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Most Influential Man In History

Jun 1, 2004
3,007
83
45
Aman Singh, I recall reading you live in Pakistan, and from reading this thread it brings up a question in mind... how do you feel about living in pakistan

Dear Platinum007, as i already make myself clear in that thread itself... it is not me but Mehinder Singh Ji, who is putting up in Pakistan and he had PMed his bio-data and i just posted it to let other members know... it hope it clears the matter now... :)
 

Platinum007

SPNer
Jan 17, 2005
56
0
41
Aman Singh said:
Dear Platinum007, as i already make myself clear in that thread itself... it is not me but Mehinder Singh Ji, who is putting up in Pakistan and he had PMed his bio-data and i just posted it to let other members know... it hope it clears the matter now... :)
Oh, i apologize.. I was up late last night, i maybe have over looked what i read through late night.. thank you kindly for the clear up..

I hope he reads this.. i'm very interested in his input. and if it differs from different regions of pakistan.
 

drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
1,308
54
I've had family live in a Muslim country, they come visit and complain of no problems when i ask them.

countries like saudia arbia have compounds where westerns can do what ever they wish, walk in bikini's, kiss in public if they wish, and drink.

Its a muslim country, if they don't WANT to live there they can leave whenever they wish, there are many muslims who WISH to live in Saudia Arabia BECAUSE of its muslims laws.

In my point of view Saudia Arabia is just protecting itself from any western influence. I live in canada, and trust me when you give people something small they want the whole arm. and what do you end up with?.. high theft levels, prostitiion, cousins, sisters, daughters and sleep around, alcoholics.... list goes on... not that i'm against western society, but after all we get to choose where we want to live.



Dear Platinum

You have met one family but for sure more than one family live in saudi arabia I have some information for you to further open you mind to what is going on


In Uk Muslim compose 3.1% of population and there are hundereds of mosques and not just one compound for them to do their prayers as you mentioned

In Saudi Arabia Christian alone 4% but not a single church allowed but yes there may be some coumpond or lounge as you told but this just seems to be a joke

More than 8 % populationis SHIA muslim are also living there but you can never expect even good news even for them they are considered less than a normal citizen there you can see even a muslim has less rights in islamic country but for sure they may have been provided with similar compound for their practice

more interesting thing non muslim cant practice his religion in public may be majority are afraid of other religions

Hindu citizen if happen to claim compensation for something it is just 16 times lower than a muslim that is 1/16 what do you think how fare it is


Thousands of people covert to islam just to live peaceful life with equal rights
so there is no need for door to door message and you dont need even to mention somebody in saudi arabia to convert to islam as he is literally forced to do so I can hardly comprehend when you say they convert by heart

And this not isolated case when muslim rulers were in india they used same ways and tactics to convert people they created oppresion and even killed people in india to covert other out of fear ( though it is now old story in indian history but no body know it better than sikhs )


rest you can read in this following beautiful document laced with clear facts and figure
i hope it may help





Saudi Arabia

International Religious Freedom Report 2004
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

The country is ruled by a monarchy with a legal system based on Islamic law (Shari'a). The Government does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion, and such protection does not exist in practice. Islam is the official religion, and the law requires that all citizens be Muslims. The Government prohibits the public practice of non-Muslim religions. The Government recognizes the right of non-Muslims to worship in private; however, it does not always respect this right in practice and does not define this right in law.

There generally was no change in the status of religious freedom during the period covered by this report, although the Government continued a campaign to foster greater moderation and tolerance of religious diversity. The Government enforces a strictly conservative version of Sunni Islam. Muslims who do not adhere to the officially sanctioned Salafi (commonly called "Wahhabi") tradition can face severe repercussions at the hands of the Mutawwa'in (religious police). The Government continued to detain Shi'a leaders. Members of the Shi'a minority continued to face political and economic discrimination, including limited employment opportunities, little representation in official institutions, and restrictions on the practice of their faith and on the building of mosques and community centers. The Government has stated publicly that its policy is to allow non-Muslims to worship privately; however, this policy is not consistently enforced, resulting in the violation of some non-Muslims' freedom of worship and causing other non-Muslims to worship in fear of harassment and in such a manner as to avoid discovery.


During the period covered by this report, senior government officials made some efforts to improve the climate of tolerance toward other religions and within Islam. The Government convened a second and third session of the "National Dialogue" meeting that included members of different Muslim traditions and both men and women and issued statements condemning incitements to violence. The session released a set of recommendations that called for educational reform and development of tolerance and moderation in education. The Government also took measures to remove what it deemed to be disparaging references to other religious traditions from the educational curriculum. In addition, increased press freedom permitted journalists to criticize publicly abuses by the religious police. However, religious discrimination and sectarian tension in society continued during the period covered by this report, including denunciations of non-Muslim religions from government-sanctioned pulpits.


In January and February, the country hosted approximately 2 million Muslim pilgrims from around the world and all branches of Islam for the annual hajj pilgrimage. The majority of citizens support a state based on Islamic law, and many oppose public non-Muslim worship, although there continued to exist differing views regarding how this should be realized in practice. There continued to be societal discrimination against members of the Shi'a minority.


The U.S. Government discusses religious freedom issues with the Government as part of its overall policy to promote human rights. Senior administration officials continued to raise U.S. concerns with the Government. In September 2004, the Secretary of State designated Saudi Arabia as a "Country of Particular Concern" under the International Religious Freedom Act for particularly severe violations of religious freedom.


Section I. Religious Demography


The country has a total area of 1,225,000 square miles, and its population is approximately 24 million, with an estimated foreign population of 6 to 7 million. The foreign population includes approximately 1.4 million Indians, 1 million Bangladeshis, nearly 900,000 Pakistanis, 800,000 Filipinos, 750,000 Egyptians, 250,000 Palestinians, 150,000 Lebanese, 130,000 Sri Lankans, 40,000 Eritreans, and 30,000 Americans. Comprehensive statistics for the religious denominations of foreigners are not available; however, they include Muslims from the various branches and schools of Islam, Christians, and Hindus. Approximately 90 percent of the Filipino community is Christian. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops estimates there are considerably more than 500,000 Catholics in the country and perhaps as many as 1 million.


The majority of citizens are Sunni Muslims who predominantly adhere to the strict interpretation of Islam taught by the Salafi School.


Approximately 2 million citizens are Shi'a Muslims, the vast majority of whom live in the Eastern Province, where they constitute between 40 and 50 percent of the Province's citizen population.


There is no information regarding foreign missionaries in the country. Proselytization by non-Sunni Muslims is not permitted, and the promotion of non-Salafi Sunni Islam is restricted.


