Naam And Name

[spnadmin]

Gurmit_Singh ji

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[Sidqui sikh]

I agree with Gyani Jarnail singh Arshi that name of god is a requirement of both the rich and the poor.

 

[pk70]

One of my Gurbani students made the following observation on Naam in Gurbani. Name is usually a Proper Noun....and given to us by our Parents/authority figure/etc. Since God doesnt have any parents/authority over Him...He has NO PROPER NOUN as a "Name" as we all do. All the "Names" of God...are Descriptive/adjectives/...attributes of Him...and given by his followers..
I disagree. The Lord has created humans that only can name Him, actually they name for every thing. Gyani ji, you name it to what we don’t name. There are many proper names that qualify the persons or a thing. Guru Gobind Singh ji named his Singh’s to qualify their qualities. Theory of proper name in concept of Lord’s name is not acceptable, I call HIM quiet often Dad...... what kind of attribute it can be? ..As long as a word brings His memory into mind, it’s His Name…….. After all, only a word is used to click memory button.

As such some call Him Raam..the All Permeating Lord....Rahim..the Giver...the Sustainer..The Beneficient..the Kind One..etc etc. These are called KIRTAM Names in Punajbi lingo.

In the light of this observation....my student observed that in Sukhmani ashtpadee 3..TERO NAO....Nirdhan ko tero Nao....usually translated as..To the POOR..wealth is YOUR NAME...to the shelterless..shelter is YOUR NAME...etc etc doesnt make sense.
It does make make sense Gyani jio, nirdhan means poor, so as per Gurbani, we are all poor without the Lord, do not take it as the world takes its meaning because Maya(including wealth) is useless for the Lord’s seeker.
ਪੰਨਾ 855, ਸਤਰ 9http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=855&punjabi=t&id=36426#l36426
ਧਨਵੰਤਾ ਅਰੁ ਨਿਰਧਨ ਮਨਈ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਕਾਨੀ ਰੇ ॥
Ḏẖanvanṯā ar nirḏẖan man▫ī ṯā kī kacẖẖū na kānī re.
It gives no special consideration to either the rich or the poor.
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ
ਪੰਨਾ 964, ਸਤਰ 2http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=964&punjabi=t&id=41401#l41401
ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਨਾਉ ਸੁ ਨਿਰਧਨੁ ਕਾਂਢੀਐ ॥
Jis no visrai nā▫o so nirḏẖan kāʼndẖī▫ai.
One who forgets the Name, is known as a poor person.
ਮਃ 5
If whole concept is taken, it actually looks more beautiful

The "NAME" as in the case of the POOR would be Someone who gives them WEALTH....a human donor.... Philanthropist.... like Bill Gates who follows GOD in his heart and wishes to donate his GOD given wealth among the POOR. This ACTION of Bill gates woudl be acting out God's KIRTAM NAME as THE BENEFICIENT..the GIVER..the SUSTAINER....
Not exactly, it has no value in Gurmat, giving away or charity is questioned many times and considered not important if the Lord is not remembered, in living in His love, purpose of the charity changes because
ਪੰਨਾ 56, ਸਤਰ 13http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=56&punjabi=t&id=2288#l2288
ਪੁੰਨ ਦਾਨ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਚੇ ਕਿਆ ਤਾਸੁ ॥
Punn ḏān cẖang▫ā▫ī▫ā bin sācẖe ki▫ā ṯās.
you may give donations to charity, and perform good deeds, but without the True One, what is the use of it all?
ਮਃ 1
So only the Charity considered worth is Lord’s Name (Given by Guru as per Gurbani). Lord’s name projects Lord’s image in mind in simple words, that is the real charity the seeker seeks, seekers of wealth are shooting in their own feet in context of spiritual world because all we wish actually drag us deep into attachment

