harcharanjitsinghdhillon
SPNer
- Oct 18, 2012
- 124
- 81
all rituals related to 3 gunas are rejected in sikhism
Occultism - Rejection In Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)
Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)
This is a very very very COMPLICATED SUBJECT....There are Calendars and calendars and more...OVER 40 are in USE today.. For Example to calculate the Day of EASTER one uses this Formula...
C = Y/100,
N = Y - 19*(Y/19),
K = (C - 17)/25,
I = C - C/4 - (C - K)/3 + 19*N + 15,
I = I - 30*(I/30),
I = I - (I/28)*(1 - (I/28)*(29/(I + 1))*((21 - N)/11)),
J = Y + Y/4 + I + 2 - C + C/4,
J = J - 7*(J/7),
L = I - J,
M = 3 + (L + 40)/44,
D = L + 28 - 31*(M/4). .
http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html
1. Some Christians beleive their Calendar ( the one the world uses..12/12/2012 !!) is NOT the Right one according to their interpretation of the Bible..sabbath etc...Google for more info..
2. The Christian calendar which we all use...year now 2012..called GREGORIAN after Pope Gregory...has undergone many changes..and has been called by various names...Google for more info.. Popes Gregory..Julian have been ordering changes as "TIME" ran out of sync...( Example when your WATCH runs SLOW..or FAST..you just TURN its Hands Back or Forward to sync...same way CALENDARS have to be SHIFTED forward/backward to SYNC them...
3. Calendars are based on TIME...based on the SUN (Soalr) or the MOON (Lunar)...The world christian claendar is SOLAR...and the Islamic/Chinese calendars are LUNAR...google for more info..
4. What is the problem...?? The problem is the EARTH DOES NOT CIRCLE the SUN in EXACT MINUTE...its rotation is APPROXIMATELY 365.25 days a year....so SHORTCUT solution to this problem..is the .25 days are accumulated over FOUR YEARS..and a EXTRA DAY thus accumalated is added to FEBRUARY...thus February every FOUR YEARS has Feb 29 !! Thsi is called LEAP YEAR....
5. However just adding a day didnt solve the problem..because there is still soemthing LEFT OVER...and thsi accumalates over a period of CENTURIES...and the SOLUTION for this was to JUMP (leap) in a big way...Thus the Pope long ago ordered the Leaping and....4th OCTOBER 1582..was followed by 15th March the next day... 11 DAYS disappeared and the GREGORIAN calendar was ADJUSTED...
6. The INDIAN CONTEXT...India was using the BIKRMI Calendar. and also the SAKA samvat .which is based on the LUNAR and Solar counting...and in 1957 the INDIAN GOVT passed the Law to use the LUNISOLAR Calendar (Combination of Lunar+Solar)...IN 1957...OVER 30 Calendars were being sued to determine HINDU festivals and many others...the JANTREE would be issued from BENARES to tell you when DIWALI etc was to be in that year... EVERY FIVE YEARS..an ADDITIONAL MONTH was ADDED t the 12 in order to SYNC the LUNAR and SOLAR years...THIS 13th MONTH was considered BAD..ASUBH...!!!
7 For 500 years SIKHS also depended on the BENARES PANDITS to determine their GURPURABS....meaning that only when the Benares Jantree was released woudl the SIKHS "KNOW" when to clebrate their GURPURABS !! The SGPC then initiated a panel of experts to formulate a SIKH Calendar called the NANAK SHAHI Calendar which would FIX GURPURAB DATES PERMANENTLY...and this panel led by Calendar Expert Purewal from CANADA decided to Take the ORIGINAL DATES based on the GREGORIAN CALENDAR....and FIX them Permanenetly....example it was calculated that in 1666 31st december was the Birthdate of Guru gobind Singh ji..and after adjustments to 2003...the DATE was Permanently FIXED for JANUARY 5 each year. Simialr calculations were done for all Gurpurabs. Serious opposition form the Traditional SANTS dera and Taksaals forced the GURU NANAK GURPURAB and Vaisakhi and Diwali etc to REMAIN UNCHANGED. Despite this minor setback the SGPC and AKAL TAKHAT launched the NANAKSHAI CALENDAR 2003 FROM AKLA TAKHAT. THE ENTIRE SIKH DIASPORA AND SIKHS WORLDWIDE ACCEPTED THIS NEW CALENDAR AND BEGAN TO HAVE PEACE OF MIND THAT EACH GURPURAB WOULD COME AS SCHEDULED...but this was not really accepted by the SANTS and Deras ( as they ahd also done same to SRM in 1935)....This LOBBY bided its time and when it found it ahd more POWER on SGPC via BADAL..it "persuaded" the Akal takhat to RESCIND the 2003 Nanaksahi calendar and REISSUE the Old Bikrmi+saka+lunar+soalr claendar..which is NOT even used by the INDIAN GOVT. Thsi CORRUPTED Nanksahi calendar was issued in 2010...and since then has proved a MAJOR EMBARASSMENT because several GURPURABS CLASH on certain days..certain YEARS have Gurpurabs TWICE and certain years have NONE !! in 2012 The SHaheedee of Guru Arjun Ji comes AFTER the GURGADEE of Guru hargobind Sahib...On the day of Shaheedee of Guru teg bahdur Ji..would fall the WEDDING Day of Guru nanak Ji..all highly improper and embarassing...NOW CALLS TO SETTLE THIS MATTER ARE RISING DAY BY DAY...AND ITS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE SENSE PREVAILS AND THE 2003 ORIGINAL NANKSHHI CLAENDAR IS READOPTED. THE SIKHS DIASPORA HAVE BEEN STICKING TO THE 2003 NANKSHAI CLAENDAR ALL ALONG....
