Nigura

[singhbj]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

It is Guru Gobind Singh ji's hukam with the blessings of Guru Granth Sahib jeeo Punj Piyaaras can give Khande di pahul (Amrit). Only Punj Pyaaras can give naam to Abhilakhis (candidates for partaking Amrit) none other is empowered or have the right to do so.

Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written about Sant Hira Singh jee Daudpuri, who started giving naam to others. Sant Hira Singh jee was a very accomplished gursikh and used to do naam abhyaas day and night. He was one of the main companions of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee. While doing Naam abhyaas, he used to start floating in the air.

In the village he lived, many became tyaar-bar-tyaar Khalsa, as a result of his sangat. His personal kamaayee increased manifolds. Once a bibi saw Sant jee coming and accosted him, "Vey Hira Siyaan, suniya hai tu jiss dey sirr uppar hath rakh deven, uss noo hosh nahi rehindi. Vey mere sirr uppar vee hath rakh dey" (O Hira Singh, I have heard that on whom you touch on head, he loses consciousness. Place your hand on my head too".

Sant Hira Singh laughingly placed his hand on that old lady's head and she really lost consciousness. Swaas swaas naam started vibrating in her body, with great alacrity. She remained in these colours for more than 24 hours.

This way, playing miracles forbidden by Guru Sahib, Sant Hira Singh jee lost all his kamaayee and one day, he discovered to his horror, that he could not retrieve the darshan of Jyot of Vaheguru. He tried and tried but all in vain. He would go to the side of wells at midnight and do Naam abhyaas, standing on one leg, for hours and hours but all in vain. He could not retrieve his old spiritual state. His inside became dark like common people. No longer he could view the charan-kamal of Vaheguru. No longer he could get into Dasam Duaar. No longer the divine lotus in his navel would blossom. He did not know what to do.

In such distressed state, he arrived back at Narangwal, the village of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee. Bhai Sahib jee and other accomplished Singhs already knew why he had come. The Singhs at that time had all 5 Akali Shaktis (spiritual powers) and knew everything in and out. They knew the purpose of arrival of Sant Hira Singh jee but kept ignoring him. They did not heed to his requests and supplications.

Sant Hira Singh's agony knew no bounds. His bairaag was uncontainable. He would stay seated where the shoes of sangat were kept and his eyes kept shedding divine tears.

After many days or weeks, the Singhs realised that the time for embracing Sant Hira Singh jee had arrived. They organised an amrit sinchaar and subpeonoed Sant Hira Singh jee. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written what happened inside, very beautifully. Basically, the Punj Pyaaray made him realise that he had lost all his spiritual state because he had started giving naam and technique all alone. They said that this was the sole right of the Punj Pyaaray and no one else had any right to give naam.

Sant Hira Singh jee repented his mistake and within moments, his spiritual state came back. He was back in his old spiritual state in no time.

Source: Abstract taken from writings of Bhai Kulbir Singh ji at Naam Vairaag

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 

[pk70]

After many days or weeks, the Singhs realised that the time for embracing Sant Hira Singh jee had arrived. They organised an amrit sinchaar and subpeonoed Sant Hira Singh jee. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written what happened inside, very beautifully. Basically, the Punj Pyaaray made him realise that he had lost all his spiritual state because he had started giving naam and technique all alone. They said that this was the sole right of the Punj Pyaaray and no one else had any right to give naam.

Sant Hira Singh jee repented his mistake and within moments, his spiritual state came back. He was back in his old spiritual state in no time.

Looks like competition is on ! Mistake is realized, power came back like electricity. What a imaginative brain ! I would never like to waste my time on such stories !

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

I have read your post #18 on the topic Nigura dated 16-05-2008.
It is strange to read your long list of reasons for japping 'Waheguru' as Gurmantar. Sorry to say that I missed the name of the true Guru in this list.

Quote "The tuk you shared only states Har Naam or Lord's Name. It does not state Gurmantara is Har and isn't Vaheguru."
Did Gurdev ever say that Vaheguru is Gurmantar?
I have never heard Gurdev saying so.