Section II. Status of Religious Freedom


Legal/Policy Framework


Freedom of religion does not exist. It is not recognized or protected under the country's laws, and basic religious freedoms are denied to all but those who adhere to the state-sanctioned version of Sunni Islam. Citizens are denied the freedom to choose or change their religion, and noncitizens practice their beliefs under severe restrictions. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The Government limits the practice of all but the officially sanctioned version of Islam and prohibits the public practice of other religions. During the period covered by this report, the Government publicly restated its policy that non-Muslims are free to practice their religions at home and in private. While the Government does not always respect this right in practice, many non-Muslims engage in private worship without harassment. As custodian of Islam's two holiest sites in Mecca and Medina, the Government considers its legitimacy to rest largely on its interpretation and enforcement of Shari'a. Consequently, the Government has declared the Koran and the Sunna (tradition) of Muhammad to be the country's Constitution. The Government follows the rigorously conservative and strict interpretation of the Salafi (often referred to as "Wahhabi") school of the Sunni branch of Islam and discriminates against other branches of Islam. Neither the Government nor society in general accepts the concept of separation of religion and state.


The country is governed according to the Basic Law, which sets out the system of government, rights of residents and citizens, and powers and duties of the Government. The judiciary bases its judgments largely on Shari'a, a legal system derived from the Koran and the Sunna. The Government permits Shi'a Muslims to use their own legal tradition to adjudicate cases limited to family law, inheritance, and endowment management. However, there are only two such judges, one in Qatif and one in al Hasa, which is insufficient to serve the sizable Shi'a populations of those areas and the rest of the country.


The 'Eid al-Fitr and 'Eid al-Adha religious holidays are recognized as the only national holidays. During the period covered by this report, the Government again permitted the observance of the Shi'a holiday of Ashura in the eastern city of Qatif and in the southern province of Najran. Small-scale, public observances of Ashura also occurred in Al-Hasa and Saihat.


Hindus are considered polytheists by Islamic law, which is used as a justification for greater discrimination in calculating accidental death or injury compensation. According to the country's "Hanbali" interpretation of Shari'a, once fault is determined by a court, a Muslim male receives 100 percent of the amount of compensation determined, a male Jew or Christian receives 50 percent, and all others (including Hindus and Sikhs) receive 1/16 of the amount a male Muslim receives.


Restrictions on Religious Freedom


Tolerated Islamic practice generally is limited to a school of the Sunni branch of Islam as interpreted by Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab, an 18th century Arab religious leader. (This branch of Islam is often referred to as "Wahhabi," a term that many adherents to this tradition do not use. The teachings of Abd Al-Wahhab are more often referred to by adherents as "Salafi" or "Muwahiddun," that is, following the forefathers of Islam, or unifiers of Islamic practice.) Practices contrary to this interpretation, such as celebration of the Prophet Muhammad's birthday and visits to the tombs of renowned Muslims, are forbidden. The Government prohibits the spreading of Islamic teachings that do not conform to the officially accepted interpretation of Islam. During the period covered by this report, there was an increasing degree of public discussion of the conservative religious traditions. Particularly after the May 2003 terror attacks in Riyadh, some citizen writers began to criticize abuses committed by the religious police (the Committee to Promote Virtue and Prevent Vice, commonly called the "Mutawwa'in"). However, discussion of religious issues is severely constrained, and the editors and writers of major local daily newspapers have been temporarily or permanently banned for the publication of articles and cartoons critical of the religious establishment.


The Ministry of Islamic Affairs supervises and finances the construction and maintenance of almost all mosques, although approximately 30 percent of all mosques are built and endowed by private persons for charity or at private residences. However, all mosques fall under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Islamic Affairs. The Ministry pays the salaries of imams (prayer leaders) and others who work in the mosques. The Committee to Promote Virtue and Prevent Vice is a governmental entity, whose chairman has ministerial status. A separate government committee defines the qualifications of imams.


Since the May and November 2003 terrorist attacks in Riyadh, the Government has taken public measures to control religious extremism. It continued to fire imams for immoderate preaching, and it began retraining and providing "guidance" for preachers. The Government also held training courses for Mutawwa'in in interpersonal relations.


The Government bars foreign imams from leading worship during the most heavily attended prayer times, and it prohibits them from delivering sermons during Friday congregational prayers. The Government states that its actions are part of its "Saudization" plan to replace foreign workers with citizens. Writers and other individuals who publicly criticized this interpretation, including both those who advocated a stricter interpretation and those who favored a more moderate interpretation than the Government's, risked sanctions. Several journalists who wrote critically about the religious leadership or who questioned theological dogma temporarily were banned from writing or traveling abroad.


Under Shari'a, conversion by a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy, a crime punishable by death if the accused does not recant. There were no executions for apostasy during the period covered by this report, and there have been no reports of such executions for several years. During the period covered by this report, a schoolteacher was tried for apostasy, and eventually convicted in March of blasphemy; the person was given a prison sentence of 3 years and 300 lashes. The trial received substantial press coverage.


The Government prohibits public non-Muslim religious activities. Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, imprisonment, lashing, deportation, and sometimes torture for engaging in religious activity that attracts official attention. The Government has stated publicly, including before the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva, that its policy is to allow non-Muslim foreigners to worship privately. However, the Government does not provide explicit guidelines--such as the number of persons permitted to attend and acceptable locations--for determining what constitutes private worship, which makes distinctions between public and private worship unclear. This lack of clarity and instances of inconsistent enforcement led many non-Muslims to worship in fear of harassment and in such a way as to avoid discovery. The Government usually deported those detained for visible non-Muslim worship after sometimes lengthy periods of arrest during investigation. In some cases, they also were sentenced to receive lashes prior to deportation.


The Government officially does not permit non-Muslim clergy to enter the country to conduct religious services, although some come under other auspices, and the Government generally has allowed their performance of discreet religious functions. Such restrictions make it very difficult for most non-Muslims to maintain contact with clergymen and attend services. Catholics and Orthodox Christians, who require a priest on a regular basis to receive the sacraments required by their faith, particularly are affected.


Proselytizing by non-Muslims, including the distribution of non-Muslim religious materials such as Bibles, is illegal. Proselytizing by non-Sunni Muslims also is not permitted, and the promotion of non-Salafi Sunni Islam is restricted. Muslims or non-Muslims wearing religious symbols of any kind in public risk confrontation with the Mutawwa'in. The Ministry of Islamic Affairs sponsors approximately 50 so-called "Call and Guidance" centers employing approximately 500 persons to convert foreigners to Islam. Some non-Muslim foreigners convert to Islam during their stay in the country. The press often carries articles about such conversions, including testimonials.


The Government requires noncitizens to carry Iqamas, or legal resident identity cards, which contain a religious designation for "Muslim" or "non-Muslim." There have been reports that individual Mutawwa'in have pressured sponsors not to renew Iqamas, which had been issued for employment, of individuals for religious reasons.


