One God, So Many Religions

[arshdeep88]

one thing is that what Guru Nanak Mahraj said is way above our wisdom
we can not even think about some things which he has the wisdom to state
we may not infer whole life which he said in bani
i have just taken the the Shabad with translation from one well defined source where translation of guru granth sahib ji is there
if you have some other source where other translation is there you can also put it

its not that i have translated it
forget about muslims even some sikhs dont agree to certain things in Shabad
its my perception that says to me GOD is one whether be of Muslims or be it of christians or of hindus
i have just posted the page number and shabad with reference to my doubts and the thread title reference
mine doubts have been eradicated which sometimes i too use to wonder whether there are different gods for different religions
you others may have other perception
that's why i earlier mentioned our interpretation of things and knowledge around also play a key role

 

[Tejwant Singh]

one thing is that what Guru Nanak Mahraj said is way above our wisdom
we can not even think about some things which he has the wisdom to state
we may not infer whole life which he said in bani
i have just taken the the Shabad with translation from one well defined source where translation of guru granth sahib ji is there
if you have some other source where other translation is there you can also put it

its not that i have translated it
forget about muslims even some sikhs dont agree to certain things in Shabad
its my perception that says to me GOD is one whether be of Muslims or be it of christians or of hindus
i have just posted the page number and shabad with reference to my doubts and the thread title reference
mine doubts have been eradicated which sometimes i too use to wonder whether there are different gods for different religions
you others may have other perception
that's why i earlier mentioned our interpretation of things and knowledge around also play a key role

Arshdeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

SGGS translations are a dime a dozen all over. But, if we do not interpret the Shabads for our own understanding in order to use Gurbani in our daily lives, they become useless and worthless.

Please share your own understanding of the Shabad and what kind of impact it has had on your personal life, so we call all learn through your Sikhi journey.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_member15]

One of Kabir's Shabads in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji:

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥

प्रभाती ॥

Parbẖāṯī.

Prabhaatee:



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

बेद कतेब कहहु मत झूठे झूठा जो न बिचारै ॥

Beḏ kaṯeb kahhu maṯ jẖūṯẖe jẖūṯẖā jo na bicẖārai.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

जउ सभ महि एकु खुदाइ कहत हउ तउ किउ मुरगी मारै ॥१॥

Ja▫o sabẖ mėh ek kẖuḏā▫e kahaṯ ha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫o murgī mārai. ||1||

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||



</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#babac7><TD>ਮੁਲਾਂ ਕਹਹੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ॥

मुलां कहहु निआउ खुदाई ॥

Mulāʼn kahhu ni▫ā▫o kẖuḏā▫ī.

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

तेरे मन का भरमु न जाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Ŧere man kā bẖaram na jā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ ॥

पकरि जीउ आनिआ देह बिनासी माटी कउ बिसमिलि कीआ ॥

Pakar jī▫o āni▫ā ḏeh bināsī mātī ka▫o bismil kī▫ā.

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥੨॥

जोति सरूप अनाहत लागी कहु हलालु किआ कीआ ॥२॥

Joṯ sarūp anāhaṯ lāgī kaho halāl ki▫ā kī▫ā. ||2||

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਿਆ ਉਜੂ ਪਾਕੁ ਕੀਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਧੋਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

किआ उजू पाकु कीआ मुहु धोइआ किआ मसीति सिरु लाइआ ॥

Ki▫ā ujū pāk kī▫ā muhu ḏẖo▫i▫ā ki▫ā masīṯ sir lā▫i▫ā.

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥

जउ दिल महि कपटु निवाज गुजारहु किआ हज काबै जाइआ ॥३॥

Ja▫o ḏil mėh kapat nivāj gujārahu ki▫ā haj kābai jā▫i▫ā. ||3||

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

तूं नापाकु पाकु नही सूझिआ तिस का मरमु न जानिआ ॥

Ŧūʼn nāpāk pāk nahī sūjẖi▫ā ṯis kā maram na jāni▫ā.

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਤੇ ਚੂਕਾ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੪॥

कहि कबीर भिसति ते चूका दोजक सिउ मनु मानिआ ॥४॥४॥

Kahi Kabīr bẖisaṯ ṯe cẖūkā ḏojak si▫o man māni▫ā. ||4||4||

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||



Note the first Tuk:

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thoughts? Is the translation accurate and if so what does it teach us?

