Nihang Niddar Singh - What Is The Controversy?
- Thread starter Randip Singh
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I don't rate DDT or AKJ, I think their are many things they say are wrong on. There you go.
I am traitor too.
I would say disagreeing with the AKJ and DDT version of Sikhism is a good thing. Same as disagreeing with Namdhari, and Radhaswami versions.
Have you read the book?
Is forming an opinion on his book right without reading it as Singh has?
From what I can understand is that some people were upset that Niddar named and shamed some people who destroyed Architectural heritage of the Sikhs. Watch the video and see.
In anycase I will form my opinion once I have read the book.
Hey, I didn't say that anyone who is not a fan of AKJ or DDT is automatically bad, thats absolutely fine if people disagree with them, heck people would label me as AKJ and even I am not to sure about some things happening nowadays. But the point is that the way Mr. N's points are made regarding the two Jathebandis who have carried out and continue to carry out undeniably MAHA SEVA for the Panth, are completely hate filled, full of mischievious misinformation and completely disregard any of the good they have done/do. Even if someone has disagreements with a fellow sikh/ sikh group, they should talk to them with love and the respect that they are due. For an example of this I would point to the relationships between the Jathedars of Taksal and those of AKJ, both with ideological differences, but the pyar portrayed would make it seem there were no differences at all.
No, I haven't read the book and I don't see the problem with that considering that I made no comment regarding it which I certainly would not do without having read it. I just spoke about why he is not liked by the majority of Sikhs and what anti-sikh views he has put forward. Though, on the book what I will say is that the credibility of its contents is in part slightly lowered considering the response recieved by the Singhs at Hazoor Sahib and Jathedar Kulwant Singh Ji, considering that the book is about something which I don't think anyone one Earth would know more about than these Singhs. Thats all I will say as I agree with you that it would be wrong to comment without having read it.
Well I don't know the people he criticised, but maybe his criticism were warranted. Remember they were just men at the end of the day, and as men imperfect. Criticing people does not make people bad.
For example I read something about Bandha Bahadhur, that criticised his policies and caused divisions in the Paanth. I don't think the person who made the criticism was a bad person. Just putting his view forward.
We really should look at such things with rationaility. I am coming from the point of view that such diatribe about him on youtube and other sites just looks SIKH per se look bad. If he has made criticisms then post replies answering him, not stuff like "Nang Niddar Singh". I don't agree with that.
Singhstah ji
You are the first person in the discussion to provide us with a list of specifics, rather than two brief examples of Niddar's short-comings (that women do not have to keep hair, and his sanatan leanings). This alone advances the discussion. And you have separated a critique of the book from a critique of his understanding of core Sikh values.
Even though I would like to discuss with you his position on bhang, women and dastar, Hindu Samaj, and other points you have raised -- I won't -- because the thread still has not come to terms with whether OR not there are problems of fact or scholarship with the book.
You are the first person in the discussion to provide us with a list of specifics, rather than two brief examples of Niddar's short-comings (that women do not have to keep hair, and his sanatan leanings). This alone advances the discussion. And you have separated a critique of the book from a critique of his understanding of core Sikh values.
Even though I would like to discuss with you his position on bhang, women and dastar, Hindu Samaj, and other points you have raised -- I won't -- because the thread still has not come to terms with whether OR not there are problems of fact or scholarship with the book.
Randip ji
One grave concern I have as I look at blogs and sites on the net is the extent to which a statement is made -- Niddar said this - Niddar apologized -- Niddar though X, Y and Z -- but there is no evidence to go along with the claims. Only many bold accusations. Then person after person writes angrily about this "devil" as if the claims were true. The net result -- the reality of Niddar Singh is being created by way of group-think and crowd-mentality.
And he remains a mystery.So in the end -- I wish I could talk to this guy and find out just what he did say, think and do -- with my own eyes and ears. Isn't that ironic?
The bad PR spinning around him is making him a celebrity.
Randip ji
One grave concern I have as I look at blogs and sites on the net is the extent to which a statement is made -- Niddar said this - Niddar apologized -- Niddar though X, Y and Z -- but there is no evidence to go along with the claims. Only many bold accusations. Then person after person writes angrily about this "devil" as if the claims were true. The net result -- the reality of Niddar Singh is being created by way of group-think and crowd-mentality.