Members of the Shi'a minority are the subjects of officially sanctioned political and economic discrimination. During the period covered by this report, authorities continued to permit a greater degree of freedom to Shi'ites in the Eastern Province city of Qatif than in the past, overlooking religious practices and gatherings that were previously prevented. There were no reports of meeting places being closed in Qatif. However, in other areas with large Shi'a populations, such as al-Hasa and Dammam, there continued to be restrictions on Shi'a religious practices. In February and March, observances of Ashura took place in Qatif, although the police presence outside of Qatif was much larger than in the past. However, there were no reports of police interference with Ashura celebrations. In Qatif's city center, large groups of Shi'a gathered to hear Shi'a clerics speak and to purchase books and other religious paraphernalia. Many Shi'a travel to Qatif or Bahrain to participate in Ashura celebrations because of restrictions on public observances in other parts of the country. The Government continued sporadically to enforce other restrictions on the Shi'a community, such as banning Shi'a books and excluding Shi'a perspectives from the extensive religious media and broadcast programming.


Shi'a have declined government offers to build state-supported mosques because they fear the Government would prohibit the incorporation and display of Shi'a motifs in any such mosques. In the past, Shi'a have been permitted to build new Hussainiyas (gathering places) in Qatif and Ahsa, but the Government has closed Shi'a mosques built without government permission.


Members of the Shi'a minority are discriminated against in government employment, especially in national security-related positions, such as in the military or Ministry of Interior. While there are some Shi'a who occupy high-level positions in government-owned companies and government agencies, many Shi'a believe that openly identifying oneself as Shi'a will have a negative impact on career advancement. There is an absence of Shi'a representatives in government, both local and national. While there is no formal policy concerning the hiring and promotion of Shi'a, anecdotal evidence suggests that in some companies -- including companies in the oil and petrochemical industries--Shi'a are passed over for less-qualified Sunni compatriots.


The Government also discriminates against Shi'a in higher education through unofficial restrictions on the number of Shi'a admitted to universities. There are no Shi'a principals in the approximately 300 female schools in the Eastern Province. While government officials state that textbook language with prejudicial, anti-Shi'a statements has been removed, some teachers have not been retrained and continue to use anti-Shi'a rhetoric. Some cases have resulted in punitive measures being taken against Shi'a parents who have complained. There are no Shi'a cabinet ministers, and there are only 2 Shi'a in the 120-member Majlis al-Shura (consultative council). There are no Shi'a members of the country's highest religious authority, the Council of Senior Islamic Scholars (Ulema).


Since 2001, the Government has allowed Shi'a citizens to travel freely to Iran for religious pilgrimages. Travel to Iraq is more difficult due to the security situation. However, many Shi'a from the Eastern Province traveled to Karbala during Ashura.


Under the provisions of Shari'a law as practiced in the country, judges may discount the testimony of nonpracticing Muslims or of individuals who do not adhere to the official interpretation of Islam. Legal sources report that testimony by Shi'a is often ignored in courts of law or is deemed to have less weight than testimony by Sunnis.


Customs officials routinely open mail and shipments to search for contraband, including Sunni printed material deemed incompatible with the Salafi tradition of Islam, Shi'a religious materials, and non-Muslim materials, such as Bibles and religious videotapes. Such materials are subject to confiscation, although rules appear to be applied arbitrarily.


Sunni Islamic religious education is mandatory in public schools at all levels. Regardless of which Islamic tradition their families adhere to, all public school children receive religious instruction that conforms to the Salafi tradition of Islam. Non-Muslim students in private schools are not required to study Islam. Private religious schools are not permitted for non-Muslims or for Muslims adhering to non-Salafi traditions of Islam. Shi'a are banned from teaching religion in schools.


Public debate over reform in the country continued during the period covered by this report. In August 2003, Crown Prince Abdullah announced the establishment of the King Abd al-Aziz Center for National Dialogue. In December 2003, the Second Session of the "National Dialogue" was held in Mecca. The session issued recommendations that called for educational reform and studies to examine religious extremism in the country, and it included representatives from different Muslim religious traditions. Following the second session in January, a group of religious conservatives published a petition to the Crown Prince warning against diminishing the role of religion in school curriculums. Shi'a were represented at both sessions. Nevertheless, despite positive statements, there has been little tangible improvement in the status of those who do not adhere to the state-sanctioned version of Islam or who belong to a minority religious group.


During the period covered by this report, the Government approved the formation of the National Human Rights Association (NHRA). The NHRA, the country's first human rights organization, is chaired by a member of the Majlis al-Shura (Consultative Council) and has stated that one of its tasks is to ensure that the Government complies with international human rights agreements to which it is a signatory, as well as with human rights standards under Islam.


Abuses of Freedom of Religion


During the period covered by this report, the Government continued to commit abuses of religious freedom. However, reports of abuses often are difficult or impossible to corroborate. Fear and consequent secrecy surrounding any non-Muslim religious activity contribute to reluctance to disclose any information that might harm persons under government investigation. Moreover, information regarding government practices is incomplete because judicial proceedings generally are closed to the public, although the 2002 Criminal Procedural Law allows some court proceedings to be open to the public.


While there was an improvement in press freedom during the period covered by this report, open discussion of religious issues remained constrained. The press reported on debates in the Majlis al-Shura that focused on whether individuals must be Muslim to attain citizenship and included opinions on both sides of the issue. In November 2003, Mansur al-Noqaidan, a writer for Al-Riyadh, an Arabic-language paper, published an editorial in the New York Times criticizing the Government's response to religious extremism. Al-Noqaidan was sentenced to lashes for writing articles critical of the religious establishment in the press. This sentence had not been carried out by the end of the period covered by this report. There was also a report that a university professor was banned from teaching for criticizing the Government's discriminatory policies against Shi'a. The professor also was banned from traveling abroad.


There were no reported arrests of Shi'a religious leaders for religious violations. In September 2003, the press reported a raid in the Al Jouf region, where 16 Sufis were arrested for possession and distribution of books, videos, and brochures promoting Sufism. According to various reports, a number of Shi'a remained in detention during the period covered by this report, and there were reports of religious prisoners who were subjected to torture. Sheikh Ali bin Ali al-Ghanim was released from prison in 2002 after 20 months' imprisonment. During the period covered by this report, there were no new reports of young Shi'a being detained for extended periods of time. In the past, in such cases charges were rarely filed, and family members were not notified where the young men were held.


The Government continued to detain and deport non-Muslims for religious reasons. In 2003, an Ethiopian Christian activist leader was deported after an employment dispute led to investigation of his religious activities.


In October 2003, two Egyptian Christians were arrested by Mutawwa'in and jailed for religious activities. They were both released in November 2003, and neither was deported. Two other Catholics were arrested in Riyadh in October 2003 by regular police and released the same day without charge.


In February, a resident Christian was deported after providing an Arabic Bible to a citizen. In April, there were credible reports that Mutawwa'in arrested Brian O'Connor, an Indian Christian, for religious reasons after a dispute with his employer. According to reports, the Mutawwa'in beat him on the day of the arrest. The reports also claim that the Mutawwa'in confiscated his personal property, in addition to two Bibles, compact disks, a personal computer, and religious materials in video format. The Indian was in custody in Al Ha'ir jail on alcohol charges at the end of the period covered by this report, but colleagues claim that the charges against him were false and based on planted evidence.


There also were reports of surveillance of Christian religious services by security personnel.


