Sat Sri Akaal Ji.
Balbir Ji, i am enjoying this! Please continue this wonderful discussion!
And, i don't see anyone else getting involved in this discussion deeply. I think they should! Sikhphilosophy, knock knock!
Here is another line from Gurbani, which uses the word 'Asthaan', but not as a place.
"Naam Bhagat Kai Sukh Asthaan".
which means
"The Naam is the home of joy for His Bhagats".
See, how 'Naam' is refered to as an 'asthaan', symbolically. But Naam is not an 'asthaan', isn't it? So, 'asthaan' word is quite generic. It is not always used for a physical place in space. It is used to refer to non-material things too, such as 'Naam' or 'Sahaj Avastha' (ooch asthaan, as a state). The word 'asthaan' is used in so many ways in Gurbani. Study more lines from Gurbani containing this word, to improve understanding. Hope this helps.
Gurbani is for people from all walks of life. From novices to advanced minds, all interpret Gurbani the way they want. There are as many interpretations as there are minds! I would simply say that Guruji is talking about Union with God, about the drop merging with the ocean and becoming the ocean and in that context the state (don't take it literally as place) realized would be the highest, 'a drop becoming the infinite ocean'.
'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan' is such a simple line from Gurbani. It simply means that 'Such a person gets out of the cycle of birth and death'. 'Birth' is 'Aavan' and 'Death' is 'Jaan'! I am surprised seeing you misinterpret this! Let's do one thing, let's start a new thread and try to get the opinion of others in the Sangat, just on this line from Gurbani. Let's see the response. Perhaps, that will make you think again.
Gurbani is trying to help us to realize the state of Union with God, which is the highest state. Once One reaches that state, One does not come back into the cycle of birth and death. So, simple to understand! I wonder why you are creating worldly interpretations out of it. Please see the context in which Guruji is talking. Please read the entire Ashtpadee. Meditate on it!
Refer to your interpretation of 'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan'. You say that Guruji is saying that "the person receives it by 'Ustat' and does not come and go from that place life long". So, if a person did God's Ustat sitting in a cave, you mean to say that he will not be able to leave that cave for his entire life! Is God trying to punish that poor man for praising Him?! Weird meanings arise if you consider the context to be pointing to a worldly place.
In the same 'Pad' of that 'Ashtpadee', Guruji says,
"Sukhmanee Sahaj Gobind Gunn Naam.
Jis Mann Basai So Hoat Nidhan."
It means,
"The singing of the praises of the Lord (Gobind Gunn) and His Naam are responsible for the Sahaj Avastha, which is the jewel of joy (Sukhmanee).
When the Naam abides in the mind, one becomes a treasure."
So, all the rewards that Guruji describes after this line are for a person in whose mind the Naam of God comes to rest permanently, including the reward of freedom from the cycle of birth and death. They are not some rewards that someone can get with superficial parrot-like Ustat.
Speak for yourself, do not speak on behalf of the Guru or God! How do you know that God would have never spoken such words through the Guru if my interpretation is right?? Do you already know God? Gurbani says that God is unfathomable, nobody can know His intentions. And suddenly you seem to know what God would have done! Wow! How can you know why God did what He did and what He would have done in a certain situation!? That is highly presumptuous of you! You speak as if you understand God! Wow!
Again, over here, effort is being put by those sewaks and sages while doing Ustat, isn't it? I know what you will say, that Ustat cannot help one to reach God. I say that anything can help one to reach God, provided one is totally involved in that act. If you are doing Sumiran, do it totally. If you are doing Keertan, do it totally. If you are doing His Ustat in any manner, do it totally. If you are dancing in His love, do it totally! Total involvement, total devotion, total one-pointedness is a pre-requisite!
Now, to the the point of why, and in what context, i asked the question, 'Isn't that Mukti?'
I spoke of Gurbani saying, 'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan', which according to me means '(Such a person) gets out of the cycle of birth and death'. Now, getting out of the cycle of birth and death is Mukti. If my interpretation is right then my question is right too! Let's get the opinion of the sikhphilosophy sangat on this line from Gurbani. Do i have permission to do that Balbir Ji? Better still, why don't you approach the 'Panj Pyaaras' (whom Guruji considered as the Guru, in order to take Amrit Himself), and ask them what that line means. I am sure Guruji will enlighten you through them! Please try it!
