One Drink Too Many? A Discussion Of Alcohol And Sikhi

[Archived_member14]

Sinner ji,

That excellent post did not seem to come from someone who is confused?

It seems like that because you got to experience only the product of those rare moments when there is some inspiration. But of course I didn’t need to tell you that. ;-) On another list I go by the name of “Ignorant†and if I join a new one, I think it will be “Deliriousâ€. 0
But thanks for your compliments Sinner ji.

I’d now like to comment on this part of your post:

The one effect that is 'good' is that when tipsy we start to get honest with our selves and others and we stop projecting an image of what we want to be and see ourselves as we are.(some won't like what they see though!)

When I was still drinking, there were times when under the influence of alcohol, I’d be inspired to talk about religion. At those times like you, I would think that the drink created a positive effect. But now I don’t think so, because as I said, I believe that alcohol intake conditions heedlessness. It doesn’t sound right to me that a little of it creates positive conditions and when more has been consumed, suddenly the positive becomes negative.

I think what happens is that we become uninhibited in what we’d like to express, and this doesn’t come from any good intention. Perhaps also, that it is a matter of attachment coming in the place of what otherwise would have been aversion which we happen to see the fault in, but not in the attachment that is now. If we have a tendency to talk about women, we’d talk about the topic more freely and if we like to talk about religion, we do this even more. This I believe is all centred on “self†and what self likes to do.

And as I said also, that shamelessness increases. So what comes across as honesty when drunk may actually be an act of exposing oneself. At times that we are not drunk, there’d be some holding back due to moral shame, which is what is lacking when under the influence of alcohol. We reveal secrets when drunk to almost anyone, and this is clear sign that it comes from an unwholesome state of mind. And not only this, but we can see that we also talk freely about other people, present or not, and this again shows lack of concern for the other.

What do you think Sinner ji?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Confused ji isn't the real truth one that is stated without intention. I am not condoning, encouraging or shareholder in a brewery.

I take particular note of the following in your post,

I think what happens is that we become uninhibited in what we’d like to express, and this doesn’t come from any good intention. Perhaps also, that it is a matter of attachment coming in the place of what otherwise would have been aversion which we happen to see the fault in, but not in the attachment that is now. If we have a tendency to talk about women, we’d talk about the topic more freely and if we like to talk about religion, we do this even more. This I believe is all centred on “self†and what self likes to do.

I have known people who were womanizers, cheaters, etc., and would refuse to drink. This they did to avoid having loose lips. As the saying goes, "Loose lips sink a thousand ships".

Had they started drinking, would it not have resulted in them being exposed early to recognize their bad ways versus continuing the same in the name of, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!".

I think drinking cuts in many directions and it ain't all bad otherwise we will have to call far too much good humanity bad including the power of some people to do extreme evil which they don't in spite of drinking.

When I got him out he was near froze solid and shivering. He was shaking so hard that I wasted half a glass of whiskey trying to aim it for his mouth. Must have got enough of it into him, though, since it did seem to bring him back to life.




Abraham Lincoln, on what it took to save his dog after pulling him from a river where he went through thin ice ​

Confused ji I do enjoy your posts. You have much wisdom and a different perspective from us in Sikhism and it is great for mutual learning, or at least for me.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

'Confused' Ji

I understand what you are saying ,but like after drinking a truth serum we only expose how well adjusted we are,I also like my Veera do not condone it , I just feel it has nothing much to do with Sikhi, as that is a spiritual journey ,so what would a 'spirit 'you consume have to do with it!
I feel that we should not seek an experience from a beverage,I feel those who do not feel the 'experience' of faith might try to do so.
To me abstinence is not a 'categorical imperative' ,it is has merit though, I see however more merit in those who drink the essence of the Guru's Word.

 

[Archived_member14]

Ambarsaria ji,


Good to be conversing with you again. 0

Confused ji isn't the real truth one that is stated without intention. I am not condoning, encouraging or shareholder in a brewery.

I take particular note of the following in your post,

I think what happens is that we become uninhibited in what we'd like to express, and this doesn't come from any good intention. Perhaps also, that it is a matter of attachment coming in the place of what otherwise would have been aversion which we happen to see the fault in, but not in the attachment that is now. If we have a tendency to talk about women, we'd talk about the topic more freely and if we like to talk about religion, we do this even more. This I believe is all centred on 'self' and what self likes to do.