Magic is widely believed in and sometimes practiced; however, under Shari'a the practice of magic is regarded as the worst form of polytheism, an offense for which no repentance is accepted and which is punishable by death. There were an unknown number of detainees held in prison on the charge of "sorcery," including the practice of "black magic" or "witchcraft." There have been no reports of executions for several years. During the period covered by this report, the local press reported several cases of arrests of foreigners and citizens for practicing sorcery.


Mutawwa'in practices and incidents of abuse varied widely in different regions of the country. Reports of incidents were most numerous in the central Nejd region, which includes the capital Riyadh. In certain areas, both the Mutawwa'in and religious vigilantes acting on their own harassed, assaulted, battered, arrested, and detained citizens and foreigners. The Government requires the Mutawwa'in to follow established procedures and to offer instruction in a polite manner; however, Mutawwa'in did not always comply with the requirements. During the period covered by this report, the Government acknowledged inappropriate conduct by some Mutawwa'in but refused to provide information on the number of reported incidents or disciplinary actions. While senior officials have defended the role of the Mutawwa'in, in 2003 the committee announced plans for a training program for Mutawwa'in in interpersonal skills; however, the extent and effect of the program was not clear at the end of the period covered by this report. During this period, and particularly after the May 2003 terrorist bombings in Riyadh, reports of Mutawwa'in abuses declined considerably.


Mutawwa'in enforcement of strict standards of social behavior included closing commercial establishments during five daily prayer observances, insisting upon compliance with strict norms of public dress, and dispersing gatherings in public places. In October 2003, the Mutawwa'in reminded foreign workers to respect Ramadan, stating that if individuals were found ignoring the societal norms associated with Ramadan, they would be liable for punishment. Mutawwa'in reproached citizen and foreign women for failure to observe strict dress codes, and they detained men and women found together who were not married or closely related. In December 2003, the press reported that the Mutawwa'in warned shopkeepers in the Eastern Province not to sell New Year's or Christmas gifts or decorations. The warning also reminded employees not to allow their staff to celebrate either holiday openly. In February, the Grand Mufti restated a previously issued fatwa that declared Valentine's Day a "pagan Christian holiday" that could not be celebrated publicly. The Mutawwa'in banned shopkeepers from selling Valentine's Day gifts and decorations and forbade vendors from selling roses 5 days prior to and following February 14.


The Mutawwa'in have the authority to detain persons for no more than 24 hours for violation of strict standards of proper dress and behavior; however, they sometimes exceeded this limit before delivering detainees to the police. Procedures require a police officer to accompany the Mutawwa'in at the time of arrest; Mutawwa'in generally complied with this requirement. According to reports, the Mutawwa'in also are no longer permitted to detain citizens for more than a few hours, may not conduct investigations, and may no longer allow unpaid volunteers to accompany official patrols.


During the period covered by this report, there were no reports of abuse cases involving Hindus. The Government regards members of the large Hindu community as polytheists, and non-Muslim, non-Western religious communities must exercise extreme caution when practicing their religion.


During the period covered by this report, there were frequent instances in which mosque preachers, whose salaries are paid by the Government, used violently anti-Jewish and anti-Christian language in their sermons. Although this language has declined in frequency since the May 2003 attacks, there continue to be instances in which Mosque speakers prayed for the death of Jews and Christians, including from the Grand Mosque in Mecca and the Prophet's Mosque in Medina.


Abuses by Terrorist Organizations


During the period covered by this report, al-Qa'ida terrorists conducted a campaign of terrorist attacks in various locations in the country. In these attacks, they killed both Muslims and non-Muslims, citizens and expatriates, and members of the security forces. The terrorists justified these murders through an extreme religious ideology. In at least one incident, the May attack on a Western housing compound in al-Khobar, terrorists singled out non-Muslims for execution.


Forced Religious Conversion


Under the law, children of male citizens are considered Muslim, regardless of the country or the religious tradition in which they have been raised. The Government's application of this law discriminates against non-Muslim, noncitizen mothers and denies their children the freedom to choose their religion. There were no reports of the forced religious conversion of minor U.S. citizens who had been abducted or illegally removed from the United States during the period covered by this report.


Improvements and Positive Developments in Respect for Religious Freedom


During the period covered by this report, senior government officials made some efforts to improve the climate of tolerance toward other religions and within Islam. The Government convened a second and third session of the "National Dialogue" meeting that included members of different Muslim traditions and both men and women. The sessions presented a set of written recommendations to the Government that called for educational reform and development of tolerance and moderation in education.


The Government also took limited measures to remove what it deemed to be disparaging references to other religious traditions from the educational curriculum. In addition, increased press freedom permitted journalists to publicly criticize abuses by the religious police.


During the period covered by this report, the Government approved the formation of the NHRA, the country's first independent human rights body, which is chaired by a member of the Majlis al-Shura.


Senior leaders, including the Crown Prince and the Grand Mufti, called for moderation. These efforts continued to intensify after the May and November 2003 terror attacks in Riyadh. In August 2003, the highest religious authorities called on Muslims in the country to turn away from religious extremism and unjustified jihad.


Section III. Societal Attitudes


As a deeply conservative and devout Muslim society, there is intense pressure to conform to societal norms. During the period covered by this report, a citizen teacher was tried for apostasy. The case received substantial press coverage, but after testimony the court declined to convict him of apostasy and instead convicted him of blasphemy.


The conservative religious leadership also exerts pressure on the state to maintain its strict Islamic practices. To combat religious extremism, in May 2003 the Government announced the firing of several hundred prayer leaders and began to retrain them and other mosque employees.


Following the June 2003 session of the "National Intellectual Dialogue," participants representing different Muslim traditions in the country, including Sunni and Shi'ite leaders, issued a statement acknowledging that theological differences are "natural" and committing themselves to resolve differences through dialogue. The Government held a second session in Mecca in December 2003 that discussed educational reform, including the role of religion in school curriculums.


There is societal discrimination against members of the Shi'a minority. The majority of citizens support a state based on Islamic law and oppose public non-Muslim worship, although there are differing views as to how this should be realized in practice. The official title of the head of state is "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques," and the role of the King and the Government in upholding Islam within the country is regarded as a paramount function throughout the Muslim world.


Many non-Muslims who undertook religious observances privately and discreetly during the period covered by this report were not harassed. However, some non-Muslims claimed that informants paid by the Mutawwa'in infiltrated their private worship groups.


Relations between Muslim citizens and foreign Muslims are generally good. Each year the country welcomes approximately 2 million Muslim pilgrims from all over the world and of all branches of Islam, who visit the country to perform the hajj and umra.


In certain areas, religious vigilantes unaffiliated with the Government and acting on their own, harassed, assaulted, battered, arrested, and detained citizens and foreigners.


During the period covered by this report, the local press rarely printed articles or commentaries disparaging other religions; however, following the May attack in which terrorists killed six Westerners in Yanbu, the Crown Prince publicly stated that he believed Zionism was behind recent acts of terrorism.


