Need Of True Guru

[AmbarDhara]

O Nanak, make the True Guru your friend;

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
SGGS JI
ANG 22

SATGURU PRASAAD


ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੨੦॥
naanak sathagur meeth kar sach paavehi dharageh jaae ||4||20||
O Nanak, make the True Guru your friend; going to His Court, you shall obtain the True Lord. ||4||20||




Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​

 

[Pyramid]

uncle ji,

i was trying to stimulate conversation or "vichaar" with this question. yes, i had naam drir at amrit sanchar. but not everyone on this forum is amritdhari. and we are all at different stages of learning and understanding. i was simply hoping to encourage people to discuss the gurbani they were posting.

apparently i have made a mistake in asking this. i will refrain from this in the future.

Beta Jasleen Ji,

I didnt see that your post dipicts that you want the answer for all. It clearly said- 'I am a beginer and I sometimes dont understand' as far as I can recall.

Anyways, even if you dont like the answer, I dont think others should change their response according to your choice. Wait or Ask your question again- may be somebody who wants to share their knowledge will appear and answer it.

Live and let others live.- this is Gurmat.

Everybody has their own way of disscussing, BASED ON THEIR LEVEL.

We must tolerate all. Others shouldn't be expected to halt because you dont get your question answered in YOUR SPECIFIC WAY.

I am very sorry for leading you towards Gurbani also- Please Forgive Me, I hope you can.

Tuhada Das
Yograj

 

[Sardara123]

Without Contemplating the Word of the Shabad, no one becomes fearless.
True Guru Soothes us.



slok mÚ 3 ]
iqRsnw dwDI jil mueI jil jil kry pukwr ]
siqgur sIql jy imlY iPir jlY n dUjI vwr ]
nwnk ivxu nwvY inrBau ko nhI ijcru sbid n kry vIcwru ]1]


Shalok, Third Mehl:
Consumed by desires, the world is burning and dying; burning and burning, it cries out.
But if it meets with the cooling and soothing True Guru, it does not burn any longer.
O Nanak, without the Name, and without contemplating the Word of the Shabad, no one becomes fearless. ||1|| ANG 588

 

[Astroboy]

A True Seeker always has the invisible guidance of the True Guru. The Omnipresent Guru hovers around the aspirant likened to a mother who watches her infant crawling around curiously.

Any obstacle put before the aspirant only strengthens him/her.

The prayer of the Lord's humble servant is never goes vain.
-SGGS 819​

All thoughts we have are in a way prayers as these create our reality. The all pervading creative force is ever creating our reality, the world, the universe. The reality that we are experiencing is in accordance to our present thoughts and belief pattern. These patterns are crystallized thought energy which acts on our body’s physiology and has produced pathological changes and result in diseases. These thought patterns activate universal forces and create our circumstances and situations.

Everlasting peace
Make chastity your furnace, patience your smithy,
The Master's word your anvil, and true knowledge your hammer.
Take awe of God your bellows and with it kindle the fire of austerity,
And in the crucible of love, melt the nectar Divine,
Only in such a mint, can man be cast into the Word.
But they alone who are favoured by Him, can take unto this Path,​

0 Nanak, on whom He looks with grace, He fills with Everlasting Peace.

(Japji Sahib)

 

[kaur-1]

true, but how do we find the name? i see a lot of shabads telling us not to forget the name, please post how we find it in the first place.

I am going to be a busy body and butt in this thread with a very short reply. I feel that before we find "Naam" we need to have a basic idea of what 'naam' means.

In brief:

True Guru (Shabad Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) is needed to discover "Naam" which also contains 'Naam'(ie in gurbani).

'Naam' or 'shabad' is in us and around us.

Sometime's you may read on the www that the Sikhs are 'the seekers of truth', well "Naam/Shabad/Gurbani/Hukam" is the 'Truth'.