 

[arshdeep88]

Tejwant singh ji
Gurfateh Ji
i cant say what ever i have interpreted is absolutely 100% right from the Shabad itself
as i accept my mind is not 100% perfect to interpret things as they are originally meant to be
nor i am so much scholar or read guru granth sahib ji often
but yeah when ever i get time i do try to study ,understand and try implying it.
Sometimes i am not able to get things originally from the shabad so i try to get to the original source from where it is with some translation for better understanding
but what i can gather through my understanding is that Creator is the one and only for all people be it of every religion ,i can feel the same God existing everywhere for everyone
some have defined different characteristics of CREATOR some have defined other
for example some may like me for me nature while some may like me for my help
some may like me for my kindness(just an example it doesn't mean i am kind or helpful)
the creator who created people whether its muslim ,christian ,sikhs and hindus has to be ONE
i cant imagine god different for muslims ,hindus etc etc
interpretation of god and religions can be different i agree but the TRUTH has to be pointing out to ONE

as i myself asked one question in the forum that does the way of worshiping gods and differences in religion arose only due to differences in geographical conditions ,traditions ,and one's understanding and one's interpretation

what impact it had on me?
it helps relating myself to all,be he or she of any religion
the person of other religion has been created by the same creator who has created me,so a feeling of we all are alike
again its just my perception
please sir i am no one to be learned or to be followed as i am mere sinner ( i mean it )
everyone learns from his own journey and experiences
Sat sri akal ji

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Vouthon ji,

Guru Fateh.

Note the first Tuk:

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
Thoughts? Is the translation accurate and if so what does it teach us?

Please share your own understanding about the Shabad.

Secondly, how does one contemplate the following in the Bible?

1."Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. " (Genesis 19:23-25, 30-36, NKJV)

2. How about condoning Slavery and inequality between the 2 genders in the Bible?

I can give you many other verses from the Bible to contemplate on. I am sure you are aware of them.

Please do not quote someone else. That does nothing but clutters the threads. Share your own contemplation with us.

Then you will find what the first line of the Salok means.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Vouthon ji

It is time now that you also give your understanding of the texts you copy. It is not enough to paste them as if leaving trace evidence of a forgotten truth. Let's hear what you think in your own voice. Thanks

 

[Ishna]

Vouthon ji,

Guru Fateh.

Note the first Tuk:



Please share your own understanding about the Shabad.

Secondly, how does one contemplate the following in the Bible?

1."Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. " (Genesis 19:23-25, 30-36, NKJV)

2. How about condoning Slavery and inequality between the 2 genders in the Bible?

I can give you many other verses from the Bible to contemplate on. I am sure you are aware of them.

Please do not quote someone else. That does nothing but clutters the threads. Share your own contemplation with us.

Then you will find what the first line of the Salok means.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

My two cents.. I'm usually hesitant to give my understanding because I'm not very smart and poetry is difficult for me to understand, made more difficult by fumbling with translations.

The shabad appears (to me) to be saying it's no good indulging in rituals and outward displays. If you'd contemplated Truth you'd know that everything is One and would be pure on the inside, but because many people don't contemplate on the deeper things and instead just follow 'teachings' blindly they become hypocrites and lose. But I'm taking liberties by using my other knowledge of Gurbani to answer the questions raised by Kabir Ji.

With particular regard to the first tuk, it seems to be suggesting that the Truth is in those scriptures too but you've got to dig deep to find it, i.e. contemplate on those texts, to really understand and imbibe the core truths into your being. This applies to Sikhs too!! Compare you're typical 'born Sikh' at the Gurdwara who has his hair and hates it to one who is seriously taking time to study and learn and adore.

IMHO.

I would also like to add that the Bible isn't one huge lecture on morality and ethics. It's full of stories and history (real or imaigned I'm not into that debate) which shouldn't be seen as 'teachings on behaviour', for example the incest of Lot's daughters. That was a story, not a teaching recommending daughters to copulate with their fathers.

Further the problem with any sacred text is that it gets stuck in time. They reference things that are valid in a particular time and place, and present solutions to problems there, or ways of living that probably were more workable in that environment at that time but that don't apply now. [excluding the core truths which will last forever, found by contemplation on deeper mysteries]

I think this problem also applies to Gurbani although to a lesser extent because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is mostly poetry in praise of (something, nothing, apparently no one knows anymore), and not stories or examples of history. But there are references to history of the time, for example the shabads referencing Babar's invasion.