Section IV. U.S. Government Policy


The U.S. Government discusses religious freedom issues with the Government as part of its overall policy to promote human rights. U.S. Government policy is to press the Government consistently to honor its public commitment to permit private religious worship by non-Muslims, eliminate discrimination against minorities, and promote tolerance toward non-Muslims.


During the period covered by this report, the U.S. Ambassador discussed U.S. concerns over the lack of religious freedom with a wide range of senior government and religious leaders. The Ambassador also raised specific cases of violations with senior officials, and U.S. Embassy officers met with Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) officials to deliver and discuss the U.S. Government's 2003 Annual Report on International Religious Freedom. Senior Embassy officers called on the Government to enforce its public commitment to allow private religious practice and to respect the rights of Muslims who do not follow the Salafi tradition of Islam. The U.S. Ambassador at Large for International Religious Freedom visited the country in October 2003 and met with senior government officials to raise religious freedom issues. In addition, Embassy officers met with MFA officials at various other times to discuss matters pertaining to religious freedom. In September 2004, the Secretary of State designated Saudi Arabia as a "Country of Particular Concern" under the International Religious Freedom Act for particularly severe violations of religious freedom.
 

Platinum007

SPNer
Jan 17, 2005
56
0
41
i didn't have time to read the whole article since i have school soon enough, but from skimming through it i'm sure many of the things in Saudia Arabia arn't all fine and dandy.. the Royal family is taking advantage of many of its citizens... women are not allowed to drive (when in Islam thats allowed).. Many of the arabs have taken advantage of there people thats why right now we see many Saudi citizens wanting a reform in the state of saudia arabia.. I would agree that many of the royal saudi's arn't doing all that well when it comes to running a country. but becuase a so called "muslims" are running a country to there desire does not reflect a relgion.. many of the things the "muslim" are doing in that country does not even reflect the religion at all

No the compounds are not a joke, I've heard from a first hand sourse who used to be a manger in those compounds.. many of the westerns where very happy living there dong what ever they liked in there compounds.

As for the converting in India, from what i've read about recent history the hindu religion has a caste system and when a person of the lower caste can't get a job he has no choice to convert to another relgion this is the reason why there was a mass convertion many years ago when lower caste hindu's converted to budism. In many of these cases it was due to the fact the lower caste hindu's where not able to advance in society as higher caste hindu's.
right now india is addressing this problem for the lower caste people but this was just recent.
 

basha

SPNer
Dec 19, 2004
22
0
44
New York, USA
Platinum007 said:
right now india is addressing this problem for the lower caste people but this was just recent.
addressing it? Just ban the caste system. How can a person be evaluated based on something that he had no control of, ie being born into a lower caste. And who are we to say which human being is lower in our eyes when in the almighty's eyes (and yes, hindus do believe in one god) every human being is equal. I hope the people rise up and demand that this practice be banned, it would not just be good for India but will also set an example world wide of the human values India is based on. Other countries which have similar unequality practices under different names will also learn a lesson from this ban.
 
Jul 13, 2004
588
63
36
UK
basha said:
How can a person be evaluated based on something that he had no control of
This is done all the time in society - sexuality, race, gender... this list goes on.

The caste system has been taken out of hand but the concept of it is not wrong. Castes are simply assigned different jobs and tasks in life. But all castes are equal since the soul has no gender, race, caste, sexuality, religion etc. So rather than banning it, people need to just stop the discrimination on grounds of caste.
 

singhaj

SPNer
Dec 20, 2004
21
0
usa
Mr. basha

I think the caste system has been banned in India for a while, but it is going to take a long time before the people in India actuall forget about it.........

The idea might have been great when this was setup upteen years ago, but it has been abused so badly it is not worth keeping it.
 
Jul 13, 2004
2,364
382
52
Canada
singhaj said:
I think the caste system has been banned in India for a while, but it is going to take a long time before the people in India actuall forget about it.........
I dont think so! There exists SC/ST quota in most of the government sector jobs.
 
singhaj said:
Mr. basha

I think the caste system has been banned in India for a while, but it is going to take a long time before the people in India actuall forget about it.........

The idea might have been great when this was setup upteen years ago, but it has been abused so badly it is not worth keeping it.
Infact from the minds of new generation, the caste system is evaporating slowly in India. Hopefully the next generation will not believe in it totally and the castes will be written only because of historical/religious reasons.

And as for as SC/ST quaota is concerned, hope for the better scene after the western universities are allowed to setup their centers of education in india (coz of WTO or some clause in it, this is gonna happen) this should eliminate (or will get eliminated slowly). Moreover Superme Court has already abolished reservation for higher studies. I think India is on right path as far as this is concerned. Slowly though.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,708
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KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
basha said:
addressing it? Just ban the caste system. How can a person be evaluated based on something that he had no control of, ie being born into a lower caste. And who are we to say which human being is lower in our eyes when in the almighty's eyes (and yes, hindus do believe in one god) every human being is equal. I hope the people rise up and demand that this practice be banned, it would not just be good for India but will also set an example world wide of the human values India is based on. Other countries which have similar unequality practices under different names will also learn a lesson from this ban.
Just "banning" or Name change ( harijans) etc wont solve the problem. The UNDERLYING reasons for discrimination are Language/economics/land/power etc. The poor low caste hindus like chumaars, choorreh, scavengers etc WITHOUT land/power/economic clout were SECOND third class muslims in Pakistan where the power is in the hands of the SARDARS.RANDHAWAS JATTS landowners muslims.. These chammars were at the bottom of the hindu heap..and ended up at the bottom of the muslim heap..which JATT SARDAR WEALTHY MUSLIM from PUNJAB is going to allow his daughter to marry the son of a TELI/CHMAAR muslim form Bihar ?? The BIHARI MUJAHIRS should DEMAND equal rights human values..and be an example to the world ???they have been demanding..bloodshed and murders strikes occur in karachi monthly/yearly..mosques get bombed (muslims bombing muslims)

PAKISTAN was created specifically for MUSLIMS....yet..more than HALF the Muslims never even went to Pakistan..
The BIHARI/UP Muslims were traeted worse than DIRT in Pakistan which is dominated by PUNJABI MUSLIMS ( there is Political turmoil till today in pakistan caused by these Mohajirs who are THIRD CLASS ciitzens of the Pakistan Muslim republic ??? why this discrimination..arent they all Muslims ??
BENGAL broke off from pakistan in the worst case bloody revolt..the worst atroscities rapes, etc by pakistani soldiers agaisnt Bengali women and children have been recorded..Bangaldesh is now a separate country from paksitan..why couldnt these two live as one muslim country ?/ again culture/language/economics came BEFORE the common religion.

This SAME RELIGION thery has been debunked properly in the paksitan Scenario..IF tomorrow the ENTIRE WORLD become Muslim overnight... the "American Muslim" will still be World Policeman...Muslim "BUSH" will still be bombing Iraqi muslims because he wants iraqi oil..and Black Muslims will still be slaves....NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Thse are falalcies in the dreamwolrd..REALITY CHECK...please.