Please listen. Gurdev is explaining precisely.

hmry hir jgjIvnw hir jipE hir gur mMq ]
hmry hir jgjIvnw hir jipAo hir gur mNq ]
hamray hari jagjeevanaa hari japi-o hari gur mant. SGGS 1315-6

Quote "I base my understanding of Vaheguru as Gurmantar first on instructions of the Panj Piare when I was amrit chakk. Secondly on the Vaaran of Bhair Gurdas Ji. Third on the tradition and history of the Khalsa Panth. Fourth on the fateh I was given when I was amrit chakk . . ."
This is why true Guroo's Sikhs are rare. Rehit Naamee Sikhs are very much.

**************

Quote from Singhbj Jee "Before departing to Sach Khand, Guru Gobind Singh ji declared Guru Granth Sahib jeeo, the everlasting Guru of the Sikhs. Guru Sahib ji said 'Pooja Akal di, Parcha Shabad da, Deedaar Khalse da'."
Guru Gobind Singh Jee transferred the wisdom of the Sabad Guru for many years. He wrote also a lot so that Sikhs should not go astray. May I ask why Sikhs have started believing hearsay?


Balbir Singh

 

[Sikh80]

Singhbj ji,

I shall be thankful if you could very kindly tell the year/approximate only as to when the above incident might have taken place. We do not hear of spiritual achievements of this kind in recent days.

regards

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Quote "The tuk you shared only states Har Naam or Lord's Name. It does not state Gurmantara is Har and isn't Vaheguru."

Did Gurdev ever say that Vaheguru is Gurmantar?
I have never heard Gurdev saying so.

Please listen. Gurdev is explaining precisely.

hmry hir jgjIvnw hir jipE hir gur mMq ]
hmry hir jgjIvnw hir jipAo hir gur mNq ]
hamray hari jagjeevanaa hari japi-o hari gur mant. SGGS 1315-6

Quote "I base my understanding of Vaheguru as Gurmantar first on instructions of the Panj Piare when I was amrit chakk. Secondly on the Vaaran of Bhair Gurdas Ji. Third on the tradition and history of the Khalsa Panth. Fourth on the fateh I was given when I was amrit chakk . . ."

This is why true Guroo's Sikhs are rare. Rehit Naamee Sikhs are very much.

Just as the tradition states Dasam Pita Ji gave gurgaddi to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji AND to Khalsa Panth via roop of Guru Panj Piare, so I accept that Guru Panj Piare are sargun Saroop of Guruji, and not some individual opinion which goes contrary to accepted Panthic authority.

You have created a new slur against the legitimacy of the Khalsa Panth with rehitnamay Sikhs. But there is in truth only one Sikh and that is the one in submission to Guruji's own hukam and not deluded with opinions of one's own interpretive self-importance. Are you also suggesting that Khande Ki Pahul, and the rehitnamay of a Khalsa are fabrications and not distilled from the remembered instructions of Dasam Pita Ji and faithfully retained in rehitnamay? Since Dasam Pitaji was murdered and did not even record the events of Baisaikhi in His own hand, how do you even know that Gurgaddhi belongs to Shri Guru Granth? If you don't accept the Khalsa tradition and supportive sources, you have nothing but personal presumption.

A close associate of Guru Gobind Singh and author of Rehit-nama, Prahlad Singh, recorded the Guru's commandment saying "With the order of the Eternal Lord has been established [Sikh] Panth: all the Sikhs hereby are commanded to obey the Granth as their Guru".(Rehat-nama, Bhai Prahlad Singh)[15] Similarly Chaupa Singh, another associate of Guru Gobind Singh, has mentioned this commandment in his Rehat-nama.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Granth_Sahib

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Granth_Sahib

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waheguru

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quote "Just as the tradition states . . ."
True Sikhism is not following a tradition and imitating it.
The true Sikh does not imitate truth either.

Quote "Just as the tradition states Dasam Pita Ji gave gurgaddi to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji AND to Khalsa Panth via roop of Guru Panj Piare . . ."
May I ask what is Dasam Pita saying about this?
Why some Sikhs have started following hearsay?

Quote "so I accept that Guru Panj Piare are sargun Saroop of Guruji, and not some individual opinion which goes contrary to accepted Panthic authority."
Maya is the Sargun Saroop of the Supreme Lord. Is this the reason why many are entangled with Maya?
A Jeev mostly feels safe in a crowd. Experiencing the Way one does not walk with any Panth. What is to say about Panthic authority?
Please Listen, Gurdev is singing.
mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ]
mñnY mgu n clY pNQu ]
mannai mag na chalai panth. Japuji SGGS Ang 3
Experiencing the way he does not walk a panth.