This is very very brief explanation...please google or wiki for more detailed info..
This is a very very very COMPLICATED SUBJECT....There are Calendars and calendars and more...OVER 40 are in USE today.. For Example to calculate the Day of EASTER one uses this Formula...
C = Y/100,
N = Y - 19*(Y/19),
K = (C - 17)/25,
I = C - C/4 - (C - K)/3 + 19*N + 15,
I = I - 30*(I/30),
I = I - (I/28)*(1 - (I/28)*(29/(I + 1))*((21 - N)/11)),
J = Y + Y/4 + I + 2 - C + C/4,
J = J - 7*(J/7),
L = I - J,
M = 3 + (L + 40)/44,
D = L + 28 - 31*(M/4). .
http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html
1. Some Christians beleive their Calendar ( the one the world uses..12/12/2012 !!) is NOT the Right one according to their interpretation of the Bible..sabbath etc...Google for more info..
2. The Christian calendar which we all use...year now 2012..called GREGORIAN after Pope Gregory...has undergone many changes..and has been called by various names...Google for more info.. Popes Gregory..Julian have been ordering changes as "TIME" ran out of sync...( Example when your WATCH runs SLOW..or FAST..you just TURN its Hands Back or Forward to sync...same way CALENDARS have to be SHIFTED forward/backward to SYNC them...
3. Calendars are based on TIME...based on the SUN (Soalr) or the MOON (Lunar)...The world christian claendar is SOLAR...and the Islamic/Chinese calendars are LUNAR...google for more info..
4. What is the problem...?? The problem is the EARTH DOES NOT CIRCLE the SUN in EXACT MINUTE...its rotation is APPROXIMATELY 365.25 days a year....so SHORTCUT solution to this problem..is the .25 days are accumulated over FOUR YEARS..and a EXTRA DAY thus accumalated is added to FEBRUARY...thus February every FOUR YEARS has Feb 29 !! Thsi is called LEAP YEAR....
5. However just adding a day didnt solve the problem..because there is still soemthing LEFT OVER...and thsi accumalates over a period of CENTURIES...and the SOLUTION for this was to JUMP (leap) in a big way...Thus the Pope long ago ordered the Leaping and....4th OCTOBER 1582..was followed by 15th March the next day... 11 DAYS disappeared and the GREGORIAN calendar was ADJUSTED...
6. The INDIAN CONTEXT...India was using the BIKRMI Calendar. and also the SAKA samvat .which is based on the LUNAR and Solar counting...and in 1957 the INDIAN GOVT passed the Law to use the LUNISOLAR Calendar (Combination of Lunar+Solar)...IN 1957...OVER 30 Calendars were being sued to determine HINDU festivals and many others...the JANTREE would be issued from BENARES to tell you when DIWALI etc was to be in that year... EVERY FIVE YEARS..an ADDITIONAL MONTH was ADDED t the 12 in order to SYNC the LUNAR and SOLAR years...THIS 13th MONTH was considered BAD..ASUBH...!!!
7 For 500 years SIKHS also depended on the BENARES PANDITS to determine their GURPURABS....meaning that only when the Benares Jantree was released woudl the SIKHS "KNOW" when to clebrate their GURPURABS !! The SGPC then initiated a panel of experts to formulate a SIKH Calendar called the NANAK SHAHI Calendar which would FIX GURPURAB DATES PERMANENTLY...and this panel led by Calendar Expert Purewal from CANADA decided to Take the ORIGINAL DATES based on the GREGORIAN CALENDAR....and FIX them Permanenetly....example it was calculated that in 1666 31st december was the Birthdate of Guru gobind Singh ji..and after adjustments to 2003...the DATE was Permanently FIXED for JANUARY 5 each year. Simialr calculations were done for all Gurpurabs. Serious opposition form the Traditional SANTS dera and Taksaals forced the GURU NANAK GURPURAB and Vaisakhi and Diwali etc to REMAIN UNCHANGED. Despite this minor setback the SGPC and AKAL TAKHAT launched the NANAKSHAI CALENDAR 2003 FROM AKLA TAKHAT. THE ENTIRE SIKH DIASPORA AND SIKHS WORLDWIDE ACCEPTED THIS NEW CALENDAR AND BEGAN TO HAVE PEACE OF MIND THAT EACH GURPURAB WOULD COME AS SCHEDULED...but this was not really accepted by the SANTS and Deras ( as they ahd also done same to SRM in 1935)....This LOBBY bided its time and when it found it ahd more POWER on SGPC via BADAL..it "persuaded" the Akal takhat to RESCIND the 2003 Nanaksahi calendar and REISSUE the Old Bikrmi+saka+lunar+soalr claendar..which is NOT even used by the INDIAN GOVT. Thsi CORRUPTED Nanksahi calendar was issued in 2010...and since then has proved a MAJOR EMBARASSMENT because several GURPURABS CLASH on certain days..certain YEARS have Gurpurabs TWICE and certain years have NONE !! in 2012 The SHaheedee of Guru Arjun Ji comes AFTER the GURGADEE of Guru hargobind Sahib...On the day of Shaheedee of Guru teg bahdur Ji..would fall the WEDDING Day of Guru nanak Ji..all highly improper and embarassing...NOW CALLS TO SETTLE THIS MATTER ARE RISING DAY BY DAY...AND ITS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE SENSE PREVAILS AND THE 2003 ORIGINAL NANKSHHI CLAENDAR IS READOPTED. THE SIKHS DIASPORA HAVE BEEN STICKING TO THE 2003 NANKSHAI CLAENDAR ALL ALONG....