Jarnail Singh
 

basha

SPNer
Dec 19, 2004
22
0
44
New York, USA
Gyani bhai, its just a sad world we live in. But dont let that get you down, this world is not where you will spend your life, because life is coming. It starts the second you take your last breath. This world is just a game we are forced to play as we drag our existence on this planet. You will like life much more than you like this world, I guarantee it! So delay your sleep till life, and delay your pleasures till life.
 

Toreador

SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7
0
43
USA
Gyani Jarnail Singh said:
Just "banning" or Name change ( harijans) etc wont solve the problem. The UNDERLYING reasons for discrimination are Language/economics/land/power etc. The poor low caste hindus like chumaars, choorreh, scavengers etc WITHOUT land/power/economic clout were SECOND third class muslims in Pakistan where the power is in the hands of the SARDARS.RANDHAWAS JATTS landowners muslims.. These chammars were at the bottom of the hindu heap..and ended up at the bottom of the muslim heap..which JATT SARDAR WEALTHY MUSLIM from PUNJAB is going to allow his daughter to marry the son of a TELI/CHMAAR muslim form Bihar ?? The BIHARI MUJAHIRS should DEMAND equal rights human values..and be an example to the world ???they have been demanding..bloodshed and murders strikes occur in karachi monthly/yearly..mosques get bombed (muslims bombing muslims)

PAKISTAN was created specifically for MUSLIMS....yet..more than HALF the Muslims never even went to Pakistan..
The BIHARI/UP Muslims were traeted worse than DIRT in Pakistan which is dominated by PUNJABI MUSLIMS ( there is Political turmoil till today in pakistan caused by these Mohajirs who are THIRD CLASS ciitzens of the Pakistan Muslim republic ??? why this discrimination..arent they all Muslims ??
BENGAL broke off from pakistan in the worst case bloody revolt..the worst atroscities rapes, etc by pakistani soldiers agaisnt Bengali women and children have been recorded..Bangaldesh is now a separate country from paksitan..why couldnt these two live as one muslim country ?/ again culture/language/economics came BEFORE the common religion.

This SAME RELIGION thery has been debunked properly in the paksitan Scenario..IF tomorrow the ENTIRE WORLD become Muslim overnight... the "American Muslim" will still be World Policeman...Muslim "BUSH" will still be bombing Iraqi muslims because he wants iraqi oil..and Black Muslims will still be slaves....NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Thse are falalcies in the dreamwolrd..REALITY CHECK...please.

Jarnail Singh


i think this is the most sober post i have read so far, and i agree with you wholeheartedly that changing religions or waving a magic wand will not wipe out centuries of oppression the roots of which are lost in history.

but i will say this, the influence of the caste hierachy is different in pakistan than india. where as in pakistan there is what we can call tribal type of warfare between different castes, in india there is nothing but absolute submission of sudras and vaisyas to the higher castes. in east punjab more so than india, and in pakistan more so than east punjab, there is social mobility where, depending on the economics involved, someone of a lower caste can proclaim himself a shaikh or qureshi.

i mean seriously, how many sikh bhappe, tarkhan, sainis, labanas and chures do you know that will readily submit themselves to a jatt or a rajput. compared with the rest of india, the caste influence is relatively low in punjab and pakistan. and this IS due to religion. even the british had observed that caste lines are blurred once you move towards the western half of the subcontinent. the proof of this is that it isnt brahmins and rajputs who were powerful in these regions but jats and pathans. jats (with their peculiar "rajput" surnames) are sudras while pathans are classed lower than syeds, shaikhs, and mughals. but i can honestly tell you, no brahmin will act up against a jatt, and no shaikh wants to cross paths with a pathan.

now that sikhism is just being swallowed up by hinduism, you have to admit, it does help to be a muslim or a chrisitian rather than a hindu where you will never be able to look the higher castes in the eye let alone openly go up in arms against them.

cya
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Das 101% agreees to brother Bashas saying that there should be a Ban on caste system in India.

But the political leaders are themselves castist and for vote bank politics they lack political will.Perhaps when they all are educated they will through away castism.

Then coming to Toredar Ji's.Well Gyani Jiu might be knowing of Punjab area of Pakistan.Das is sorry to say that there locals are hardly MuslimThey are more pagan or hindu.They just do jingosim of Islam to exploit other true Muslims of Pakhtoons or Baluchs.

But this thing Das has to agree by Toredar Ji that if Chritianity or Islam is practiaclly followed by folllwoers then there should not be any caste in them.But preachers in jeal of getting neo converts can converts Balck sheeps who bring Pagan castism or racialism in them.This is ture in all over the world.In Fact in India there is is caste based or Tribe based reservations for Muslims and Christians also.Some Chritisnas are even demanding reservations for 'dalit' Christian.Dalit means trampled but how can a person be trampled who has saviour like Jesus.

They are all ploy of native pagans to let Islam and Chrsitianty be divided so that it does not become strong.

In Fact Vedas ,Vedanta and Gita are also more in tune with Chrsitinaity,Islam or Gurmat then what Hindus do in life regarding Caste as these holy books to are Anti Caste.Well we have many educated Hindus also who want to eradicate caste.

Coming Back to Sikhs if they are getting absorbed in Hinduism.My freind you are wrong as Das himself if Hindu converted to Sikhism and oour number are rather increaseing.

Yes in Punjab there is a fall in numbers of Sikhs but in Hindi Area things are differnat.
Why is it so?

Well our missioanries in Punjab are definsive and themselves are unaware of Gurmat.

They hate Hindus while they must have hated misinterpetations of scriptures revered by Hindus.

They are defensive and hense racial that only Sikhs from Sikh family must reamin Sikh and do not attempt to convert outsider or non belivers so they are hardly missioanriers.

In Fact they spend more time to condem other religeons openly so that person from other religeon start to hate them and do not turn up at all.Guru Mahraj and Missioarys established by them rahter used the scriptures of thiers own religeons to tell them that what actualy your faith says realy happens in Sikhism.

But these missioamaries themselves do not live practical life of Sikhs.

This is only type of missioary who spend most of there time to condem thier own scriptures other then one and that interpetation of that one scripture is not done correctly by them.

Lastly they aRE rather afraid to have a new convert even if he/she wants to emrace feeling that this person may dilute Sikhism.But in futre you will se out side Punjab in Bihar,MP,UP,Chhatishgarh,Ap,Mahrashtra among other palces slowly Sikhs will become Majority and that also by those Sikhs who do not hate Hindus and these neo converts will rahter be an asset for Hindus.

There was a time when Dr Ambedkar Sahib wanted to Be A Sikh with more then 80000000 follwers but Jat loby due thier Pagan castist rituals said that we can not give control of our Darbar Sahib or fund to untoouchables.Had they be Sikh then then Such a stron Sikh population was more then suffisent to let Pakistan be Made.

Anyway in future there will be more and more Sikhs from all types of Races.And they are and will be seeking God and not funds and let Punjabis or Jatts take money.We need Sikhi and that is the best welth for us.

Let them be definsve and racial to let Sikhi remain to Punjabi families.

