Mealtime Prayer/Palki Sahib Alternatives?

[Tejwant Singh]

Dal Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

dalsingh1zero1;186964]Tejwant ji, I think we differ on our whole perspective of exploring and interpreting our heritage to the extent that we will probably never agree on certain things. Take that as given.

It is possible and there is nothing ill about it as long as we do not contradict the Gurmat values given to us in the SGGS, our only Guru.

Disagreements are parts of the learning process. That is why our Gurus named us Sikhs. I do not find anything wrong with it but rather some thing invigorating to learn from them,

I think we are both old and experienced enough to know where this almost invariably leads. Arguing for the sake of arguing.

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. If you are then it is your own choice. I am discussing the matter in order to learn through it even if there are disagreements.

You talk of my own speculation. I suggest that given our limited human intellectual capacities, most of what we do when we try and explore the faith in any real depth becomes this.

For me Sikhi is not a faith. Not even a religion laced with dogmas. SGGS shows us that all over. In fact you may be interested in reading Why Religion? which is posted here.

Faith when used for religions is absence or lack of truth. Sikhi is to the contrary. It is meant for the truth seekers. Therefore, blind faiths which normally religions are called can not be explored but to the contrary.

I'm never going to try and throw the stance of being any sort of authority and I'm certainly wary of those who claim some sort of superior knowledge.

The SGGS, our only Guru is the mine of knowledge and the ultimate authority. No one can claim what you claim above provided he/she accepts SGGS as their only Guru.

What I do endeavor to do, is to explore the faith and make sense of it, as honestly as I can (to myself - not the world).

As mentioned above, Sikhi has nothing to do with any faith which requires blind, mechanical rituals (pilgrimage to Hemkunt for example which has nothing to do with the Gurmat values given in the SGGS.)

Occasionally it is nice to share perceptions with others, but in our community this frequently becomes a 'theological kabbadi match' which defeats the whole purpose and just degrades everyone involved.

Pardon my ignorance. Please elaborate the above with concrete examples because I have no idea what you are talking about and based on what kind of presumed notions.

It's not double speak. It is simply a case of my own conception of the matter. I personally do not feel this particular use of the word 'enemy' refers to the 'panj chors'. And you are right it is speculation, but then so is the opposite view that it does refer to the 5 thieves.

Let's agree to disagree. I do not find any harm in it.

All that being said, my own experience has taught me that inflexibility on a position is foolishness, and understandings can change over time.
That is why I do not totally discount the above possibility although I do not subscribe to it. Development is a continual process and DOES involve changing ones thoughts on various matters over time. That is whole point of development in my eyes - it's really not too complicated. Seen in this way, there should be no confusion.

That is the exact essence of being a Sikh.

And you are on dangerous grounds when you discount hordes of other people and start to feel you are some custodian of 'the truth' and they misled fools.

Wow! That is a bold statement. Should I take this a threat of some kind?

The above is nothing but your imagination. Only SGGS, our only Guru is the custodian of truth. I thought you knew that.

It's something we must all fight. It's just another manifestation of haumai that keeps cropping up when people try to find the truth (in my opinion). This journey of trying to find the truth appears to be a unique one for each of us.

I totally agree with that. It is the journey of the individual and each of us carry our own Gurmat torch. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone we are at. Neither myself, nor yourself or anyone else can find that out no matter how much one pretends to claim to know.

Do you honestly believe you speculate any less than another seeker?

I only take my guidance from SGGS. No other book or person. Please be factual when you claim something about others.

But for this thread, I think the matter regarding meal time prayers has been nailed. There are no hard and fast rules, and people are free to use what resonates with them as it is not a prescribed act - unless we consider the Amrit vela banis are precursors to breakfast and Rehraas to the evening meal.

There seems to be a contradiction in the above. Either something is nailed in a specific manner or there are no hard and fast rules. It can not be both. So which is it?

I hope this clarifies my own position to some extent. And it is my own, I'm not expecting/ forcing others to subscribe to it. And just so people know, it isn't based solely on other people's opinions but my own research, which I've tried to conduct as honestly as I can looking at a wide breadth of opinions on the matter before forming my personal opinion and most crucially, trying to read and experience the texts under scrutiny themselves.