This is very very brief explanation...please google or wiki for more detailed info..
Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)
Thanks for the light on all the mess of the dates.
Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)
Thanks for all that information and I am led to conclude that we were good with the Benares Calender irrespective of the fact that it was put forward by Brahmins or anybody else. After all reading Gurubani we come to know that wisdom is wisdom no matter what the source, We never objected who the bhagats were and why they were included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Right? We never asked about whether they were brahmins or khatris etc.
Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)
Actually ahiyapuri ji
I am not sure who the "we" is who were "good with the Benares Calendar." In the mid 1990's there was a shift in thinking among many Sikh sangats that it was time for a change. The reason had nothing to do with whether the Bikram calendar was put forward by Brahmins. Nor do reasons have anything to do with whether we cared or objected whether the bhagats were Brahmins or khatris. In fact we know the caste of many of them.
The Bikram Samvat calendar had some frustrating issues. First, in order to know when dates important to Sikhi would fall, everyone would have to wait until astrologers cast their charts. This could take weeks, even months. When a gurpurab falls in March and the panth has to wait until February (the usual time) for Benares to come up with an answer, sangats worldwide were left waiting and became unwilling to wait.
The Benares methodology also led to some perplexing problems. It does not have fixed dates for events. The gurpurabs therefore would vary considerably in terms of day and in some instances a gurpurab would fall twice in one year; or a gurpurab would be skipped for years at a time. Such is the nature of casting calendars according to lunar fluctuations.
Developments led to the work of Pal Singh Purewal who developed a calendar that was reviewed and discussed by sangats worldwide. This is the Sikh way. A process of democratic feedback and discussion until a decision can be taken that serves a majority need. In 2003 the Purewal version of the Nanakshai Calendar was finally approved by sangats, not by the top-dogs. Its advantage was that it had "fixed' dates. Everyone could be on the same page and this idea had broad acceptance.
The fly in the ointment. There are sectarian groups within Sikhi who adhere to the Bikram calendar because of philosophical allegiance to brahmin ideas. They never accepted the Purewal verion of the calendar and continued to agitate against it. By 2011 this agitation reached critical mass and Akal Takht declared the Purewal version invalid. We now have something called the Revised Nanakshai Calendar.
You will note that the age-old tradition of panthic discussion preceded the acceptance of the Purewal calendar. However, the Revised Nanakshai calendar was mandated without panthic debate. Consequently, there is controversy, with sangats mainly in North America, Pakistan, parts of the Asia/Pacific regions, and specific sangats within India expressing great dismay that things were handled this way.
I have given much thought to your reply. Which deeply held value of Sikhism should be adhered to in this debate? On the one side is your sense that "wisdom is wisdom" no matter who offers it. On the other side is the historical tradition within Sikhism: issues affecting the panth should be resolved through a deliberative process. Our leaders originally were our servants, not governors or task-masters. Not all "wisdom" is "wisdom" and the Bikram Samvat calendar has ties to a way of thought that Guru Nanak questioned. How does this Bikram calendar reveal the wisdom of its creators to Sikhs?
The concept of equality is another kind of wisdom that begs for a great deal more than mandating a calendar by those playing the top-dogs of Sikhi, and that is what happened in the year 2013.
Sikhs are very different from ancient Christians. We are not waiting for the Pope and a council of the holy hierarchy to give us our orders. The concern is also not about quibbling over a calendar. The concern comes from a perception that the panth is being managed when it should manage itself, and managed in a way that ignores the foundations of Sikhi.
Actually ahiyapuri ji
I am not sure who the "we" is who were "good with the Benares Calendar." In the mid 1990's there was a shift in thinking among many Sikh sangats that it was time for a change. The reason had nothing to do with whether the Bikram calendar was put forward by Brahmins. Nor do reasons have anything to do with whether we cared or objected whether the bhagats were Brahmins or khatris. In fact we know the caste of many of them.
The Bikram Samvat calendar had some frustrating issues. First, in order to know when dates important to Sikhi would fall, everyone would have to wait until astrologers cast their charts. This could take weeks, even months. When a gurpurab falls in March and the panth has to wait until February (the usual time) for Benares to come up with an answer, sangats worldwide were left waiting and became unwilling to wait.
The Benares methodology also led to some perplexing problems. It does not have fixed dates for events. The gurpurabs therefore would vary considerably in terms of day and in some instances a gurpurab would fall twice in one year; or a gurpurab would be skipped for years at a time. Such is the nature of casting calendars according to lunar fluctuations.
Developments led to the work of Pal Singh Purewal who developed a calendar that was reviewed and discussed by sangats worldwide. This is the Sikh way. A process of democratic feedback and discussion until a decision can be taken that serves a majority need. In 2003 the Purewal version of the Nanakshai Calendar was finally approved by sangats, not by the top-dogs. Its advantage was that it had "fixed' dates. Everyone could be on the same page and this idea had broad acceptance.
The fly in the ointment. There are sectarian groups within Sikhi who adhere to the Bikram calendar because of philosophical allegiance to brahmin ideas. They never accepted the Purewal verion of the calendar and continued to agitate against it. By 2011 this agitation reached critical mass and Akal Takht declared the Purewal version invalid. We now have something called the Revised Nanakshai Calendar.