Guru tells us to Wand Chhako or eat after sharing with Hungery.This will mean that it is our duty to share the name of Akal with those who are spritualy hungery.

So let crrupt ,racial present day Masand who are hardly missioanryes but are those who hate honest person and Decalre Gem Like S Gurbax Singh Ji as Tankhaya,Let such anti Guramat who fight for chair or fund go to place they desrve(Das is not using Hell as in Panth Hell does not exist).

Das is happy that In Punjabi families due to AKJ,Damdami Taksal or People like Kala Afghana Sahib Panth will survive and floursih.

And out side Punjab due to effrosts of Baba Virsa Singh Ji,Yogi Bhajan,Nirmalas,Udaseens and other Sanatan Sikhs Panth will be always in high spirit and Chardi Kala.

We could say in the language of Niuhngs that Khot Nikal Raha Hai,Unworthy people in the grab of Sikhs are getting out.Good thing for us.Das himself as a new convert knows that Panth sees that neo convert be of high quality than with high but useless quality unlike many other contemporary faiths.
 

MINHAZ ALI

SPNer
May 17, 2005
4
0
MANGALORE
it is repeatedly told by christians that they are more in number. but u should not forget that islam is tough religion and spreadding it is tougher
and spreadding christianity is very easy task.all u have eo beleive that jesus died for u. this is how christianity is spread due to its easyness. and christianity did not spread all over the world but christians spread all over the world. christianity was spread to europe through sword and then european went to america and australia and africa.They passed their religion to some part of africa by giving them bribe and threats.In christianity nudity,alcohol is allowed and fating ,prostartion and charity is not mandatory. So it is not great if christianity was accepted by some europeans and africans. u take case of cat steven who become yousuf islam. he had everything money,fame and women. but after he selected islam he had to abolish those immoral things. this is called sacrifice.God want to see if we can give our desires for him or not.This is islam. islam does not bribe people. if u want heaven then pay the price. some ones death on the cross wont give u heaven.

this is reply for thoses christians who lie islam is spread by sword. if people want ti know how christianity was spread into europe they can visit www.jesusneverexisted.com. well i can give blue print. first christianity was distorted and made easy to appeal pagans of europe.then pagan customs were inserted to book of jesus to attract pagans. theses impious things were done by paul and his followers and attributed their lies to jesus. year 306 is new era of christianity as roman king constantine accepted christianity as state religion though he did not accept it immediately. he supported christianity and forced people to accept it but he accepted it only at his death bed.he wanted a single religion to unite eastern and wester empires of him. then he ordered to kill unitarian christians whose leader was bishop arius. after that pagans were tortured. successors of that king forced christianity on pagans. they are also presented with gifts. then Charemagne forced christianity on anglo saxon people. any one dared to go back to his pagan religion was executed. queen isabella ordered to kil muslims and jews of spain for rejecting christianity. then christian nations like france and spain had issued a decree that non christians must leave their nation. many jews embraced christianity to live in those nations.then they tried to force their religion on red indians,mexicans and aztec people but to no avail. miilions of red indians were killed for rejecting christianity. jews were persecuted by christians in europe for many centuries and now theses christians accuse islam of being spread by sword.
 

sikhway

SPNer
Jul 23, 2004
16
9
67
Sat sri akal,
Please don't think quantity can justify for righteousness.
Quality surely can. One of my complaints about democracy is is that, democracy is, "When 51 jackals tell 51 lions to shut up and sit in the corner. Sikhs are about quality--sawa lakh say ek larhaoon! ---One khalas to fight 125000.
Anyhow I think most influential person on The Earth so far was Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. Taht's is my unbiased view. I am a major History student so I know a bit about being unbiased. Okay that was ego roaring to coem out now my support for for my thesis.
{1] A muslim writer of 19th century wrote:
"Na kahoon abh ki!
Na kahoon Tabh ki!
Ughar na hotay Gobing Singh,
To sunnat hoti sabh Ki"
Meaning:
" I am not talking about now and then but all I can say is that if ther were NO Guru Gobind Singh Ji then all of India would be cicumcized."
Please don't get angry--Just read on!
[1] Guru Gobind Singh was only possible because Guru Nanak Sahib Ji came and laid down the foundation of Sikhi.
[2] Think of this-Only oppositon Muslims got in INdia between 1000 AD and 1800's were the SIKHS.
[3] Okay Now think of 1 billion Muslims in India instead of Hindus , Sikhs, Budhhists!

NOW answer this:
Do you tihnk it would have been possible for USA or anyone else to go to Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. if ALL of India was MUSLIM now?
NO WAY!
From MOngolia to MOrocco an unbeatable belt with no problems and with all the brains from INdia-Including nuclear bombs and manpower.

A very sobering thoguht indeed.
MAybe even Europe would have fallen by now!
Or even China too. WHat Gurus did was incredible.
I beleiev that if sikhs did nOT come along at that time then ALL of the world would have been Muslim.
People who ignore that fact really don't know horse manure about History.
All Shall hail To Guru Nanak Sahib Ji::wah:
js singh
 

Toreador

SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7
0
43
USA
headway said:
Sat sri akal,
Please don't think quantity can justify for righteousness.
Quality surely can. One of my complaints about democracy is is that, democracy is, "When 51 jackals tell 51 lions to shut up and sit in the corner. Sikhs are about quality--sawa lakh say ek larhaoon! ---One khalas to fight 125000.
Anyhow I think most influential person on The Earth so far was Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. Taht's is my unbiased view. I am a major History student so I know a bit about being unbiased. Okay that was ego roaring to coem out now my support for for my thesis.
{1] A muslim writer of 19th century wrote:
"Na kahoon abh ki!
Na kahoon Tabh ki!
Ughar na hotay Gobing Singh,
To sunnat hoti sabh Ki"
Meaning:
" I am not talking about now and then but all I can say is that if ther were NO Guru Gobind Singh Ji then all of India would be cicumcized."
Please don't get angry--Just read on!
[1] Guru Gobind Singh was only possible because Guru Nanak Sahib Ji came and laid down the foundation of Sikhi.
[2] Think of this-Only oppositon Muslims got in INdia between 1000 AD and 1800's were the SIKHS.
[3] Okay Now think of 1 billion Muslims in India instead of Hindus , Sikhs, Budhhists!

NOW answer this:
Do you tihnk it would have been possible for USA or anyone else to go to Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. if ALL of India was MUSLIM now?
NO WAY!
From MOngolia to MOrocco an unbeatable belt with no problems and with all the brains from INdia-Including nuclear bombs and manpower.