 

[arshdeep88]

Can we take this as far as to say that the Muslim God and the Hindu God Hanuman are one and the same?

Hanuman?
is that you think god of hindus is?
or is it that most of the HINDUS have made Hanuman to be god?

it is just like if some sikh claim gurus to be god,or muslims to call prophet mohammad to be god
Hindus never refer hanuman as god ,they refer him RAM dhoot,Bhagat of RAM(ram of ayodhya)which is different discussion all together to who actually he was

i have many hindu friends whom in past i had asked about their perception,what i concluded is that YES majority of them do believe RAM,KRISHNA,SHIVA etc as GODs
but at the same time dnt even have scriptures or conclusive proof from the respective hymns to claim where it is written that they are the CREATOR
and yet there are some profound learners who say ram,krishna etc are not the GODS citing some times Vedas

Truth can only be found if we read and get deep into their respective religious books
,just because few hindus are going Hanuman temple to worship doesnt means the ceator of hindus is Hanuman

 

[spnadmin]

arsgdeeo 88 ji

Hanuman is one of hundreds. My question asks whether one can substitute Hanuman for Parabrahm. What do you think?

The translator adds "Muslim God" and it is not there. The translator adds "Hindu God" and it is not there. The translator has created the impression that Muslim God Allah = Hindu God Parabrahm.

To call Parabrahm a Hindu God is a poor translation for Parabrahm because Parabrahm is not exactly a Hindu god in the same way as Vishnu or Shiva or for that matter Hanuman. Parabrahm is an all pervading principle who is also without form.

The tuk does not mean Muslim God Allah and Hindu God Parabrahm are interchangeable, because the meaning of Parabrahm has been developed throughout the shabad to be something else. We read the shabad and we see what that is.

To answer my own question. Guru Nanak is saying the Parabrahm is immanent within Allah. Did Muslims accept that in Guru Nanak's time or today? Maybe if they were/are Sufis. Allah for Muslims tends always to be transcendent and stands apart from creation. Here Guru Nanak is turning the beliefs that surrounded him around once again. He is saying the Parabrahm pervades even Allah. The translation "they are one and the same" is wrong because it misses what is in the closer translation ... Allah and the Parabrahm are not the same. It is simply stated in only 3 words Ėko alhu pārbarahm Allah and Parabrahm are one.

The question of whether the nirgun is conscious goes unanswered.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to respond to this particular part of your post.

I would also like to add that the Bible isn't one huge lecture on morality and ethics. It's full of stories and history (real or imaigned I'm not into that debate) which shouldn't be seen as 'teachings on behaviour', for example the incest of Lot's daughters. That was a story, not a teaching recommending daughters to copulate with their fathers.

I beg to differ with you. The Bible is full of morals, ethics, dos and do nots by giving examples through the stories given in it. I can quote many verses from the Bible to elaborate my point if you like.

Further the problem with any sacred text is that it gets stuck in time. They reference things that are valid in a particular time and place, and present solutions to problems there, or ways of living that probably were more workable in that environment at that time but that don't apply now. [excluding the core truths which will last forever, found by contemplation on deeper mysteries]

Yes, the reason they are stuck in time is because of the subjective truths not due to the objective reality. The case in point is about everything revolving around the Earth. Poor Galileo was sent to "The Devil's Island" because he saw the objective reality. Only in 1992, the Catholic Church admitted the objective reality about the Earth revolving around the Sun. Poor Galileo was long dead to hear that.

Subjective truths also are called Absolute Truth etched in stone (the 10 commandments). I can quote many other things which are betrayal to the norms of the society of today from different scriptures because of their subjective truths. People are certain that Jesus will return and convert all the non-believers and the ones who do not will be thrown in the cauldron of Hell and the rest will be saved for eternity. One wonders who is going to pay for their health insurance!

I think this problem also applies to Gurbani although to a lesser extent because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is mostly poetry in praise of (something, nothing, apparently no one knows anymore), and not stories or examples of history. But there are references to history of the time, for example the shabads referencing Babar's invasion.

I beg to differ with you again. Here is my take about it which I mentioned in my speech at the Interfaith Forum and still stand by it:

"The poetry of the Guru Granth is in itself a subject worthy of the highest consideration. Music forms the basis of the rhythms and classification of the hymns.