You will note that the age-old tradition of panthic discussion preceded the acceptance of the Purewal calendar. However, the Revised Nanakshai calendar was mandated without panthic debate. Consequently, there is controversy, with sangats mainly in North America, Pakistan, parts of the Asia/Pacific regions, and specific sangats within India expressing great dismay that things were handled this way.
I have given much thought to your reply. Which deeply held value of Sikhism should be adhered to in this debate? On the one side is your sense that "wisdom is wisdom" no matter who offers it. On the other side is the historical tradition within Sikhism: issues affecting the panth should be resolved through a deliberative process. Our leaders originally were our servants, not governors or task-masters. Not all "wisdom" is "wisdom" and the Bikram Samvat calendar has ties to a way of thought that Guru Nanak questioned. How does this Bikram calendar reveal the wisdom of its creators to Sikhs?
The concept of equality is another kind of wisdom that begs for a great deal more than mandating a calendar by those playing the top-dogs of Sikhi, and that is what happened in the year 2013.
Sikhs are very different from ancient Christians. We are not waiting for the Pope and a council of the holy hierarchy to give us our orders. The concern is also not about quibbling over a calendar. The concern comes from a perception that the panth is being managed when it should manage itself, and managed in a way that ignores the foundations of Sikhi.
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Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)
That was quite informative...."we" are the normal followers of Baba Nanak ji, we are the people who simply get up in the morning, cover up in a blanket and sit on the floor to recite the Rabbi words of Gurbani, never knowing what is conflict and we should only do the kirt and nam japan. "We" is the person who don't bother to know why Baba Sri Chand ji became an udasin, who do not know the jargon of the so called leaders who are seen on the pages of youtube shouting about Dasam granth or Ragmala or calenders, we are the part sikh, part hindu, part akali,part congressi, part naamdhari, part kooke, part nihang, part ramdasiye, part dere wale babiyan de sewak, part followers of Baba Wadbhaag singh ji, part followers of dera sahib Dehradoon, and a huge crowd of other people who ask us "too kihdi jaat da sikh hain? Sir ji lagada hai sikhi kidhre gum ho gaayee hai,notan te dollaran te poundan de dher vich....
That was quite informative...."we" are the normal followers of Baba Nanak ji, we are the people who simply get up in the morning, cover up in a blanket and sit on the floor to recite the Rabbi words of Gurbani, never knowing what is conflict and we should only do the kirt and nam japan. "We" is the person who don't bother to know why Baba Sri Chand ji became an udasin, who do not know the jargon of the so called leaders who are seen on the pages of youtube shouting about Dasam granth or Ragmala or calenders, we are the part sikh, part hindu, part akali,part congressi, part naamdhari, part kooke, part nihang, part ramdasiye, part dere wale babiyan de sewak, part followers of Baba Wadbhaag singh ji, part followers of dera sahib Dehradoon, and a huge crowd of other people who ask us "too kihdi jaat da sikh hain? Sir ji lagada hai sikhi kidhre gum ho gaayee hai,notan te dollaran te poundan de dher vich....
Re: OCCULTISM Rejection in Sikh Reht Maryada (SRM)
Ahiyapuri ji
You seem frustrated by all the maddening confusion.
I am still not certain who the "we" is your are talking about. Look at it this way. Sikhism is a young religion with a complex history. It should come as no surprise that 25,000,000 are, as you put it, "part sikh, part hindu, part akali, part congressi, part naamdhari, part kooke, part nihang, part ramdasiye, part dere wale babiyan de sewak, part followers of Baba Wadbhaag singh ji, part followers of dera sahib Dehradoon." You left out those that are part BJP, part Damdami, part Nirmala... and more. If someone wanted to, and perhaps someone has done this already, that person with effort could explain the reasons giving rise to each of the strands of religious and political identity on your list. What historical conditions gave rise to each one? None of these groups happened by accident; some purpose was served. The history of each is easy enough to recount. Why did they choose to do it? That is a more difficult question.
Guru Nanak's teachings remove the shackles of caste privilege, terror, brutality, oppression, mind-games, superstition and reliance on otherwise imperfect beings to show the way to the One who dwells in each and every heart. Why then did any or all of these groups choose to follow pathways that complicate, or turn back the clock, and in some cases reverse the efforts of Guru Nanak to simplify our encounter with the divine within us?
YouTube is a great place for learning. I would not however expect to find wisdom there. Wisdom is a private matter.
Ahiyapuri ji
You seem frustrated by all the maddening confusion.
I am still not certain who the "we" is your are talking about. Look at it this way. Sikhism is a young religion with a complex history. It should come as no surprise that 25,000,000 are, as you put it, "part sikh, part hindu, part akali, part congressi, part naamdhari, part kooke, part nihang, part ramdasiye, part dere wale babiyan de sewak, part followers of Baba Wadbhaag singh ji, part followers of dera sahib Dehradoon." You left out those that are part BJP, part Damdami, part Nirmala... and more. If someone wanted to, and perhaps someone has done this already, that person with effort could explain the reasons giving rise to each of the strands of religious and political identity on your list. What historical conditions gave rise to each one? None of these groups happened by accident; some purpose was served. The history of each is easy enough to recount. Why did they choose to do it? That is a more difficult question.
Guru Nanak's teachings remove the shackles of caste privilege, terror, brutality, oppression, mind-games, superstition and reliance on otherwise imperfect beings to show the way to the One who dwells in each and every heart. Why then did any or all of these groups choose to follow pathways that complicate, or turn back the clock, and in some cases reverse the efforts of Guru Nanak to simplify our encounter with the divine within us?