A very sobering thoguht indeed.
MAybe even Europe would have fallen by now!
Or even China too. WHat Gurus did was incredible.
I beleiev that if sikhs did nOT come along at that time then ALL of the world would have been Muslim.
People who ignore that fact really don't know horse manure about History.
All Shall hail To Guru Nanak Sahib Ji::wah:
js singh


this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read. i dont know what hindu spoon-fed propaganda you've read but i'll tell you that it was the rajputs (whom you sikhs are actually modelled after) who were the opposition to "islam" as you say. this so-called opposition began with prithviraj chahuhan's failed attempts to assassinate moinuddin chisti of ajmer and it idealogically continues to this day.

regardless the biggest opposition to the invading turkomen tribes were the pathans who incidentally were also the biggest headache for babur and subsequent mughals. go read your history again buddy. pathans along with most other tribes of north-west india converted to islam under sufi saints NOT by force. and they converted from BUDDHISM as archaeological evidence clearly points out and NOT your beloved hinduism. so you can keep your non-sensical jingoistic jargon to yourself and stop being such a hindu sycophant.

and if you sikhs hate muslims so much then why literally STEAL the concept of langar, degh, and sama (kirtan) from us. and oh yea, bang up job of protecting caste ridden india and lower castes (which comprise majority of indian and bengali muslim converts) from islam. i can just see how regretful they are of being "forced" into becoming muslims.

Arvind said:
[3] Okay Now think of 1 billion Muslims in India instead of Hindus , Sikhs, Budhhists!QUOTE]

check your history again. hinduism under shankracharya wiped out buddhism from greater india NOT islam. seriously, what history books are you reading??
 

sikhway

SPNer
Jul 23, 2004
16
9
67
Toreador said:
this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. i don't know what hindu spoon-fed propaganda you've read but i'll tell you that it was the rajputs (whom you Sikhs are actually modeled after) who were the opposition to "Islam" as you say. this so-called opposition began with prithviraj chahuhan's failed attempts to assassinate moinuddin chisti of ajmer and it ideologically continues to this day.
Toreador said:
regardless the biggest opposition to the invading turkomen tribes were the pathans who incidentally were also the biggest headache for babur and subsequent mughals. go read your history again buddy. pathans along with most other tribes of north-west India converted to Islam under Sufi saints NOT by force. and they converted from BUDDHISM as archaeological evidence clearly points out and NOT your beloved Hinduism. so you can keep your non-sensical jingoistic jargon to yourself and stop being such a hindu sycophant.

and if you Sikhs hate Muslims so much then why literally STEAL the concept of langar, degh, and sama (kirtan) from us. and oh yea, bang up job of protecting caste ridden India and lower castes (which comprise majority of Indian and Bengali Muslim converts) from Islam. i can just see how regretful they are of being "forced" into becoming Muslims.

Arvind said:
[3] Okay Now think of 1 billion Muslims in India instead of Hindus , Sikhs, Buddhists!QUOTE]
Arvind said:
check your history again. Hinduism under shankracharya wiped out Buddhism from greater India NOT Islam. seriously, what history books are you reading??



HMMMMMMMM!
[1]this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read.
[1] Well I didn't expect you to send me a garland or sweets. That is your opinion and oh yes I have read a few history books. Actually we are reminded daily how peaceful mughals were with us! NO problem bro! I didn't say anything against Islam as it is supposed to be but what actually went on!

[2]i don't know what hindu spoon-fed propaganda you've read but i'll tell you that it was the rajputs (whom you Sikhs are actually modeled after) who were the opposition to "Islam" as you say. this so-called opposition began with prithviraj chahuhan's failed attempts to assassinate moinuddin chisti of ajmer and it ideologically continues to this day.
[2]
[a] Hindu propaganda and I don't mix-Sorry you are barking up the wrong tree.
Chauhan Failed--period -Sikhs succeeded. THEY tried and whimpered.
[c] Two big clans of Rajputs existed-History states that. They both took different road when defeated. One from Jaipur started marrying their daughters to Moghal Kings--How convenient!:)
The others from further west [kin to Jaipurias] put all women children to fire inside the fort. At least some guts shown.
Sikhs fought for those daughters all the way to Kabul. Millions of girls were sold in Baghdad, Basra and Kabul markets. We have even these in our songs that women are taken away to Basra and beloved weep.

[3] regardless the biggest opposition to the invading turkomen tribes were the pathans who incidentally were also the biggest headache for babur and subsequent mughals. go read your history again buddy.
[3] I guess Gaznavi [from City of Gazni] and other people come to mind when i think of it. If Pathans had done their job then India would have been free from Muslims!
I guess somehow either Pathans complied or were defeated and joined the looters. Iranian And Turkish coffers are filled with Indian treasures to date--Pea{censored} Throne comes to mind.


[4]pathans along with most other tribes of north-west India converted to Islam under Sufi saints NOT by force. and they converted from BUDDHISM as archaeological evidence clearly points out and NOT your beloved Hinduism.
[4] AHAHHAHAHAAH!
Muslim conversions Peaceful? Have I missed out on 1000 years of rape, pillage, murder? The word 'Assassin' came from Islamic culture and people were called Hashishans-go read your history. It was a PBS special too.
Buddhism conversions peaceful? Don't make me laugh. Why not try peaceful methods now in Israel, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, USA Europe?
If these fanatics could do stuff like 9-11 NOW, imagine what they accomplished 100 years ago.
Peaceful Muslims in Iran wiped out Zoroastrians like that too-Another TV special. Bye the way last 500000 or so Zoroastrians survive in India but not a single on in Iran because it was too peaceful for their liking and they left. These Zoroastrians don't understand peace I guess.
BY the way Sikhism believes conversions without force thats why so few of us. Islam says convert or be killed. Guru Gobind Singh's 7 and 9 year old dangerous {censored} sons come to mind!:( December 1605 they were murdered by a peaceful Muslim ruler of sarhind. They were to be spared and married off to princesses if they had accepted Islam. Alas! Two little children had more guts then Jaipuri Rajputs and decided to die instead.
[5] and if you Sikhs hate Muslims so much then why literally STEAL the concept of langar, degh, and sama (kirtan) from us. and oh yea,
[5] Sorry pal you are completely wrong- I don't hate Islam or Mohammad Sahib Ji [PBUH} and His message but what people did with his message and the way they used it.

[6] bang up job of protecting caste ridden India and lower castes (which comprise majority of Indian and Bengali Muslim converts) from Islam. i can just see how regretful they are of being "forced" into becoming Muslims.
[6] I can see your point clearly here.

[7]check your history again. Hinduism under shankracharya wiped out Buddhism from greater India NOT Islam.

[7] You have proven that not only are you ignorant of Indian History from a neutral point of view you also don't know beans about Indian Geography.
The Buddhists largely killed by Shankracharya were around UP to Lahore not from Afghanistan. Those were 'peacefully' removed from there like the Afghanistani 'peaceful Removal of Buddha Statues.

My questions!
[1] I dunno! Is it me or some other people have a problem with the word PEACEFUL and the way people have used it for last 1400 years?
[2] If peaceful methods are so popular with Islamic World then how come not single democratic Muslim country exists?
[3] What God given right does any religion have to kill innocents? 9-11, Sikhs killing Hindus, or Hindus killing Muslims are sick examples of great religions.

Singh [Principal Canada]
BA; Psychology, Sociology
B.Ed, History, Geography
Special Ed. Educational Psychology
 
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