They were behind the protest, but said the violence was due to another element.
UK Police And Public Injured As Violence Flares At "Peaceful" Dudley Protest
- Status
Sinner Singh ji
Welcome to SPN. welcomekaur You could not say this better!
Track the entire history on the Internet since the early part of the year. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON. And it has not stopped yet. There are no boundaries to it, and the next steps will not be about alcohol, dancing and meat. Extorting concessions through strong arm tactics is the name of the game.
My own personal theory is that the earlier protests in UK versus sangats that hosted Professor Darshan Singh were ineffective. The next step was to form an organization that could coordinate action of any and all kinds. You have only to take a look at certain internet forums to get a day by day update on where SatKaar is with its "progressive discipline of sangats." You have only to read two news venues on the net associated with a certain panthic organization. Then you will realize how coordinated this effort it.
I though Sikhs wore blue not brown.
Welcome to SPN. welcomekaur You could not say this better!
Track the entire history on the Internet since the early part of the year. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON. And it has not stopped yet. There are no boundaries to it, and the next steps will not be about alcohol, dancing and meat. Extorting concessions through strong arm tactics is the name of the game.
My own personal theory is that the earlier protests in UK versus sangats that hosted Professor Darshan Singh were ineffective. The next step was to form an organization that could coordinate action of any and all kinds. You have only to take a look at certain internet forums to get a day by day update on where SatKaar is with its "progressive discipline of sangats." You have only to read two news venues on the net associated with a certain panthic organization. Then you will realize how coordinated this effort it.
I though Sikhs wore blue not brown.
Archived_Member16
SPNer
Police begin scouring CCTV footage over Sikh protest
2:41pm Tuesday 31st May 2011
POLICE are beginning the huge task of scouring through hours of CCTV footage to identify the violent perpetrators from the weekend protest at a Dudley Sikh community centre.
Committee members at the Sikh Cultural Centre on Swancote Road, which is owned by the Guru Nanak Singh Sabha Gurdwara opposite in Wellington Road, are also beginning a clean-up and repair work after the demonstration on Saturday, with the building set to be closed for at least a week.
Violence erupted at around 12.45pm when 200 militant protesters complained about meat and alcohol being consumed inside the centre.
What started as a peaceful sit down protest soon escalated into disorder when a minority of protestors started throwing missiles at officers before forcing their way into the building.
Demonstrators, thought to be from the UK Sangat - a national organisation which protests against code breaking temples - were protesting against a private party being held in the community centre, as they felt the owners had insulted the Sikh faith by allowing the party to take place there.
Once access was gained to the centre, the group smashed windows and doors and caused significant damage inside before refusing to leave until the centre managers had agreed to ban the supply of food and drink on the premises.
However police have since confirmed they believed there were no meat dishes being prepared during the event, only vegetarian meals.
Officers from across the West Midlands force, including the dog squad, were called to attend the incident to restore order and assist in negotiations, which led to surrounding roads being closed for five hours, while the force helicopter hovered overhead throughout capturing the incident on camera.
The fracas left a police sergeant with concussion and a Pc with dental injuries, while two members of the public also received head injuries.
All have since been discharged from hospital after receiving further treatment.
Officers also took a coach to the centre under police escort to take the innocent centre users to safety.
Protestors ended their occupation of the building at around 6pm, before specialist forensic officers moved in to seal off the area and search for evidence.
A 28-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of violent disorder at the scene, but was later released on police bail bending further inquiries.
Chief Inspector Deb Doyle, who led the police response to the disorder, said: "I would urge those responsible for the violence to hand themselves in to their local police station immediately or face officers arresting them at home in the very near future."
Anyone with information should call Dudley police on 0345 113 5000 or Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.
Back
© Copyright 2001-2011 Newsquest Media Group
http://www.dudleynews.co.uk
"Is the Sikh Cultural Centre on Swancote Road owned by the Guru Nanak Singh Sabha Gurdwara in Wellington Road?
Sikh Cultural Centre manager Sucha Singh is quoted as saying that the Sikh Cultural Centre 'had been partly funded by Dudley Council money and under the terms of it's operation was run as an all-faith venue'.
If that is the case then the Sikh Cultural Centre is at least partially owned by the people of Dudley as a whole rather than exclusively by one section of the community."
source: http://www.dudleynews.co.uk/news/9057230.Police_begin_scouring_CCTV_footage_over_Sikh_protest/
2:41pm Tuesday 31st May 2011
POLICE are beginning the huge task of scouring through hours of CCTV footage to identify the violent perpetrators from the weekend protest at a Dudley Sikh community centre.
Committee members at the Sikh Cultural Centre on Swancote Road, which is owned by the Guru Nanak Singh Sabha Gurdwara opposite in Wellington Road, are also beginning a clean-up and repair work after the demonstration on Saturday, with the building set to be closed for at least a week.