You say that all know about one-pointedness! My dear there is a big difference between 'knowing' and 'putting it into practice'. I know about so many things, does that mean i have realized those things? I know Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a state of Union with God, but just by knowing do i experience that state? Just by knowing 'one-pointedness' do i become 'one-pointed'? Is this so hard to understand?
God is in the Jaap of His Naam, as done by Him. This Jaap, as set forth by Him, is the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. God is in this Ajapaa Jaap, which is the foundation of Creation.
In the form of the 'Ajapaa Jaap', God permeates the whole of His Creation. He is also in our Jaap (very subtly, deep down), but we have to reach the foundation, our centre, in order to see God in our Jaap. Even Maya is God's Creation, even Maya is within His Hukam. So anything arising out of Maya is also within His Hukam. Our Jaap may arise out of our ego, which arises out of Maya, but still, the base that it is resting on is God. If the wall of ego separating us from God disappears then our Jaap merges into the Ajapaa Jaap. Only the Ajapaa Jaap remains forever.
Haven't you ever met people who have very little ego? Haven't you met someone humbler than you? It means that he is relatively less egoistic than you, isn't it? So, ego can be less or more. Some people are very egoistic, like 'Harnaakash' who tortured his own son 'Prahlaad'. 'Prahlaad' had a very tiny (subtle) ego, He was the embodiment of humility, like many other Bhagats, hence God came as 'Narsimhaa' to destroy 'Harnaakash' once and for all because 'Harnaakash' was about to kill God's loved devotee 'Prahlaad'. And Gurbani says that God always comes to protect those who totally surrender to His Will.
Ego can be big! And ego can be tiny! And ego can be everything in between! Try to understand. I feel i cannot make it simpler than this! You want more examples, the history of spirituality is bleeding with examples from very big egos to very little egos!
Remaining Sangat of Sikhphilosophy, please get involved!
(Answer yes or no)
(1) Have you come to the wisdom of Jaap?
(2) Do you have an ego?
If the answer to both those questions is 'yes' then what you have said above in your statement is wrong!
And please don't mix up 'Jaap' with 'True Jaap'. 'Jaap' is something that we do. And 'True Jaap' or 'Ajapaa Jaap' is something that is happening due to God.
And when you understand something then it is not? Who figured that out?
Go through these line from Gurbani once again:
"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means,
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart."
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)
Is Guruji also playing a game of ego, talking about 'genuine effort' required from a seeker during 'Naam-Jap'?!
If you are not without ego then how can you be so sure that what 'you' have understood is also not 'a game of the ego'?
And, am i not part of the Sangat too? How do you know that i do not need an explanation?! Maybe you are right, i don't! But how do you know? Are you antarjamee too?
Well, if you don't want to explain, then i will explain it to the Sangat as i understand it.
The word 'Prayrnaa' means 'Inspiration'. You got that right! And that is what i have been trying to explain for so long! That God and Guru guide us, inspire us, tell us about the right techniques and then we have got to follow them, put some efforts into what they say!
The above line from Gurbani says,
'Jio Prayray Tio Karnaa'.
'Prayray' is derived from 'Prayrnaa'. The above line means, 'As He inspires, that way they (or we) do'. And you have simply stated 'He inspires, does it'. Does that mean anything? He inspires Himself? For what? He is already perfect. Why would He need inspiration from Himself? And that too to 'Do' something?! He can inspire someone who is not perfect. He can inspire His imperfect children who seek salvation. That is what Guruji is trying to tell us.
In its entirety the line means:
'Sincere effort and intelligence come from all-knowing God (as inspiration), as He inspires that way they (or we) do'.
Isn't this closer to what Guruji is trying to tell us? Sangat Ji decide?
Is the meaning of 'Bigsi-aa' equal to 'forgot'!? I thought 'Bisariaa' was forgot! Now, almost anybody can tell you that! Again, my point here is that if you could make a mistake while translating one word, don't you think your interpretations of Gurbani could also be at fault? Please, seriously, think about this!
'Bigasiaa' literally means 'blossomed forth'! See the difference. You interpreted it as 'forgot' when the actual meaning is to 'blossom forth'! What a difference between, 'mind forgot' and 'mind has blossomed forth'! Not even the same context!
