Near Death Experiences: Reality, Dreams Or Other

[Harkiran Kaur]

I say this in view of the writings found within SGGSJ, both mystical n revelation. Terms such as avastha [realm], chautha pad [turyia], khand, brahmand, sachkhand [home of the soul], and so on have distinct and corresponding existence. On account you being an amritdhari Sikh, I'm at loss to discover why you've not brought them into the arena to expalin n support your claims ?

Bye for now -

Simple answer is, although I know the terms as per Gurbani, I am not Punjabi. Being english speaking and having a very limited Punjabi vocabulary I just automatically jump to English terms. sorry

 

[Original]

Simple answer is, although I know the terms as per Gurbani, I am not Punjabi. Being english speaking and having a very limited Punjabi vocabulary I just automatically jump to English terms. sorry

....no, pls don't embarrass me , but rather be proud for having attempted to decode set of complex laws phenomena [OBE] into an intelligible simplistic language. The danger of doing that of course, always is, that you loose the emotional content, for how can a European know the emotions of an Indian [composer]? Indian forms of art says something completely different from the European forms of art in relation to cultural, environmental and linguistic variations. It is difficult for westerns to understand the emotions of the eastern without having some kind of knowledge of their folklore, custom and traditional beliefs n values. That is not to say, you'd be discouraged but rather encouraged, and be positive and active as oppose to restrictive and negative.

On a conservative note, I think you'll do a damn good job writing up from within "khalsa" perspective to tell the world of the immortal HKJ.

Farewell !

 

[Ambarsaria]

Harkiran Kaur ji and Original ji thanks for providing well though out contributions in this thread. Perhaps it is time to do just a basic check and I observe the following;

• The Question is not whether NDEs/OBEs exist! No matter how deranged, unstable, on drugs or otherwise traumatized the person such experiences is or has been, if such are described these exist like any other fact of life. An expression comes to mind where they say their whole life flashed past them in traumatic experiences like near accidents, shocks or other stimulii. So basically NDEs/OBEs exist and are true.

• Now going from the fact that NDEs/OBEs exist we perhaps need to quantify if in any shape or form these are significantly unique from dreams, delirious states or hallucinations? If such are factual can these be replicated, perhaps there will be very few who will want to participate specially in NDEs? I have no facts to back it up but my conjecture is that these cannot be replicated by the same person or persons.

• Where observational science may be able to help along with philosophical thought is to analyze these experiences one by one as well as collectively to understand what kind of insight, knowledge or other aspects can be learnt from these.

Without being flippant, I really like those frog videos. Maybe scientists will or can observe or validate pre-freezing brain wave imprints with post unfreezing brave imprints. If these appear similar or correlated, we may have discovered something incredible. Simply that when NDE states happen, there may be unique imprints in the brain of a person which they are later able to recollect. Imagine space travel where if people can be frozen like frogs without loss of any memory to be woken up years later at another planet. I know it is not a good parallel as the frogs in the videos have unique anti-freeze liquids in their bodies which prevent cell damage while they freeze but just a thought.

Let us not restrict our thoughts due to our utmost respect or love for SGGSJ. Our Guru ji did not restrict our thinking they opened it up without limits and it is a uniqueness we as Sikhs should never forget.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[chazSingh]

Harkiran Kaur ji and Original ji thanks for providing well though out contributions in this thread. Perhaps it is time to do just a basic check and I observe the following;

• The Question is not whether NDEs/OBEs exist! No matter how deranged, unstable, on drugs or otherwise traumatized the person such experiences is or has been, if such are described these exist like any other fact of life. An expression comes to mind where they say their whole life flashed past them in traumatic experiences like near accidents, shocks or other stimulii. So basically NDEs/OBEs exist an dare true.

• Now going from the fact that NDEs/OBEs exist we perhaps need to quantify if in any shape or form these are significantly unique from dreams, delirious states or hallucinations? If such are factual can these be replicated, perhaps there will be very few who will want to participate specially in NDEs? I have no facts to back it up but my conjecture is that these cannot be replicated by the same person or persons.

• Where observational science may be able to help along with philosophical thought is to analyze these experiences one by one as well as collectively to understand what kind of insight, knowledge or other aspects can be learnt from these.

Without being flippant, I really like those frog videos. Maybe scientists will can observe or validate pre-freezing brain wave imprints with post unfreezing brave imprints. If these appear similar or correlated, we may have discovered something incredible. Simply that when NDE states happen, there may be unique imprints in the brain of a person which they are later able to recollect. Imagine space travel where if people can be frozen like frogs without loss of any memory to be woken up years later at another planet. I know it is not a good parallel as the frogs in the videos have unique anti-freeze liquids in their bodies which prevent cell damage while they freeze but just a thought.