. ਪੰਨਾ 91, ਸਤਰ 15http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=91&punjabi=t&id=3675#l3675
ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਦਇਆਲ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
Niṯ ḏevhu ḏān ḏa▫i▫āl parabẖ har nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā.
O Merciful God, please grant me the gift of continual meditation on the Lord's Name.
ਮਃ 4
Real GIVER is Him, Bill Gate is medium, spiritual seekers take all done is executed by Him, including what they do. Following Guru Vaak stresses the above stated idea in concept of Lord and other deeds praised by the world. Guru is not met, Lord is not realized, acting like Hari Chand(or Bill Gate) will get praise from the world but what kind of use this praise has as per Gurbani? He is “Karta” Active Creator, His ferformance is seen through the mediums
ਪੰਨਾ 174, ਸਤਰ 13http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=174&punjabi=t&id=7272#l7272
ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਸਭ ਮੰਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
Āpe jagaṯ upā▫iḏā mere goviḏā har ḏān ḏevai sabẖ mangī jī▫o.
He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord gives His gifts to all who beg for them.
ਮਃ 4
ਹਰੀਚੰਦੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਜਸੁ ਲੇਵੈ ॥
Harīcẖanḏ ḏān karai jas levai.
Hari Chand gave in charity, and earned public praise.
ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇ ਅਭੇਵੈ ॥
Bin gur anṯ na pā▫e abẖevai.
But without the Guru, he did not find the limits of the Mysterious Lord.
You see, mere acts of Hari Chand remained useless in spiritual journey due to not having a true Guru as Guru convinces who actually deserves the credit of all this

Similarly whoever builds HOMES for the HOMELESS is follwiing Gods NAME as the Sustainer..builder..giver etc...

SO NIrdhan KO DHan tero Naao means to a Poor man to be Given wealth is like "acting out" One of your Names....
You have misunderstood Guru vaak totally. It means the Lord is real wealth

NAAM should be WEALTH to ALL....why single out the POOR ONLY ??

As stated above, all are poor, when His Name is obtained then real wealth is obtained, what wealth is this that is left here for others. In spiritual world, what is big deal in worldly show becomes meaningless for the Lord Seeker.
Can the POOR survive ONLY on "Naam" ??
It is no about biological needs, it’s about spiritual diet, be aware.
Dont the wealthy need such "Naam" ??
Wealthy of this world are the poorest if they don’t have Lord in mind, Gurbani stresses on it, it is a concept, either take the whole or don’t, and never take it in parts otherwise it will be horrible interpretation
So to say ONLy the Nirdhan take your "Naam" as wealth is patronising translation...why wouldnt the welathy take it as "wealth" too ?? Since Gurbani is always correct..the transaltions interpretations must be faulty..
As put very correctly by Aman Singh ji on another thread, one is limited as per one’s limited knowledge, mastery over English doesn’t guarantee to make some one the best interpreter, Khuswant Singh is one good example of it and many others too fall in this category. I agree with you hundred percent, all translation I have come across is faulty regardless the author. Unfortunately, Gurbani literally cannot be translated in complete sense, only in essence, Guru Message can be conveyed. Worse things happen when translator fails to go beyond the word that carries much more weight then its appearance.
Gyani jio, I have just presented my views as I understand Gurbani, I have not intended to prove you wrong at all, so forgive me if my words hurt you any way.

[/FONT]

 

[pk70]

The moment we name the infinite, it ceases being The Infinite but becomes finite.
Infinite remains infinite only one becomes aware of His infinity, please do not limit concept of “the Infinite”, even who experienced Him didn’t say that.

To know Ik Ong kaar, the Infinite, is to measure one's actions and deeds when no one is looking.
It would have been better if you have said as Gurbani says “to know Him is to abandon “self”, after that actions change any way, one cannot measure one’s action if “Self” goes deep into “self righteousness” I admit, the idea you have conveyed is good though and I am just adding to it.

These are the building blocks that Gurbani teaches us to build our character on.

Ik Ong Kaar is an experience: "Gungei di Mittheaaiee - No words can describe Ik Ong Kaar.
Well said, I cannot agree more than that and that is another reason many fail to understand what Guru ji and Bhagatas say about their experience with HIM, a few seekers would get it.