This form is not only used to preserve the originality of the composition, as the poetry written in this form is difficult to imitate, but more so to provide the divine experience through the medium of music.

Further, poetry can be left to the culture and the times that follow to best interpret the message".

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...orum-2011-religious-principles-spiritual.html

Babavani is as current and fresh as the freshly picked strawberries. It is all about injustice, abduction and rapes and Guru Nanak stood against all this and urges us today to do the same. These things still happen today. I live in Las Vegas and I am on the Mayor's committee to combat underage/teenage prostitution. I know how hard the unit fights to catch the pimps and save the girls. I have been with these units at night times when they catch these predators. Nothing has changed.

The poetic Gurbani did not stop in time as compared to other scriptures but to the contrary, it refreshes our thought process with the new times.


Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[arshdeep88]

arsgdeeo 88 ji

Hanuman is one of hundreds. My question asks whether one can substitute Hanuman for Parabrahm. What do you think?

The translator adds "Muslim God" and it is not there. The translator adds "Hindu God" and it is not there. The translator has created the impression that Muslim God Allah = Hindu God Parabrahm.

To call Parabrahm a Hindu God is a poor translation for Parabrahm because Parabrahm is not exactly a Hindu god in the same way as Vishnu or Shiva or for that matter Hanuman. Parabrahm is an all pervading principle who is also without form.

The tuk does not mean Muslim God Allah and Hindu God Parabrahm are interchangeable, because the meaning of Parabrahm has been developed throughout the shabad to be something else. We read the shabad and we see what that is.

To answer my own question. Guru Nanak is saying the Parabrahm is immanent within Allah. Did Muslims accept that in Guru Nanak's time or today? Maybe if they were/are Sufis. Allah for Muslims tends always to be transcendent and stands apart from creation. Here Guru Nanak is turning the beliefs that surrounded him around once again. He is saying the Parabrahm pervades even Allah. The translation "they are one and the same" is wrong because it misses what is in the closer translation ... Allah and the Parabrahm are not the same. It is simply stated in only 3 words Ėko alhu pārbarahm Allah and Parabrahm are one.

The question of whether the nirgun is conscious goes unanswered.

you are right we cant substitute hanuman with or be any one of the hundreds with Parbraham which the translator is saying to be with reference to the hindu god
sister ji,hanuman might be the one of the hundreds what hindus mythology believe it to be ,but you and me also know he is not the TRUE creator of hindus ,
if i here define god accordingly to me HE who is the creator of all
creator of me ,creator of you ,creator of all other people on the forum
here .I may have different view of the creator ,you may have different ,others may have different.
its not like hindus were created by different god ,muslims by different or me by different

and in my views none of the hundreds believed be it shiva ,hindu or vishnu can replace the TRUE one
i am not seeing it from that prospective relating Hindu Creator to countless gods believed to be in Hindu mythology be it rama ,krishna and shiva or etc
i am just trying to see from this prospective the CREATOR who created muslims hindus sikhs or even christians is one and the same

 

[spnadmin]

arshdeep ji

Let me start first by saying that I do not believe that god exists. I do believe that Kartar is real.

You bring up the idea of "Creator" ... Kartar, who is timeless and self-created. The Sikh idea, and forgive my mistakes, is that Kartar pervades all creation and is beyond all creation, is formless nirgun and evident in creation sargun. Kartar is simple yet mighty, a paradox, who does not give speeches or work miracles through human messengers and prophets. Kartar is here and there, for all time and beyond time. If Parabrahm is the image in the shabad, it is Kartar as the Parabrahm who brings "light" breathes "life" into the universe. Kartar does not need to self-manifest through human or animal avatars or incarnations because Kartar is already present in everything.

For me it is jarring to hear that this or that god and Kartar are the same when Gurbani does not even say that and the equation doesn't make any sense. What makes sense to me is that Kartar is not like a god at all but is, in some way, a part of all the visions and versions of god that humans have imagined over centuries. Kartar has always been and will always be Kartar no matter what other gods are imagined in the future.

Is Kartar conscious? Maybe next week things will seem different to me. Tonight I do not think consciousness is a necessary condition because the doer of everything is also the creator of consciousness, and therefore beyond consciousness.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

arshdeep ji

Let me start first by saying that I do not believe that god exists. I do believe that Kartar is real.