Violence erupted at around 12.45pm when 200 militant protesters complained about meat and alcohol being consumed inside the centre.
What started as a peaceful sit down protest soon escalated into disorder when a minority of protestors started throwing missiles at officers before forcing their way into the building.
Demonstrators, thought to be from the UK Sangat - a national organisation which protests against code breaking temples - were protesting against a private party being held in the community centre, as they felt the owners had insulted the Sikh faith by allowing the party to take place there.
Once access was gained to the centre, the group smashed windows and doors and caused significant damage inside before refusing to leave until the centre managers had agreed to ban the supply of food and drink on the premises.
However police have since confirmed they believed there were no meat dishes being prepared during the event, only vegetarian meals.
Officers from across the West Midlands force, including the dog squad, were called to attend the incident to restore order and assist in negotiations, which led to surrounding roads being closed for five hours, while the force helicopter hovered overhead throughout capturing the incident on camera.
The fracas left a police sergeant with concussion and a Pc with dental injuries, while two members of the public also received head injuries.
All have since been discharged from hospital after receiving further treatment.
Officers also took a coach to the centre under police escort to take the innocent centre users to safety.
Protestors ended their occupation of the building at around 6pm, before specialist forensic officers moved in to seal off the area and search for evidence.
A 28-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of violent disorder at the scene, but was later released on police bail bending further inquiries.
Chief Inspector Deb Doyle, who led the police response to the disorder, said: "I would urge those responsible for the violence to hand themselves in to their local police station immediately or face officers arresting them at home in the very near future."
Anyone with information should call Dudley police on 0345 113 5000 or Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.
Back
© Copyright 2001-2011 Newsquest Media Group
http://www.dudleynews.co.uk
"Is the Sikh Cultural Centre on Swancote Road owned by the Guru Nanak Singh Sabha Gurdwara in Wellington Road?
Sikh Cultural Centre manager Sucha Singh is quoted as saying that the Sikh Cultural Centre 'had been partly funded by Dudley Council money and under the terms of it's operation was run as an all-faith venue'.
If that is the case then the Sikh Cultural Centre is at least partially owned by the people of Dudley as a whole rather than exclusively by one section of the community."
source: http://www.dudleynews.co.uk/news/9057230.Police_begin_scouring_CCTV_footage_over_Sikh_protest/
Dear Spnadmin ,I could not believe that when I posted on that other forum in opposition to the protest even one of the moderators was for it and deleted my posts.I recieved alot of hostility there and this is the "best" of the negative postings:
"Be savvy to Mr Singh ways - it is very clear that he dislikes the Khalsa Panth & the 5 K's Guru Gobind Singh Ji gifted to the Panth.Dear Sadh Sangat Ji,you all know that Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, and his daughter Indira Gandhi wanted the Sikhs to forget Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the Khalsa Panth Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji started, and the 5 K's Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gifted to the Panth!! We can all supply this forum with loads of references to statements and press releases from Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, and his daughter Indira Gandhi, where, they clearly disrespected Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj, the Khasla Panth, and the 5 K's (especially the Kirpan). All 3 of them hated the Amritdhari of the Khalsa Panth who follow the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj!Dear Sadh Sangat Ji, you also know that it is a known fact, that, Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi were the direct descendants of Gangu Ram. Gangu Ram was the individual who tricked Mata Gujri Ji and the two infant Sahizade, Sahibzada Zorawar Singh Ji (only 7 years old) and Sahibzada Fateh Singh (only 5 years old), to his house. Gangu Ram then informed the Kotwal of Morinda about their presence in his house. Then Jaani Khan brought them as prisoners to Sirhind. Faujdar Wazir Khan of Sirhind imprisoned them in the Thanda Burj (cold Fort). This lead to Mata Gujri Ji dying in the tower and the two infant Sahibzade being bricked alive. The Sahibzades knee caps were smashed in with a hammer to keep the wall straight, whist they were conscious. The wall fell when it reached their necks, and I have heard, that at that point, their throats were slit. These infant sons of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj endured all the pain and shaheedi to keep the Panth and the 5K's going, which you all enjoy today. You will clearly see that Mr Singh has an inherent hate for the Panth and the 5K's (the Amritdhari of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj). All Mr Singh can do to try and compare to the infant Sahibzade, is say 'give me your real name brother" The Sahibzade were not campaigning for grown men to drink alcohol whilst watching ladies and girls dance on land that would be registered to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, and then robbed from Guru Ji him for £1. Mr Singh campaigns for that. If you try to show Mr Singh why this is wrong he will call you extreme. As soon as you make any references to the Guru's, or Shaheeds in history, Mr Singh will call you extreme!!! I'm sure that if, Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, and Mr Indira Gandhi (daughter of Nehru) and descendant of Gangu Ram, were still alive to oppress and supress the Khalsa Panth, then they would all have given Mr Singh and big hug and kiss, for continuing their work for them!!! I am sure Mr Singh is made very happy and proud by this thought, of Gandhi, Nehru, Indira, Gangu Ram all patting Mr Singh on his back, for him continuing their work today!!If any , regular user of this forum can tell me Mr Singh is not totally an anti-Gurmat servant of Mahatma Gandhi, and Gangu Ram's direct descendants (that's true) Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi, I will listen to that user. You can clearly see from Mr Medare's posts in the link below, that Mr Singh as an inherent hater for the Amrtdharis of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa Panth! "