Quote "You have created a new slur against the legitimacy of the Khalsa Panth with rehitnamay Sikhs."
The so-called Sikhs following Rehitnaamaas are Rehitnaamee Sikhs. That is why they are without the True Naam.
Rehit means without.
Also, the true Khalsa is not a bundle of rituals.
Khalsa is the purest consciousness attained through the true Naam Simran.

Quote "But there is in truth only one Sikh and that is the one in submission to Guruji's own hukam and not deluded with opinions of one's own interpretive self-importance."
Strange. The reverend Gurus never talk about their own Hukam. They talk and follow always Lord's Hukam.
Who are the teachers of today's Sikhs?

Quote "Are you also suggesting that Khande Ki Pahul, and the rehitnamay of a Khalsa are fabrications . . ."
Please come to know true Naam Simran and find it yourself.

Quote "Since Dasam Pitaji was murdered and did not even record the events of Baisaikhi in His own hand, how do you even know that Gurgaddhi belongs to Shri Guru Granth?"
I cannot imagine that Gurdev was waiting to write these incidents one day and demised suddenly.

Quote "If you don't accept the Khalsa tradition and supportive sources, you have nothing but personal presumption."
It is the great bliss to realize that Gurdev did not accept the Brahmin tradition and their supportive sources. Gurdev's personal experiences of Truth caused Them merging in HIM.

**************

Wikipedia information may be the guide to move around Truth.
Enlightened persons do not need wikipedia to realize Truth.
Truth lies in the Center within.

**************

Nigura is without the Guru. Only a nigura plays a drama to expose.


Balbir Singh

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

A close associate of Guru Gobind Singh and author of Rehit-nama, Prahlad Singh, recorded the Guru's commandment saying "With the order of the Eternal Lord has been established [Sikh] Panth: all the Sikhs hereby are commanded to obey the Granth as their Guru".(Rehat-nama, Bhai Prahlad Singh)[15] Similarly Chaupa Singh, another associate of Guru Gobind Singh, has mentioned this commandment in his Rehat-nama.
Guru Granth Sahib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why some Sikhs have started following hearsay?

Quote "But there is in truth only one Sikh and that is the one in submission to Guruji's own hukam and not deluded with opinions of one's own interpretive self-importance."
Strange. The reverend Gurus never talk about their own Hukam. They talk and follow always Lord's Hukam.
Who are the teachers of today's Sikhs?

Quote "Are you also suggesting that Khande Ki Pahul, and the rehitnamay of a Khalsa are fabrications . . ."
Please come to know true Naam Simran and find it yourself.

Quote "Since Dasam Pitaji was murdered and did not even record the events of Baisaikhi in His own hand, how do you even know that Gurgaddhi belongs to Shri Guru Granth?"
I cannot imagine that Gurdev was waiting to write these incidents one day and demised suddenly.

Quote "If you don't accept the Khalsa tradition and supportive sources, you have nothing but personal presumption."
It is the great bliss to realize that Gurdev did not accept the Brahmin tradition and their supportive sources. Gurdev's personal experiences of Truth caused Them merging in HIM.

Wikipedia information may be the guide to move around Truth.
Enlightened persons do not need wikipedia to realize Truth.
Truth lies in the Center within.

Your arrogance will be your own undoing. If you are not a Sikh and do not recognize as legitimate Sikh institutions such as Khalsa Panth, Rehitnamay, the Sikh Takhts, Akal Takht, Panj Piare, then how can you be a Sikh? Aren't you studying from teachings of Tantric Master Osho? Is this where you get the notion that all Sikhs are inferior spiritually to your presumptions of non-conformity to legitimate and recognized Sikh teaching? If you don't recognize and follow hukam of Guru than you are the one who is nigura.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quote "Your arrogance will be your own undoing."
Please say something with love and win me easily.

Quote "If you are not a Sikh and do not recognize as legitimate Sikh institutions such as Khalsa Panth, Rehitnamay, the Sikh Takhts, Akal Takht, Panj Piare, then how can you be a Sikh?"
I have respect for Harjas Jee and her referred institutions. I have also talked to them all. No one is ready to call them the Sikh's Guru. They were also hesitating to accept this title.
Also, I have recognized my true One Sabad Guru. I do not know why some are still suggesting to follow so many institutions.