You say 'Endeavor is God's act'! God needs to endeavor? For what? Has God ever come to you personally and told you that? I don't think so. But indeed, God can inspire us through those who have realized Him, like the Gurus.
According to me, the above line means,
'Day and night, bliss is happening (to me), (my) mind has blossomed forth, efforts are happening, (i) yearn to unite with my Lord'.
If you set a wheel turning, does it stop moving immediately when you leave it? In fact, if there was no friction of any kind, the wheel would keep turning forever. Once one puts genuine efforts with the help of the Satguru, the wheel starts turning and then it keeps turning if we just remain Gurmukhs and follow the Guru. Hence, we may say that 'efforts happen', in the sense that the wheel keeps turning. The friction is created by our minds, but with the guidance of the Guru and genuine efforts by the Sikh the friction is eradicated and the wheel shall keep turning till it reaches its destination!
First you called my replies, a 'Veda', now 'long prose', i wonder what's coming next! You tell me to explain things all the time. How can i explain without 'long prose'?!
What i simply meant by the line, 'The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap' is the following:
We begin doing Jaap while our ego is still with us. I do Jaap and i know i have an ego. And i also know that it is diminishing. With the Guru's guidance and with genuine efforts which i will have to put in, i hope to eradicate it totally some day. Whenever that day comes, i would hear the Ajapaa Jaap permanently!
My friend, to understand what the Gurus have said, first of all a person has to understand many languages, above that, one has to be able to decipher all the poetic constructs of Gurbani. A lot goes into the interpretation of Gurbani. And not everyone can interpret it in the exact same way. Everyone is trying. I am trying to interpret Gurbani based on my understanding. You are doing it in your way. And here we both are trying to share our understanding with everyone. You are the one who keeps asking, 'Please explain', 'Please elaborate'! To elaborate, i will have to say something more! I will have to link statements from Gurbani and add whatever i have understood! How else can one elaborate? Please, at least acknowledge that! You have been asking questions 90% of the time, try elaborating for once and you will know what i mean!
Moreover, have you 'come across your own self'?! You are talking of coming across other people who say more than the Gurus have said. What about you? Do you understand everything that the Gurus have said? They said it out of enlightenment. And as far as i know, you are not enlightened. Or are you? If not then your understanding will definitely be short of Guruji's understanding, however hard you try. The same thing applies to me too. So, please don't say that you have come across other people who try to say more than the Gurus, as if you know everything that the Gurus have said, and that you never do that yourself!
But, Balbir ji, firstly you ask me to 'Please explain', 'Please elaborate' all the time, and when i do explain what i have understood, you start talking like as if Guruji came and told you i was wrong!
And talking of 'keeping some place free for truth'. You surely mean that whatever place i now have is full of falsities, don't you? How do you know that what i have understood is false? If you are certain that it is false then please justify yourself. What if my understanding is acceptable to the Guru? Is there any way for you to know? What if my understanding of 'Ek Omkar' arose out of many years of Sumiran? What if i realized it in a Sahaj manner through the Guru? Do you know how i came to that understanding? I am sure you don't. Say whatever you want to say about your experience with 100% surity and i won't object. But don't comment in this way about other's experience, that too after asking them to share their understanding.
Read my posts once again. As a ready reference, i am reposting certain things here.
Bhai Gurdas Ji's Shabad, "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA Aagey Hoe Laet Hai".
I have informed you that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani was acceptable to Guruji as a Teeka, but now you want a proof, to which i have supplied adequate proof i think. So, if you find no way to refute that, i am sure you will try to translate the above line in such a way that it justifies your view. And this cycle will never end!
I have given you direct examples from Gurbani, consider these:
"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means,
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart."
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)
"Udam Karat Seetal Mann Bhaey."
which means,
"By putting in genuine efforts, the mind became calm and quiet."
When you don't have a direct reply against an argument, you just ignore it and post some other lines from Gurbani and try to justify yourself. And i have given replies to each one of your justifications based on my understanding of Gurbani. In the last post, you even mistranslated "blossoming forth of the mind" as "mind forgot", which cannot be a typing mistake. Your translation of the word 'Bigasiaa' is not even close to a literal translation of it! If such a mistranslation can happen then don't you think that you could have mistranslated other lines from Gurbani too? Please try to be a little more flexible and maybe we will be able to learn something in the process.