"Be savvy to Mr Singh ways - it is very clear that he dislikes the Khalsa Panth & the 5 K's Guru Gobind Singh Ji gifted to the Panth.Dear Sadh Sangat Ji,you all know that Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, and his daughter Indira Gandhi wanted the Sikhs to forget Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the Khalsa Panth Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji started, and the 5 K's Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gifted to the Panth!! We can all supply this forum with loads of references to statements and press releases from Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, and his daughter Indira Gandhi, where, they clearly disrespected Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj, the Khasla Panth, and the 5 K's (especially the Kirpan). All 3 of them hated the Amritdhari of the Khalsa Panth who follow the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj!Dear Sadh Sangat Ji, you also know that it is a known fact, that, Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi were the direct descendants of Gangu Ram. Gangu Ram was the individual who tricked Mata Gujri Ji and the two infant Sahizade, Sahibzada Zorawar Singh Ji (only 7 years old) and Sahibzada Fateh Singh (only 5 years old), to his house. Gangu Ram then informed the Kotwal of Morinda about their presence in his house. Then Jaani Khan brought them as prisoners to Sirhind. Faujdar Wazir Khan of Sirhind imprisoned them in the Thanda Burj (cold Fort). This lead to Mata Gujri Ji dying in the tower and the two infant Sahibzade being bricked alive. The Sahibzades knee caps were smashed in with a hammer to keep the wall straight, whist they were conscious. The wall fell when it reached their necks, and I have heard, that at that point, their throats were slit. These infant sons of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj endured all the pain and shaheedi to keep the Panth and the 5K's going, which you all enjoy today. You will clearly see that Mr Singh has an inherent hate for the Panth and the 5K's (the Amritdhari of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj). All Mr Singh can do to try and compare to the infant Sahibzade, is say 'give me your real name brother" The Sahibzade were not campaigning for grown men to drink alcohol whilst watching ladies and girls dance on land that would be registered to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, and then robbed from Guru Ji him for £1. Mr Singh campaigns for that. If you try to show Mr Singh why this is wrong he will call you extreme. As soon as you make any references to the Guru's, or Shaheeds in history, Mr Singh will call you extreme!!! I'm sure that if, Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, and Mr Indira Gandhi (daughter of Nehru) and descendant of Gangu Ram, were still alive to oppress and supress the Khalsa Panth, then they would all have given Mr Singh and big hug and kiss, for continuing their work for them!!! I am sure Mr Singh is made very happy and proud by this thought, of Gandhi, Nehru, Indira, Gangu Ram all patting Mr Singh on his back, for him continuing their work today!!If any , regular user of this forum can tell me Mr Singh is not totally an anti-Gurmat servant of Mahatma Gandhi, and Gangu Ram's direct descendants (that's true) Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi, I will listen to that user. You can clearly see from Mr Medare's posts in the link below, that Mr Singh as an inherent hater for the Amrtdharis of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa Panth! "
On the dates matter ,they demanded the committee be brought there by police escort after the group had entered the Community Centre and refused to leave untill the paper had been signed,it was signed while the mob and police were inside and the peaceful protesters outside.
It is not good for a majority to impose their values/views on a minority.In a pluralist society there will be differences in the interpretation of the goods or ideals to be achieved .Protestants and Catholics share essentially the same faith but differ in conventions.
I see a legitimate distinction between the Hall over the road and the Gurdwara itself .If you do not see it ,thats ok, its only my opinion.
The gropu is claiming these protests are victories.I understand they have noble intentions, but their attitude on the day was peremptory.
While we are on the subject of breaking conventions. I wish to provoke thought on ,What is the telos of the Sikh Religion and is Abstinence a Categorical Imperative? I asked this on that forum too!
It is not good for a majority to impose their values/views on a minority.In a pluralist society there will be differences in the interpretation of the goods or ideals to be achieved .Protestants and Catholics share essentially the same faith but differ in conventions.
I see a legitimate distinction between the Hall over the road and the Gurdwara itself .If you do not see it ,thats ok, its only my opinion.
The gropu is claiming these protests are victories.I understand they have noble intentions, but their attitude on the day was peremptory.
While we are on the subject of breaking conventions. I wish to provoke thought on ,What is the telos of the Sikh Religion and is Abstinence a Categorical Imperative? I asked this on that forum too!
