Polygamy And Sikhism

[spnadmin]

Bhagat Singh ji

Thank you for your input. The thread is somewhat older, and you have resurrected the discussion. Therefore, I am sorry if the 6 directions you have identified and that other members took from 2004 through 2009 is not to your liking. However, the thread seems fine to me. Often individual posters will see a need to elaborate on an issue that is related to/supports ideas embedded in the thread topic. That is not the same as a digression. You are free to start new threads on issues 2 through 6 if you perceive a need to focus on any one of them in more depth.

 

[hernandres]

1. No evidence has been presented that I have read through out this entire thread that says Polygamy is against the Guru's teachings. 2. Every Polygamist relationship you have all talked about is in a negative view. Why has no one brought the argument that the women are OK with it and joined the marriage willingly. 3. Quotes presented are misinterpreted and stretched far beyond what they were meant to cover the daily Banis say things like "you can pray and do good works but without GOD none of that matters" So does that mean praying and good works are a bad thing? because that is the same argument you used to say that Polygamy was against the Guru's teachings. Your examples were "you can enjoy the company/beauty of many women but you will not know GOD" or something of those likes. 4. When a man marries more than 1 women he can have more than 1 child at a time. When a Women marries more than one man she can still only have 1 child at a time, if she married 10 men at most she would probably have 10-15 children and spend her entire life having children. A man would be able to have children upon children upon children with several wives. This a common argument used towards why women can't have more than 1 husband their really isn't any benefits nor good reasons too. 5. Lastly I have failed to read any argument that isn't Subjective nor any quote from scripture that can honestly imply that polygamy is wrong.

 

[Kamala]

I don't get what the big deal is.. if the wives are ok with it I guess it's fine..

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Wow Kamala ji, your don't care attitude is pretty insightful. Many women think it is OK to be hit by their husbands once in a while. What are your views on that?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Some get regularly BASHED good and proper..even entering hospitals for a week or so..still OK...because they LOVE their Husbands...icecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudiicecreamkudi

 

[findingmyway]

1. No evidence has been presented that I have read through out this entire thread that says Polygamy is against the Guru's teachings. 2. Every Polygamist relationship you have all talked about is in a negative view. Why has no one brought the argument that the women are OK with it and joined the marriage willingly. 3. Quotes presented are misinterpreted and stretched far beyond what they were meant to cover the daily Banis say things like "you can pray and do good works but without GOD none of that matters" So does that mean praying and good works are a bad thing? because that is the same argument you used to say that Polygamy was against the Guru's teachings. Your examples were "you can enjoy the company/beauty of many women but you will not know GOD" or something of those likes. 4. When a man marries more than 1 women he can have more than 1 child at a time. When a Women marries more than one man she can still only have 1 child at a time, if she married 10 men at most she would probably have 10-15 children and spend her entire life having children. A man would be able to have children upon children upon children with several wives. This a common argument used towards why women can't have more than 1 husband their really isn't any benefits nor good reasons too. 5. Lastly I have failed to read any argument that isn't Subjective nor any quote from scripture that can honestly imply that polygamy is wrong.

Relationships are emotion so disregarding emotional arguments is not possible in this particular issue.
Ang 788

ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Third Mehl:


ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ Dhhan Pir Eaehi N Aakheean Behan Eikathae Hoe ||
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.



ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ Eaek Joth Dhue Moorathee Dhhan Pir Keheeai Soe ||3||
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3||


Could not be clearer!!!

 

[Archived_member15]

Relationships are emotion so disregarding emotional arguments is not possible in this particular issue.
Ang 788

ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Third Mehl:


ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ Dhhan Pir Eaehi N Aakheean Behan Eikathae Hoe ||
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.



ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ Eaek Joth Dhue Moorathee Dhhan Pir Keheeai Soe ||3||
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3||


Could not be clearer!!!

A beautiful description of a loving, monogamous, spiritual relationship mundahug

 

[Ishna]

Pity the SRM doesn't reflect the Gurbani.

 

[Kamala]

I don't understand where abuse came from, you mustve taken my point from a wrong perception.. But I think abuse is wrong.. not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse) some are really nice.

 

[findingmyway]

I don't understand where abuse came from, you mustve taken my point from a wrong perception.. But I think abuse is wrong.. not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse) some are really nice.

However, the Sikh Guru's didn't have multiple wives so your comparison doesn't work I'm afraid. If they did, the above quote from Gurbani would never have been written. Men with multiple wives may not physically abuse their wives but making a woman share a man is a form of emotional abuse (and vice versa if it were to happen the other way round).

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse)

Kamala ji has anyone in your family been in polygamy? If there is no instance in your house, why do you think there would be one in Guru Ghar?

 

[Harry Haller]

I don't understand where abuse came from, you mustve taken my point from a wrong perception.. But I think abuse is wrong.. not all people who have multiple wives abuse them (Like the Sikh Gurus who did not abuse) some are really nice.

Kamalji

No Guru would cheapen the institution of marriage by doing this, however, We must always be aware of the popularity of such opinion. My opinion was much the same as yours until I was corrected by Jasleen Bhenji.