And, i have explained my support in favour of 'Genuine effort in following the Guru' so many times, in such detail. And you have not responded well at all. You are still stuck with one single line from my initial post. To support that line i have given so many arguments and you haven't replied fairly.
By the way, with respect to apparent controversies arising in the minds of amateur seekers, where is your reply to, "Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey"? You have ignored it and replied without any mention. Maybe you are still looking for a way to justify this in your way.
Guruji has transformed so many people who earlier used their powers to harm people and later used the same powers to help them. Isn't that enough to support this analogy with a sword?
Guru Nanak Dev Ji transformed 'Kaudaa Raakhshas' into a saint! This person used to fry people alive and later eat them using his powers. And Guruji transformed him into a humble sewak. The same sword that used to kill people started protecting them.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji transformed 'Madho Das' into 'Banda Singh Bahadur Ji'. Earlier he used to insult saints visiting his village. People who did not bow down to his ego had to face his wrath. After one meeting with Guruji, he was transformed. He became a 'destroyer of evil' and a 'protector of the weak, defenseless and downtrodden'. Again, an 'evil' sword was transformed into a 'good' one.
Let's see what you come up with.
I am trying to contribute to a healthy discussion/debate, from which everyone in the Sangat could learn or maybe unlearn something!
By the way, don't be in a hurry to reply because then you tend to miss many of the questions that i ask. And by all means, continue to be totally frank.
Best wishes.
Bhull Chukk Di Khimaa Mangdaa Haan.
Balbir Ji, i am enjoying this! Please continue this wonderful discussion!
Thanks to you too my friend. I am loving it! I reply when i feel most active!
And, i don't see anyone else getting involved in this discussion deeply. I think they should! Sikhphilosophy, knock knock!
I simply said that you misinterpreted Gurbani! No strings attached. That is what i feel. And in my opinion, you are continuing to do so. One understands Gurbani truly only when one experiences what the Gurus have said. Just a conscious mind is not enough. One has to live Gurbani. That way understanding is Sahaj, it is natural. So, you can't be sure if you have got it right and the same applies to me. You are trying to use your mind to figure out Gurbani and i am using mine. But the mind is unreliable.
The highest place is no 'place' at all. You have taken it too literally. In the context of that 'Pad', place refers to the highest state a person achieves in Sahaj Avastha.
Here is another line from Gurbani, which uses the word 'Asthaan', but not as a place.
"Naam Bhagat Kai Sukh Asthaan".
which means
"The Naam is the home of joy for His Bhagats".
See, how 'Naam' is refered to as an 'asthaan', symbolically. But Naam is not an 'asthaan', isn't it? So, 'asthaan' word is quite generic. It is not always used for a physical place in space. It is used to refer to non-material things too, such as 'Naam' or 'Sahaj Avastha' (ooch asthaan, as a state). The word 'asthaan' is used in so many ways in Gurbani. Study more lines from Gurbani containing this word, to improve understanding. Hope this helps.
Gurbani is for people from all walks of life. From novices to advanced minds, all interpret Gurbani the way they want. There are as many interpretations as there are minds! I would simply say that Guruji is talking about Union with God, about the drop merging with the ocean and becoming the ocean and in that context the state (don't take it literally as place) realized would be the highest, 'a drop becoming the infinite ocean'.
'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan' is such a simple line from Gurbani. It simply means that 'Such a person gets out of the cycle of birth and death'. 'Birth' is 'Aavan' and 'Death' is 'Jaan'! I am surprised seeing you misinterpret this! Let's do one thing, let's start a new thread and try to get the opinion of others in the Sangat, just on this line from Gurbani. Let's see the response. Perhaps, that will make you think again.
Gurbani is trying to help us to realize the state of Union with God, which is the highest state. Once One reaches that state, One does not come back into the cycle of birth and death. So, simple to understand! I wonder why you are creating worldly interpretations out of it. Please see the context in which Guruji is talking. Please read the entire Ashtpadee. Meditate on it!