Intention is there in each moment of experience, in other words, there is no moment when intention does not arise. It can however be good, bad or neither depending on the particular type of consciousness which it accompanies.

When one decides to drink alcohol, this is desire, and when under its influence, again it must be desire most of the time. Good exists during moments such as generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, understanding, respect and so on, and these can arise at any time at all. When under the influence of alcohol however, if good does arise, this will be *in spite of* having taken the alcohol. So we must be very careful not to come to a conclusion that perhaps it is because of the alcohol that good arose, since this would most definitely be a wrong understanding.

What no doubt does arise are much ignorance and much attachment. And it is due to the influence of wrong understanding that certain manifestations of these are sometimes mistaken for good. This gets worse when like this man named Gurdjieff, because of the kind of misperception and wrong understanding, one starts to believe that it may be good to take alcohol within limits and controlled. And the consequence of this is enslavement of a heavy kind.

I have known people who were womanizers, cheaters, etc., and would refuse to drink. This they did to avoid having loose lips. As the saying goes, "Loose lips sink a thousand ships".

Had they started drinking, would it not have resulted in them being exposed early to recognize their bad ways versus continuing the same in the name of, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!".

Good and evil comes down not to outward action, but the state of mind. In the example you give, had the person drunk and got exposed, this may or may not have resulted in a decision to stop cheating or womanizing. What however is clear is that if he does end up stopping these things, but not as a result of understanding nor due to moral shame, but instead due to fear, nothing good comes out of this. Perhaps in the eyes of ‘society’ and those around him who have their own interest in mind, he is seen as good, but this is not the criterion to consider such kind of thing. After all this would be exactly the same as the praise he’d get for not drinking as in what you state, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!" Because in reality, the ignorance continues, and attachment and aversion simply changes objects and manifests in other forms. Perhaps even in the decision to pray and go to the Gurdwara regularly, which I think you’d agree is something none of us should be fooled by.

I think drinking cuts in many directions and it ain't all bad otherwise we will have to call far too much good humanity bad including the power of some people to do extreme evil which they don't in spite of drinking.

That could be due to the tendency for restraint which as I said above, would arise in spite of the drinking. And remember, that it is never *the person* that good or evil is. Good and bad refer to states of mind. Drinking alcohol is motivated by attachment, and refraining from drinking is a training rule. So none of this involves pointing a finger at others. Indeed we should not judge people; however neither should we make the mistake of judging an evil act as being good.

Why should one have a problem with the idea that ignorance, attachment and aversion thrives and good is extremely rare by comparison in the world today? Do you not see evidence of this every day? That so many people drink is not unexpected. Pointing a finger at them is not going to help. On the other hand however, it must be worse if we actually condone drinking to any degree.

Quote:When I got him out he was near froze solid and shivering. He was shaking so hard that I wasted half a glass of whiskey trying to aim it for his mouth. Must have got enough of it into him, though, since it did seem to bring him back to life.


Abraham Lincoln, on what it took to save his dog after pulling him from a river where he went through thin ice

Alcohol as medicine is another matter, although I question the claim that it helps the body get warm, but this is another topic. Drinking as medicine (and only a little would be required in this case) is not the same as drinking to experience pleasure.

Confused ji I do enjoy your posts. You have much wisdom and a different perspective from us in Sikhism and it is great for mutual learning, or at least for me.

Thank you for saying it Ambarsaria ji.

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurfateh

As this is turning into a bit of a one sided debate, I would like to ask two questions:-

1. How many people would like to see drinking in moderation included in the Rehat Maryada.
2. At what point in your life do you do your best to comply with the present Rehat Maryada.

I know I have compared drinking to lust/ego and the rest of the five thieves, however one small matter escaped me, when you feel lust, or pride, more often than not, its a feeling in your belly you have no control over, ie, you cannot help yourself, it is in your head but to have a drink, you have to make an effort to pour out a glass, and drink it, so maybe they are not the same, maybe its a lack of discipline coupled with a desire to do what we want and fit it in with sikhi.