I totally agree with that too because as mentioned before and is worth repeating that Sikhi is the journey of the individual and it is up to the individual Sikh to carve the path based on the Gurmat values.

Oh yeah, a final point, life is a mystical experience for me - that's how I subjectively experience it (and I know many don't) - so it shouldn't be surprise that I see a significant amount of grey inbetween the black and white. It's the questions that pertain to this grey area that are most interesting to me and the most difficult to answer conclusively - I guess it boils down to that plain, old fashioned thing called 'faith' in the end.

As a Sikh one can only talk about oneself because it is one's own journey. It is a bit presumptuous to talk about others and then mention haumei under the same breath in my opinion.

Interesting interaction I must add.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[dalsingh1zero1]

I only take my guidance from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. No other book or person. Please be factual when you claim something about others.

And even in this we all conjecture. If we didn't we wouldn't have umpteen slightly different translations/interpretations of Shri Guru Granth Sahib, so the idea that we interact with our Guru and do not make at least some conjectural projections based on trying to decipher meaning (arth) isn't true. You claim you do not use other people as intermediates, but how many people use works by people like Prof. Sahib Singh to help draw their semantic conclusions on meaning? If you truly do not refer to anything outside of of SGGS ji to guide you, fair enough, you must be either divinely blessed or of an abnormally high intelligence to decipher the text without outside help.

That being said, the fact that Guru Gobind (prior to becoming Singh) personally patronised and encouraged a very large number of poets (read intellectuals of that time), to explore and even translate into common vernacular a large amount of nonSikh texts (including Hindu religious texts) shouldn't be lost on you.

I can understand why you say that Shri Guru Granth Sahib is the sole source of your guidance, but personally I wouldn't be dismissive of our (admittedly scattered) historical heritage and analysing that to find valuable lessons to guide us. Surely SGGS ji is our spiritual guide, but that doesn't make other texts from the Sikh literary corpus invaluable as sources of information that can guide us. I mean, I'm not Amritdhari, but someone having an interest in Khalsa/Sikh history post 1699 would be compelled to study and analyse other texts (like rehat namas and other manuscripts) to get a wider understanding of important/relevant things.

There seems to be a contradiction in the above. Either something is nailed in a specific manner or there are no hard and fast rules. It can not be both. So which is it?

I thought my point was pretty self explanatory. It was nailed in the sense that it became apparent (or so it seemed to me?) that no specific pre-meal prayer was/has been prescribed for Sikhs. Simple. So we have a choice i.e. there are no hard and fast rules.

 

[esieffe]

Hiya Justin.

I had this very conversation with my nephew as we sat to eat earlier today and we decided on the following to recite just prior to eating together. It is from the beginning of Chaupai Sahib attributed to Guru Gobind Singh.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about what to recite just prior to every meal. Find what resonates with you or/and your close ones.

The translation is broadly my own (with the help of various Internet versions, so it is not infallible - I've gone for a literal approach based on my understanding of the meaning of individual words.


ਹਮਰੀ ਕਰੋ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਰੱਛਾ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਇ ਚਿਤ ਕੀ ਇੱਛਾ ॥

Protect me with your hand, and let me fulfill my desire


ਤਵ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਨ ਰਹੈ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰਾ ॥1

that my mind remain at your feet. Sustain my life.


ਹਮਰੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਸਭੈ ਤੁਮ ਘਾਵਹੁ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਚਾਵਹੁ ॥

Destroy all of my enemies and save me with your own hand.


ਸੁਖੀ ਬਸੈ ਮੋਰੋ ਪਰਿਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿਖਯ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰਾ ॥2॥

Let all of my family, servants and Sikhs reside in peace O creator.

Sat Shri Akal

Hi Everyone! I downloaded a Sikh Holy text for my phone and there is some English, but I cannot find an index in English. I would love a source for prayers that includes and English index for a variety of prayers. It can be in any form printed or otherwise. I prefer books really. It is a joy to be with you all.
Eric eacesignkaur:

 

[aristotle]

Sat Shri Akal
Hi Everyone! I downloaded a Sikh Holy text for my
phone and there is some English, but I cannot find an
index in English. I would love a source for prayers that
includes and English index for a variety of prayers. It
can be in any form printed or otherwise. I prefer books
really. It is a joy to be with you all.
Eric

Which operating system does your mobile device use??