YouTube is a great place for learning. I would not however expect to find wisdom there. Wisdom is a private matter.
palaingtha
SPNer
- Aug 28, 2012
- 270
- 295
- 93
Occult practices are generally and commonly related to,
- astrology, alchemy, divination, magic, and witchcraft and sorcery
SRM unequivocally declares the following,
In the following post palaingtha states that Occult practices are recognized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Unfortunately the author shows considerable lack of understanding in how Guru ji use analogies, metaphorics as style to not prove people wrong or create time wasting debates but rather teach the positive alternatives. Guruji try not to put down things or practices people follow but shine light on better spirituality and ways. Gurujis style is that they want the student (all Sikhs) to self learn and then see.
In not putting down, the author and many others somehow assume that Guruji actually have vetted such powers or practices. Nothing could be further from the truth in such wrong assumptions contorted by many.
Let us take an excerpt as to how palaingtha ji mis-uses and applies missive understanding to somehow deduce that Occultism is recognized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,
In a convoluted way the author seems to suggest that just the mention of such is the proof of their existence, efficacy or acceptance by Guru ji. I believe this is highly dis-respectful and borders on missing the fundamental teachings of Sikhism in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
I sincerely wish that people (at least Sikhs) pay heed to some basic approach to studying and learning from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In this age of the Internet it is far too easy to distort, post and deduce and repeat to make something believable. A Guru ji’s Sikh needs to rise above such temptations and really respectfully cherish the gift of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The gift is not words and quoting them willy nilly but understanding and sharing the wisdom behind the words.
Prof. Sahib Singh ji gives lot of direction in early parts of his Darpan that could be helpful if paid attention to.
What you think!
Sat Sri Akal.
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PS: An excerpt from Prof. Sahib Singh ji’s “sRI gurU grMQ swihb drpx”, from page (6268 of 6299) from the .pdf downloaded from http://www.gurbanifiles.org/,
siqgurU jI dw AwdrS:
KrHvIAW g`lW dw au~qr KrHvy l&zW ivc dyxw bVw koJw qy As`BX au~dm hY [ pr AslIAq ƒ Awp smJxw qy hornW dI smJ-gocrw bxwxw hryk mnu`K dw &rz hY [ AsI dwhvw nhIN krdy ik siqgurU nwnk dyv jI sMsik®q dy ivdvwn sn, jW, auh Aswƒ sMsik®q ivc ilKIAW vyd Awidk Drm-pusqkW pVHwx Awey sn [ auh qW DrqI dy ivlkdy qy sVdy jIvW ƒ jIvn dw shI rwh d`s ky ‘Kunk nwmu KudwieAw’ dy ky TMF vrqwx Awey sn [ lokW ƒ auhnW dIAW aukweIAW Aqy jIvn dw shI rsqw qW hI d`isAw jw skdw sI, jy auh lokW dI smJ-gocrI bolI ivc g`lW krn [ jgq ivc AwieAw hryk gurU pYZMbr Avqwr iehI kudrqI qrIkw vrqdw AwieAw hY, qy iehI vriqAw jw skdw sI [
Summary: Guru ji used common people's ways and understanding and politely guided them towards wisdom. The approach was non-confrontational and based on cool demeanor.
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I am quoting Gurbani Shalokas which depicts the existence of evil spirits. Why give a twist to what I posted. I had only said that Gurbani accepts the existence of evil spirits and that people practice sorcery. It is another issue that Gurbani asks us not to be afraid when you have God's name in your mouth or heart.
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਬਿਘਨੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਣਤ ਜਮੁ ਦੂਰਹੁ ਭਾਗੈ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈਤ ਸਭ
ਦੂਖਹ ਨਾਸੁ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥੧॥ ਨਿਰਬਿਘਨ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਰਸਕਿ
ਰਸਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਚਾਖੁ ਨ ਜੋਹੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦੈਤ ਦੇਉ ਨ
ਪੋਹੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਮੋਹੁ ਮਾਨੁ ਨ ਬਧੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਰੁਧੈ ॥੨॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕੀ
ਸਗਲੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਬਹੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਇਕੇਲਾ ॥ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਜਪੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ
ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੀਐ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਿ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਪੂਰਨ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ
ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਦੇਹੁ ਚਿਤਾਰਿ ॥੪॥੩੬॥੪੯॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੧੫੦
ਅਰਥ :ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਬੜੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਨਾਲ ਸਦਾ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਂਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਕਰ, ਸਦਾ ਹਰੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ
ਜਪਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਕਰ । ਇਹ ਭਗਤੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੇ ਰਾਹ ਵਿਚ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ) ਕੋਈ ਰੁਕਾਵਟ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਣ ਦੇਂਦੀ
।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਦਿਆਂ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੇ ਸਫ਼ਰ ਵਿਚ ਕਾਮਾਦਿਕ ਦੀ) ਕੋਈ ਰੁਕਾਵਟ ਨਹੀਂ
ਪੈਂਦੀ । ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਣਦਿਆਂ (ਜੀਵਨ ਇਤਨਾ ਉੱਚਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ
ਪਾਸੋਂ) ਜਮਰਾਜ ਦੂਰੋਂ ਹੀ ਪਰੇ ਹਟ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ । ਨਾਮ ਜਪਦਿਆਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਤੇ
ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਟਿਕਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ।੧।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਦਿਆਂ ਕੋਈ ਭੈੜੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦੀ, ਕੋਈ ਦੈਂਤ ਕੋਈ ਦੇਉ ਆਪਣਾ
ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾ ਸਕਦਾ, ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਮਾਣ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਕੁਚਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ,
ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਦਿਆਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਫਸਦਾ ।੨।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! (ਜਿਹੜਾ ਭੀ ਸਮਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਜ਼ਾਰਿਆ ਜਾਏ ਉਹੀ ਚੰਗਾ ਹੈ) ਹਰੇਕ ਸਮਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ
ਢੁਕਵਾਂ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਹੀ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ । ਉੱਚੀ ਜਾਤਿ
ਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਚਾਹੇ ਨੀਵੀਂ ਜਾਤਿ ਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਜਿਹੜਾ ਭੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਉੱਚੀਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ।੩।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ (ਰਹਿ ਕੇ) ਜਪਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਦੀ
ਸਹਾਇਤਾ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਰੰਗ (ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਉਤੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ) । ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ!