Sinner Singh ji You write today like an inspired person. I can believe everything you say.
This is their unwavering method...browbeat, shame, threaten, delete, intimidate, and foment incivility publicly.
You are not the first. You will not be the last. I am grateful that you have come here and posted what seems to be first-hand knowledge of the event. Thanks from us. welcomemunda
This is their unwavering method...browbeat, shame, threaten, delete, intimidate, and foment incivility publicly.
You are not the first. You will not be the last. I am grateful that you have come here and posted what seems to be first-hand knowledge of the event. Thanks from us. welcomemunda
I must admit the finance secretary is my dads cousin, but I'm trying to be objective,I posted 50 replies last week on the Satkaar protest thread,( I was trying to prevent the protest). I also phoned up Sangat Tv the night before to try to say we don't need coaches turning up.
I posted that the best thing was for subsidiarity rather than got to the Highest Authority namely the Akaal Takht,leave these matters to Dudley Sangat!
The Hall was originally called the Community Centre in the last ten years some how one committee changed it to Sikh Cultural Centre ,it is also loss making in the year to 2010 the hall lost 18k,this was my first post and email to Satkaar:
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Dear Khalsa You are the the Panth of the Pure ,the Cream of the Crop.
I’m just an ordinary member of Dudley Gurdwara’s sangat ,I have made many donations to their projects , I hold it dear in my heart and should like to defend it’s good name .
If the committee need to rent out the Community Centre, which is on the other side of the road ,and then put those much needed funds to good use in the Gurdawara ,is that not a means to an ends.
A Gurdwara is a separate entity to the buildings next to it or adjacent to it,my grandfather a retired Soldier helped in the early days of the Gurdwara back in the seventies.How do Sikh Sangat represent our Gurdwara if you never make a donation or do seva here but only interfere with their enterprises.Have you ever built a Gurdwara from scratch ,through hard work and donations and then tried to keep it running.You are not accountable for the running of the Gurdwara’s community enterprises so why disrupt there endeavours.Your campaign seems to be to coerce the committee into allowing only the same practices in separate buildings as allowed in the Gurdwara ,so where does it end ,do we take our shoes off in Community Centres next.This is a Good Gurdwara ,they would never allow beadbi ,What is this petty protest, Our Guru is not being disrespected, but his Dudley Sikhs are by you .Battle those being raped or killed in the world, that would be worthy of your mighty heritage.Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
I posted that the best thing was for subsidiarity rather than got to the Highest Authority namely the Akaal Takht,leave these matters to Dudley Sangat!
The Hall was originally called the Community Centre in the last ten years some how one committee changed it to Sikh Cultural Centre ,it is also loss making in the year to 2010 the hall lost 18k,this was my first post and email to Satkaar:
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Dear Khalsa You are the the Panth of the Pure ,the Cream of the Crop.
I’m just an ordinary member of Dudley Gurdwara’s sangat ,I have made many donations to their projects , I hold it dear in my heart and should like to defend it’s good name .
If the committee need to rent out the Community Centre, which is on the other side of the road ,and then put those much needed funds to good use in the Gurdawara ,is that not a means to an ends.
A Gurdwara is a separate entity to the buildings next to it or adjacent to it,my grandfather a retired Soldier helped in the early days of the Gurdwara back in the seventies.How do Sikh Sangat represent our Gurdwara if you never make a donation or do seva here but only interfere with their enterprises.Have you ever built a Gurdwara from scratch ,through hard work and donations and then tried to keep it running.You are not accountable for the running of the Gurdwara’s community enterprises so why disrupt there endeavours.Your campaign seems to be to coerce the committee into allowing only the same practices in separate buildings as allowed in the Gurdwara ,so where does it end ,do we take our shoes off in Community Centres next.This is a Good Gurdwara ,they would never allow beadbi ,What is this petty protest, Our Guru is not being disrespected, but his Dudley Sikhs are by you .Battle those being raped or killed in the world, that would be worthy of your mighty heritage.Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Veer ji, Few doubt that Dudley is a good gurdwara that would not allow a beadbi. You know I have been following all the developments with Satkaar for months now, and all the Internet coverage this beadbi watch project has been getting on both the Internet "news" and "panthic" forums. Sooner or later the mindset of "doing God's work" had to backfire. This time it did. Pray that it ends soon. Pray that more sangats are not targeted. Pray that the "agenda" does not expand. Pray that Sikhs in UK will be able to show up for services without wondering what is going to come bursting through the door and take "darshan" of Guru ji.
The protest unfortunately is not "petty."