Let us not restrict our thoughts due to our utmost respect or love for SGGSJ. Our Guru ji did not restrict our thinking they opened it up without limits and it is a uniqueness we as Sikhs should never forget.

Sat Sri Akal.

regular seva of Simran, and the right intention...and i'm 100% sure we can all come to know of the above...sorry...i should say 'we will be shown' and put through experiences that make the above known to us. Because it's all in Wahegurus Hands.

if you want to see London...along the way you come to know and see many other things and places...even though you're not intent to know of or see the other things...

Same with this Journey to Waheguru...you want to experience Waheguru, and along the way, many other things are seen, experienced as a result..

 

[Original]

Harkiran Kaur ji and Original ji thanks for providing well though out contributions in this thread. Perhaps it is time to do just a basic check and I observe the following;

• The Question is not whether NDEs/OBEs exist! No matter how deranged, unstable, on drugs or otherwise traumatized the person such experiences is or has been, if such are described these exist like any other fact of life. An expression comes to mind where they say their whole life flashed past them in traumatic experiences like near accidents, shocks or other stimulii. So basically NDEs/OBEs exist an dare true.

• Now going from the fact that NDEs/OBEs exist we perhaps need to quantify if in any shape or form these are significantly unique from dreams, delirious states or hallucinations? If such are factual can these be replicated, perhaps there will be very few who will want to participate specially in NDEs? I have no facts to back it up but my conjecture is that these cannot be replicated by the same person or persons.

• Where observational science may be able to help along with philosophical thought is to analyze these experiences one by one as well as collectively to understand what kind of insight, knowledge or other aspects can be learnt from these.

Without being flippant, I really like those frog videos. Maybe scientists will can observe or validate pre-freezing brain wave imprints with post unfreezing brave imprints. If these appear similar or correlated, we may have discovered something incredible. Simply that when NDE states happen, there may be unique imprints in the brain of a person which they are later able to recollect. Imagine space travel where if people can be frozen like frogs without loss of any memory to be woken up years later at another planet. I know it is not a good parallel as the frogs in the videos have unique anti-freeze liquids in their bodies which prevent cell damage while they freeze but just a thought.

Let us not restrict our thoughts due to our utmost respect or love for SGGSJ. Our Guru ji did not restrict our thinking they opened it up without limits and it is a uniqueness we as Sikhs should never forget.

Sat Sri Akal.

Sir

If you were to take the Sun out of the Solar System there would be no life [Science], likewise, if you were to take the soul out of the body there will be no spirit [Theology]. Can knowledge n experience be had in the absence of such existentialities ?

The butterfly knows nothing of lift, wind speed, air resistance, vacuum, or indeed physics in general. This does not prevent it from flying because it was born to fly. Emerged from the primordial soup of creation with the ability to do something it could never understand. Similarly, the Soul through evolutionary experimentation of her divine being, takes to the wings of love to fly home [sachkhand] to her true mate, AP. Why search anywhere when it is all enshrined in SGGSJ.

Good night n Godbless

 

[Original]

Ambarsaria Ji

I place some of my own thoughts of the same for your reflections, treat it as an invitation to further evolve the spiritual you.

Sikh spiritual is to an end of freeing the soul from the body whilst one is alive. That is to say, why wait for death to come when you can learn to die whilst still alive [jeevat maryia bhav jal teryia - Guru Arjun Dev Ji, p775 SGGJ].

Baba Ji Nanak classically weaves the same, thus,

"jaisa jal main kamal neeralam mugi neesana
surat [consciousness] shabd [sound current] bhav sagar taryia Nanak nam vee kha na" [p938 SGGSJ]

[Nanak says, although both the lotus flower and the duck live in water they don't remain attached but detached and so should you human and, through connecting your surat to shabd fly away like the duck does on dry wings to the heavenly glories from whence you came].

Gur Ghar is quite elaborate in its theoretical reasoning and provides clear cut methodology to achieve the same through regular nam simran [meditation]. There is a method to journey beyond the world of senses and reason. The Sufi poet Rumi has this to say;

"...as long as you do not die while living, how will you obtain true wisdom ? Die therefore and come out of your body for you have died many a time of which you have no memory. And yet you still remain behind the veil of ignorance and the true method of dying you do not learn" [Edit: cannot provide source, off the cuff information to advance point in question, but can on request raid my archives for further studies]

And, Bhagat Kabir, says:

"...Jis marne te jag dare, mere man anand, Marne te hi paiye puran parmanand." [ ...the death, which the world fears, I rejoice. Only at death do I meet the absolute Guru, p1365 SGGSJ].