For the record, my answers would be

1., NO
2. After Amrit Chakia, all time spent before should be in getting ready for your new life as khalsa, make your mistakes, learn, conquer your demons, and when you are ready, kneel down and offer the Guru your head

comments please dear sangat

 

[Ambarsaria]

Gurfateh

As this is turning into a bit of a one sided debate, I would like to ask two questions:-

1. How many people would like to see drinking in moderation included in the Rehat Maryada.
2. At what point in your life do you do your best to comply with the present Rehat Maryada.

I know I have compared drinking to lust/ego and the rest of the five thieves, however one small matter escaped me, when you feel lust, or pride, more often than not, its a feeling in your belly you have no control over, ie, you cannot help yourself, it is in your head but to have a drink, you have to make an effort to pour out a glass, and drink it, so maybe they are not the same, maybe its a lack of discipline coupled with a desire to do what we want and fit it in with sikhi.

For the record, my answers would be

1., NO
2. After Amrit Chakia, all time spent before should be in getting ready for your new life as khalsa, make your mistakes, learn, conquer your demons, and when you are ready, kneel down and offer the Guru your head

comments please dear sangat

Harry Haller ji people drafting the SRM at times were wiser than some of the people manipulating SRM. Alcohol is of course against Gurmit but it is a minor discretion like any indiscretion against what is written in SRM. See the quoted below,

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gurimq dI rihxI​

(Living in light of Guru’s teachings)​

k) hr iek kMm krn qoN pihlW vwihgurU A`gy Ardws kry[
§ Do Ardas before starting any task

K) is`K leI gurmuKI dI ividAw pVHnI zrUurI hY[ hor ividAw BI pVHy[
§ It is important for a Sikh to learn Punjabi, may get other education too.

c) is`K mrd AQvw iesqRI nUM n`k, kMn, Cydnw mnHW hY[
§ Sikh man or woman shall not pierce their nose or ears.

|) is`K BMg, APIm, Srwb, qmwkU Awid nSy nw vrqy[ Aml pRSwdy dw hI r`Ky[
§ Sikh should not use addictive substances like Cannabis, Opium, Alcohol. And Tobacco. The addiction shall be to basic food.

\) corI XwrI nw kry, jUAw n Kyfy[
§ Shall not scheme or steal and do not gamble.

2.AMimRq sMskwr​

(Amrit Rites)​

ieh cwr kurihqW nhIN krnIAW:-
§ The following four Kurehats (no-nos) shall not be done.

1) kysW dI by-AdbI
§ Desecration of hair.

2) ku`Tw Kwxw[
§ Do not eat meat made the Islamic way.

3) pr-iesqRI jW pr-purS dw gmn (Bogxw)[
§ Illicit relations with another woman or man.

4) qmwkU dw vrqxw[
§ Use of Tobacco.

ienHW ivcoN koeI kurihq ho jwvy qW muV ky AMimRq Ckxw peygw[ AwpxI ie`Cw ivru`D AnBol hI koeI kurihq ho jwvy qW koeI dMf nhIN[
§ For an Amritdhari Sikh, any indiscretion of the above four Kurehats with knowledge requires the Sikh to go through re-baptization.



T) qnKwhIey ieh hn:-
§ Tankhaiye are the following,

5. koeI nSw(BMg,APIm,Srwb,posq,kukIn Awid) vrqx vwlw[
§ Anyone addictive user of such like (Cannabis, Opium, Alcohol, Doday (Poppy Husks)),Cocaine.
7. rihq ivc koeI Bu`l krn vwlw[
§ Maker of any mistakes with respect to Sikh Rehat Maryada.

a) ijs iksy is`K pwsoN rihq dI koeI Bu`l ho jwvy qW auh nyVy dI gur-sMgq pws hwzr hovy Aqy sMgq dy snmu`K KVHo ky AwpxI Bu`l mMny[
§ If a Sikh has made any mistake per Sikh Rehat Maryada, they should approach and attend local congregation and admit to their failing.

In the above you will notice that the onus is on you if you consider you have done a Rehat (not Kurehat) indiscretion. In a very flexible way, SRM provides you support for being a Tankhayia if you want to bring it to Sangat (congregation's attention). If you can handle it within yourself, it is up to you.