Guru Granth says: "Merei Laal jeeoh, tera anth nah janah/ Tun jul, thul maheehal, bhurh bhur leena, tun aapei sarab samanah." - My beloved, you are Infinite, you are in organic and in inorganic form and you create yourself.

In other words, Ik Ong Kaar is Creative Energy - Ajauni Saibhang. So what name shall we give THE ONE that encompasses all that and beyond?
Wonderful names are already given by Guru ji” Ikkonkaar, Kartar, Pritama…”

And what I understand by NAAM is that it is the Tool Box which help us build the bridge from Me-ism to One-ism as mentioned before, which is called character .
I disagree. Tool box has limits, you need them to modify time to time. Naam is Him, falling for Him changes every thing in us like our behavior, deeds and approach to even deal with evil deeds or face the death

Note No disrespect is intended if my comments felt otherwise please forgive me.

[/FONT]

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

PK7o Ji,
Gurfateh.

You wrote..<<<Gyani jio, I have just presented my views as I understand Gurbani, I have not intended to prove you wrong at all, so forgive me if my words hurt you any way.<<<<<<

How could you even think such a thought Jio....IF I knew everything and was always correct..i wouldnt need anyone/anything.....NO..we are all learning....un-learning and RE_learning..ALL the time. Our Only Perfect Teacher..the One who really Knows ALL is GURU-GURUBANI...we are all somewhat inadequate interpreters in our own way..BUT we do complete the picture when we come together...
You NEVER have to write the above quote...to any reply of mine..ever. ( I used to get angry..offended....decades ago....when i was immature and young....NOT any more ( BUT again I am OLDER..not necessarily "mature" as compared to before...but the GURBANI has managed to douse many fires i have..one of them is krodh...)
[/FONT]

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Pk70,

Guru Fateh.

I think your posts are interesting. We all see different angles of the same prism called Gurbani. So when one says one disagrees with the other without giving a counter point but just twisiting what one has expressed, to me it is just for the sake of argument rather than pitching in. But I do appreciate your input and I thank you for that.

I will just give you one example in order to avoid any argument. Like you said Tool box is limited. Well, SGGS is only 1430 pages which is limited but not in its usage to make ourselves better. Now you can envision this in anyway you like.

I can dissect each of your statements and create a counter argument but that is not the point of this thread nor of my posts. Let's learn to pitch in, add and enhance others. Disagreements can be found the way each of us breathe if one wants to find them.

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

Guru Fateh.

Guru Fateh Vaheguruser ji

I think your posts are interesting. We all see different angles of the same prism called Gurbani. So when one says one disagrees with the other without giving a counter point but just twisiting what one has expressed, to me it is just for the sake of argument rather than pitching in. But I do appreciate your input and I thank you for that.

What do you mean by that? You are thanking me for what? You believe I twisted your views and I feel I didn’t. Elaborate it please because I didn’t mean what you are stating.

I will just give you one example in order to avoid any argument. Like you said Tool box is limited. Well, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only 1430 pages which is limited but not in its usage to make ourselves better. Now you can envision this in anyway you like.

Well this is pretty funny. Sree Guru Granth Sahib is not limited as tool box could be because Guru Message goes beyond modification, tools fail as new technology comes, some are modified, Sri Guru Granth Sahib doesn’t need that. The fact is this my respected SPN member, you have failed to acknowledge my last statement where I put healing words in case your mind feels pinch but it didn’t work unfortunately.

I can dissect each of your statements and create a counter argument but that is not the point of this thread nor of my posts.

Please do, I want to learn from you; however, threats are worthless.

Let's learn to pitch in, add and enhance others. Disagreements can be found the way each of us breathe if one wants to find them.