For Android, the Gurbani apps I am using are:
*Sunder Gutka- A variety of Banis in Gurmukhi and Roman script. Beautiful interface and easy to use, but sans any translations.
*Dhur Ki Bani- The whole text of Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj with English translation(by Dr. Sant Singh) and transliteration. Handy search and bookmark features. An index of Nitnem Banis in English.
*Gurbani Nirvaan- Download features for Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj and Vaars of Bhai Gurdas. Easy navigation, English translation alongwith English and Hindi transliteration.

There are numerous other applications as well available on tge Google store, and most of them are free of cost.

 

[Ishna]

Oh yes, Dhur Ki Bani is my favourite. <3

Many hours spent on the train reading page after page of Dhan Dhan sweet Guruji Maharaaj.

iSearch Gurbani also has a good app.

Eric ji when it comes to prayer in Sikhi there really isn't anything like a 'variety of prayers' if you're wondering about prayers for different topics. All of Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a prayer. Life is a prayer.

You can also read up about ardaas which is a kind of prayer in Sikhi. I find this to be a very good introduction: http://www.wahegurunet.com/ardaas

 

[findingmyway]

A reading in context is required. And before I continue I'll just say that I know a lot of members and/or admin here probably don't believe any of the contents of the Dasam Granth to come from Guru Gobind Singh, which is their own prerogative.

When you read the lines in context of Guru Gobind Singh ji's life, where he faced a violent and extremely narrow minded opponent to his faith and community, who happened to be one of the most powerful men in the world at the time (Aurengzaab), it makes perfect sense. Especially given the fact (as I'm sure you perfectly know) that Auranga had Guru ji's father
executed and was issuing orders to flatten mandirs and Gurdwaras in his kingdom. So a real and genuine threat existed to Sikhs and himself.

The principle of sarbat dha bhalla has never meant laying prostate in the face of evil in my understanding of Sikhi?

Guru Gobind Singh ji took on the most powerful tyrant of his times, who controlled a massive military force which greatly outnumbered his own fighters. He took up the challenge and wasn't shy of personally fighting himself, unlike today's western leaders who exaggerate threats, start dubious wars and are nowhere near any bloodshed themselves. Who usually pamper and shelter their own children whilst sending others to die or get their legs blown off, unlike our spiritual father who watched his own older sons die fighting before him.

I'm digressing. To me the prayer for protection and the destruction of 'enemies' is simple to understand in this context. Going further, we can relate the prayer to many of lives battles. I don't know where you are, but a lot of people still do live with a lot of malicious people around them. And whilst most of us have our flaws, there are certain people out there who go that extra mile with their evil intent. I mean just look at what happens to Sikh girls in the UK for instance.

The prayer seems logical to me. Maybe you're having too much time away from action and can't relate?

The whole concept doesn't fit in with Guru ji's teachings or actions. Despite the brutality of the time, Guru ji did not consider anyone an enemy as Gurbani teaches us compassion and to educate/reform rather than seek revenge. The wars fought were in self defence. The soldiers of the other side were also looked after when wounded so how can you pray to destroy enemies in one breath while tending to the wounded? Guru ji abhorred the acts, not the people!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The whole concept doesn't fit in with Guru ji's teachings or actions. Despite the brutality of the time, Guru ji did not consider anyone an enemy as Gurbani teaches us compassion and to educate/reform rather than seek revenge. The wars fought were in self defence. The soldiers of the other side were also looked after when wounded so how can you pray to destroy enemies in one breath while tending to the wounded? Guru ji abhorred the acts, not the people!

Findingmywayji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said.

I totally agree with you and the more appalling part is that some people ask others to chant this Chaupai for seeking protection to "DESTROY our ENEMIES" before relishing the food on the table. Nice appetizer to enjoy the meal I must say. This is the stark example how parroting without any Sikhi thought process has become our mode de vie. The worst part out of all this is that no one knows who wrote this very chaupai that goes against the Gurmat values given to us in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

We,the seekers of Nirbhau, Nirvair have thrown out the true Gurbani concept of "Gaviei, sunhiei, Mann Rakhiei bhao" and embraced the tridents of Hinduism with which we knock at the doors of our "ENEMIES",destroy them before enjoying our meals with our family which may include our little children who look upon us for guidance.

Regards

Tejwant Singh