Please listen. My true Guru is singing.
miq ivic rqn jvwhr mwixk jy iek gur kI isK suxI ]
miq ivic rqn jvwhr mwixk jy ek gur kI isK suxI ]
mati vichi ratan javaahar maanik jay ik gur kee sikh sunee. SGGS Ang 2
In understanding are gems, jewels and rubies if ONE Gur's teaching is heard.

Gurdev is mentioning One Gur not of many institutions. Please let me be happy with my true Guru. Do not enforce so many institutions on others.

With God's blessings I listened once my reverend Guru's suggestion. I feel no more need to read it repeatedly.
Once HE told me Truth singing this holy Vaak.
iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]
ekw bwxI eku gu{ eko sbdu vIcwir ]
ikaa banee iku guru iko sabadu veechaari. SGGS Ang 646
One Speech, one Guru, one Sabad, contemplate.

Quote "Aren't you studying from teachings of Tantric Master Osho?"
I came to know his dames long back. They are still insisting me to learn Tantra.

Quote "Is this where you get the notion that all Sikhs are inferior spiritually to your presumptions of non-conformity to legitimate and recognized Sikh teaching?"
This is not true. Perhaps one needs to meet a true Sikh in life. The true Sikh does not analyze in terms of inferiority or superiority.

Quote "If you don't recognize and follow hukam of Guru than you are the one who is nigura."
Let me follow God's Hukam through the true Guru. Please do not ask me to follow so many other institutions.
One may insist. I may still not give someone the title niguree.


Balbir Singh

 

[Astroboy]

The only sane way to deal with Balbir Singh is with calmness. There is no other way.
Because if one looses his head talking too harshly (yet to happen) then Moderators come into the picture. :crazy:

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Because if one looses his head talking too harshly

Indeed his comments against rehitnamee Sikhs as being without Naam, against authority of Shri Akal Takht Sahib Ji, against Khalsa rehitnamas and accepted teachings of Khalsa Panth

these are NOT talking to harshly against Sikh religion? And it is only responses which he has deliberately provoked with invalidation of basis of Sikh belief which would be construed as harshness? That seems rather biased in favor of the person slandering Sikhs who kept rehit and trust the legitimacy of Sikh institutions. So you allow attacks against, but moderate responses to?

 

[singhbj]

"Truth is high, higher still is truthful living."

[/FONT]Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਸਚਹੁ ਓਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥੫॥
सचहु ओरै सभु को उपरि सचु आचारु ॥५॥
Sachahu orai sabh ko upar sach aachar. ||5||
Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5||

Source: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurban ... 0&Param=62

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 

[Astroboy]

Indeed his comments against rehitnamee Sikhs as being without Naam, against authority of Shri Akal Takht Sahib Ji, against Khalsa rehitnamas and accepted teachings of Khalsa Panth

these are NOT talking to harshly against Sikh religion? And it is only responses which he has deliberately provoked with invalidation of basis of Sikh belief which would be construed as harshness? That seems rather biased in favor of the person slandering Sikhs who kept rehit and trust the legitimacy of Sikh institutions. So you allow attacks against, but moderate responses to?

Balbir Singh has received a number of infractions from moderators for provoking anger and misunderstanding while debating with members. I will not hesitate to resort to the same if the need arises.

Harjas Ji, you may highlight the points which Balbir Singh evades answering or gives wrong answers to. But if Balbir Singh can support his answers with relevant bani quotes, then he is not flaming sentiments. In the past, Pk70 has brought up arguments which reveal Balbir Singh's answers as evasive and he explains how.

From your posts and Balbir's post, there are a number of questionable objections which should have been raised but I am surprised no one paid any attention to them. I hope you will go thru them again and point them out.

It's a learning process and good reminders to all : not to fall for such unreasonable logic.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Quote from Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee "Indeed his comments against rehitnamee Sikhs as being without Naam, . . ."
Please learn Gur of Naam and become Gursikh. Do not waste life living without (rehit) as a rehit-naamee.
The so-called Rehitnaamays suggest something else than that the true Gurus suggest.

" . . . these are NOT talking to harshly against Sikh religion?"
The true Sikh's Religion is not his mind.

Quote "And it is only responses which he has deliberately provoked with invalidation of basis of Sikh belief . . ."
Nothing exists like Sikh belief.
True Sikhism is living Truth.