This is what one respected person ,who knew the facts posted:"The facts about Dudley Community Centre are very simple. The community of Dudley decided to build a community centre for the purpose of small parties to celebrate birthdays, weddings and other functions. It was always clear that alcohol and meat would be served on such occassions and that as a sign of respect, the enterance to the community centre would not be facing the Gurdwara. The contributors of this project have been funded by donations and the generosity of Dudley Metropolitan Council. When this community centre was built no Gurdwara donations were used to build or fund the community centre. Furthermore when the GNSS Temple was demolished and re-built there were no Temple funds used to contribute towards the running of the community centre when it was temporarily used to house the Granth Sahib.Dudley Council would not give grants of hundreds of thousands of pounds if any individual religious group stipulated that they would use the community centre for their individual needs. Therefore this centre was built for the purpose of use by all members of the Dudley community.There is no need for anyone to distrupt this function on 28th May 2011 and causing aggrevation to a innocent Sikh families happy occassion. Dudley is a peaceful community and we are capable of dealing with our own moral and religious affairs."
May I add parties have been held there for over 15 years! What I meant to say by petty ,is the issue of the transfer of title was petty ,as this seems to have prompted the protest as much as the Committee's party taking place.
May I add parties have been held there for over 15 years! What I meant to say by petty ,is the issue of the transfer of title was petty ,as this seems to have prompted the protest as much as the Committee's party taking place.
I would like to say that my opinion on them being good is not based on me knowing them well.It is just my personal view that someone who decides to do seva would not have the intention of doing Beadbi .I rarely attend the Gurdwara now, as I live 120 miles away,but I emailed the protestors out of fondness for my childhood days, which were spent there.
I do not know what the day to day workings, politics.Committees come and go ,they are judged to be good or not good for their management skill. I try not to look at their flaws ,as I have plenty of my own to look at.
One person asked me repeatedly "How do you know the committee to be good people" I replied "that I assumed that all sevadaars are good people and that my respect was for the institution itself as much as it was for them."
I hope that makes some sense
I do not know what the day to day workings, politics.Committees come and go ,they are judged to be good or not good for their management skill. I try not to look at their flaws ,as I have plenty of my own to look at.
One person asked me repeatedly "How do you know the committee to be good people" I replied "that I assumed that all sevadaars are good people and that my respect was for the institution itself as much as it was for them."
I hope that makes some sense
Sinner Singh,
You represent the sensible majority. That other forum you talk about represents the idiotic minority.
Lets get some facts straight:
1) We do not have Meat and Alcohol in the Gurudwara - Why? Because some Vaishnav orientated people would object to meat. Infact meat was served in Langaar up until the 2nd Guru. In some Gurudwaras in India meat is still served. Alcohol is not served because it would mean people may get intoxicated and would not understand what is being said.
2) This hall was a community centre owned by Sikhs, and was not a Gurudwara, therefore it does not matter whether meat or alcohol was served there.
3) Meat is NOT against the Sikh religion. An Amritdari may eat meat so long as it not Kuttha meat. That which is ritually sacrificed to God.
4) Although Alcohol as an intoxicant is banned for Amridhari's it can be used medicinally. Therefore if someone with a heart condition is told by his doctor to drink a glass of wine a day, I doubt that would be considered an issue.
5) These "Satkaar" people are Hankaari fools who think that they have a God given right to make everyone bow to how they think. they are nothing but Munmooks.
My email to satkaar@hotmail.co.uk (would promote everyone to do the same,we must advise them ,aswell as comment on their actions.
Dear Sir
I would like to be frank and honest with you ,as that is what I believe is the best way ,posting on forums is ok, but it seems not direct enough.
I was shocked when I read your agreement, was there any need to be so peremptory.I have heard many reports of you attacking old people and I have seen photos of the damage.
I cannot believe you even added a waiver for damaged caused and stopped future transfers. (This is not imposed in the Sandesh )
The person who read the statement ,did so like a solicitor, so he must know agreements should be freely entered into, otherwise they have no legal force or even moral force in my view.
You must not increase your mandate, you cannot arbitrarily enforce the Sandesh, you can only inform Sangats peacefully ,perhaps you could use Singhni in future ,as the Nawjwaan are hard to control and your message will be lost in the fights.
I quoted Robert E. Lee in my earlier email to invoke in you a love for those that you are opposing, even if you do not believe in their values.We are all brothers no point breaking eternal laws for the temporal laws.
We can unite if we all are accepting of eachothers views ,you know there are many cleanshaven people of a Sikh faith in the UK ,if they had organised themselves against you, many more people would have got hurt .
Many people I know in Dudley have asked "what should we do about these bullies?"I have calmed them by saying violence leads to more violence.Your leaders may have to account for the stitches applied to heads and damage as not everyone forgets and forgives.
You are organised ,but I feel still a minority and must not act like a police force which is given their mandate from the majority.
I also feel the Hampton Court stoppage was not against the Sandesh , it was not a Gurdwara and a compromise would have been that the alcohol was served in a Marquis.
Regards
Dear Sir
I would like to be frank and honest with you ,as that is what I believe is the best way ,posting on forums is ok, but it seems not direct enough.