You bring up the idea of "Creator" ... Kartar, who is timeless and self-created. The Sikh idea, and forgive my mistakes, is that Kartar pervades all creation and is beyond all creation, is formless nirgun and evident in creation sargun. Kartar is simple yet mighty, a paradox, who does not give speeches or work miracles through human messengers and prophets. Kartar is here and there, for all time and beyond time. If Parabrahm is the image in the shabad, it is Kartar as the Parabrahm who brings "light" breathes "life" into the universe. Kartar does not need to self-manifest through human or animal avatars or incarnations because Kartar is already present in everything.

For me it is jarring to hear that this or that god and Kartar are the same when Gurbani does not even say that and the equation doesn't make any sense. What makes sense to me is that Kartar is not like a god at all but is, in some way, a part of all the visions and versions of god that humans have imagined over centuries. Kartar has always been and will always be Kartar no matter what other gods are imagined in the future.

Is Kartar conscious? Maybe next week things will seem different to me. Tonight I do not think consciousness is a necessary condition because the doer of everything is also the creator of consciousness, and therefore beyond consciousness.

Spnadmin ji,

Guru fateh.

Very well said.

I want to thank you for untangling this self tangled web of our minds.You have simplified it very eloquently.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ishna]

Tejwant Ji

I beg to differ with you. The Bible is full of morals, ethics, dos and do nots by giving examples through the stories given in it. I can quote many verses from the Bible to elaborate my point if you like.

You don't have to beg with me, you are allowed to differ.

The Bible does have a lot of morals and instructions, and many are told via stories. But not all of them, or every aspect of them, for example the incest of Lot's daughters.

Yes, the reason they are stuck in time is because of the subjective truths not due to the objective reality. The case in point is about everything revolving around the Earth. Poor Galileo was sent to "The Devil's Island" because he saw the objective reality. Only in 1992, the Catholic Church admitted the objective reality about the Earth revolving around the Sun. Poor Galileo was long dead to hear that.

Subjective truths also are called Absolute Truth etched in stone (the 10 commandments). I can quote many other things which are betrayal to the norms of the society of today from different scriptures because of their subjective truths. People are certain that Jesus will return and convert all the non-believers and the ones who do not will be thrown in the cauldron of Hell and the rest will be saved for eternity. One wonders who is going to pay for their health insurance!

Are you saying religion can't be cognizant of objective reality?

Babavani is as current and fresh as the freshly picked strawberries. It is all about injustice, abduction and rapes and Guru Nanak stood against all this and urges us today to do the same. These things still happen today. I live in Las Vegas and I am on the Mayor's committee to combat underage/teenage prostitution. I know how hard the unit fights to catch the pimps and save the girls. I have been with these units at night times when they catch these predators. Nothing has changed.

The poetic Gurbani did not stop in time as compared to other scriptures but to the contrary, it refreshes our thought process with the new times.

If the Babavani can be reading about historical events and learning from them, how is that different to stories of morality that appear in other scriptures?

I'm wary of taking the thread too far off topic with this discussion.

 

[arshdeep88]

what i have learned from this form is till now everyone has his her own perception and his /her understanding
and neither no one is right nor are wrong nor i claim my understanding to be be perfect
i will keep my differences to myself
i can only talk from my understanding
i tried getting views of all on this topic of creator the TRUE GOD the same for all because that's till today i understood it to be not just to make warmness or anything its just my perception allowed me to see things this way
when i see any person around him irrespective of religions i think to myself he has been made by the same creator who has created me
i feel paths are different but proper understanding leads to one source of destination
that's what my view and understanding allows me to infer
till today my understanding might be wrong
bhul chuk khima g
i humbly bow out of this discussion
Sat sri Akaleacesign:

 

[Archived_member15]

Dear Tejwant and Spn,

Thank you both for your posts.

My understanding of the Shabad is that Kabir is referring, first of all, to Muslim and Hindu fanatics who declare each others scriptures to be false. He then tells them that, contrary to this understanding, one should view neither the Vedas, the Bible or the Qur'an as "false" but rather should contemplate their overall teachings and moral messages deeply.