(Ref: Ang 1 SGGSJ)-Mool Mantar


EkOngKar - One universal God
SatNaam - Supreme Eternal existence Truth is the Naam

(If I am not mistaken !!!->)
Therefore Naam is Ekongkar in sargun form ie the supreme divine power/light/essence/sound current...... of EkOngKar

The True Guru is therefore needed to discover this 'truth' and make a connection with the 'supreme divine power/light/essence/sound current..... of EkOngKar' which exist in us in a hidden form.

..............to be continued another day in the recent 'Naam thread' in this forum

 

[AmbarDhara]

i was trying to stimulate conversation or "vichaar" with this question. yes, i had naam drir at amrit sanchar. but not everyone on this forum is amritdhari. and we are all at different stages of learning and understanding. i was simply hoping to encourage people to discuss the gurbani they were posting.

Jasleen Ji, you have solved one part of the problem.

You say that you have naam Drir- So you are the poerfect one among us, who has PERFECT Knowledge and Experience of Naam.

I dont understand what are you waiting for?

I posting this to encourage the most knowledgable among us- Jasleen Ji- to come forward and share her knowledge about Naam with us moors.

Dont be shy Jasleen Ji, you been trying to encourage others, while you kept your jewel hidden.

But Guru Ji says- No body can hide this Jewel.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE WITH US- I BEG OF YOU.

 

[AmbarDhara]

Dear aad0002 Ji,

I misunderstood yesterday- I thought the rule was only for the first post of the thread. Now I get it- me moor.

Thanks for correcting my mistakes from yesterday- thankyou thankyou thankyou dear.

 

[AmbarDhara]

I am going to be a busy body and butt in this thread with a very short reply. I feel that before we find "Naam" we need to have a basic idea of what 'naam' means.

In brief:

True Guru (Shabad Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) is needed to discover "Naam" which also contains 'Naam'(ie in gurbani).

'Naam' or 'shabad' is in us and around us.

Sometime's you may read on the www that the Sikhs are 'the seekers of truth', well "Naam/Shabad/Gurbani/Hukam" is the 'Truth'.

(Ref: Ang 1 SGGSJ)-Mool Mantar


EkOngKar - One universal God
SatNaam - Supreme Eternal existence Truth is the Naam

(If I am not mistaken !!!->)
Therefore Naam is Ekongkar in sargun form ie the supreme divine power/light/essence/sound current...... of EkOngKar

The True Guru is therefore needed to discover this 'truth' and make a connection with the 'supreme divine power/light/essence/sound current..... of EkOngKar' which exist in us in a hidden form.

..............to be continued another day in the recent 'Naam thread' in this forum

We need the true Guru for everything.

Guru Ji tells again and again to Drink this Nectar- Naam: Name of the Lord. He tells us to renounce our self-conceit. He tells us to become the dust of the feet of the Holy.

He tells us again and again this jewel can only be received by those whom He blesses Himself with His own Mercy.

We need the true Guru to guide us in everything.

 

[kaur-1]

Yes we definetely do need SatGuru's guidance and assistance for everything.

p/s: My last brief post was worded in response to jasleen_kaur's question regarding naam.

 

[AmbarDhara]

It is very beautiful post kaur ji, i couldn't stop myself from responding to it Ji.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Jasleen Ji, you have solved one part of the problem.

You say that you have naam Drir- So you are the poerfect one among us, who has PERFECT Knowledge and Experience of Naam.

I dont understand what are you waiting for?

I posting this to encourage the most knowledgable among us- Jasleen Ji- to come forward and share her knowledge about Naam with us moors.

Dont be shy Jasleen Ji, you been trying to encourage others, while you kept your jewel hidden.

But Guru Ji says- No body can hide this Jewel.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE WITH US- I BEG OF YOU.

WHAT??? when did i ever claim perfection or anything near it? please do not insult me like this, it's very disturbing.

i am nothing, i'm sorry that asking for help has caused so many problems.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Beta Jasleen Ji,

I didnt see that your post dipicts that you want the answer for all. It clearly said- 'I am a beginer and I sometimes dont understand' as far as I can recall.