I was shocked when I read your agreement, was there any need to be so peremptory.I have heard many reports of you attacking old people and I have seen photos of the damage.
I cannot believe you even added a waiver for damaged caused and stopped future transfers. (This is not imposed in the Sandesh )
The person who read the statement ,did so like a solicitor, so he must know agreements should be freely entered into, otherwise they have no legal force or even moral force in my view.
You must not increase your mandate, you cannot arbitrarily enforce the Sandesh, you can only inform Sangats peacefully ,perhaps you could use Singhni in future ,as the Nawjwaan are hard to control and your message will be lost in the fights.
I quoted Robert E. Lee in my earlier email to invoke in you a love for those that you are opposing, even if you do not believe in their values.We are all brothers no point breaking eternal laws for the temporal laws.
We can unite if we all are accepting of eachothers views ,you know there are many cleanshaven people of a Sikh faith in the UK ,if they had organised themselves against you, many more people would have got hurt .
Many people I know in Dudley have asked "what should we do about these bullies?"I have calmed them by saying violence leads to more violence.Your leaders may have to account for the stitches applied to heads and damage as not everyone forgets and forgives.
You are organised ,but I feel still a minority and must not act like a police force which is given their mandate from the majority.
I also feel the Hampton Court stoppage was not against the Sandesh , it was not a Gurdwara and a compromise would have been that the alcohol was served in a Marquis.
Regards
- Jan 31, 2011
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Sinnerji,
I feel for you, I really do, but I cannot help but feel that these are people are beyond any understanding of what you are trying to say. The fact that like me, you are a mona, means you have no authority in their eyes anyway.
These people are bullies, they have no idea that the actions that they are taking are taking them so far way from the creator, they think that one cut hair is a million times worse than defending their way, even if physical harm comes to the elderly.
How can you possibly reason with such people, however I admire you for trying
I feel for you, I really do, but I cannot help but feel that these are people are beyond any understanding of what you are trying to say. The fact that like me, you are a mona, means you have no authority in their eyes anyway.
These people are bullies, they have no idea that the actions that they are taking are taking them so far way from the creator, they think that one cut hair is a million times worse than defending their way, even if physical harm comes to the elderly.
How can you possibly reason with such people, however I admire you for trying
Thanks Harry,I realise it's a long shot, but I thought I would give them my feedback ,maybe it's not Satkaar but the Nawjawaan I should make realise that beating someone up is not the way to God. But I have no voice amongst them as I'm not the real article.
If I disappear ,you know why now !lolIts also close to my heart coming from Dudley
If I disappear ,you know why now !lolIts also close to my heart coming from Dudley
Dear and Respected Saadh Sangat Jio
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
I rarely post other than on reaction to my articles on SPN. I have done so on two or three occasions and each time got burnt my fingers and perhaps even alienated some – this I regretted very much. It is only too easy to be misunderstood on non-face to face discussions. However, this is one occasion I could no longer hold myself.
Here we see yet another manifestation of discord, lack of communication and increasing diversity in opinion and deed amongst ourselves. A lot of comments are made on TV, press and forums, many not well thought out nor giving a balanced view. These only add fire to an already inflamed and sensitive situation. This also gives an opportunity to some individuals to grind their own axes and promote their own brand of Sikhi. There is a great need for a balanced view on the issues facing us without any personal agenda – this is a general point not aimed at anyone personal on this forum or elsewhere.
The core issue here is the use (or misuse) of premises that are associated with a Guru Ghar (Gurudwara). The main contention being: “is it OK to preach abstinence under one roof and permit it under another - next door? Some view this as saying “you must abstain from intoxicants etc… etc… but if you insist you may do so in our building next door”.
I, personally, am not associated with any Gurudwara Committee or organisation and take a genuinely neutral stand. There is absolutely no excuse for violence, particularly amongst people of the same faith. However, in this instance I cannot help feeling that there is ‘fault’ (for want of a better word) on both sides caused by a sheer lack of communication or, perhaps, unwillingness to communicate. There also appears to be an element of provocation which led to the disorderly and shameful scenes we had to witness on the Sikh Channel, and the U tube.
My personal observation is that we as a nation fail to see each other’s problems and points of view and want to impose our values on others in an insensitive and ‘anti-gurmat’ manner. This again applies to all sides of the spectrum. There is great need for debate and discussion because of the increasing diversity in opinion, culture and values we experience in the modern times. Such discussions must be based on the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib with humility being a necessary undertone. No matter in which part of the world we are living our conduct has an impact on the lives of others - Sikhs and non-Sikhs. It is therefore imperative that we act with absolute caution and total responsibility.
An additional factor to consider is that there are racist elements within the UK police and such events give them an opportunity to vent out their own prejudices against the minorities (it was mentioned on the Sikh Channel that one senior person had his beard pulled by a policeman without any provocation). We are our own worst enemies and walk into the hands of others who are only to happy to oblige.
