Mediumship And Sikhism

[Harkiran Kaur]

Don't tell this to me, tell it to the Akal Takht. It's their SRM telling you not to buy into it, not me. How do you reconcile your supernatural beliefs with what the SRM tells you to think in this regard?

I might also point out that one can have a spiritual life without also holding supernatural beliefs.

Also, if we are already ONE with Waheguru, what exactly do you mean by 'journey towards Waheguru'??

I actually explained this before... We never left so we are not actually going anywhere. Rather we have a very persistent amnesia.

Also I said I don't believe my understanding of the universe is in any way supernatural... Especially with quantum physics pointing at the material world being an illusion. To me they are just natural abilities and follow with the natural makeup of he universe. As I said at one time gravity would have been considered supernatural. Hey at one time if you suggested the world wasn't flat you'd be flayed lol We just have not yet advanced science enough to explain it. But that doesn't make something supernatural. If consciousness can affect the material universe (and that IS proven currently by science) but only recently in history the idea would have been seen as supernatural. But it's not...

 

[Ishna]

I actually explained this before... We never left so we are not actually going anywhere. Rather we have a very persistent amnesia.

Oh okay, I don't see it in your earlier posts. I just wanted to draw that out a little for the OP since they're new and may not have their head around the whole panentheistic immanent Waheguru thing yet that can be so foreign to some newcomers.

Also I said I don't believe my understanding of the universe is in any way supernatural... Especially with quantum physics pointing at the material world being an illusion.

Fascinating! I suppose you don't have to call your own beliefs supernatural if you see evidence explaining the things you believe in as functioning within natural laws. I think for most of us, though, it's at least right on the edge of acceptable mainstream scientific knowledge. I think it's good practice to base my own beliefs on as many demonstrably true things as possible. Until more research is conducted around that bleeding edge of science, I will be sceptical of such claims so I don't get led up the garden path. Ultimately everyone is free to believe what they like.... however my next question:

Leaving aside the word 'supernatural' then... what do you think about the SRM's rejection of the things I listed earlier? What do you think they are trying to achieve by that massive paragraph? Do you believe in magic although the SRM tells you not to?

[I seriously edited my post a little while after posting it. sorry about that.]

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Oh okay, I must have missed that in your earlier post. I just wanted to draw that out a little for the OP since they're new and may not have their head around the whole panentheistic immanent Waheguru thing yet that can be so foreign to some newcomers.



Fascinating! I suppose you don't have to call your own beliefs supernatural if the evidence explains the things you believe in to function within natural laws. I think for most of us, though, it's at least right on the edge of acceptable mainstream scientific knowledge.

Perhaps leaving aside the word 'supernatural' then... what do you think about the SRM's rejection of the things I listed earlier? What do you think they are trying to achieve by that massive paragraph?

I am trying to pull it up on my iPhone and having trouble with the PDF online but the English translation has some things in error. For one, the original does not say anything about a wife having to 'serve' the husband in the anand Karaj part. The English does... Obviously someone wanted to push that idea but the original wording was different and didn't imply the wife was in any way beneath the husband.