Refer to your interpretation of 'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan'. You say that Guruji is saying that "the person receives it by 'Ustat' and does not come and go from that place life long". So, if a person did God's Ustat sitting in a cave, you mean to say that he will not be able to leave that cave for his entire life! Is God trying to punish that poor man for praising Him?! Weird meanings arise if you consider the context to be pointing to a worldly place.
In the same 'Pad' of that 'Ashtpadee', Guruji says,
"Sukhmanee Sahaj Gobind Gunn Naam.
Jis Mann Basai So Hoat Nidhan."
It means,
"The singing of the praises of the Lord (Gobind Gunn) and His Naam are responsible for the Sahaj Avastha, which is the jewel of joy (Sukhmanee).
When the Naam abides in the mind, one becomes a treasure."
So, all the rewards that Guruji describes after this line are for a person in whose mind the Naam of God comes to rest permanently, including the reward of freedom from the cycle of birth and death. They are not some rewards that someone can get with superficial parrot-like Ustat.
Speak for yourself, do not speak on behalf of the Guru or God! How do you know that God would have never spoken such words through the Guru if my interpretation is right?? Do you already know God? Gurbani says that God is unfathomable, nobody can know His intentions. And suddenly you seem to know what God would have done! Wow! How can you know why God did what He did and what He would have done in a certain situation!? That is highly presumptuous of you! You speak as if you understand God! Wow!
Exactly! Here Guruji is talking about renouncing praise and slandering! Isn't that an effort required from a seeker? Or do you want God to come and snatch praise and slandering from him? If that is the case then why are so many in this world continuing to praise and slander? Why doesn't God take it away from them, since you say that no effort is needed from the seeker? Guruji says "He renounces", He doesn't say, "I make him renounce", does he? Thanks for justifying my point of view that some effort is required from the seeker!
This is exactly what i have been trying to say through all those posts. Forget the sages, even the realized Ones cannot find God's end! Because if there was an end to God, Gurbani wouldn't have called Him infinite ('Beant')!
Again, over here, effort is being put by those sewaks and sages while doing Ustat, isn't it? I know what you will say, that Ustat cannot help one to reach God. I say that anything can help one to reach God, provided one is totally involved in that act. If you are doing Sumiran, do it totally. If you are doing Keertan, do it totally. If you are doing His Ustat in any manner, do it totally. If you are dancing in His love, do it totally! Total involvement, total devotion, total one-pointedness is a pre-requisite!
When did i say that 'Ustat' is a state!? You are taking liberties here! You are assuming things that i never said! This is what i have to say. Praise or Ustat of God is an 'Act'. If one is totally 'one-pointed' (devoted) in that act then even Ustat is capable of taking one to the door of God!
Now, to the the point of why, and in what context, i asked the question, 'Isn't that Mukti?'
I spoke of Gurbani saying, 'Bahur Na Hovai Aavan Jaan', which according to me means '(Such a person) gets out of the cycle of birth and death'. Now, getting out of the cycle of birth and death is Mukti. If my interpretation is right then my question is right too! Let's get the opinion of the sikhphilosophy sangat on this line from Gurbani. Do i have permission to do that Balbir Ji? Better still, why don't you approach the 'Panj Pyaaras' (whom Guruji considered as the Guru, in order to take Amrit Himself), and ask them what that line means. I am sure Guruji will enlighten you through them! Please try it!
Your experience? In the sense that you have experienced total awareness? Or are you just talking about heightened awareness during Sumiran? Well, to just reach a state of heightened awareness, many other techniques can do the trick, for example, 'Ustat'! Try it! That's my experience! Praising God through Keertan has raised my awareness manifold, always! Just as well as Sumiran!
Although, i did not quote that directly, i still support that entirely. All my posts are indicative of that. Only 'total devotion', only 'one-pointedness in devotion' to God can please the Guru. I don't think anybody can object to that statement. So, why do you say it is not correct? How can you be so certain? How can you totally rely on your mind for that, when Guruji has asked us to 'win over' or 'kill' our mind? I really want the sikhphilosophy sangat to give their opinions on this!
You say that all know about one-pointedness! My dear there is a big difference between 'knowing' and 'putting it into practice'. I know about so many things, does that mean i have realized those things? I know Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a state of Union with God, but just by knowing do i experience that state? Just by knowing 'one-pointedness' do i become 'one-pointed'? Is this so hard to understand?