(ਆਪਣੇ ਦਾਸ) ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤੇ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰ, ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! (ਮੈ ਆਪਣੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਦਾਤਿ) ਦੇਹ (ਤਾ ਕਿ) ਮੈਂ
(ਆਪਣੇ) ਹਰੇਕ ਸਾਹ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ (ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮ) ਚੇਤੇ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਹਾਂ ।੪।੩੬।੪੯।
- Dec 21, 2010
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Palaingtha ji thanks for your post.
palaingtha ji your comment is very insulting to the fundamental way Guru ji teach us to acquire wisdom and thence get rid of nonsense that prevailed then and which continues to prevail now.
Please be proper.
The saloaks do not depict the existence of:
The saloaks simply recognize that some people believed so and it appears based on your post that you still do.
The saloaks recommend simran-jap/contemplation-seek wisdom so that you may not so believe and recognize the truth.
Without repeating myself from the first post, Guru ji rarely rebuke people even if they believed in stuff Guru ji did not ask Sikhs to believe in. They rather ask any such caught in these dilemmas to seek wisdom of the creator and with it will come the understanding to free oneself from such ill thought deviations.
I respect that you are a wise man. I just don’t understand your fetish and infatuation with this subject in a way not at all supported by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Sat Sri Akal.
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palaingtha ji your comment is very insulting to the fundamental way Guru ji teach us to acquire wisdom and thence get rid of nonsense that prevailed then and which continues to prevail now.
Please be proper.
The saloaks do not depict the existence of:
- Evil spirits
- Bhoots/Ghosts
- Preits/Sorcerers
The saloaks simply recognize that some people believed so and it appears based on your post that you still do.
The saloaks recommend simran-jap/contemplation-seek wisdom so that you may not so believe and recognize the truth.
Without repeating myself from the first post, Guru ji rarely rebuke people even if they believed in stuff Guru ji did not ask Sikhs to believe in. They rather ask any such caught in these dilemmas to seek wisdom of the creator and with it will come the understanding to free oneself from such ill thought deviations.
Here you have raised two points. Let us review,
1. accepts the existence of evil spirits: Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not accept the existence of evil spirits and does not espouse it. There is no anti-God or anti-creator in Sikhism versus many other religions like Hinduism, Islam, Christianity to name some which do.
2. that people practice sorcery: Of course Guru ji were aware of such people. The only reason for referring to such practices or people could have been to help them right themselves through wisdom. Guru ji did not adopt the style of telling people to stop believing in what they did. Good teachers never do that. Guru ji used the technique of lighting a light of wisdom in people’s hearts so that they right themselves through acquiring wisdom. Many religions like Islam, Christianity and Hinduism use the carrot-stick approach. Our Guru ji did not do that.
2. that people practice sorcery: Of course Guru ji were aware of such people. The only reason for referring to such practices or people could have been to help them right themselves through wisdom. Guru ji did not adopt the style of telling people to stop believing in what they did. Good teachers never do that. Guru ji used the technique of lighting a light of wisdom in people’s hearts so that they right themselves through acquiring wisdom. Many religions like Islam, Christianity and Hinduism use the carrot-stick approach. Our Guru ji did not do that.
There is nothing about God’s name in you mouth or heart. It is wisdom of the creator that matters and no words or jantar-mantars derived out of words or lines in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Again a common exploitive technique adopted by scrupulous merchants taking advantage of vulnerable within Sikhs and others.
I respect that you are a wise man. I just don’t understand your fetish and infatuation with this subject in a way not at all supported by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Sat Sri Akal.
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palaingtha
SPNer
- Aug 28, 2012
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Ambarsaria Ji,
Sat Sri Akal,
Existence of evil spirits, read:
ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਚਾਖੁ ਨ ਜੋਹੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦੈਤ ਦੇਉ ਨ
ਪੋਹੈ ॥
I understand it means that ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਦਿਆਂ ਕੋਈ ਭੈੜੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦੀ, ਕੋਈ ਦੈਂਤ ਕੋਈ ਦੇਉ ਆਪਣਾ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾ ਸਕਦਾ
I will be happy if you could translate this for me if the meaning is contrary to this.
I will be learning from a healthy discussion. I take the real meaning of the verses without putting in my assumptions.
regards.
Palaingtha ji,
Guru Fateh.
Allow me to chime in here.