It has emerged quite clearly that the majority of the protestors were peaceful. The actions of the minority cannot be justified even under the provocation that is claimed by some. Before embarking on the mission some taunting and verbal provocation must have expected and the campaigners should have been prepared to handle this – and this where they have failed themselves. It is in our interests to learn how to handle provocation and any physical reaction must only be in self-defence.
On 28 March 2011, I attended the Celebration of Vaisakhi at Westminster (Parliament Buildings, House of Commons, London). The event was attended by many MPs, ministers, Lords and the Leader of the opposition Ed Miliband and covered by the Sikh TV channels. This was taken as an opportunity to raise the question of turban at airports. Speaker after speaker spoke in support our rights to wear the five kakaars in public and that the turban of Sikh is not an accessory but an integral and sacred part of our identity. Events such as Dudley weaken our case and had this taken an even uglier turn involving kirpans it would have jeopardised and thwarted all our efforts – perhaps this what some elements amongst us want – some people may want to portray this as a battle between the monas and amritdharis – which it is not. Sikhism must embrace all as did our Gurus and any persuasion to come back into the fold must be by peaceful means based Sikh Ethics (sidhant).
In the end let me stress very strongly that I am not taking sides and that somewhere along the line both sides are to blame – basically an unwillingness to communicate, to shed ego and stubbornness - the end result is in front of us. I pray that we will all be spared a repeat of this unfortunate and unnecessary episode in the future and that we can conduct ourselves in a way that is more mature and commensurate with the teachings of our illustrious Gurus.
Bhul chul di khima
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
I rarely post other than on reaction to my articles on SPN. I have done so on two or three occasions and each time got burnt my fingers and perhaps even alienated some – this I regretted very much. It is only too easy to be misunderstood on non-face to face discussions. However, this is one occasion I could no longer hold myself.
Here we see yet another manifestation of discord, lack of communication and increasing diversity in opinion and deed amongst ourselves. A lot of comments are made on TV, press and forums, many not well thought out nor giving a balanced view. These only add fire to an already inflamed and sensitive situation. This also gives an opportunity to some individuals to grind their own axes and promote their own brand of Sikhi. There is a great need for a balanced view on the issues facing us without any personal agenda – this is a general point not aimed at anyone personal on this forum or elsewhere.
The core issue here is the use (or misuse) of premises that are associated with a Guru Ghar (Gurudwara). The main contention being: “is it OK to preach abstinence under one roof and permit it under another - next door? Some view this as saying “you must abstain from intoxicants etc… etc… but if you insist you may do so in our building next door”.
I, personally, am not associated with any Gurudwara Committee or organisation and take a genuinely neutral stand. There is absolutely no excuse for violence, particularly amongst people of the same faith. However, in this instance I cannot help feeling that there is ‘fault’ (for want of a better word) on both sides caused by a sheer lack of communication or, perhaps, unwillingness to communicate. There also appears to be an element of provocation which led to the disorderly and shameful scenes we had to witness on the Sikh Channel, and the U tube.
My personal observation is that we as a nation fail to see each other’s problems and points of view and want to impose our values on others in an insensitive and ‘anti-gurmat’ manner. This again applies to all sides of the spectrum. There is great need for debate and discussion because of the increasing diversity in opinion, culture and values we experience in the modern times. Such discussions must be based on the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib with humility being a necessary undertone. No matter in which part of the world we are living our conduct has an impact on the lives of others - Sikhs and non-Sikhs. It is therefore imperative that we act with absolute caution and total responsibility.
An additional factor to consider is that there are racist elements within the UK police and such events give them an opportunity to vent out their own prejudices against the minorities (it was mentioned on the Sikh Channel that one senior person had his beard pulled by a policeman without any provocation). We are our own worst enemies and walk into the hands of others who are only to happy to oblige.
It has emerged quite clearly that the majority of the protestors were peaceful. The actions of the minority cannot be justified even under the provocation that is claimed by some. Before embarking on the mission some taunting and verbal provocation must have expected and the campaigners should have been prepared to handle this – and this where they have failed themselves. It is in our interests to learn how to handle provocation and any physical reaction must only be in self-defence.
On 28 March 2011, I attended the Celebration of Vaisakhi at Westminster (Parliament Buildings, House of Commons, London). The event was attended by many MPs, ministers, Lords and the Leader of the opposition Ed Miliband and covered by the Sikh TV channels. This was taken as an opportunity to raise the question of turban at airports. Speaker after speaker spoke in support our rights to wear the five kakaars in public and that the turban of Sikh is not an accessory but an integral and sacred part of our identity. Events such as Dudley weaken our case and had this taken an even uglier turn involving kirpans it would have jeopardised and thwarted all our efforts – perhaps this what some elements amongst us want – some people may want to portray this as a battle between the monas and amritdharis – which it is not. Sikhism must embrace all as did our Gurus and any persuasion to come back into the fold must be by peaceful means based Sikh Ethics (sidhant).