Anyways, even if you dont like the answer, I dont think others should change their response according to your choice. Wait or Ask your question again- may be somebody who wants to share their knowledge will appear and answer it.

Live and let others live.- this is Gurmat.

Everybody has their own way of disscussing, BASED ON THEIR LEVEL.

We must tolerate all. Others shouldn't be expected to halt because you dont get your question answered in YOUR SPECIFIC WAY.

I am very sorry for leading you towards Gurbani also- Please Forgive Me, I hope you can.

Tuhada Das
Yograj

please forgive my poor use of english. i never meant to imply that any others are as low as i am, so i did not use "we". i appologize for any confusion.

please never appologize for leading ANYONE to gurbani. what a horrible thing to say.

i think i have been very confusing in my words. i'm very sorry for this.

 

[Archived_Member1]

I am going to be a busy body and butt in this thread with a very short reply. I feel that before we find "Naam" we need to have a basic idea of what 'naam' means.

In brief:

True Guru (Shabad Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) is needed to discover "Naam" which also contains 'Naam'(ie in gurbani).

'Naam' or 'shabad' is in us and around us.

Sometime's you may read on the www that the Sikhs are 'the seekers of truth', well "Naam/Shabad/Gurbani/Hukam" is the 'Truth'.

(Ref: Ang 1 SGGSJ)-Mool Mantar


EkOngKar - One universal God
SatNaam - Supreme Eternal existence Truth is the Naam

(If I am not mistaken !!!->)
Therefore Naam is Ekongkar in sargun form ie the supreme divine power/light/essence/sound current...... of EkOngKar

The True Guru is therefore needed to discover this 'truth' and make a connection with the 'supreme divine power/light/essence/sound current..... of EkOngKar' which exist in us in a hidden form.

..............to be continued another day in the recent 'Naam thread' in this forum

thanks bhenji, this is exactly the kind of vichaar i had hoped to encourage.

 

[AmbarDhara]

WHAT??? when did i ever claim perfection or anything near it? please do not insult me like this, it's very disturbing.

i am nothing, i'm sorry that asking for help has caused so many problems.

I read your comments about naamdrirr, in my understanding naamdrirr is pakka in naam drirr is 'solid', 'perfect', 'Implanted', 'Firmly Fixed', 'holding Tight'. So I thought you do have Naam Firmly Fixed within you, so I asked you to share your knowledge and experience of it.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I had no intent to insult you. I am extremely sorry for making you feel this way. Maaf Karna, galtee hogaee unknowingly.

Actually your asking question had helped me a lot. The more I asked Guru Ji, the more He taught me through Gurbani, very many thanks.

I am asking again for your forgiveness I didn't know drirr has other meanings too. Can you please explain what did you mean by it.

Thanks


Dear kaur Ji,

Thanks for your posts, at least Jasleen Bhenji will not have narazgee any more. Thanks. I really liked it too, I think I said this earlier as well. Please accept it again.

 

[Sardara123]

Jasleen Ji and All,

I am the one who started this topic, Jasleen Ji you asked the question by grabing a few lines from my post.


As I am reading through the thread, it appears that Jasleen Bhenji feels insulted when another member asked her the same question to explain the same thing she herself asked before.

SO WAS ALL THIS QUESTION ASKING HAPPENED TO BE WITH A MOTIVE TO INSULT ME?

SO MANY TIMES THE SAME QUESTION WAS ASKED IN A ROUND ABOUT MANNER TO ALL THOSE WHO POST GURBANI AND ALL THE KIND OF COMMENTS WERE MADE ON THEM. WAS ALL THE INTENT HERE TO INSULT THE PEOPLE WHO DEPEND ON GURBANI INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN WRITTING? EVEN ONE MEMBER WENT TO THE EXTENT OF CLASSIFYING THEM AS A CULT.