Quote "That seems rather biased in favor of the person slandering Sikhs who kept rehit and trust the legitimacy of Sikh institutions."
Sansaara lives in doubts (in sansai) so behave its institutions and their codes.
The true Sikh lives Truth with the guiding Sabad merging in God.
All true Sikhs are my beloved brothers. We have the same Guru, the true Sabad.

**************

Singhbj Jee,
I say thanks for referring the beautiful photo and the wonderful Vaak from Gurdev.
schu ErY sBu ko aupir scu Awcwru ]5]
schu AorY sBu ko apir scu Awcw{ ]5]
sachahu orai sabhu ko upari sachu aachaaru. ||5|| SGGS Ang 62

The translation provided may not be correct.
According to your referred translation it explains that 'Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living'.

Please ponder. How is this Vaak from the true Guru true if the above translation is correct?
aUcy aupir aUcw nwau ]
åcy apir åcw nwa ]
oochay upari oochaa naao. SGGS Ang 5
Highest of the High, above all is His Name.

**************

Quote from Namjap Jee "Balbir Singh has received a number of infractions from moderators for provoking anger and misunderstanding while debating with members. I will not hesitate to resort to the same if the need arises."
Perhaps all have heard the story of the shoe maker. His biggest dream was to become king for a day so that he could issue the leather coins.
Some moderators had the similar chance.
Some other forums just do not publish my posts. They are worried losing their business and customers.
They may not be knowing that also their children are visiting the Sikh Philosophy dot net forum to listen and understand the flute of Bansurivala, the divine tunes of the true Gurus.

Quote "In the past, Pk70 has brought up arguments which reveal Balbir Singh's answers as evasive and explains how."
Pk70 Jee has still not responded to my request. Please provide the authentic proof that confirms "Guru Angad Dev Jee never wrote any Pauree".

Quote "From your posts and Balbir's post, there are a number of questionable objections which should have been raised but I am surprised no one paid any attention to them. I hope you will go thru them again and point them out."
May I also ask further?
Please invite the so-called knowledgeable elite on this forum for open debates. They should not participate with their pseudo names if possible.

Quote "It's a learning process and good reminders to all : not to fall for such unreasonable logic."
I support this. Please beware of Baabaas and Beebees without true Naam (rehit-naamees).


Balbir Singh

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

The so-called Rehitnaamays suggest something else than that the true Gurus suggest.

Please beware of Baabaas (fathers, spiritual elders) and Beebees (sisters) without true Naam (rehit-naamees).

I have no interest in a debate which sole context is personal insult. I don't care how much Gurbani someone is quoting. I enjoy discussing points of religious understanding WITHOUT resorting to personal insults or having the same thrown at me. But it seems very hard to find such constructive discussions, and these are among the lowest common denominator intended to provoke resentment and rejection and not understanding. My opinion of course.

Discussions about points of disagreement are a learning process. Arguments and put downs are just an insult. And to be insulting others while distorting Gurbani to do it would seem more likely to lead to negative spiritual growth than positive.

I have certainly heard of a lot of fake babas, but rarely have I heard that a Sikh bibi was fake because she follows rehitnama. This whole discussion is ridiculous.

 

[spnadmin]

Mod's note

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!


Perhaps all have heard the story of the shoe maker. His biggest dream was to become king for a day so that he could issue the leather coins.
Some moderators had the similar chance.
Some other forums just do not publish my posts. They are worried losing their business and customers.
They may not be knowing that also their children are visiting the Sikh Philosophy dot net forum to listen and understand the flute of Bansurivala, the divine tunes of the true Gurus.


Balbir Singh

Balbirji,

If you really believe the above, then we must not be that worthless a lot of moderators after all.

Anyway I'm enjoying this debate very much.

aad0002 (Not a bird, and not a BeeBee, that is for sure)

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quoting my statement you wrote "Please beware of Baabaas (fathers, spiritual elders) and Beebees (sisters) without true Naam (rehit-naamees)."
Why was the need to add your words in brackets giving it the flare of your mind?
In which institutions one learns such behavior?

Quote "I have no interest in a debate which sole context is personal insult."
I do not insult a person even if he does not satisfy my curiosity.
Please do not expect me to appreciate someone's show holding an empty jug in hand and promising people the way to satisfy thirst.

Quote "I don't care how much Gurbani someone is quoting."
I do care. I love to listen the true Guru's words from a Paathee, Granthee, Raagee, Baabaa or a Beebee.