In the end let me stress very strongly that I am not taking sides and that somewhere along the line both sides are to blame – basically an unwillingness to communicate, to shed ego and stubbornness - the end result is in front of us. I pray that we will all be spared a repeat of this unfortunate and unnecessary episode in the future and that we can conduct ourselves in a way that is more mature and commensurate with the teachings of our illustrious Gurus.
Bhul chul di khima
Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
Quote "The main contention being: “is it OK to preach abstinence under one roof and permit it under another - next door?"
Alot of good points there Arshi Ji really balanced appraisal,
Notwithstanding the fact, if they don't rent the Hall out, someone else will rent theirs out ,why not put the funds raised on one Saturday, towards youth projects that may last a couple of months.
In any case a party means there will be in attendance ,some vegatarians, some drinkers,some Ttotalers, some meat eaters,
I don't know no any group of extended family which is entirely made up of abstainers or alcoholics!
Alot of good points there Arshi Ji really balanced appraisal,
Notwithstanding the fact, if they don't rent the Hall out, someone else will rent theirs out ,why not put the funds raised on one Saturday, towards youth projects that may last a couple of months.
In any case a party means there will be in attendance ,some vegatarians, some drinkers,some Ttotalers, some meat eaters,
I don't know no any group of extended family which is entirely made up of abstainers or alcoholics!
- Jan 31, 2011
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Arshiji,
I cannot agree with your posting, although I have now read it 4 times, and still cannot find any incriminating piece that I find disagreeable.
It is a very good, non judgemental observation of the event, and although you seem to give validation to the people that carried this out, You do so in an effort to unite us as sikhs, not divide us.
In fact the more times I read it, the more reasonable it seems, however, I intend to stick to my side of the fence, which is although you may explain these peoples actions, people should be free to carry out whatever worship they want to without fear of violence and thuggery. I do not think anyone is against the sentiment, it is not a matter of which building or where it was, the bottom line is that as human beings, we deserve the right to worship in whatever strange or abnormal fashion without fear, ESPECIALLY IN SIKHISM, doing otherwise makes us no better than the people that stuck turbaned heads on spears, ie , if you do not agree with me, then I will hurt you.
If certain parties feel that certain establishments are letting down the SGGS in this way, there should be debate, complaint, and a figure of authority needs to make judgement
This is the central issue, no one has any problem with statements being drawn up and policy being rewritten, but not like this, this is just shameful , and puts sikhs in the same camp as all the other awful screaming shouting people you see on TV.
I cannot agree with your posting, although I have now read it 4 times, and still cannot find any incriminating piece that I find disagreeable.
It is a very good, non judgemental observation of the event, and although you seem to give validation to the people that carried this out, You do so in an effort to unite us as sikhs, not divide us.
In fact the more times I read it, the more reasonable it seems, however, I intend to stick to my side of the fence, which is although you may explain these peoples actions, people should be free to carry out whatever worship they want to without fear of violence and thuggery. I do not think anyone is against the sentiment, it is not a matter of which building or where it was, the bottom line is that as human beings, we deserve the right to worship in whatever strange or abnormal fashion without fear, ESPECIALLY IN SIKHISM, doing otherwise makes us no better than the people that stuck turbaned heads on spears, ie , if you do not agree with me, then I will hurt you.
If certain parties feel that certain establishments are letting down the SGGS in this way, there should be debate, complaint, and a figure of authority needs to make judgement
This is the central issue, no one has any problem with statements being drawn up and policy being rewritten, but not like this, this is just shameful , and puts sikhs in the same camp as all the other awful screaming shouting people you see on TV.
Harry
You may have a point with the wider question being one of freedom and the imposition of certain values and adherence to manmade conventions.But as this was addressed to Arshi I will leave it there.
You may have a point with the wider question being one of freedom and the imposition of certain values and adherence to manmade conventions.But as this was addressed to Arshi I will leave it there.
Dear Randip
Quote" This hall was a community centre owned by Sikhs, and was not a Gurdwara, therefore it does not matter whether meat or alcohol was served there."
That was exactly my initial gut feeling,seems really simple yet there has been so much turmoil I just heard about how they punched people in the face from my 17 year old cousin who was there.I'm so glad that he had the sense not to get into the violence.
Why are young Sikh's so easily led into these campaigns?
Quote" This hall was a community centre owned by Sikhs, and was not a Gurdwara, therefore it does not matter whether meat or alcohol was served there."
That was exactly my initial gut feeling,seems really simple yet there has been so much turmoil I just heard about how they punched people in the face from my 17 year old cousin who was there.I'm so glad that he had the sense not to get into the violence.
Why are young Sikh's so easily led into these campaigns?
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