CAN SOMEBODY THROW SOME LIGHT ON THIS, PLEASE.

BECAUSE HER COMMENT IS REALLY DISTURBING.

 

[Sardara123]

Thankyou aad Ji,

I am glad and very much thankful to you for dealing the issue of 'cult calling to those who prefer Gurbani' statement.

Thanks again.

 

[AmbarDhara]

Good, very good Aad0002 Ji,

Thanks for taking care of this issue.
Gurmat Vichaar section in a Sikh Philosophy network must not let people who use Gurbani be called cults. Gurbani is a Sikh's everything.

Thankyou

 

[spnadmin]

AmbarDhara ji, all in the thread. Glad we are all trying to be good companions to one another. Good friends. So let's go back to our vichaar with friendship in the sangat. Let me start things off, and others can reply.

Guruji is saying in Siri Raag, that we never know when we will draw our last breath. Love that joins us together comes from His Grace. But this is possible only when we are united with Him. Like birds who peck at the edges of a pond one day and are gone the next, so the play that we are in is very short. What endures is His Love. In remembrance of His immaculate name, by allowing ourselves to be pierced by his Word, we realize that there is nothing more that we need to do. And that we have discovered what is truly important.



ਸਚਾ ਨੇਹੁ ਨ ਤੁਟਈ ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
sachaa naehu n thuttee jae sathigur bhaettai soe ||
True love shall not be broken, if the True Guru is met.

ਗਿਆਨ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
giaan padhaarathh paaeeai thribhavan sojhee hoe ||
Obtaining the wealth of spiritual wisdom, the understanding of the three worlds is acquired.

ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਕਾ ਗਾਹਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੭॥
niramal naam n veesarai jae gun kaa gaahak hoe ||7||
So become a customer of merit, and do not forget the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||7||

ਖੇਲਿ ਗਏ ਸੇ ਪੰਖਣੂੰ ਜੋ ਚੁਗਦੇ ਸਰ ਤਲਿ ॥
khael geae sae pankhanoon jo chugadhae sar thal ||
Those birds which peck at the shore of the pool have played and have departed.

ਘੜੀ ਕਿ ਮੁਹਤਿ ਕਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਖੇਲਣੁ ਅਜੁ ਕਿ ਕਲਿ ॥
gharree k muhath k chalanaa khaelan aj k kal ||
In a moment, in an instant, we too must depart. Our play is only for today or tomorrow.

ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਲਹਿ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਚਾ ਪਿੜੁ ਮਲਿ ॥੮॥
jis thoon maelehi so milai jaae sachaa pirr mal ||8||
But those whom You unite, Lord, are united with You; they obtain a seat in the Arena of Truth. ||8||

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਊਪਜੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
bin gur preeth n oopajai houmai mail n jaae ||
Without the Guru, love does not well up, and the filth of egotism does not depart.

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
sohan aap pashhaaneeai sabadh bhaedh patheeaae ||
One who recognizes within himself that, ""He is me"", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥
guramukh aap pashhaaneeai avar k karae karaae ||9||
When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੇਲੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
miliaa kaa kiaa maeleeai sabadh milae patheeaae ||
Why speak of union to those who are already united with the Lord? Receiving the Shabad, they are satisfied.



Sri Raag
Guru Naanak Dev
Ang 60

 

[Sardara123]

Without the true Guru, we can't come to know the Truth. True Guru, through His teachings show us the right path. He clears all our doubts.