Quote "I enjoy discussing points of religious understanding WITHOUT resorting to personal insults or having the same thrown at me."
Nobody has thrown mud. Please feel clean.
True Gurus distribute Naam soap. Still many remain unclean because they are entangled with other institutions.

Quote "But it seems very hard to find such constructive discussions, and these are among the lowest common denominator intended to provoke resentment and rejection and not understanding. My opinion of course."
May God bless you.

Quote "Discussions about points of disagreement are a learning process. Arguments and put downs are just an insult. And to be insulting others while distorting Gurbani to do it would seem more likely to lead to negative spiritual growth than positive."
Should the world better hear your translations and agree with it?

Quote "I have certainly heard of a lot of fake babas, but rarely have I heard that a Sikh bibi was fake because she follows rehitnama. This whole discussion is ridiculous."
One who has found the true Sabad Guru is no more without Naam (Rehitnaamee).

**************

All institutions and symbols are parts of the worldly drama.
God is nearest and one realizes HIM first within.

**************

Let us come to the topic Nigura.

Worldly institutions pull beings on false tracks that take them away from the true Sabad Guru making him Nigura.
Only the true Sabad Guru makes one Gur Waalaa. He does not hate or kills someone because of a printed book.
Nigura is one who has not received the true Naam Sabad.
Institutions but behave and teach that one becomes Gur Waalaa if he possesses a printed copy of Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and reads it.
Guru Naanak Jee says that a Nigura reads Paath and lies.
Please ponder. One is not japping Naam when he is reading Paath.

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq EhY ]
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq AohY ]
paathu parhai mukhi jhootho bolai niguray kee mati ohai.
Reads Paath, from the mouth speak lies, Niguray's understanding is that.

nwmu n jpeI ikau suKu pwvY ibnu nwvY ikau sohY ]4]
nwmu n jpeé ika suKu pwvY ibnu nwvY ika sohY ]4]
naamu na japaee kio sukhu paavai binu naavai kio sohai. ||4|| SGGS Ang 1013
Does not japp Naam why one receives Sukh, without Naam why he establishes?


Balbir Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Balbirji,

Going through your responses to Harjas Ji line by line to point out why Harjas and others find your vichaar insulting. Your intent may be to cast a clear light, as you understand it, to remove ignorance, to lead people in a different direction. But it does not come across like that.

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quoting my statement you wrote "Please beware of Baabaas (fathers, spiritual elders) and Beebees (sisters) without true Naam (rehit-naamees)."
Why was the need to add your words in brackets giving it the flare of your mind?

Why shouldn't a person, Harjas or anyone else, do this to make it clear that they are particularly emphatic on a point? Why should that even be questioned?
In which institutions one learns such behavior?
Here you are asking an unanswerable question. People do this on emails, in forums, in private letters, and on and on. The way you ask the question makes it sound as if some sort of social taboo has been violated. A sin because a person has "added the flare of his/her mind."

Quote "I have no interest in a debate which sole context is personal insult."
I do not insult a person even if he does not satisfy my curiosity.
In a minute I will point out an insult coming from you. However this statement sounds as if you feel entitled to have your curiosity satisfied -- someone you have special rights and priveledges and can respond as you wish or not. Kind of like a member of royalty.



Please do not expect me to appreciate someone's show holding an empty jug in hand and promising people the way to satisfy thirst. Here you are insulting Harjas ji because you have just compared her remarks to an empty jug, suggesting that she has said nothing of merit. And then in spite of this view that she has said nothing of merit, you just go on responding to her. This is again toying with people.

Quote "I don't care how much Gurbani someone is quoting."
I do care. I love to listen the true Guru's words from a Paathee, Granthee, Raagee, Baabaa or a Beebee.


Quote "I enjoy discussing points of religious understanding WITHOUT resorting to personal insults or having the same thrown at me."
Nobody has thrown mud. Please feel clean. This could be understood as you saying, No I did not insult you.
True Gurus distribute Naam soap. Still many remain unclean because they are entangled with other institutions. Except here,you are taking it back, by suggesting that "someone" is unclean but doesn't realize it. And that is insulting. Both to Harjas ji and to the people reading the thread who have not participated in the discussion.

Quote "But it seems very hard to find such constructive discussions, and these are among the lowest common denominator intended to provoke resentment and rejection and not understanding. My opinion of course."
May God bless you. Harjas does not require you ask God to bless her. This is patronzing on your part.