So in the end -- I wish I could talk to this guy and find out just what he did say, think and do -- with my own eyes and ears. Isn't that ironic?
The bad PR spinning around him is making him a celebrity.
Indeed.
If one watches the book launch video and listens to Niddar himself, the incident in Hazoor Sahib seems to be about something totally different.
I agree totally though with the 2+2=5 mentality.
I have a feeling this is about some person (s) EGO. My suspicion is this Niddar Singh fellow may have dented someone's pride by either:
1) Beating them up
2) Challenging them intellectually and beating them in a debate.
3) Both 1 and 2.
Just my theory.
Anyway about to tuck into my east west dinner>>>parontay with baked beans (toorkha style) = yum yum
I have just received my copy of this book and I would highly recommend it.
It is very well put together, and very well researched, with some beautiful illustration and well sourced and research.
The controversial bit is the section on the current Jathedhar of Hazoor Sahib Kulwant Singh who seems to be a real light weight and complicit in the destruction of Sikh Architecture. There are shocking pictures of demolition of the Ramgarhia Bunga at night time under the cover of darkness. I think Kulwant Singh (who seems pro AKJ or DDT) is/was complicit in this descration of Sikh Architecture. Who needs the GOI to bomb Sikh temples when we have Jathedar Kulwant Singh doing it.
No wonder there is such venom coming from (AKJ/DDT) quarters against Niddar Singh. I say good on Niddar Singh for exposing this and good on him for showing things as they are. Pictures don't lie and the demolition pictures are there for all to see.
On another note Jathedar Kulwant Singh seems to have abandoned the Martial tradition of the Hazoori Sikhs which was kept up by the previous Jathedar Joginder Singh Moni. He seems like an all round wimp, spineless and a corrupt to boot. Sorry for the strong words but what I am reading and the pictures make me really angry.
Nihang Niddar Singh and Paramjit Singh should be praised for exposing this.
It is very well put together, and very well researched, with some beautiful illustration and well sourced and research.
The controversial bit is the section on the current Jathedhar of Hazoor Sahib Kulwant Singh who seems to be a real light weight and complicit in the destruction of Sikh Architecture. There are shocking pictures of demolition of the Ramgarhia Bunga at night time under the cover of darkness. I think Kulwant Singh (who seems pro AKJ or DDT) is/was complicit in this descration of Sikh Architecture. Who needs the GOI to bomb Sikh temples when we have Jathedar Kulwant Singh doing it.
No wonder there is such venom coming from (AKJ/DDT) quarters against Niddar Singh. I say good on Niddar Singh for exposing this and good on him for showing things as they are. Pictures don't lie and the demolition pictures are there for all to see.
On another note Jathedar Kulwant Singh seems to have abandoned the Martial tradition of the Hazoori Sikhs which was kept up by the previous Jathedar Joginder Singh Moni. He seems like an all round wimp, spineless and a corrupt to boot. Sorry for the strong words but what I am reading and the pictures make me really angry.
Nihang Niddar Singh and Paramjit Singh should be praised for exposing this.
Randip ji
Good for you! :yes: That's what I say!:happy: Your description above also explains why one of those videos (the one about Hazoor Sahib apology) says that Niddar apologized in the presence of Jathedar Kulwant Singh. I now understand the video a little better. He was not apologizing but basically accepting the reality of the situation. Of important note is that the "More info..." link on the video taken at Hazoor Sahib completely misrepresented what was happening in that video. This seems to be a trend on the Internet right now. Someone starts a blog or a rant in a forum making statements that cannot be backed up with facts. Next thing you know there is a long conversation among angry people who are acting as if the story is real, when it is totally cooked up.
Thanks!
Good for you! :yes: That's what I say!:happy: Your description above also explains why one of those videos (the one about Hazoor Sahib apology) says that Niddar apologized in the presence of Jathedar Kulwant Singh. I now understand the video a little better. He was not apologizing but basically accepting the reality of the situation. Of important note is that the "More info..." link on the video taken at Hazoor Sahib completely misrepresented what was happening in that video. This seems to be a trend on the Internet right now. Someone starts a blog or a rant in a forum making statements that cannot be backed up with facts. Next thing you know there is a long conversation among angry people who are acting as if the story is real, when it is totally cooked up.
Thanks!
Yes . Exactly.