I wanted to pull up the exact English text of that part though. But for what I remember it doesn't say those Things don't exist rather it instructs to not partake in them. But I could be wrong. But I want to run it by Balbir Ji to get the original Punjabi meaning to be sure. He is Sikh Missionary Trained so I trust his interpretation. And he knows about my experiences and doesn't discount them as being not real... nor has he ever said that somehow I am cursed because OBEs happened without my looking for them to happen.
In the case of the OP they are not looking to contact spirits. But these things are happening anyway. To tell someone that 1) their experience must be not real because hey 'I' never experienced it and science can't prove it and 2) it's against Sikhi to do it (when they have no control over it happening) I don't think that can help. Rather we should try to understand and even if we can't... We have to acknowledge that at this point in our development as a species, we still have MUCH to learn about how the universe works! Therefore there must exist things which at his time we can't explain. We should however know enough to admit that just because we can't explain it yet doesn't make it not real. It just means we have not advanced enough In science. But we are continuing every day to understand more and more. Until a couple years ago, Higgs Bosun particles were unproven and now we know how matter gets its weight. We can't change the experiments that have proven subatomic particles which make up every atom in our bodies and everything in the known universe... Can either behave as a wave of a particle... Depending on whether there is a conscious observer. A conscious observer collapses the wave function. Meaning conscious observation causes it to be a particle. But if even our brains are made of those same particles... Who exactly is observing us into existence??? Since we ourselves can affect mater in this very real way, our consciousness must exist outside of the material world, in a quantum state. This so far IS science... Now if our consciousness exists somewhere outside the physical realm, then why couldn't abilities like telepathy etc exist, when we consider that time and space are parts of this construct only... They only pertain to the physical reality. Want proof from science? Look up spooky action from a distance (coined by Einstein) where particles separated by any distance even across a galaxy can become entangled so that what affects one, affects the other. This also is science. So what I am saying is just don't take what we currently know about the universe and think that's all there is. We have so much more to discover!

 

[Ishna]

Cool, when you find out more about the SRM around that clause I referenced earlier, please do let me know.

Also, you can't be cursed, because curses don't exist either

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Cool, when you find out more about the SRM around that clause I referenced earlier, please do let me know.

Also, you can't be cursed, because curses don't exist either

Haha u know what I meant... figure of speech for someone speaking ill of someone as in cussing haha

 

[swarn bains]

I did not read much of it, but it is an interesting subject. one thing that if you are psychic and yet you are a bit scared. In order to become so is just a bit of concentration which some have by birth the others acquire by concentration or by meditation. it is generally to get into someone else's mind or get into the same wave length as the other person thinks. It has nothing to do with godliness. I saw a line about rehat maryada. it is just a code of conduct to follow in order to keep the followers in line with their thinking. It is a social guide or a slogan.All those who answer your question i only see one who follows rehat maryada. You are doubtful about your ability to get ahead in spiritual life. The SGGS does have complete guidance to become divine but most of us cannot comprehend it or follow and act on it. I have read most of the religious scriptures and all of them try to catch the ear with opposite hand but SGGS is direct. This is a semi godly and social network. There is not much to learn about godliness here.

 

[Original]

I have a question regarding Mediums. First, let me explain myself. I come from a long long of family members who are "psychic" in nature, what I mean by this, is they have the ability to see spirits (ghosts and demons) and hear, feel or sense them. I am among them, and although I may want to strengthen this ability, I am wondering what the Guru says about doing this. I don't do it for money or financial gain. I do this to help people (offer comfort ect). I do not scam people, I never have and never will. But I do not want to do something that is taboo, especially since I believe I have finally found my religious home (I call it). I feel very connected and at home (comfortable or my beliefs match very strongly with Sikhi). Please help, I need advice or guidance. Thank you!!!

Dear Ayla

If you had said pigs fly, I'd believe ya, but to tell me you communicate with the dead, I'll have to have you incapacitated for treatment [Mental Health Act 2007 [UK] ].To deem communicating with the dead an ability, is not just diabolical, but complete and utter nonsense. More of a disability if you ask me, and as for affiliation with Sikhism - yeah, right ! stone age times probably.

I'm sorry for being blunt, but the Lunatics Act 1845, explicitly stipulates severe condemnation of those who indulge in such weird practices. Hope you get well and revisit, in the mean time I'd request the Senate at SPN to offer prayers in lieu of you getting well soon !

No offence intended !

Goodbye

 

[Ishna]

My mum has spent so much money on mediums, clairvoyants, psychics, fortune tellers, etc. I've grown up surrounded by astrology, numerology, magic, etc. I've been at one time in my life a Wiccan where magic and all the like are central. I've learned about occult practices and engaged in a couple in my time. I've seen some strange stuff, I've "felt" strange stuff.