The beauty of all I say is to be found from within the Sikh "spiritual", particularly when reference is made of the same by Guru Amardas Ji on page 124 SGGSJ. There Maharaj Ji is blatantly telling us what, where and how it is to be found and experienced.



Goodnight Sir & Godbless

 

[Ishna]

Original Ji, please edit your post to reference Gurbani correctly or I'll be forced to remove it. We are running a tight ship. Your cooperation is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

I
But it was not to be, and in my head, god laughed at me, soon I was on an operating table, and they were sticking things in my heart, I remember saying to the surgeon that if he needed any laptops, I would give him a discount, he looked at me seriously, and said, good, I need 6, and I'll hold you to that (he did, and I did), within a short period, he stented two arteries that were completely blocked, and the blood flowed again, I thought shift was over, but it wasn't.

maybe its those that love life that have these experiences? For me every day is an adventure, and very possibly my last, maybe these experiences are just not for those like me, to paraphrase the line from a book, not for madmen only.

"Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on thee
And I'll forgive thy great big one on me."
Robert Frost

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

In April, it will be 10 years ago I had a major stroke and died. Twice. I got kicked out of heaven twice in one night. I liked it there and didn't want to leave. I was told, "No sane person would want to leave, especially to go to earth...But your work on earth isn't finished." I hemmed and hawed and eventually returned to earth and just as I was landing back in my body, I shot out heavenward again only to be waved back into a practically useless body. Such is life. Such is death.
'
"What am I supposed to do on earth?"
"You know."
"Tell me anyway."
"Serve. Sewa. Your husband needs you."
"I don't need him, though."
"True and irrelevant. He needs you."

When he died, I figured my work was done and it was time for me to rejoin the heavenly host at Guru's feet in the land of Peace and Truth.. That was in September 2011. It's now January 2016 and I'm still here, serving as best I know how.

My NDE in 2006 was long and involved and very cool, and I'm not telling it here. Was it real? Depends on your definition of "real," I suppose. It changed my life. It gave my life purpose. It destroyed any fear of death I might have had. It made my life here bearable, even fun. That's real enough for me.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Inderjeet Kaur ji I thanks for your post and so well conveyed.

I respect your privacy to not share but was it all that it is made up to be (land of milk and honey swans floating in pure crystal water while one rests peacefully in all that lovely surroundings) plus some or minus some. If you don't share no further, it is no problem at all; be well and cherish.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

Inderjeet Kaur ji I thanks for your post and so well conveyed.

I respect your privacy to not share but was it all that it is made up to be (land of milk and honey swans floating in pure crystal water while one rests peacefully in all that lovely surroundings) plus some or minus some. If you don't share no further, it is no problem at all; be well and cherish.

Sat Sri Akal.

Everything was fluid in the sense it could look like whatever you wanted. I was mostly in nature, forests and, yes, crystal springs. I saw no cities. I met many people, but no family members since I had to go back.)

I think the best description is that if you took everything that is good and beautiful and loving in our universe - our universe is really pretty big - it would not be even one molecule of the positivity there. Everything was the purest love, perfection and yet not overwhelming, quite gentle. You can't imagine it...I really didn't want to leave.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Everything was fluid in the sense it could look like whatever you wanted. I was mostly in nature, forests and, yes, crystal springs. I saw no cities. I met many people, but no family members since I had to go back.)

I think the best description is that if you took everything that is good and beautiful and loving in our universe - our universe is really pretty big - it would not be even one molecule of the positivity there. Everything was the purest love, perfection and yet not overwhelming, quite gentle. You can't imagine it...I really didn't want to leave.

Inderjeet Kaur ji thanks indeed. Two things sprang to my mind right away and this is just some personal observation. If what you say turns to be then;

1. The world indeed could be what you explained but it is us who don't think of it like that or try to make it so.

2. If you have lived a good life and have not realized what I stated in 1 then you will peacefully and lovingly could experience it say, if the creator so wishes when you exit the physical.

In a way it exemplifies that the entrance into this world is auspicious and a joy and some fortunate will experience the same on exit.

I share an anecdotal story here. My mom used to talk about her parents. Specifically she talked about the passing of his father. He was aged but otherwise healthy for his age. The night before he passed away he told his wife, I am going to be leaving my dear one and so on. Peacefully he went to bed and to sleep never to wake up.