Once again, let me reiterate this that acknowledgement of any belief in any other religion does not automatically mean its acceptance in Sikhi. It is rather naive and ignorant to interpret Gurbani in this manner unless one has some kind of personal agenda to discredit the message of SGGS, our only Guru.
Our visionaries Gurus knew that if they just told the believers of Bhoots/Prets/imps to stop believing in them, that would not help. They would believe in this silly stuff even more fervently out of fear instilled by the hierarchy of their religion- The Pundits, who were and still claim to own the souls of the followers and using fear to rake money from them is their only weapon.
Our seekers of Nirbhau, Nirvair gave these believers the true elixir of life, that is to become God loving rather than God fearing which would help them to live their lives in a more peaceful/productive manner through being a good person which does not require parroting of some mantras but doing good. That is what Naam Japnah means. That is what connection with Ik Ong Kaar means.
Our Gurus showed them the way how to get rid of these silly beliefs which made them live in fear for their entire lives after acknowledging them.
Our Gurus were the freedom fighters of the souls that were shackled by the few high and mighty of the society for centuries. To cut these shackles in order to be free, one needs proper tools. That is why SGGS is our only tool box that we ignore to open it and use it to better our lives. We rather sit on it to eat our peanut butter sandwich.
Tejwant Singh
- Dec 21, 2010
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palaingtha ji thanks for your post. A comment as requested.
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Sat Sri Akal.
The rahao line just before what you posted says,
The key words from what you posted and the above are not in conflict but in context,
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- remember the creators wisdom
- ਭਜੁ/bẖajoe is not to verbalize but hear internally
- ਭਜੁ/bẖajoe is not to verbalize but hear internally
- remember the creators wisdom
- ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉ /har ke guṇ gā▫o
- cherish creator's virtues
- ਗਾਉ/gā▫o is not about singing but the internal vibes of understanding
- ਗਾਉ/gā▫o is not about singing but the internal vibes of understanding
- cherish creator's virtues
- ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ /Har simraṯ
- contemplate upon the creator
- ਸਿਮਰਤ / simraṯ is not about chanting but to soak it in internally
- contemplate upon the creator
Sat Sri Akal.
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palaingtha
SPNer
- Aug 28, 2012
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Tejwant Singh Ji,
Gur Fateh.
I have related what I experienced in 1945 and my friend who ignored or in fact the thing that was apparently visible to me was not visible to him. He died the same night.
Regarding the Gurbani I have posted Skaloka from SGGS Ji along with translation by Prof. Sahib Singh. Gurbani do not deny the existence of evil spirits and that is what I am saying. Nothing more.
Do you think that I should not believe what I experienced? Then what about my friend who died asking for Bhat and Machi to be fed to him. On refusal the consequence was his death. Any comments?
I value your views but what Gurbani says is paramount to me!
Palaingatha ji,
Guru Fateh.
Thanks for the response.
I am sorry to disappoint you but Gurbani that you posted does not say what you claim it does, rather to the contrary. I would love to have conversation about that anytime with you or with anyone else.
As far as your personal experiences are concerned, they are for you to decipher and interpret. No one else can do that. Having said that, if your personal experience does not jive with what SGGS, our only Guru teaches us, then again it is up to you and it is your personal decision only how you would like to live in consonance with Ik Ong Kaar as put forth by our Gurus.
Thanks & regards
Tejwant Singh
palaingtha
SPNer
- Aug 28, 2012
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To cut the matter short and say in a few words I would appeal to all Sikh Brothers and Sisters that they go for the real meaning and don't add their imaginations. Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru and Not any individual Sikh. Our Gurus were fearless exponents who said what they believed in without camouflaging their words. Bani is very clear as posted in response to one SPNers posting. The translation is from Prof. Sahib Singh's SGGS Darpan.
Have no doubts about it. People read Gurbani and instead of taking the actual meaning thereof add their imaginations to it assuming Guru Sahib must have meant this and not the word therein say.
palaingtha
SPNer
- Aug 28, 2012
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Tejwant Singh Ji,
Gur Fateh.
I will ask your good self to put yourself for a few minutes in my place. If you had experienced the same as I did what would your belief be. All these evil spirits, spoofs, imps, etc. are just imaginations of some one or you will convince others that the experience was real.
If you think it was my imagination what I experienced then why did my friend asked for Bhat and Machi to be fed to him. His elders were advised by an LMP Doctor not to feed him rice and fish. What about the boy's death. Was it also my imagination?
For existence of evil spirits Gurbani is very clear. Let us read the Bani without adding our imagination to it.
Read SGGS Darpan by Prof. Sahib Singh. That is an authentic translation.
Sat Sri Akal
Dear Tejwant
Ever visited Dera Wadbhag singh ji in H.P. India he was related to 5th guru sahib ji. One visit there and you will see 99% of the visitors are sikhs there. hardly any pundit. it is all managed by sikhs. all believers in occultism, spirits and souls, pretty subtle game there.
Ever visited Dera Wadbhag singh ji in H.P. India he was related to 5th guru sahib ji. One visit there and you will see 99% of the visitors are sikhs there. hardly any pundit. it is all managed by sikhs. all believers in occultism, spirits and souls, pretty subtle game there.
I am not going to reject occultism because i don't feel i have the authority or the right to !!
What I do know for sure is that if these bhoots,ghosts and witches do exist on some other medium, then they are 'stuck' in that DUALITY.
The way i see it is that Gurbani tries to keep us away and makes us aware of the dualities we are faced with.
There are people out there who's lives have changed because of such experiences and encounters.