Now going to Gurdwara, I have not seen huge line ups of people wanting to admit their "Tankhayia" status like,

• Users of Alcohol
• With Ears or nose pierced
• Having bought a Lottery ticket (Gambling)
• ...... list to be a Tankhayia is very long
• ...... I hazard a guess that everyone at SPN is at a minimum a Tankhayia
• ...... There are many at SPN who done Kurehats,
  • Let us make sure we don't confuse "Kurehat" with rehats as Kurehats are,
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​

1) kysW dI by-AdbI
Desecration of hair.

2) ku`Tw Kwxw[
Do not eat meat made the Islamic way.

3) pr-iesqRI jW pr-purS dw gmn (Bogxw)[
Illicit relations with another woman or man.

4) qmwkU dw vrqxw[
Use of Tobacco.
​

​

There is nothing more and nothing less.


Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

Gurfateh

As this is turning into a bit of a one sided debate, I would like to ask two questions:-

1. How many people would like to see drinking in moderation included in the Rehat Maryada.
2. At what point in your life do you do your best to comply with the present Rehat Maryada.


comments please dear sangat

Harry ji

First thanks for all of your provocative and thoughtful comments.

It is difficult to define "moderation" without opening the door to an infinite number of takes on the word "moderation." What is moderate drinking? Do you think that anyone who has an answer will be defining "moderate" in terms of a number? Or in terms of the effect one or more drinks has on his/her life? Either way their answers in turn open the door to a lot of rationalization: e.g., 3 drinks is too many because I lose my cool and get paranoid, so that means that 2 drinks is OK. I do not drink, and would be baffled to know what to say. At one time I did drink occasionally and was one of those individuals who could have one martini and that would be that... to the marvel of every one else who could not stop at 2. All of that makes me a poor choice of people to answer the question, like most non-drinkers, which Sikhs are supposed to be.

The question runs askew of what the SRM is getting at. Alcohol has no significant benefits and many demerits. It is a destroyer of life and moral fabric at its worse. The SRM is merely repeating the message of Gurbani --- 'don't do this to yourself, don't drink. '

My personal opinion: there is no genuinely clean and logical way to ponder where to draw the line, or even know if a line can even be drawn. So I would say even 1 drink is 1 drink too many... only my interpretation.

The second question is hard to understand, unless you are asking: When do you comply and when do you ignore parts of the SRM? Or are you asking at what moment in your life did you begin to comply with the SRM?

 

[Harry Haller]

Ambersariaji, please excuse my ignorance, but are you saying the drinking alcohol would not require re baptism for an amritdhari sikh?

SPNadminji, I suppose I am asking at what point do you embrace fully the SRM and not just pick the bits out of it you feel you can cope with, for example, logically, if you were able to fulfill 50% of the SRM, personally I would see it as pointless taking baptism, maybe 80% but, if you can only do say, 30% then you would be better off waiting, does that make sense?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Harry Haller ji some comment below,

Ambersariaji, please excuse my ignorance, but are you saying the drinking alcohol would not require re baptism for an amritdhari sikh?

That is correct. Only Kurehats require re-baptization.

Furthermore, if any of the Kurehats is an innocent or inadvertent mistake, it does not require re-baptization.

SPNadminji, I suppose I am asking at what point do you embrace fully the SRM and not just pick the bits out of it you feel you can cope with, for example, logically, if you were able to fulfill 50% of the SRM, personally I would see it as pointless taking baptism, maybe 80% but, if you can only do say, 30% then you would be better off waiting, does that make sense?

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

Ambersariaji,

It is quite interesting to note that the use of alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, are forbidden, but it is the addiction to them that is the Tankhayia.

Of course this means having to use your brain instead of following blindly

Im going to have to concede that Guru gave as free will, to encourage us to find our own peace within his guidelines, thank you again for your clarification, btw thats two thank you's in 5 mins, I must have gone up a decimal point

 

[Harry Haller]

I had a long chat with my wife about this, my own conclusion is that there is nothing with the odd drink, as long as it is in moderation, and it does not own you, so, no I do not feel that the odd drink is going to stand in your way to finding the creator, and in finding the creator, you will find that your desire for the odd drink is diminished to nothing, at which point you are completely in consonance, but not out of fear, or duty, or respect, but out of sheer choice, however this begs another question, what do we do about our youth, how do you explain to a 19 year old turbanned sikh, who is looking to you for guidance about drink, that he needs to make his own peace with it, and I think that is the key issue here.

we are, mostly that have contributed to this posting for moderation, grown men, who have seen life and gone through the curious phase, how do we guide our kids??