Jaap is finite. Jaap stops once Ajapaa Jaap is heard. How can one continue to do Jaap when the most wonderful Jaap of God, the 'Ajapaa Jaap' is heard? There would be no need! Ajapaa Jaap which permeates the whole of Creation is infinite, without beginning and end.
God is in the Jaap of His Naam, as done by Him. This Jaap, as set forth by Him, is the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. God is in this Ajapaa Jaap, which is the foundation of Creation.
In the form of the 'Ajapaa Jaap', God permeates the whole of His Creation. He is also in our Jaap (very subtly, deep down), but we have to reach the foundation, our centre, in order to see God in our Jaap. Even Maya is God's Creation, even Maya is within His Hukam. So anything arising out of Maya is also within His Hukam. Our Jaap may arise out of our ego, which arises out of Maya, but still, the base that it is resting on is God. If the wall of ego separating us from God disappears then our Jaap merges into the Ajapaa Jaap. Only the Ajapaa Jaap remains forever.
'True Jaap' is the Jaap done by God. It is the 'Ajapaa Jaap'. The 'Ultimate Jaap'. Nothing else can be called 'True Jaap' because some bit of ego always remains in our Jaap. Only after the ego is finally extinguished by the Guru, do we begin to hear the Ajapaa Jaap. Our Jaap no longer exists, because 'we' no longer exist. Since we merge into the whole, our 'Jaap' also merges with the 'Ajapaa Jaap'.
Haven't you ever met people who have very little ego? Haven't you met someone humbler than you? It means that he is relatively less egoistic than you, isn't it? So, ego can be less or more. Some people are very egoistic, like 'Harnaakash' who tortured his own son 'Prahlaad'. 'Prahlaad' had a very tiny (subtle) ego, He was the embodiment of humility, like many other Bhagats, hence God came as 'Narsimhaa' to destroy 'Harnaakash' once and for all because 'Harnaakash' was about to kill God's loved devotee 'Prahlaad'. And Gurbani says that God always comes to protect those who totally surrender to His Will.
Ego can be big! And ego can be tiny! And ego can be everything in between! Try to understand. I feel i cannot make it simpler than this! You want more examples, the history of spirituality is bleeding with examples from very big egos to very little egos!
Remaining Sangat of Sikhphilosophy, please get involved!
'Jaap is 100% effort of God through the Guru'!! This is the first time i have heard that God has to put efforts to get something done! Wow! The ones who realize God become effortless and God still has to put efforts, wow! How does that stick up?!
(Answer yes or no)
(1) Have you come to the wisdom of Jaap?
(2) Do you have an ego?
If the answer to both those questions is 'yes' then what you have said above in your statement is wrong!
And please don't mix up 'Jaap' with 'True Jaap'. 'Jaap' is something that we do. And 'True Jaap' or 'Ajapaa Jaap' is something that is happening due to God.
Wow! So, when i understand something, then it is a 'game of ego', hmm?
And when you understand something then it is not? Who figured that out?
Go through these line from Gurbani once again:
"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means,
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart."
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)
Is Guruji also playing a game of ego, talking about 'genuine effort' required from a seeker during 'Naam-Jap'?!
If you are not without ego then how can you be so sure that what 'you' have understood is also not 'a game of the ego'?
How do you know that Sangat does not need your explanation? Isn't that presumptuous of you? I request you to just speak for yourself! No offense meant!
And, am i not part of the Sangat too? How do you know that i do not need an explanation?! Maybe you are right, i don't! But how do you know? Are you antarjamee too?
Well, if you don't want to explain, then i will explain it to the Sangat as i understand it.
The word 'Prayrnaa' means 'Inspiration'. You got that right! And that is what i have been trying to explain for so long! That God and Guru guide us, inspire us, tell us about the right techniques and then we have got to follow them, put some efforts into what they say!
The above line from Gurbani says,
'Jio Prayray Tio Karnaa'.
'Prayray' is derived from 'Prayrnaa'. The above line means, 'As He inspires, that way they (or we) do'. And you have simply stated 'He inspires, does it'. Does that mean anything? He inspires Himself? For what? He is already perfect. Why would He need inspiration from Himself? And that too to 'Do' something?! He can inspire someone who is not perfect. He can inspire His imperfect children who seek salvation. That is what Guruji is trying to tell us.