However, that has all fallen away, because I've found no truth there. What I see, is people taking other people's money and giving them little in return.

Today, my mum is constantly going on about angels, spirit guides, omens, luck, messages from the dead... but she is a lonely woman alienating her family and trying desperately to find a place to live. It has not brought her one ounce of actual, real positive effect.

So, my experiences tell me that this stuff is best left alone. It's fruits are small and frequently bitter. There are more tangible things that can be done to help people, here and now, to deal with their grief, etc.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Ishna Ji, agreed. One should not go looking for these things. But... what about those who these things just 'happen' to? I had no control over OBEs. I couldn't stop them if I wanted to... so my only option was to realize they were not 'evil' nor 'dangerous' and I was ALWAYS ok, and they gave me realization that I am MORE than my physical body. That is huge! Realizing without a doubt that I will continue on long after this physical life is done. I dont see anything negative in that! It makes me appreciate why I am here. To break through the illusion and realize my true origin. That realization in turn, causes me to do everything I can to help others because I have realized everything and everyone are ONE. Just as easily someone who experienced telepathy can make the same realizations... But I agree we should not take the flowers for the garden. We will miss the larger goal!

 

[Harry Haller]

Dear Ayla

If you had said pigs fly, I'd believe ya, but to tell me you communicate with the dead, I'll have to have you incapacitated for treatment [Mental Health Act 2007 [UK] ].To deem communicating with the dead an ability, is not just diabolical, but complete and utter nonsense. More of a disability if you ask me, and as for affiliation with Sikhism - yeah, right ! stone age times probably.

I'm sorry for being blunt, but the Lunatics Act 1845, explicitly stipulates severe condemnation of those who indulge in such weird practices. Hope you get well and revisit, in the mean time I'd request the Senate at SPN to offer prayers in lieu of you getting well soon !

No offence intended !

Goodbye

We should try and respect all points of view surely, even those we do not agree with

 

[Original]

We should try and respect all points of view surely, even those we do not agree with

I agree, provided there are no overriding considerations. The case to hand is one of capacity and as such, I'm obliged to comment on the inconsistency with Sikh belief and value. However, a tact on my part to nip it in the bud before it finds favour amongst fertile minds was to that end and not to be disrespectful. Sometime you have to be cruel to be kind.

All in all, I'm delighted with your softly softly approach. Harry the hound is sound as a pound !

Take care

 

[Harry Haller]

However, a tact on my part to nip it in the bud before it finds favour amongst fertile minds was to that end and not to be disrespectful

This is a free forum with little censorship, I think people can make up their own minds, fertile or not

All in all, I'm delighted with your softly softly approach. Harry the hound is sound as a pound !

how delighted? I've run out of samosas..

in any case, back to topic

 

[Original]

his is a free forum with little censorship, I think people can make up their own minds, fertile or not

On the whole, this is a Sikh forum that has a legal obligation not to "misrepresent" Sikh faith and practice. You can't be talking Predator v Godzilla on account free speech on a licence that was granted for selling liquor. And hence the reason why lawful censorship is a legal requirement with which the host must comply. For example, "Harry's Fish n Chip" shop cannot be trading elephants and camals to local zoos. The appropriate Licencing Authority has specific jurisdictions within which lawful conformance is a statutory requirement. Similarly, organisations such as SPN have objects within which they must fulfil their legal obligations, one of which is "censorship". Equally, the freedom of expression in a democratic society must also be balanced to accommodate human rights and in so doing the law is fairly well relaxed, insofar, a margin of appreciation is extended to the host organisation to set up local laws [bylaws] for operational requirements and to meet the objects of its founding principles.

As for people making their own minds, yes, I very much encourage that kind of attitude, but equally, am I reminded of the moral and legal indebtedness with which one is obliged to discharge in accord with perfect virtue. Ayla's case is one of moral virtue and I've only cited an opinion based on Sikh belief and value. Take for example, you and your respected wife having a picnic in a nearby park by the lake,and then, all of a sudden you see a child fall into the lake, what would you do ? Legally you are not obliged to save the child, but morally ......?