So what brings such to know to people, was it near death experience followed by death! The more we search the more we will come to know.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: There is a corollary to NDE in that let us think of a child. Do they have BBE (Before Birth Experiences) that they may be able to verbalize one day? These are all fascinating areas for exploration; as what is living but an experience. The only trap is to start making theories out of all these without due diligence or rigor.

What are the tutles riding the Hippo thinking!

 

[Harry Haller]

Everything was fluid in the sense it could look like whatever you wanted. I was mostly in nature, forests and, yes, crystal springs. I saw no cities. I met many people, but no family members since I had to go back.)

I think the best description is that if you took everything that is good and beautiful and loving in our universe - our universe is really pretty big - it would not be even one molecule of the positivity there. Everything was the purest love, perfection and yet not overwhelming, quite gentle. You can't imagine it...I really didn't want to leave.

If I may ask a question, personally, such a place would not interest me, for my own reasons, but for others, how much of an incentive is the thought of such a place in being a Sikh?

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

If I may ask a question, personally, such a place would not interest me, for my own reasons, but for others, how much of an incentive is the thought of such a place in being a Sikh?

For me, none at all. It is simply an interesting experience that I had. I am a better Sikh because of it, I think, because it focuses me on sewa.

For me, being a Sikh has nothing to do with pie in the sky by and by; it is a joyful and meaningful way for me to live until this decrepit old body gives up the ghost.

 

[Original]

Good morning Everyone,

Inderjeet Ji, thank you for sharing with us your personal experiences - means a lot !

In April, it will be 10 years ago I had a major stroke and died. Twice. I got kicked out of heaven twice in one night. I liked it there and didn't want to leave. I was told, "No sane person would want to leave, especially to go to earth...But your work on earth isn't finished." I hemmed and hawed and eventually returned to earth and just as I was landing back in my body, I shot out heavenward again only to be waved back into a practically useless body. Such is life. Such is death.
'

...you're not the only one, Guru Gobind Singh Ji was of a similar disposition when he writes of the same in Bachittar Nantak, thus;
Ab main apnee katha bakhaano,
Tap saadhat iih bidh muhe aano.
Hemkunt Parbat hai jahaan,
Sapt sring sobhit hai tahaan.

1. The world indeed could be what you explained but it is us who don't think of it like that or try to make it so.

...Gur Ghar nudges us from time to time of the same, thus: mann tu jyot saroop ha apna mool pehchan. p441 SGGSJ [hey mind you're that eternal light, recognise thee self as such].

2. If you have lived a good life and have not realized what I stated in 1 then you will peacefully and lovingly could experience it say, if the creator so wishes when you exit the physical.

....not quite. See the next reply.....

In a way it exemplifies that the entrance into this world is auspicious and a joy and some fortunate will experience the same on exit.

...of course it is auspicious, Gur Ghar says on p12 of SGGSJ, thus: Bhai parapat manukh dey hariya Govind milan ki teri bhariya [hey human, this human form is for meeting with God, here n now]. Sikh Ideology is to that end, that one should avail the opportunity of this human birth and strive for perfection. From a conceptual perspective there is no exit but one of "state of being", that is to say, what Inderjeet thus expressed is a state of being from a mere physical to a divine spirtual. Guru Amardas Ji speaks of the same on page 644 of SGGSJ, thus: Ghar hi main Amrit barbhoor ha [that which you seeketh is within thee, but you do not see bcoz the mind seeketh elsewhere for you've evolved as such a creature].

I share an anecdotal story here. My mom used to talk about her parents. Specifically she talked about the passing of his father. He was aged but otherwise healthy for his age. The night before he passed away he told his wife, I am going to be leaving my dear one and so on. Peacefully he went to bed and to sleep never to wake up.

.....usually is the case [rare] with a soul that has been blessed with a "nam daan".

So what brings such to know to people, was it near death experience followed by death! The more we search the more we will come to know.

...you're a spiritual being having experience as Ambarsaria Ji, an internal being, Death is a state of non-being in the physical dimension.

The operative word in all that has transpired so far in this thread is what Inderjeet called "molecule", meaning moment beyond time n space and that really is REALITY.

Enjoy the day !

 

[Ambarsaria]

If I may ask a question, personally, such a place would not interest me, for my own reasons, but for others, how much of an incentive is the thought of such a place in being a Sikh?