In its entirety the line means:
'Sincere effort and intelligence come from all-knowing God (as inspiration), as He inspires that way they (or we) do'.
Isn't this closer to what Guruji is trying to tell us? Sangat Ji decide?
Wow, i haven't seen Gurbani misinterpreted, mistranslated and mis-presented like this in a long time! Read your translation in one go and you will know why i say this.
Is the meaning of 'Bigsi-aa' equal to 'forgot'!? I thought 'Bisariaa' was forgot! Now, almost anybody can tell you that! Again, my point here is that if you could make a mistake while translating one word, don't you think your interpretations of Gurbani could also be at fault? Please, seriously, think about this!
'Bigasiaa' literally means 'blossomed forth'! See the difference. You interpreted it as 'forgot' when the actual meaning is to 'blossom forth'! What a difference between, 'mind forgot' and 'mind has blossomed forth'! Not even the same context!
You say 'Endeavor is God's act'! God needs to endeavor? For what? Has God ever come to you personally and told you that? I don't think so. But indeed, God can inspire us through those who have realized Him, like the Gurus.
According to me, the above line means,
'Day and night, bliss is happening (to me), (my) mind has blossomed forth, efforts are happening, (i) yearn to unite with my Lord'.
If you set a wheel turning, does it stop moving immediately when you leave it? In fact, if there was no friction of any kind, the wheel would keep turning forever. Once one puts genuine efforts with the help of the Satguru, the wheel starts turning and then it keeps turning if we just remain Gurmukhs and follow the Guru. Hence, we may say that 'efforts happen', in the sense that the wheel keeps turning. The friction is created by our minds, but with the guidance of the Guru and genuine efforts by the Sikh the friction is eradicated and the wheel shall keep turning till it reaches its destination!
First you called my replies, a 'Veda', now 'long prose', i wonder what's coming next! You tell me to explain things all the time. How can i explain without 'long prose'?!
Amazing! You seem to know everyone throughout history! It is so easy for you to say that, 'It has never worked with anyone. It will never work with anyone'. Again, i would like to ask, how can you be so sure? Are you one with God already? Are you 'ghat ghat ke antarjaamee' like God, hmm?!
What i simply meant by the line, 'The journey begins with Jaap and ends in Ajapaa Jaap' is the following:
We begin doing Jaap while our ego is still with us. I do Jaap and i know i have an ego. And i also know that it is diminishing. With the Guru's guidance and with genuine efforts which i will have to put in, i hope to eradicate it totally some day. Whenever that day comes, i would hear the Ajapaa Jaap permanently!
Woah! Isn't that what i said? That you will not find a single line saying that 'Ek Omkar is equal to Ajapaa Jaap'. When did i assert that line? I said that one will 'not find' such a straight-forward line of equating the two phrases in Gurbani! After that i even explained how i came to the conclusion, that both 'Ek Omkar' and 'Ajapaa Jaap' refer to the same idea, through my understanding. Just look over your posts, how many times have you linked lines from Gurbani with your understanding and tried to prove a point!? If you can do that then why can't somebody else? This is not fair, Balbir Ji!
My friend, to understand what the Gurus have said, first of all a person has to understand many languages, above that, one has to be able to decipher all the poetic constructs of Gurbani. A lot goes into the interpretation of Gurbani. And not everyone can interpret it in the exact same way. Everyone is trying. I am trying to interpret Gurbani based on my understanding. You are doing it in your way. And here we both are trying to share our understanding with everyone. You are the one who keeps asking, 'Please explain', 'Please elaborate'! To elaborate, i will have to say something more! I will have to link statements from Gurbani and add whatever i have understood! How else can one elaborate? Please, at least acknowledge that! You have been asking questions 90% of the time, try elaborating for once and you will know what i mean!
Moreover, have you 'come across your own self'?! You are talking of coming across other people who say more than the Gurus have said. What about you? Do you understand everything that the Gurus have said? They said it out of enlightenment. And as far as i know, you are not enlightened. Or are you? If not then your understanding will definitely be short of Guruji's understanding, however hard you try. The same thing applies to me too. So, please don't say that you have come across other people who try to say more than the Gurus, as if you know everything that the Gurus have said, and that you never do that yourself!