Kulwant Singh is the villain of the piece here and he tried to use goons to shut Niddar Singh up. I think certain people who have contributed to this thread and jumped to conclusions should take this as a lesson for the future and not go along with people who would hope to spread gossip (which is easily done), but be independently minded enough to say, wait , hold on, what is this all about?
BHEDD CHAAL....is the word.....Randip Ji....
Looks like many Sikhs today are so fast on the jump....jumping on the bandwagon is about the only exercise they do...
we got to be more....into SEHAJ...STOP !! and consider the Whys, the Whos, the Whats...and more before we JUMP to concluisons..
I agree with your analysis and the end result....Identity of the Villain...
Reading between the lines is an art....now we have to "look between the frames...as well to fully understand You tube and internet videos...looks can be decieving as the written word is....superficial looks and reads wont do..:happy:
Looks like many Sikhs today are so fast on the jump....jumping on the bandwagon is about the only exercise they do...
we got to be more....into SEHAJ...STOP !! and consider the Whys, the Whos, the Whats...and more before we JUMP to concluisons..
I agree with your analysis and the end result....Identity of the Villain...
Reading between the lines is an art....now we have to "look between the frames...as well to fully understand You tube and internet videos...looks can be decieving as the written word is....superficial looks and reads wont do..:happy:
I also recommend to get the book yourself and decide for yourself to see whether I am being fair.:yes:
Not quite.
I decided to read some extracts to see what the fuss is about.
I saw this, here;
Amazon.co.uk: Books: In the Master's Presence: The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib: 1
Guru Gobind is quoted (in the book) to have said (paraphrased) to Jait Ram
'you are clean shaven and eat pulses with millet....... We keep our hair, keep weapons, hunt and eat'
What exactly is being implied here?
Perhaps yet another apology is in order?
No apology is in order Boota ji
The controversy is as follows: Why is there a controversy about the book In the Master's Presence? You have just demonstrated with your quote that Niddar Singh quoted Guru Gobind Singh's words. Saying that, Niddar Singh got it right as far as the history of Hazoor Sahib is concerned.
His views on kes and the other issues for which he has been faulted were connected to the book at the time of the release of the book. This tactic is called "argumentum ad hominem." His views on kes should have nothing to do with the scholarly merit of the book. So far no one has addressed the scholarly merit of the book.
The controversy is as follows: Why is there a controversy about the book In the Master's Presence? You have just demonstrated with your quote that Niddar Singh quoted Guru Gobind Singh's words. Saying that, Niddar Singh got it right as far as the history of Hazoor Sahib is concerned.
His views on kes and the other issues for which he has been faulted were connected to the book at the time of the release of the book. This tactic is called "argumentum ad hominem." His views on kes should have nothing to do with the scholarly merit of the book. So far no one has addressed the scholarly merit of the book.
Apology for what?:crazy:
A balanced perspective at this news source In The Master's Presence | SikhNet
Apology ?? what apology ??
Apology for NOT discussing the "Academic Merits" of the book.... but simply beating about the bush..dhoorr wich tattoo....muddying the waters...or paanee wich madhannii
THATS what the anti Niddar group shoudl apologise for...I thought Railroading/shotgunning or kangroo courts went out with the American west/Cowboy justice...seems i am mistaken..it is well and alive in so called nihungs ( and they too ride horses just like the cowboys of the wild west....any coincidence ??)
Apology for NOT discussing the "Academic Merits" of the book.... but simply beating about the bush..dhoorr wich tattoo....muddying the waters...or paanee wich madhannii
THATS what the anti Niddar group shoudl apologise for...I thought Railroading/shotgunning or kangroo courts went out with the American west/Cowboy justice...seems i am mistaken..it is well and alive in so called nihungs ( and they too ride horses just like the cowboys of the wild west....any coincidence ??)
Gyani ji
My comment is slightly off topic. But you used a term "kangaroo courts" in your reply and there is something about that expression that puts me literally ROFL.
It makes me forget completely what I was thinking or going to say. Why is that such a funny expression? Thanks for starting my day with a big big peal of laughter.
My comment is slightly off topic. But you used a term "kangaroo courts" in your reply and there is something about that expression that puts me literally ROFL.
It makes me forget completely what I was thinking or going to say. Why is that such a funny expression? Thanks for starting my day with a big big peal of laughter.
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