Harry ji what is wrong with such a place? I know if it is forever I wouldn't like it either,

(sorry for some non-English distraction below)

I wouldn't mind being the prince in the following (albeit without the earrings ),

and let others fight over me as follows,

Of course Maya distracts us,

Harry ji for me this business of soul body is pretty simple. I keep re-iterating with different phraseology the following;

"Our soul is simply a heritage of our parents, their parents and so on modified by where and when and how we interact all through our life with life and inanimate that we come across. At death we will be no different than our parents in concept and their parents and all that has been around, we may leave a physical heritage of part of us through if their are off-springs or through other branches of people we are closely or remotely related to all the way to Adam-Eve . , or through our interaction memories, our imprints in material artifacts, etc. It is all a pandora's box of everything and physical is just one part of all this. I hope it is clear.

Example: Guru Nanak Dev ji's soul is in part in all of us through SGGJ and in many others through biological lineage, etc.

Physically I am of earth and will become earth and earth is of another body and become of that and so on, and it is all irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Note all around you, be as well as you can be, leave as well as you can leave.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji what is wrong with such a place? I know if it is forever I wouldn't like it either,

I guess, without insulting anyone, because its false, I spent a lot of time in such places, usually thanks to various substances, and its just very false, I think folks forget that it is the problems, the fight, the struggle that actually defines who we are and keeps us alive, a time consuming job, time consuming relationships, problems in our life, our character is moulded from all this, sure, its nice now and then to have a holiday, not that I would know, I have not had one myself for 7 years, in fact, I will share something with you today, my relationship has broken down, and I left this morning saying I would go away for a few days, first few days in 7 years, and I am sitting here at the shop with no idea what to do. To go back to the point, a place like that for a few days would be fine and dandy, but eternity? with no challenges? no problems to solve? nothing to learn? There is not a thing in this world I have lusted after, that I have got bored with when I have had it, why should a place like this be any different? You may say that only those that are enlightened enter such a place, but learning, wow moments, are worth their weight in gold, its why I love being corrected, because if I have been properly corrected, I have learned something new, fantastic!

Back to what to do now, no idea, I am tempted to go home and try and make another go of it, rather than going out into the great beyond for the weekend, I am looking at the stack of hardware that needs to be put on line, I really enjoy that, will my sunday spent in a hotel be more fun than being here, with the Flock of seagulls on at full blast, whilst I dance around my shop singing and typing, I do not think so, I think I will be bored, in fact, I do not think there is anything I could ingest, or experience right now that sounds better than being active and productive.

 

[Harry Haller]

"Our soul is simply a heritage of our parents, their parents and so on modified by where and when and how we interact all through our life with life and inanimate that we come across. At death we will be no different than our parents in concept and their parents and all that has been around, we may leave a physical heritage of part of us through if their are off-springs or through other branches of people we are closely or remotely related to all the way to Adam-Eve . , or through our interaction memories, our imprints in material artifacts, etc. It is all a pandora's box of everything and physical is just one part of all this. I hope it is clear.

clear? its practically burned into my brain since you first wrote it................

 

[Original]

"Our soul is simply a heritage of our parents, their parents

...bang on ! couldn't have said it better.

and so on modified

..."evolution" if I may say so. You see, we evolve to become better for survival as species [Darwinian] and achieve ultimately teleological end [philosophy]. What are parents were, we're not and what we are, our children wont be, hence the cycle continues until the soul attains its true form, that is, spiritual realisation.

At death we will be no different than our parents in concept and their parents and all that has been around

...religion [say Sikhism] offers the afterlife factor to provide some sort of relief if you like, or synthesis in dealing with the prospect of dying. Moreover, it arguably epitomises our attempt to assuage the fear of finitude, it offers existential solace

we may leave a physical heritage of part of us through if their are off-springs or through other branches of people we are closely or remotely related to all the way to Adam-Eve

...science calls it "microchimerism", that is, most of us are walking, talking patchwork of cells, with emissaries from our mother, children or even our siblings infiltrating every part of our body.

It is all a pandora's box of everything and physical is just one part of all this. I hope it is clear.

...physical is just "one" dimension of human experience. There is spiritual, mental and emotional, as I write.

Example: Guru Nanak Dev ji's soul is in part in all of us through SGGJ and many others through biological lineage, etc.

....not only that, but look at Guru Gobind Singh Ji "living" and moving amongst us everyday in "shabd saroop", meaning, in name as SINGHKAUR. It is us that don't live up to the ideals of our name giving father. Of course, that, as we all know is the human condition.

A very good summary Sir !

 

[Tejwant Singh]

What is a Soul? We must know what it means to an individual or to a collective group before we attempt to link it with our ancestors.

Input from all is requested.