I thank you for your kind gesture. You prayed for me. Many thanks to you.
But, Balbir ji, firstly you ask me to 'Please explain', 'Please elaborate' all the time, and when i do explain what i have understood, you start talking like as if Guruji came and told you i was wrong!
And talking of 'keeping some place free for truth'. You surely mean that whatever place i now have is full of falsities, don't you? How do you know that what i have understood is false? If you are certain that it is false then please justify yourself. What if my understanding is acceptable to the Guru? Is there any way for you to know? What if my understanding of 'Ek Omkar' arose out of many years of Sumiran? What if i realized it in a Sahaj manner through the Guru? Do you know how i came to that understanding? I am sure you don't. Say whatever you want to say about your experience with 100% surity and i won't object. But don't comment in this way about other's experience, that too after asking them to share their understanding.
Think of the reason why Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani is sung in 'The Golden Temple' and in the Gurudwaaras all across the world. Did people suddenly start doing that due to a whim? This has been happening since Guruji's time, since the time He was present to witness it happening. I hope that is enough of a proof for you.
Yes, you have not understood my writing!
Read my posts once again. As a ready reference, i am reposting certain things here.
Bhai Gurdas Ji's Shabad, "Charan Saran Gur EK PAINDA Jae Chal, Satgur KOT PAINDA Aagey Hoe Laet Hai".
I have informed you that Bhai Gurdaas Ji's baani was acceptable to Guruji as a Teeka, but now you want a proof, to which i have supplied adequate proof i think. So, if you find no way to refute that, i am sure you will try to translate the above line in such a way that it justifies your view. And this cycle will never end!
I have given you direct examples from Gurbani, consider these:
"Sagal Udam Mah Udam Bhala, Har Ka Naam Japahu Jiya Sada."
which means,
"The best effort among all efforts is to always chant the name of God in one's heart."
(this should really clear your doubts about the significance of sincere effort during Jaap)
"Udam Karat Seetal Mann Bhaey."
which means,
"By putting in genuine efforts, the mind became calm and quiet."
When you don't have a direct reply against an argument, you just ignore it and post some other lines from Gurbani and try to justify yourself. And i have given replies to each one of your justifications based on my understanding of Gurbani. In the last post, you even mistranslated "blossoming forth of the mind" as "mind forgot", which cannot be a typing mistake. Your translation of the word 'Bigasiaa' is not even close to a literal translation of it! If such a mistranslation can happen then don't you think that you could have mistranslated other lines from Gurbani too? Please try to be a little more flexible and maybe we will be able to learn something in the process.
And, i have explained my support in favour of 'Genuine effort in following the Guru' so many times, in such detail. And you have not responded well at all. You are still stuck with one single line from my initial post. To support that line i have given so many arguments and you haven't replied fairly.
By the way, with respect to apparent controversies arising in the minds of amateur seekers, where is your reply to, "Namo Andhkaare, Namo Tej Tejey"? You have ignored it and replied without any mention. Maybe you are still looking for a way to justify this in your way.
What i stated about the sword is such a simple and generic idea!
Guruji has transformed so many people who earlier used their powers to harm people and later used the same powers to help them. Isn't that enough to support this analogy with a sword?
Guru Nanak Dev Ji transformed 'Kaudaa Raakhshas' into a saint! This person used to fry people alive and later eat them using his powers. And Guruji transformed him into a humble sewak. The same sword that used to kill people started protecting them.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji transformed 'Madho Das' into 'Banda Singh Bahadur Ji'. Earlier he used to insult saints visiting his village. People who did not bow down to his ego had to face his wrath. After one meeting with Guruji, he was transformed. He became a 'destroyer of evil' and a 'protector of the weak, defenseless and downtrodden'. Again, an 'evil' sword was transformed into a 'good' one.
Let's see what you come up with.
Balbir Ji. I can assure you that i am not hurt by anything you said. And i hope that i have not hurt you unknowingly.
I am trying to contribute to a healthy discussion/debate, from which everyone in the Sangat could learn or maybe unlearn something!
By the way, don't be in a hurry to reply because then you tend to miss many of the questions that i ask. And by all means, continue to be totally frank.
Best wishes.
Bhull Chukk Di Khimaa Mangdaa Haan.
