in this context and not a physical Guru. There are many instance in Bani where God is refered to as Guru. Therefore God can be a Teacher (i.e. Guru), but a Teacher is not necessarily God.

 

[Sardara123]

Point 1

You must show the English translations are accurate.

Point 2

You must show that the word Guru is being used to describe God in this context and not a physical Guru. There are many instance in Bani where God is refered to as Guru. Therefore God can be a Teacher (i.e. Guru), but a Teacher is not necessarily God.

Point 1-

Those are provided for non punjabi readers. To me as much justice one can do while doing a translation- Translator has done it.

I have provided the Punjabi exact version. So you can get it translated from others as well. I am not concerned, I am talking after understanding it in from my MENTAL LANGUAGE.

Point 2- IN SIKHI THERE IS NO PHYSICAL GURU- PHYSICAL IS TRIGUN- MAYA. MAYA DA PYAAR- DUJA BHAO.

Thankyou for making it clear that Guru is some Physical entity for you. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou

Thanks.

 

[Sardara123]

Sardara,

Believe me now get ready for the lesson on -

Duja bhao is a metaphor- Sardara dont know anything. Just joking . My daughter-in-law is telling me- 'Bapu Ji, stop posting on SPN, People are going to start telling you- Burra bahattar Gaya(Old man gone crazy, he is over 72). He doesn't know anything'.

Anyways back to topic:

Bhai Gurdas Ji's composition is excellent. Somethings are hard to digest for some, due to a big cultural difference. Time changes fast. I have always experienced that one need to have a very healthy digestive track to swallow down his compositions. If one pass that test, it is very easy to understand Gurbani. That's why it is called- Key to Gurbani :}{}{}:. (please dont take it that I am saying- One need to learn his composition first>>>> That was my mataphor only.)

Tuhada Das
Yograj

You are making me laugh.

Any lesson is Good for me. Guru is teaching in HIS WAY. I know my post will be a piece of joke for many. Everytime it happens, it brings out many good points. I have learned so much reading all that. I want it, that's why I Share. All these points make me ask questions to Guru Ji and He answers. There is nothing that Guru doesn't answer. Infact, being laughed at or being abused always make it easy to get my doubts clear:}{}{}:.

Thanks

 

[Randip Singh]

Point 1-

Those are provided for non punjabi readers. To me as much justice one can do while doing a translation- Translator has done it.

I have provided the Punjabi exact version. So you can get it translated from others as well. I am not concerned, I am talking after understanding it in from my MENTAL LANGUAGE.

Point 2- IN SIKHI THERE IS NO PHYSICAL GURU- PHYSICAL IS TRIGUN- MAYA. MAYA DA PYAAR- DUJA BHAO.

Thankyou for making it clear that Guru is some Physical entity for you. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou

Thanks.

I think we are talking at cross puposes.

On Point 1

I cannot see or view your Punjabi translation and there is no link. Infact the translation is from Sikh to the Max from contributors. Before posting here I suggest you verifiy your sorces.

Pont 2

Do not try to insinuate what I have said or not said without reading the entire debate.

Guru is not a physical entity for me . Guru can mean God. Guru can mean physical person. In Bani Guru is described as aboat, a shrine etc etc.

Example page 17 SGGSji

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Siree Raag, First Mehl:

.
The virtuous wife exudes virtue; the unvirtuous suffer in misery.

If you long for your Husband Lord, O soul-bride, you must know that He is not met by falsehood.

No boat or raft can take you to Him. Your Husband Lord is far away. ||1||

My Lord and Master is Perfect; His Throne is Eternal and Immovable.

One who attains perfection as Gurmukh, obtains the Immeasurable True Lord. ||1||Pause||

The Palace of the Lord God is beautiful. Within it are flawless diamonds,

gems, rubies and pearls. A fortress of gold surrounds this Source of Nectar.

How can I climb up to the Fortress without a ladder? By meditating on the Lord, through the Guru, I am blessed and exalted. ||2||

The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord's Name.

The Guru is the Boat to carry me across the world-ocean; the Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Holy River.

If it pleases Him, I bathe in the Pool of Truth, and become radiant and pure. ||3||

He looks so Beautiful in His Perfect Place. He fulfills the hopes of the hopeless.

O Nanak, if one obtains the Perfect Lord, how can his virtues decrease? ||4||9||

As I have stated time and time again, a point that seems to have eluded you, the word Guru must be read in context.

 

[Sardara123]

Guru is All - for this moorakh, Randip Ji.
All is God.

Guru has told me that and I believe it.
I am sorry that I said any thing to you. You can disscuss it with yourself and others about it as long as you want.

No body can match GURU WORD. Bhai Gurdas is just an interpretation of Guru Word, same as SikhiToTheMax is.

GURU WORD IS WRITTEN IN HEART, LOVE IS THE LANGUAGE- ONE LOVE.

GOOD LUCK.

 

[Randip Singh]

Guru is All - for this moorakh, Randip Ji.
All is God.

Guru has told me that and I believe it.
I am sorry that I said any thing to you. You can disscuss it with yourself and others about it as long as you want.

No body can match GURU WORD. Bhai Gurdas is just an interpretation of Guru Word, same as SikhiToTheMax is.

GURU WORD IS WRITTEN IN HEART, LOVE IS THE LANGUAGE- ONE LOVE.

GOOD LUCK.

So somebody like Guru Nanak is God for you? Is that what you are saying?

PS some pointers for you in order to avoid a confused debate:

1) Stick to posting on one thread.

2) Get verifiable translations.

3) Post linkts to the translations so we can verify.

4) Don't make perosonal remarks on insinuations.

5) Try and write precisely and concisely in English your points.

Thanks

 

[Sardara123]

So somebody like Guru Nanak is God for you? Is that what you are saying?

PS some pointers for you in order to avoid a confused debate:

1) Stick to posting on one thread.

2) Get verifiable translations.

3) Post linkts to the translations so we can verify.

4) Don't make perosonal remarks on insinuations.

5) Try and write precisely and concisely in English your points.

Thanks

Guru Nanak is NOT SOMEBODY.

HE IS JOT.

Thanks for clarifying that Guru Nanak is- somebody for you.

I am not debating on translations, I am sharing. And I have mentioned the source as well, please check.



SIKHS dont debate GURU SHABAD. THEY SHARE.

thanks and

GOOD LUCK FOR DEBATES