In advising Ayla, albeit, rather harshly, I've acted out of moralising consequence both to align personal and religious compass.

 

[Harry Haller]

On the whole, this is a Sikh forum that has a legal obligation not to "misrepresent" Sikh faith and practice. You can't be talking Predator v Godzilla on account free speech on a licence that was granted for selling liquor. And hence the reason why lawful censorship is a legal requirement with which the host must comply. For example, "Harry's Fish n Chip" shop cannot be trading elephants and camals to local zoos. The appropriate Licencing Authority has specific jurisdictions within which lawful conformance is a statutory requirement. Similarly, organisations such as SPN have objects within which they must fulfil their legal obligations, one of which is "censorship". Equally, the freedom of expression in a democratic society must also be balanced to accommodate human rights and in so doing the law is fairly well relaxed, insofar, a margin of appreciation is extended to the host organisation to set up local laws [bylaws] for operational requirements and to meet the objects of its founding principles.

As for people making their own minds, yes, I very much encourage that kind of attitude, but equally, am I reminded of the moral and legal indebtedness with which one is obliged to discharge in accord with perfect virtue. Ayla's case is one of moral virtue and I've only cited an opinion based on Sikh belief and value. Take for example, you and your respected wife having a picnic in a nearby park by the lake,and then, all of a sudden you see a child fall into the lake, what would you do ? Legally you are not obliged to save the child, but morally ......?

In advising Ayla, albeit, rather harshly, I've acted out of moralising consequence both to align personal and religious compass.

Originalji

how you 'advise' people is of course your own business, I do not find your post below to be any sort of advice, actually, threatening to section someone because they have beliefs different to you is quite offensive.

If you had said pigs fly, I'd believe ya, but to tell me you communicate with the dead, I'll have to have you incapacitated for treatment [Mental Health Act 2007 [UK] ].To deem communicating with the dead an ability, is not just diabolical, but complete and utter nonsense. More of a disability if you ask me, and as for affiliation with Sikhism - yeah, right ! stone age times probably.

I'm sorry for being blunt, but the Lunatics Act 1845, explicitly stipulates severe condemnation of those who indulge in such weird practices. Hope you get well and revisit, in the mean time I'd request the Senate at SPN to offer prayers in lieu of you getting well soon !

trying to then justify it with the above post only works against you, as you have violated your own terms with what you have written. You may actually find it gets deleted due to TOS.

Please allow the OP to continue without any further harassment, if you have points to make, I know you have the eloquence to make them . If you have further queries on the law and the forum, kindly address them to Admin Singh rather than cluttering up a thread.

If you have a reply to this post please PM it to me so we can continue in private

If we may now continue with the topic

 

[Original]

I had no control over OBEs

..these'll be your soul excursions and not mental expeditions. Primary organs engaged in these activities are the heart and the mind, respectively. On rare occasions when the soul is out of the body, you're able to experience the "anhad shabd" and in some instances, the soul gravitates towards the source of the sound helplessly, just as the flux is pulled by the magnet, so too is the soul pulled by the sound.The experiencer [meaning you] will know the difference between soul travel and mental activity of the mind.

 

[Original]

Originalji

how you 'advise' people is of course your own business, I do not find your post below to be any sort of advice, actually, threatening to section someone because they have beliefs different to you is quite offensive.



trying to then justify it with the above post only works against you, as you have violated your own terms with what you have written. You may actually find it gets deleted due to TOS.

Please allow the OP to continue without any further harassment, if you have points to make, I know you have the eloquence to make them . If you have further queries on the law and the forum, kindly address them to Admin Singh rather than cluttering up a thread.

If you have a reply to this post please PM it to me so we can continue in private

If we may now continue with the topic

Sir

I don't think I've offended, threatened or behaved unlawfully, but if you deem me liable, I offer my apologies unreservedly !

Goodnight and Godbless