 

[findingmyway]

It is not about addiction but about controlling your mind. addiction is only 1 form of losing control. Even 1 drink causes you to lose control as even 1 drink will lower inhibitions somewhat whether you realise this or not. Even 1 drink is not allowed as per sikhi. Alcohol affects the mind more than tobacco but it is more socially acceptable which is why it is defended more often. If you are ashamed to drink in Gurdwara then you should not be drinking at home. If its not about the effect on your mind and the way it makes you feel then why not just have fruit juice or something else in your cup?

Dear Harry Ji
Do not judge the sardar in the pub it might be one light beer he is consuming after a week of heavy work ,there is no shame in him having a beer (aslong as he does not pinch someone elses!)

I am not judging but I do not understand why the bottle or glass has to contain a beer rather than a soft drink? Please explain.

Dear Isna Ji and Way Ji
I understand that we should not encourage anyone ,as three members of my extended family are alcoholic I understand what a waste of a life it can be.

By saying to drink is ok, you are encouraging.

Had they started drinking, would it not have resulted in them being exposed early to recognize their bad ways versus continuing the same in the name of, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!".

Not if anyone around them was also drunk!

I had a long chat with my wife about this, my own conclusion is that there is nothing with the odd drink, as long as it is in moderation,

That's the point! Moderation is not possible all the time.

 

[findingmyway]

I think drinking cuts in many directions and it ain't all bad

I've asked several times but still no-one has told me a good point of drinking.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Findingmyway ji,
The point of drinking, like all other things, is to run after a pleasant experience or to run away from an unpleasant experience.

Lol that sounds funny (and sad and pathetic), since we are usually doing that most of the time.

 

[Ambarsaria]

I've asked several times but still no-one has told me a good point of drinking.

findingmyway ji it is fun, comaradarie, way to chill out physically and the way people choose to do so. To achieve the same ends you cannot keep suggesting that you keep stuck to spirituality or do this instead of that. People have their ways.

Not that people drinking lose spirituality by default or always. It is part of creation giving each and everyone to their own ways and flexibility as a wholesome package with some goods, some bad and some in-betweens.

The sooner people accept how others are and not how they want them to be, the sooner possible communication happens in a positive atmosphere and then one has a way to suggest better ways.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[findingmyway]

The drinkers on the thread seem to enjoy wilfully misunderstanding me ot perhaps it is my fault for not expressing myself as well as I should. I do not project my expectations of others but simply state what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says. Most of my family and friends are drinkers and I have never told them to stop. However, I have respect for my family members who drink as they are honest and courageous enough to admit that drinking is not allowed in Sikhi but they want to do it anyway. They do not try and rationalise it. There are a lot of things I do wrong too but I can also admit I am in the wrong according to Gurbani without forcing others to approve of me and what I do.

It is not about dictating do this and do that but about taking responsibility for one's own actions and being honest to yourself. It is about understanding Gurbani and not changing the meaning to make oneself feel better.

I personally see alcohol as a bigger hindrance than not keeping kesh. However, as I said earlier I have more respect for someone who is honest about what they are doing, why and how it fits in with what we are taught by our Guru's.

I never said that a person loses spirituality by default from drinking. However, due to the physiological effect of alcohol and other drugs, it can act as a hindrance to spirituality, at least while partaking in consuming the substance. Yes lots of other things also act as a hindrance but that doesn't mean we can ignore any of them. What a person does with that information is up to them. However, on a Sikh discussion forum I will keep stating what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on this issue in a non-judgemental way.

Comraderie and chilling out can be achieved with the same people, same atmosphere with a soft drink in the glass. No-one is staying teetollalers have to be complete stick in the muds! If you can't even conceive giving up anything then that is an addiction!

I repeat, I am not saying you must give up alcohol. However, I am saying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is clear on this issue so the choice is yours. Knowing and following are 2 different things.