Quote "Discussions about points of disagreement are a learning process. Arguments and put downs are just an insult. And to be insulting others while distorting Gurbani to do it would seem more likely to lead to negative spiritual growth than positive."
Should the world better hear your translations and agree with it? This is a sarcastic response. Pretty much on the level that takes the discussion down to the lowest common denominator, as stated earlier.

Quote "I have certainly heard of a lot of fake babas, but rarely have I heard that a Sikh bibi was fake because she follows rehitnama. This whole discussion is ridiculous."
One who has found the true Sabad Guru is no more without Naam (Rehitnaamee). Your response has nothing at all to do with logic or with Harjas ji and her previous comment. So why did you bother to say this if not to antagonize her? A person can have true Naam as you put it, and not even be a Sikh. A person can be rehitnaamee as you put it and not have true Naam. A person can have true Naam and be rehitnaamee. All three situations are possible in fact. Is there another reason, other than to offend another person by making this statement == One who has found true sabad guru is not more without Naam (Rehitnaamee)?

And then you compound the problem of communicating by giving your personal definition of Naam and of Rehitnaamee. This is a private language you are speaking. If you are not deliberately using a private language to confuse and frustrate your conversational partners, then at least someone has to point out to your that you are doing this here and do it all the time.

**************

All institutions and symbols are parts of the worldly drama.
God is nearest and one realizes HIM first within.

**************

Let us come to the topic Nigura.

Worldly institutions pull beings on false tracks that take them away from the true Sabad Guru making him Nigura.

This has to be a classic example of how you are substituting your opinion for Truth. Naturally people will be offended by this if they place value in institutions like gurdwara or khalsa or rehit. Your statement implies that you and only you are aware of how to find the truth and that all others are dupes.
Only the true Sabad Guru makes one Gur Waalaa. He does not hate or kills someone because of a printed book.
Nigura is one who has not received the true Naam Sabad.
Institutions but behave and teach that one becomes Gur Waalaa if he possesses a printed copy of Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and reads it.

No institution that I am aware of has ever said this. Whenever you make this comment I wonder whether you have been the victim of some kind of strange sect, group, or individual who has led you astray and that you are now deeply suspicious. Now sharing your suspicions. But using an approach that is not very effective.
Guru Naanak Jee says that a Nigura reads Paath and lies.
Please ponder. One is not japping Naam when he is reading Paath.

Please listen. Gurdev is singing.
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq EhY ]
pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq AohY ]
paathu parhai mukhi jhootho bolai niguray kee mati ohai.
Reads Paath, from the mouth speak lies, Niguray's understanding is that.

nwmu n jpeI ikau suKu pwvY ibnu nwvY ikau sohY ]4]
nwmu n jpeé ika suKu pwvY ibnu nwvY ika sohY ]4]
naamu na japaee kio sukhu paavai binu naavai kio sohai. ||4|| SGGS Ang 1013
Does not japp Naam why one receives Sukh, without Naam why he establishes?

Your translations are in places very strange -- this is not the first time you have taken a unique approach. So again, another individual is going to become very annoyed when reading a sarcastic treatment of their own opinion, only to have this sarcasm backed up by an understanding of Gurbani that is very idiosyncratic.


Balbir Singh

So you have told me that I am a zero, that I am lost in duality, that I am not your BeeBee, and that is the way things will have to look to you for now. Many of us have tried on occasion to encourage you to speak because we have been trying to figure out exactly what it is that your are trying to communicate. Always believing that perhaps we should make an extra attempt to contact you and get to the crux of your thinking. And there are those who have said that kindness is the way to go. But in return you make it impossible. I won't go over the reasons already outlined.

For a while some discussion was going on in this thread that was enjoyable because it was point-counterpoint and interesting to follow. Then things changed. And this happens all too many times. A regrettable pattern.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quoting my post you added your words.
"Your translations are in places very strange -- this is not the first time you have taken a unique approach. So again, another individual is going to become very annoyed when reading a sarcastic treatment of their own opinion, only to have this sarcasm backed up by an understanding of Gurbani that is very idiosyncratic."
Why is your signature missing after the above lines? Why have you put my signature after these words? Are you trying to mislead the readers? Is this the role a moderator should play?

Quote "So you have told me that I am a zero, that I am lost in duality, that I am not your BeeBee, and that is the way things will have to look to you for now."
Please do not manipulate my words and lie changing the words. It is your problem how your mind is guiding.