If you reread my response, you should see "I disagreed; I pitched in" but look what it has done to you? You are threatening to dissect my posts; you are thanking me but still accusing me of twisting your views. I used word "add” that is pitch in, did you get it? No. All I read is a reaction of an angry mind who is desperately trying to control to sound civil. Well, I am open to hear my limitations, if it is you who can teach me, what more I can ask for. Go ahead.

 

[shearwater]

Bill Gates is doing wonderful works through his charitable foundation. It is a fact, however, that the relatively poor in the United States collectively give more than all those of means and wealth. Jesus referred to a poor widow in the temple and taught that she had given more than the wealthy because she gave all she had. So I guess in terms of value, it is the percentage we have accumulated compared to the percentage we give to charitable causes is the measure of our charity. As I see the corruption of officials appointed by Barak Obama to be in his cabinet, I see that many of them did not pay their income taxes but while they were in another place and another time, they railed against those people who cheated on their income taxes. That is the hypocrisy of the politically in crowd of the wealthy in the United States.

 

[Admin]

Respected SPN'ers!! Let us all take a big breath and study one of the most important guideline of SPN:

Unity in Diversity: Many members on SPN, come from various religious and cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting opinions. Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know.

No need to stress this point further.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Bill Gates is doing wonderful works through his charitable foundation. It is a fact, however, that the relatively poor in the United States collectively give more than all those of means and wealth. Jesus referred to a poor widow in the temple and taught that she had given more than the wealthy because she gave all she had. So I guess in terms of value, it is the percentage we have accumulated compared to the percentage we give to charitable causes is the measure of our charity. As I see the corruption of officials appointed by Barak Obama to be in his cabinet, I see that many of them did not pay their income taxes but while they were in another place and another time, they railed against those people who cheated on their income taxes. That is the hypocrisy of the politically in crowd of the wealthy in the United States.

Shearwater,

I gather from your posts that you are a Christian but also find somethng positive in Sikhism to enhance your personal life. The ultimate goal of any humanbeing is to become better and live by examples so others can follow more easily and then in return they can do the same to pave way for the next generation to come. This is the universal quest of all mankind irrespective of our hue, creed or faith.

But there is a big difference between Christianity and Sikhism in one important matter. In Christianity works( deeds ) do not matter but acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God does, whereas in Sikhism works( deeds) is the most important dish at this table of Spiritual banquet.

Guru Gobind Singh our 10th Guru said," Rehat pyari mujh koh, Sikh piara nahin".

In other words, standing out as a Sikh with a Turban, long hair, etc etc, which is called Baana is nothing if one is not an outstanding person through works (deeds). And works( deeds) can only happen if we have the tools to breed goodness within.

I have no idea what religion Bill Gates belongs to (but I suspect he was born in a Christian household), which is an admirable thing in my opinion because as mentioned before, true religion is in the works (deeds).

That is what Sikhi teaches through SGGS. For me he has Gurmat values whether he has read the SGGS or not. In fact if you read the Bill of Rights, every page echoes Gurmat values.

The fact is that he spends billions of dollars to help to eradicate Aids, poverty etc etc. is remarkably commedable. His works( deeds) also influenced Warren Buffet ( one more who was born in a Christian household, yet never propheced his personal beliefs out in open), another mulit billionarie to give most of his fortune to Bill Gate's charity.

So let's not denegrate others whom we may disagree with but appreciate their works(deeds) that make a difference in this sea of humanity.

Last thing I would like to say is that this spiritual journey of ours is the journey of the individual. Each of us carry our own spiritual torch. Let's try to fuel the others' torches if we can, not try to put them out.


Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Somebody mentioned that the "Tool Box" metaphor for Gurmatt Tools is "inadequate"..

Yes Tools may change..due to new technology....etc etc BUT the "CONCEPT" of the Tool Box remains INTACT. There will always be "tools" and always need of a "tool Box" to put them in. Todays "wheel" is very very different from say the wheel of 100o years ago..BUT its still a "wheel" whether its the one on the Gadda in Rural Punjab or its on the latest Air Bus/ Boeing/Concorde airplane.
We must always go for the "Concept"....