 

[Ambarsaria]

<!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> findingmyway ji I think you are perhaps making more out of their replies than they mean. At least for myself I will calrify by annotating appropriate parts of your post below,

The drinkers on the thread seem to enjoy wilfully (I don't willfully) misunderstanding me ot perhaps it is my fault for not expressing myself as well as I should. I do not project my expectations of others but simply state what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says (Let us say what Sikh Rehat Maryada says). Most of my family and friends are drinkers and I have never told them to stop. However, I have respect for my family members who drink as they are honest and courageous enough to admit that drinking is not allowed in Sikhi but they want to do it anyway (I believe that is what so called drinkers or like who do not take it as seriously are stating. These are not Alcoholics trying to find a drink at the first instance that they can find it.). They do not try and rationalise it. (I did not rationalize but stated what I feel) There are a lot of things I do wrong too but I can also admit I am in the wrong according to Gurbani without forcing others to approve of me and what I do.

It is not about dictating do this and do that but about taking responsibility for one's own actions and being honest to yourself. (People taking an occasional drink cannot be classified dis-honest just for that action. When someone drinks they are not calling it Orange juice

. I have seen Vodka with orange juice as quite popular with some ladies in parties)) It is about understanding Gurbani and not changing the meaning to make oneself feel better ( Idon't change .

I personally see alcohol as a bigger hindrance than not keeping kesh. (Now this perhaps is a bit of a stretch and I will not understand it. I think it is the other way around.) However, as I said earlier I have more respect for someone who is honest about what they are doing, why and how it fits in with what we are taught by our Guru's.

I never said that a person loses spirituality by default from drinking. However, due to the physiological effect of alcohol and other drugs, it can act as a hindrance to spirituality, at least while partaking in consuming the substance. Yes lots of other things also act as a hindrance but that doesn't mean we can ignore any of them. What a person does with that information is up to them. However, on a Sikh discussion forum I will keep stating what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on this issue in a non-judgemental way.
(Please quote a complete shabad as this will be very good to review.)

Comraderie and chilling out can be achieved with the same people, same atmosphere with a soft drink in the glass. (see this is what I warned about in my post. This is how people may mis-understand you. For a person who is drinking anything in a glass is a soft drink except what others may want to call it. Yes this drink has alcohol in it.) No-one is staying teetollalers have to be complete stick in the muds! If you can't even conceive giving up anything then that is an addiction!

I repeat, I am not saying you must give up alcohol. However, I am saying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is clear on this issue so the choice is yours. Knowing and following are 2 different things.

The above is in the essence of a dialog, not to justify drinking or encouraging, and neither to classify people as though if you drink you are bad and if you don’t drink you are good. Good and bad is lot deeper than such.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Veera

Sorry you had to debate against the mighty 'Way' yourself,I was a bit busy with my CV.

I myself think it is not good or bad as a substance,the abuse of it is wrong.
Just as the love of money is the root of all evil and not money.

I drink not because it is good but because I prefer to drink a little wine with my bread.
I don't like soft drinks full of sugar or artificial sweetner but I do like Ginger beer .
Any way who cares what we drink, you know what it all ends up as !winkingmunda

 

[findingmyway]

Ambarsaria ji,
I have never said people who drink are good or bad but the act of drinking is destructive and to date no-one has given me a positive of it that cannot be achieved by other ways. You keep insisting I am calling drinkers bad and that is wilfully misunderstanding me. It is the substance that is bad due to its effects on the body and mind (even in small doses).

Gurbani is eternal, the SRM can change. Gurbani states alcohol and other intoxicants cannot be consumed. I have delved into this extensively previously so please go back and check the other threads. Having said that even the SRM states alcohol should not be consumed, as you have stated in a previous post.

Using what happens in society is muddying the waters as a way of getting acceptance for drink. Guru Nanak Ji did not do this but used philosophy to determine beliefs. Alcohol affects the brain and this is the rationale for it being mentioned in Gurbani along wioth other drugs. In the modern wrold, alcohol has been legalised so most people don't (or won't) realise it is a drug, an intoxicant even in small amounts.

I do not understand the comment about soft drink. By definition a soft drink is one which does not contain alcohol so your comment makes no sense. I still do not understand why the insistence on accepting alcohol? Maybe we should all stick to plain old water!

I am currently working 7days/wk so won't be logging in for some time so you have plenty of opportunities to twist my words and paint me as judgmental even though that is not what I am saying.

 

[Ambarsaria]

findingmywayji I have no plans to respond to your posts on this subject further.

I respect your many other contributions and one difference is not worth wasting all that for. I generally greatly appreciate and like your write-ups.

Sat Sri Akal.