Aadi means the origin of all, God. Zero zero zero means beyond the three Gunas. There is no (zero) duality. Aadi does not mean a bird. I hope one reaches this consciousness now or in the future.

Quote "Many of us have tried on occasion to encourage you to speak because we have been trying to figure out exactly what it is that your are trying to communicate."
Who is this 'we'? Is this a group or a person with multiple personalities?

Quote "Always believing that perhaps we should make an extra attempt to contact you and your thinking."
Thanks. I have a chair already. I love to sit on a floor near the Guru's Charan though.

Quote "I won't go over the reasons already outlined."
I don't feel I am exchanging views with a stone.

**************

Nigura is also one who has nothing to say about the true Gur because he has never come to know HIM truly.

The reason of sorrows and Dukhas is one's own mind. He should not expect others to say 'sorry' for this and demote healing.


Balbir Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Balbir ji

I will try to address your questions and issues one at a time. In fact, this is a rare occasion when I feel you are speaking to me person to person in a direct and open way. So let me answer you. You are speaking in a direct way to me.

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quoting my post you added your words.
"Your translations are in places very strange -- this is not the first time you have taken a unique approach. So again, another individual is going to become very annoyed when reading a sarcastic treatment of their own opinion, only to have this sarcasm backed up by an understanding of Gurbani that is very idiosyncratic."
Why is your signature missing after the above lines? Why have you put my signature after these words? Are you trying to mislead the readers? Is this the role a moderator should play?

I never add my signature at the bottom of each post. It is not a forum rule to do so, and I never have done this. But if you feel that I should, I will.

My comments before your signature have been inserted directly into your comments as a quote -- this is done by selecting the Quote Reply option below. I am answering each point you make that way now. And highlighting my answer to each point you make in green. The choice to do this is up to each individual. It is not to mislead, but rather to make certain that I am responding to exactly what you are saying.

This I will continue to do. It is called an "inline" response.

Quote "So you have told me that I am a zero, that I am lost in duality, that I am not your BeeBee, and that is the way things will have to look to you for now."
Please do not manipulate my words and lie changing the words. It is your problem how your mind is guiding.

Aadi means the origin of all, God. Zero zero zero means beyond the three Gunas. There is no (zero) duality. Aadi does not mean a bird. I hope one reaches this consciousness now or in the future.

Thank you for clarifying, I think. Some parts of your answer are still cryptic. I know that aad does not mean bird. And I realize that aad means the source or origin before time. I am stuck on the no zero/duality part of your answer. aad0002 was my original email ID when I signed up with SPN and I kept it so I wouldn't have to remember a new account ID. The a a d are the initials of my name. There was no other importance assigned to this choice. At the time I joined SPN, I did not even know that aad was a word used in Gurbani.

Quote "Many of us have tried on occasion to encourage you to speak because we have been trying to figure out exactly what it is that your are trying to communicate."
Who is this 'we'? Is this a group or a person with multiple personalities?

We consists of a number of forum members. There may be among them those who have multiple personalities, but of course how would I know for sure. In any case I am not alone in my opinion.

Quote "Always believing that perhaps we should make an extra attempt to contact you and your thinking."
Thanks. I have a chair already. I love to sit on a floor near the Guru's Charan though.
We share then a common love. I also love to sit on the floor near the Guru's charan.

Quote "I won't go over the reasons already outlined."
I don't feel I am exchanging views with a stone.

That is why I did not repeat myself.

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Nigura is also one who has nothing to say about the true Gur because he has never come to know HIM truly. May Guruji speak to each and every one of us in His time. May each and every one of us open ourselves to the sound of His voice all the time.

The reason of sorrows and Dukhas is one's own mind. I agree. He should not expect others to say 'sorry' for this and demote healing.

You got me confused on this one because I don't know who "He" refers to in this particular sentence. Anyway -- you are correct in the general sense that saying sorry is usually not helpful in a conversation where people are trying to be honest with one another.


Balbir Singh

Now my signature as you requested. I will not forget in the future.
Antonia A. D'Onofrio (aad0002)
Forum member and Forum leader

 

[Archived_member2]

Dear Antonia A. D'Onofrio (aad0002) Jee!
Forum member and Forum leader,

Thanks for the clarification. I hope also in the future you will participate directly on this forum and convince participants with your progress as a Sikh.


Balbir Singh