If i insult someone's intelligence and claim they are just imaging or talking rubbish, then I wouldn't like to label myself as a proud sikh either.
I'm not quite clear how the Rehat maryada tells us that they are all false and nonsense, but i thought it advises us to stay away from superstitions, auspicious days and times...etc...etc.
A sikh has his/her own vehicle(bana and way of life) that takes the sikh along the path and journey to the True Lord and the Truth.
When traveling along this path many crossroads are encountered and crossed along with many speed bumps and diversions.
If the sikh encounters a crossing where a bunch of bhoots and witches are crossing the path, a sikh should just acknowledge and let them pass before proceeding along the journey.
I don't think that the sikh should stop and get out or ask who and what they are or investigate where they came from, because all you are doing is delving into the same duality that they are absorbed and ingrained in.
On should just stop, look and let them pass instead of trying to run them over !!!:swordfights:
Focus on the journey and don't get stuck at the extraordinary duality.
One can only be gurmukh and totally immersed and merged with the ONE Truth if one is Advait (non dual) or outside the confines of dualities.
What I do know for sure is that if these bhoots,ghosts and witches do exist on some other medium, then they are 'stuck' in that DUALITY.
The way i see it is that Gurbani tries to keep us away and makes us aware of the dualities we are faced with.
There are people out there who's lives have changed because of such experiences and encounters.
If i insult someone's intelligence and claim they are just imaging or talking rubbish, then I wouldn't like to label myself as a proud sikh either.
I'm not quite clear how the Rehat maryada tells us that they are all false and nonsense, but i thought it advises us to stay away from superstitions, auspicious days and times...etc...etc.
A sikh has his/her own vehicle(bana and way of life) that takes the sikh along the path and journey to the True Lord and the Truth.
When traveling along this path many crossroads are encountered and crossed along with many speed bumps and diversions.
If the sikh encounters a crossing where a bunch of bhoots and witches are crossing the path, a sikh should just acknowledge and let them pass before proceeding along the journey.
I don't think that the sikh should stop and get out or ask who and what they are or investigate where they came from, because all you are doing is delving into the same duality that they are absorbed and ingrained in.
On should just stop, look and let them pass instead of trying to run them over !!!:swordfights:
Focus on the journey and don't get stuck at the extraordinary duality.
One can only be gurmukh and totally immersed and merged with the ONE Truth if one is Advait (non dual) or outside the confines of dualities.
"Relation" means NOTHING in Gurmatt Context.
Guru Nanak ji showed this by appointing an OUTSIDEr Bhai Lehhnna Ji as GURU and swept aside his blood SONS who were UNWORTHY. SAME happened for Second Guru, third Guru, fourth guru, and so on. BLOOD RELATION were IGNORED in favour of MERIT.
2. Wadbhag master minded an ATTACK on GURU TEG BAHADUR JI...he got someone to fire on guru ji which missed the mark. He ran away.
3. Wadbhag begged the DAL KHALSA for HELP when the Muslims attacked his dera..he apologised and agreed to chhak amrit and STOP his occult ways. But when the Danger passed he reneged on hsi promises and came abck to evil practises.
4. The "Crowds" means NOTHING...they just look like SIKHS...but the very fact of their presence there shows they are NOT SIKHS of SGGS. Looks can be deciebing..just look at a Photo of the BEAS Guru at Radha Soami...he looks more sikh than many sikhs..BUT he is NOT a SIKH...not by a long shot.
I deal with kids on a regular basis..Parents contact me when their kids are afraid of the dark..think monsters are hiding under the bed..they wet beds..etc.
When I advise a kid to sleep with the light on - am i saying i "BELIEVE" a monster is in the darkness ?? IF I get down on the floor with a kid and shine a TORCH under his bed..am I BELIEVING theres a Cookie Monster hiding there...the kid may claim YES..MASTER JI went down under my bed and shone a torch..he also beleives in the Monster i "KNOW" is always there...in FACT some of the KIDS do TELL their friends that I beleive in Monsters..otherwise I woildnt even bother looking under the bed..opening the cupboards to check..and switch on the bed lights...
BUT I DONT beleive..i dont. And when over time the kid grows up..he too realsies that ino Monsters existed..at least five of those "KIDS" are now married and follwoed what i did with their own KIDS....they too got down under the beds and opened the cupboards and etc etc..to show their kids that MONSTERS are a FIGMENT of theIMAGINATION..
GURU SAHIBS were dealing with such "kiddy HUMANS"...and sadly many such humans still exist today...and keep on insisting that Guru ji beleived in their fantasies...as do ???
When I advise a kid to sleep with the light on - am i saying i "BELIEVE" a monster is in the darkness ?? IF I get down on the floor with a kid and shine a TORCH under his bed..am I BELIEVING theres a Cookie Monster hiding there...the kid may claim YES..MASTER JI went down under my bed and shone a torch..he also beleives in the Monster i "KNOW" is always there...in FACT some of the KIDS do TELL their friends that I beleive in Monsters..otherwise I woildnt even bother looking under the bed..opening the cupboards to check..and switch on the bed lights...
BUT I DONT beleive..i dont. And when over time the kid grows up..he too realsies that ino Monsters existed..at least five of those "KIDS" are now married and follwoed what i did with their own KIDS....they too got down under the beds and opened the cupboards and etc etc..to show their kids that MONSTERS are a FIGMENT of theIMAGINATION..
GURU SAHIBS were dealing with such "kiddy HUMANS"...and sadly many such humans still exist today...and keep on insisting that Guru ji beleived in their fantasies...as do ???
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