 

[pk70]

Somebody mentioned that the "Tool Box" metaphor for Gurmatt Tools is "inadequate"..

Yes Tools may change..due to new technology....etc etc BUT the "CONCEPT" of the Tool Box remains INTACT. There will always be "tools" and always need of a "tool Box" to put them in. Todays "wheel" is very very different from say the wheel of 100o years ago..BUT its still a "wheel" whether its the one on the Gadda in Rural Punjab or its on the latest Air Bus/ Boeing/Concorde airplane.
We must always go for the "Concept"....

Respected Gyani jio
It was not other but me who think it is inappropriate to use “Tool Box” metaphor for SGGS Ji. My reason is application of perfection, metaphor should convey perfection if it is used in context of perfection. If it is still appropriated for some individuals, so be it, I prefer to move on though still I stand by my “questioning Toolbox to be SGGS.” Thanks for sharing your valuable views on it.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Somebody mentioned that the "Tool Box" metaphor for Gurmatt Tools is "inadequate"..

Yes Tools may change..due to new technology....etc etc BUT the "CONCEPT" of the Tool Box remains INTACT. There will always be "tools" and always need of a "tool Box" to put them in. Todays "wheel" is very very different from say the wheel of 100o years ago..BUT its still a "wheel" whether its the one on the Gadda in Rural Punjab or its on the latest Air Bus/ Boeing/Concorde airplane.
We must always go for the "Concept"....

Gyani ji

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the enlightening post. We all know that SGGS is filled with metaphors.

met·a·phor (m

t

-fôr

, -f

r) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]

1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or [SIZE=+0]"All the world's a stage"[/SIZE] [SIZE=+0](Shakespeare).[/SIZE]

So it is futile in my opinion to nit pick on the usage of a metaphor like Tool box for Naam or for SGGS. I use quite often the metaphor,' Recipe book' for SGGS. The beauty of SGGS is that no matter what words one uses, they do not do any justice to its treasures.

Thanks once again

Tejwant Singh

 

[pk70]

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or [SIZE=+0]"All the world's a stage"[/SIZE] [SIZE=+0](Shakespeare).

[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]Thanks Vaheguru seeker jio for quoting Shakespeare, one can now realize why stress is given on" implicit comparison"[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]

 

[Tejwant Singh]

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or [SIZE=+0]"All the world's a stage"[/SIZE] [SIZE=+0](Shakespeare).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]Thanks Vaheguru seeker jio for quoting Shakespeare, one can now realize why stress is given on" implicit comparison"[/SIZE][SIZE=+0][/SIZE]

Pk70,

Guru Fateh.

As you may have noticed that I just copied and pasted the meaning from the dictionary. As you would also see that it is part of the meaning of 'Metaphor'.Hence it was not me quoting him.

But thanks anyway.
Tejwant

 

[pk70]

pk70,

guru fateh.

As you may have noticed that i just copied and pasted the meaning from the dictionary. As you would also see that it is part of the meaning of 'metaphor'.hence it was not me quoting him.

but thanks anyway.
Tejwant

thanks jio

 

[Balkar Singh]

Dear Giani ji,
Gurfateh. It's a very sensitive subject , I fear to talk b'coz people like to believe what scholers , philosophers and grammerians say. Gurbani is not a subject of mere translation of words to words, but gives directions to reach the destination .
"Everything lies in these words ( of Gurbani )
but these words will shed away
the real word does not lie in them." Kabirji -340

The Naam is password to divinity,
it must be meditated upon,
Gurbani is the praise of God the Infinite,
the praise fills us with enthusiasm to move forward,
something is much more sweet there,
then the sweetness of -
"shakkar khand nivat gurh,maakhio majha dudh" Baba Faridji- 1379

we walk & talk but the Divinity lies in...... to be still and silent.
still and silent for a single moment , gives immence happiness - Bliss ! Anand !
the moment is worth much more then the worth of the worlds.
NAMASTG ANAAME
With warm regards,
Balkar Singh