For such an enlightened religion, we sure suck at educating our sangat

 

[imperativeduty]

If a Muslim family in a polygamous marriage decide to convert to Sikhism what must they do? Does the husband have to choose 1 wife? or does he keep them all?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

If a Muslim family in a polygamous marriage decide to convert to Sikhism what must they do? Does the husband have to choose 1 wife? or does he keep them all?

a circumcised "sikh" with four wives...?? Have to ask the wives too..do they want to change..? and if so WHY ?? Sikhism and Gurmatt DOESNT ENCOURAGE CONVERSION for conversion sake...a Muslim can be a GOOD Mulsim..as several Muslims in Sikh History have remained Muslim...Sheikh farid Bhagat kabir etc are good examples..

 

[aristotle]

@imperative duty,
Conversion to another religion should always be a matter of faith.
If a person has 'four' wives, and he wants to convert to Sikhism, he should not force the same upon his wives. And as for keeping his wives, if he 'chooses' a wife and forsakes the other three, it would be grave injustice to them. But using this instance to justify one's polygamy would be wrong. The instance you quoted is a theoretic possibility, and should be dealt as it is.
Anyways, anyone who wants to join Sikhism and attain salvation can only be welcomed, no strings attached..

 

[aristotle]

Relationships are emotion so disregarding emotional arguments is not possible in this particular issue.
Ang 788

ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Third Mehl:


ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ Dhhan Pir Eaehi N Aakheean Behan Eikathae Hoe ||
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.



ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ Eaek Joth Dhue Moorathee Dhhan Pir Keheeai Soe ||3||
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3||


Could not be clearer!!!

Beautiful mentions,
I don't think much is left to be explained. The same Gurus who wrote these verses can't be accused of polygamy. Our medieval 'historical' sources have been vastly corrupted as has been discussed many times on SPN too.
Obviously those sources which mention Gurus to have multiple wives are far from reality and should be aptly corrected to reflect our true history. Sikhism clearly advocates Monogamy.
:sippingcoffeemunda:

 

[imperativeduty]

OK if the wives also agree to convert because they feel the Gurus spoke the truth? This is more of a hypothetical question as I would like to know what the Theory behind Polygamy would be from a Converting family and if Sikhism accepts the Marriage then how can Sikhism hold to be Against Polygamy? Would it rather be that Sikhism encourages Monogamy and Discourages Polygamy? vs. the stance many have taken that it completely denounces Polygamy?... This is an honest question I know in some religions like Catholicism Greek orthodox priests can marry and then if they convert to roman Catholicism they are still allowed to keep their wife. Would it be similar circumstances?

 

[aristotle]

@Imperativeduty,
It is simple, Sikhism discourages polygamy. But there is no rule for 'denouncing' someone if he/she practises polygamy/polyandry. Remaining faithful to one's partner finds ample mentions in the Gurbani. Sikhism does not think of 'Man as the provider' and 'Women are dependent' on men.
There is a legal aspect too. Like, In India, Only Muslims can practise polygamy, otherwise it is prohibited by law.
As in your instance, if the other wives find Sikhism as their path of salvation and want to convert to Sikhism, there can be no stopping them.

 

[Archived_member15]

And as for keeping his wives, if he 'chooses' a wife and forsakes the other three, it would be grave injustice to them. But using this instance to justify one's polygamy would be wrong.

I wonder is there anything in legal terms within Sikhi which actually stipulates what would be the procedire if a polygamous man were too convert? :sippingcoffeemunda:

In my religion there is a very clear answer: The man/woman must dismiss the other women/men as his wives/husbands and remain faithful to the first wife/husband or, if he/she finds this difficult then he can be granted a dispensation to be allowed to be married to one of the other wives.

In Canon Law it says:


Can. 1148 §1. When he receives baptism in the Catholic Church, a non-baptized man who has several non-baptized wives at the same time can retain one of them after the others have been dismissed, if it is hard for him to remain with the first one. The same is valid for a non-baptized woman who has several non-baptized husbands at the same time.

§2. In the cases mentioned in §1, marriage must be contracted in legitimate form after baptism has been received...
§3. Keeping in mind the moral, social, and economic conditions of places and of persons, the local ordinary is to take care that the needs of the first wife and the others dismissed are sufficiently provided for according to the norms of justice, Christian charity, and natural equity.


The Church naturally has sympathy for a person in such a predicament - even though she does not deviate from her opposition to polygamy - as the Catechism demonstrates:


1645 "The unity of marriage, distinctly recognized by our Lord, is made clear in the equal personal dignity which must be accorded to man and wife in mutual and unreserved affection."<SUP>155</SUP> Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive.

2387 The predicament of a man who, desiring to convert to the Gospel, is obliged to repudiate one or more wives with whom he has shared years of conjugal life, is understandable. However polygamy is not in accord with the moral law." [Conjugal] communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive."<SUP>180</SUP> The Christian who has previously lived in polygamy has a grave duty in justice to honor the obligations contracted in regard to his former wives and his children.


So the man still has to honour the obligations relating to his former wives even though he is no longer married to them (because he can only be married to one woman).

 

[Ishna]

If Sikhs aren't into polygamy, why was Maharaja Ranjit Singh a polygamist?