Guru Ji explains in the following Shabad

Shabad Gurbani:

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
Brmy Bwih n ivJvY jy BvY idsMqr dysu ]
AMqir mYlu n auqrY iDRgu jIvxu iDRgu vysu ]
horu ikqY Bgiq n hoveI ibnu siqgur ky aupdys ]1]
mn ry gurmuiK Agin invwir ]
gur kw kihAw min vsY haumY iqRsnw mwir ]1] rhwau ]
mnu mwxku inrmolu hY rwm nwim piq pwie ]
imil sqsMgiq hir pweIAY gurmuiK hir ilv lwie ]
Awpu gieAw suKu pwieAw imil sllY sll smwie ]2]
ijin hir hir nwmu n cyiqE su Aauguix AwvY jwie ]
ijsu sqguru purKu n ByitE su Baujil pcY pcwie ]
iehu mwxku jIau inrmolu hY ieau kaufI bdlY jwie ]3]
ijMnw sqguru ris imlY sy pUry purK sujwx ]
gur imil Baujlu lµGIAY drgh piq prvwxu ]
nwnk qy muK aujly Duin aupjY sbdu nIswxu ]4]22]



English Translation:

Siree Raag, First Mehl:
The fire of doubt is not extinguished, even by wandering through foreign lands and countries.
If inner filth is not removed, one's life is cursed, and one's clothes are cursed.
There is no other way to perform devotional worship, except through the Teachings of the True Guru. ||1||
O mind, become Gurmukh, and extinguish the fire within.
Let the Words of the Guru abide within your mind; let egotism and desires die. ||1||Pause||
The jewel of the mind is priceless; through the Name of the Lord, honor is obtained.
Join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, and find the Lord. The Gurmukh embraces love for the Lord.
Give up your selfishness, and you shall find peace; like water mingling with water, you shall merge in absorption. ||2||
Those who have not contemplated the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, are unworthy; they come and go in reincarnation.
One who has not met with the True Guru, the Primal Being, is bothered and bewildered in the terrifying world-ocean.
This jewel of the soul is priceless, and yet it is being squandered like this, in exchange for a mere shell. ||3||
Those who joyfully meet with the True Guru are perfectly fulfilled and wise.
Meeting with the Guru, they cross over the terrifying world-ocean. In the Court of the Lord, they are honored and approved.
O Nanak, their faces are radiant; the Music of the Shabad, the Word of God, wells up within them. ||4||22||

source:SikhiToTheMax



Punjabi Translation of the Shabad:

pdArQ:- BrmY—BOx nwl [ Bwih—A`g [ ivJvY—bu`JdI [ dysu idsMqr—dysu dys AMqr—hor hor dys [ AMqir—AMdrlI [ iDRgu—iPtkwr-jog [ vysu—ByK, iqAwg vwlw ilbws [ horu ikqY—iksy hor QW [1[
gurmuiK—gurU dy snmuK ho ky [ invwir—dUr kr [ kihAw—AwiKAw hoieAw bcn [ min—mn ivc [ haumY—haumYN, mYN v`fw bx jwvW [1[rhwau[
mwxku—moqI [ nwim—nwm ivc (juiVAW) [ piq—ie`zq [ imil—iml ky [ Awpu—Awpw-Bwv, suAwrQ [ sll—pwxI [2[
ijin—ijs (mnu`K) ny [ su—auh (mnu`K) [ Aauguix—AOgux ivc (itikAw rih ky) [ AwvY jwie—jMmdw mrdw hY [ ijsu—ijs (mnu`K) nUµ [ ByitE—imilAw [ Baujil—Baujl ivc, sMswr-smuMdr ivc [ pcY pcwie—in`q ^uAwr huMdw rihMdw hY [3[
ris—pRym nwl [ sujwx—isAwxy [ sy—auh bMdy [ gur imil—gurU nUµ iml ky [ qy—auh (bhu-vcn) [ Duin—Awvwz, gUMj, lhr [ nIswxu—DONsw [4[
ArQ:- hy mn! gurU dI srn pY ky (iqRSnw dI) A`g dUr kr skIdI hY [ jdoN gurU dw d`isAw hoieAw aupdyS mn ivc itk jwey, qW mYN v`fw ho jwvW mYN v`fw ho jwvW—ieh lwlc mukw leIdw hY [1[rhwau[
(gurU dI srn C`f ky) jy mnu`K (sMinAws-ByK Dwr ky) dys dys ivc BONdw iPry, (QW QW) BOx nwl (iqRSnw dI) A`g bu`J nhIN skdI, AMdroN (ivkwrW dI) mYl nhIN lihMdI, Ajyhw jIvn iPtkwr-jog hI rihMdw hY, Ajyhw ByK iPtkwr hI KWdw hY [ (ieh g`l p`k jwx ik) siqgurU dI is`iKAw gRihx krn qoN ibnw hor iksy QW BI prmwqmw dI BgqI nhIN ho skdI (qy BgqI qoN ibnw iqRSnw nhIN mu`kdI) [1[
prmwqmw dy nwm ivc juV ky ieh mn vf-mu`lw moqI bx jWdw hY, (hr QW) ie`zq pWdw hY [ (pr) prmwqmw dw nwm swD sMgiq ivc iml ky hI pRwpq huMdw hY, gurU dI srn ipAW hI prmwqmw (dy crnW) ivc suriq juVdI hY [ (pRBU-crnW ivc suriq itikAW mnu`K dy AMdroN) Awpw-Bwv dUr ho jWdw hY, Awqmk Anµd imldw hY (prmwqmw nwl mnu`K ieauN iek-imk ho jWdw hY) ijvyN pwxI nwl pwxI iml ky iek-rUp ho jWdw hY [2[
ijs mnu`K ny prmwqmw dw nwm nhIN ismirAw, auh ivkwrI jIvn ivc rih ky jMmdw mrdw hY [ ijs mnu`K nUµ siqgurU nhIN imilAw auh sMswr-smuMdr (dy ivkwrW) ivc hI ^uAwr huMdw rihMdw hY [ (pRBU dI AMs) ieh ijMd vf-mu`lw moqI hY, (pr) ies qrHW (ivkwrW ivc Kicq ho ky) kaufI dy v`ty zwieAw ho jWdw hY [3[
ijnHW mnu`KW nUµ pRym dy kwrn siqgurU imldw hY, auh pUry (BWfy) hn, auh isAwxy hn (ikauNik) gurU nUµ iml ky hI sMswr-smuMdr qoN pwr lµG skIdw hY, pRBU dI hzUrI ivc ie`zq imldI hY, kbUl hovIdw hY [ hy nwnk! auh bMdy au~jl-mu`K (sur^rU) hn, ijnHW dy AMdr gurU dw Sbd-vwjw v`jdw hY (Bwv, gurU dw Sbd Awpxw pUrw pRBwv pweI r`Kdw hY), (ismrn dI) lhr au`~TI rihMdI hY [4[22[

Source: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0022.html

 

[Archived_Member1]

Jasleen Ji and All,

I am the one who started this topic, Jasleen Ji you asked the question by grabing a few lines from my post.


As I am reading through the thread, it appears that Jasleen Bhenji feels insulted when another member asked her the same question to explain the same thing she herself asked before.

SO WAS ALL THIS QUESTION ASKING HAPPENED TO BE WITH A MOTIVE TO INSULT ME?

SO MANY TIMES THE SAME QUESTION WAS ASKED IN A ROUND ABOUT MANNER TO ALL THOSE WHO POST GURBANI AND ALL THE KIND OF COMMENTS WERE MADE ON THEM. WAS ALL THE INTENT HERE TO INSULT THE PEOPLE WHO DEPEND ON GURBANI INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN WRITTING? EVEN ONE MEMBER WENT TO THE EXTENT OF CLASSIFYING THEM AS A CULT.

CAN SOMEBODY THROW SOME LIGHT ON THIS, PLEASE.

BECAUSE HER COMMENT IS REALLY DISTURBING.

bhenji, i don't think anyone here is trying to insult you.

i think there are a couple of people here who take delight in making me squirm with discomfort, hence the confusion about my questions. but please don't take any of it as being directed at you.

i only meant to encourage vichaar. i'm sorry for any undesired side effects.