Kabir is trying to enlighten people to see the utter futility of fighting or arguing over the teachings of various "holy books" of the world and not to claim that they are not true or useless to living a wise life.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, by including such a poem by Kabir, is suggesting that people should read sacred scriptures - any sacred scriptures - with the right frame of mind, a searching, open, respectful, impartial, non-judgemental state of mind and not to form a negative judgement regarding any of the holy books. To comprehend the underlying reality; the fullness of truth conveyed in the philosophy of any faith cannot be achieved by a casual look at a few lines of the holy text quoted out of context, bereft of its historicity, genre or subtext. Some religions require many years of deep investigation to reach a developed, fair and penetrating insight. Hence why in a religion such as Judaism, whose central sacred scripture the passage on Lot is from, has developed exegesis disciplines such as the mystical Kabbalah tradition which expounds verses of the Torah with an informed, spiritualized reading that might not be apparent to the casual reader. In Christianity centuries of church fathers, mystics and theologians such as the scholastics have formed a vast, almost unimaginably huge and diverse exegetical tradition which views the Bible as having "four senses":


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Religious people have put great efforts into expounding and understanding various layers in their scriptures.

Kabir was an ecumenist. He refused to identify himself purely with either the Islam of his birth or the Hinduism he encountered in his teenage years. Rather he formed his own inclusive path: The Kabir Panth.

He tried to embody in his new path everything that he saw to be good, holy and true from the deepest reservoirs of Islamic and Vedantic spirituality. He probably was conversant with aspects of the Bible too, meaning that he tried to embody the non-dogmatic, spiritual aspects of Judaic and Christian scripture as well.

Kabir was therefore praised by all faiths as one of the greatest of all mystics for his clear, un-doctored insight into truth, uncoloured by religious fervour or doctrinal bias. He is one of the most impartial witnesses to spiritual realities that history has known.

 

[spnadmin]

Vouthon ji

Threads are supposed to engage conversation. You are and have been spamming us with yards of copy and paste. Please go back and edit these comments so they do not break down the dialog. Make them shorter. Consider the frustrations of a reader who is trying to follow the discussion and has to go back 2 pages to pick up where he left off. Contribute to the dialog. Use the quotes as examples here and there. If yards of gurbani were being pasted into threads the same concerns would be voiced. When Musims discuss by quoting the Quran over and over, the same request is made. Please abide by this request. spnadmin

 

[Archived_member15]

Dear Spn

I am currently on a train using my phone so I cannot edit the above posts atm. Later I have a Good Friday service to attend. Afterwards however I will edit the posts as you ask.

Kind regards

Vouthon

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I also think it is now timely for us to wish our Veera Vouthon a very Happy Easter!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

I'm wary of taking the thread too far off topic with this discussion

This is part of the thread and my post was addressed to Vouthon who has never responded to my questions directly but posts contradictory statements from others which have nothing to do with the conversation we are having. I have no idea what his true agenda is. I would call it passive proselytising, to put it mildly. We have many people from other religions who also try to do that rather than having conversation. I hope and "pray" that at least he responds to one of my many posts directed to him with questions rather than copying and pasting some irrelevant stuff.

You chimed in and rightfully so, hence we are having a conversation.

The Bible does have a lot of morals and instructions, and many are told via stories. But not all of them, or every aspect of them, for example the incest of Lot's daughters.

Then what is the meaning or lesson we can draw out from this story? Is there a following verse that condemns this kind of behaviour? After all it is part of the religious scripture and put their for some moral lessons. What is the true and meaningful agenda here which we can learn from?

Ishna ji, please do not take my questions personally. You are helping me to think aloud so I can understand things from others' perspective. I am thankful for that.

Are you saying religion can't be cognizant of objective reality?

I did not say that. In fact, Sikhi according to me is based on objective reality because it did not stop in time as other religions did. The 1429 pages of the poetic Gurbani prove that.

I would request you to give me concrete examples, in this case, from all 3 Abrahamic religions and Hinduism which Kabir ji is talking about for me to grasp any part of objective reality. I gave you the examples of the subjective truths from them which also include 82 virgins, Hell, Heaven, Multiple gods,Vengeful angry god/s, Condoning slavery,Caste system, Concubines and many more.

Ishna ji, I am here to learn. Hence, open for that.

If the Babavani can be reading about historical events and learning from them, how is that different to stories of morality that appear in other scriptures?

It may be true if the other verses do not contradict them. Case in point The 10 Commandments. Please give me some concrete examples about the above.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh