Post From A Different Forum On Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

[Kamala]

I came eupon a post from a different forum and want to know what you guys think.. by no means am I trying to get the origonal poster in trouble and if you have a small mind please do not read the following:

Warning: The Tat Khalsa Sikhs may want to skip reading this post.

It was a personal quest to learn about the Hindu-Sikh acrimony which led me to gather the following information. It is by no means meant to hurt or disrespect anyone, and the Tat Khalsa Sikhs should heed the above warning. Also, the interested readers may access more information at the two links provided below, and from additional material available on the internet, to draw their own conclusions.

The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum. When Punjab fell under the British rule, hordes of missionaries moved in to harvest the lost souls in the name of Jesus. A Sikh religious administrative body, Sanatan Sikh Sabha was established in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar to counter the rising influence of, and conversion to Christianity.

The British Raj ruled by creating divisions through tactics which included altering and editing scriptures to divide and conquer and keep the populace subjugated, ignorant and subservient. All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed. It is alleged that Max Arthur McAuliffe, the British Deputy Commissioner of Punjab, saw an opportunity with the establishment of Sanatan Sikh Sabha and engineered the formation of a second Sabha, Tat Khalsa (the 'True Khalsa') Singh Sabha in Lahore in 1879, as a political rival to the Sanatan Sikh Sabha. Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity; the Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity, separate from the non-Sikh Punjabis. So, the motive for the formation of this Tat Sabha were primarily to push Sikhs over to a pro-Muslim stance, put a wedge between the Sikhs and non-Sikh Punjabis thereby weakening the Hindus, and also to propagate the belief among the Sikh soldiers serving the Raj that their Guru’s prophecies coincided with the interests of the British Raj. It was a deliberate act in their “divide and rule” tactics and to get the Tat Khalsa Sikhs to be loyal to the British Raj.

Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed. To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued. In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

Over the last few decades, the newer generations of Sikhs have been indoctrinated into the Tat Khalsa mold. They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity. They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature. This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today, subscribe to the Tat Khalsa Sabha. Other sects are frowned upon and dealt with harshly, sometimes with the elimination of their leaders. Although, the seat of spiritual authority emanates from the Golden Temple; in North America, there is always a tussle between the conformist and reformist minded Tat Khalsas, which is at times settled violently. Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.

A murti or a book is an inanimate object. It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine. The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable. For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.

Sanatan Sikhi link:
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/introduction.html

Tat Khasla Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Khalsa

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum.

That leads to a question, what do we need Hindu deities for when we have Guru Granth Sahib?

All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed.

You mean the Hindu Nationalist Movement? We know how popular Sikhs like Bhagat Singh were!

Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity;

Sikhi believes in unity of humanity not philosophy. But we wish to keep our precious philosophy as Pure and True as possible.

Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity

That was kick started by Guru Nanak and brought to life by Guru Gobind Singh.

Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed.

Schools need to change the hired teachers when the kids are not scoring well.

To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued.

I think as people mature, they need simpler homes!

In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

That was probably to make more room for the sangat as the main hall of Darbar Sahib is not so big!

They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity.

It is not must, Sikhs have a separate identity, something you will never understand, you are like standing on India Pakistan border, and you don't wana move from there.

They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature

Guru Granth Sahib has the penship and blessings of Ten Human Gurus.

This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today

And the article throwing this up means they have a big problem that Sikhs continue to think of themselves as NOT Hindu. It is as if we want this last 2% of the Indian population to be Hindu too. First get the 20% muslims into the fold!

Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.

Sikhism has no sects. And many of these don't consider them to be Sikh sects at all. Why do you want to glue the two together? Do you have too much free time?

It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine.

A devotee with all the respect, reverence and faith cannot make own mind divine. Making a stone idol divine is very hard to come by.

The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable.

Sikhs have devotion towards Guru Granth Sahib only. Hindus are there to pray to Ram and Krishan. Neither of the followers make them worship able.

For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.

The laptop with which I am writing all this has the same divine force as the murti or anything. What all should I pray to? Guru Granth Sahib has not only the divine force, but Knowledge, which comes only to a chosen few. It seems Kamala ji that you and I are not to be blessed with such insight, for we are trying to help each other out here.

But after reading this post, if you still continue to sell the advantages of being a Hindu-Sikh, I can only say you must be very good at sales.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

KAMLA Ji,
You should realise the teachings of SGGS ji and then you can decide the scope of any such deities along with SGGS .
In fact NANAKs teachings are all related to tell what these dieties actually meant and what is the REAL MURATi one should worship.Try to know this MURATi which NANAK is mentioning in SGGS ji.
Once yu become familiar with this MURATi as envisaged in SGGS all your confusions go away.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Luckysingh]

Some may agree, many will disagree. But none of us should be ignorant and ignore.

The sanaatanists seem to be very concerned in giving sikhism a repackaged identity with hindu fundamentals. This is the impression I get.

For the upcoming youth of today, they need to be made aware about the pure undiluted sikhism before they experience other messages.

This movement seems to be on the rise as they have even influenced some so called Nihangs (fake nihangs). These fake nihangs are also promoting sanaatanism by giving acknowledgement to bhang, alcohol, meat and idol worship.
Getting the young youth in this manner can be easier as drinking, clubbing, partying, extra-marital relationships and drug use can be glamourised and justified.
The young youth can easily tag along convincing themselves that it's just a line of sikhism and not quite a classic sect.

We all need to forward our views, my opinion may be wrong and extreme.
But, I feel that their movement too, appears extreme. Correct me and I apologise if any offence is caused.

I firmly believe that Sikhi belongs to the Guru and the Guru only, not hindus,muslims, other faiths, goups or individuals.

I also firmly believe that none of us have the right to decide or dictate what Sikhi is, only the Guru decides what is sikhi. Following the Guru Granth Sahib Ji it can be attained.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Some may agree, many will disagree. But none of us should be ignorant and ignore.

The sanaatanists seem to be very concerned in giving sikhism a repackaged identity with hindu fundamentals. This is the impression I get.

For the upcoming youth of today, they need to be made aware about the pure undiluted sikhism before they experience other messages.

This movement seems to be on the rise as they have even influenced some so called Nihangs (fake nihangs). These fake nihangs are also promoting sanaatanism by giving acknowledgement to bhang, alcohol, meat and idol worship.
Getting the young youth in this manner can be easier as drinking, clubbing, partying, extra-marital relationships and drug use can be glamourised and justified.
The young youth can easily tag along convincing themselves that it's just a line of sikhism and not quite a classic sect.

We all need to forward our views, my opinion may be wrong and extreme.
But, I feel that their movement too, appears extreme. Correct me and I apologise if any offence is caused.

I firmly believe that Sikhi belongs to the Guru and the Guru only, not hindus,muslims, other faiths, goups or individuals.

I also firmly believe that none of us have the right to decide or dictate what Sikhi is, only the Guru decides what is sikhi. Following the Guru Granth Sahib Ji it can be attained.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

So wshould listen to GuRu about Sikhi from SGGS.
GuRu ji is saying about Sikhi as
"Sikhi Sikhiya GuR Sabadu Vichari"
Nothing more nothing less than this .
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Kamala]

But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.

 

[Parma]

No, sikhism is its own identity to believe in absolute truth, to be pure of the mind, the body and the soul. Nothing else. A firm word to all practicing sikhs that I learnt from Sant singh Maskeen ji. What a great thinker. You are not here to tell them the Katha you are here to just do the katha. Sing it with love how many people stop what they are doing and listen to love songs on the T.V. It captures you its self you cant make people listen to you, you cant make someone love you so why should god. If people want to listen the truth gets into there mind its self, that is not for you to tell them, how do you know that persons way, every persons way, "journey's" are all different some born in poverty others with a silver spoon. If they ask what a word means explain the word. The journey is between god and the individual. God will teach you your own way to him... Waheguru. Just like the love songs of today, sing the glorious words of the gurbani with love.japposatnamwaheguru:
Pure of the mind body and soul. Absolute truth even if that means people call me names whatever, no one is born perfect. We are sikh and as such life is a learning curb, who gives a toss what people call you just be truthful no matter what. A kid steals mother asks him did you steal he says yes, gets a smack and when he does wrong again she asks did you do it he says yes and gets a smack. He doesn't learn not to tell the truth! He just learns not to do it again, that is how open to truth you should be stand up for your convictions no matter what. God made you a sikh, you will hopefully with time, in your own time, through the grace of waheguru in your own way learn. Atleast you then dont hide from the truth you then are apart of the truth

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.

There is no concept of being any Sanatan Sikh .Sanatan word has never been used anywhere in any referennce in Gurbanee.So refering a Sikh as Sanatan is your assumption.
GuRu ji wishes everyone to be GuRMukh only .This you can veryfy from SGGS.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Not scholarly verified but it appears merger has not been accepted by Kamala ji for the two factions of Sikhs that seeing the damage from Arya Samajis merged way back in 1890s (122 years ago or at least 5 to 6 generations of SIkhs),

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The original founders of the Singh Sabha Movement were sanatan or ‘Traditional’ Sikhs believing that the paanth certainly consisted of the followers of the Gurus, but had no problem with the Hindu traditions that were creeping in. There were the Sabha of Amritsar of 1873.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The radical Sikhs were the Tat Khalsa centred at Lahore. For the Tat Khalsa it was impossible to be a Hindu and A Sikh, as those of the Sanatan persuasion maintained. The only correct style for a Sikh was that of a Khalsa and although they did not cast out the non-Khalsa variety, they explicitly adopted the view that those non-Khalsa Sikhs were on there way to becoming fully fledged Sikh. In other words they were said to be aspiring to become members of the Khalsa, that is they were Sehaj-dhari ‘s or slow learners.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ultimately the victory went to the Tat Khalsa and since the early years of the twentieth century Sikhs have been progressively learning three things. First, Sikhs are no Hindus, secondly Khalsa membership should be the objective of all Sikhs and thirdly, the Khalsa membership requires obedience to the Rehat. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Founders of the Sanatan movement were predominantly conservative Sikhs, concerned to sustain and protect the society in which they had been nurtured, this was a society which permitted a variety of Sikh identities and different modes of worship. The Tat Khalsa strongly disagreed with the actions of the Amritsar Singh Sabha. Those with radical opinion drew strength from the educational developments in Lahore. For the Tat Khalsa Sikhism could not possibly be as broad as Sanatan Sikhs believed. Emphatically Sikhs were not Hindus, and Hindu tradition was not what Sikhs should follow.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]This dispute simply helped the Arya Samajists, with their leader venting out anti-sikh rhetoric. The threat was real and realising this the two groups merged. Through the Khalsa Diwan it was desired to set up a Sikh college. Cleverly the Singh Sabha aligned themselves with the British in order to gain funds for their educational programme. Some British well wishers even raised money through committees in England. In 1892 enough money was raised to lay the foundation stone of the Khalsa College. The collage made the teaching of Gurmukhi and Sikh scripture compulsory. The college was founded with the notion to challenge the ‘anti-Sikh’ wave that Punjab was harbouring. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Pretty decent article:[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]http://www.info-sikh.com/SabhaPage2.html[/FONT]

Hindu/Sikh adherence disappeared from Sikhs in 1890s. Any comments or are we trying to restart old fights!

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Parma]

So the question forms on identity... When Guru Gobind Singh ji stood in his congregation to initiate the khalsa, what did he ask them.. At the time sikhs were being persecuted quite badly people begining to lose faith.. So he questions the congregation.. Who believes in the truth?.... Many people raise their hands... Who believes I am speaking the truth?... Many people raise their hands again but not so much as the first time, as there is doubt due to all the persecution from the kings at the time... Who is willing to die for the truth... Many people raise there hands again but still the numbers are fewer than the previous... Now he ask's who is willing to give their head to me in the name of truth.... Only one raises the hand out of the congregation. They are then summoned and the rest is history on the initiation of khalsa. He did not ask the congregation do you like this dress code, do you like this club association. The 5 beloved were from the congregation at the time representing humanity as it was back then raw, which were all types not what the definition has been made now. They were made to stand up for and protect absolute truth for humanity not just a Singh 5k's definition of today's sikhism. It was made for the entire humanity. The definition of khalsa is the one who stands up for the truth absolute, whether you do that wearing a 3 piece suite, or full tradition attire the outcome is the same. The khalsa is not definied by a dress code. It is definied by the truth, whether that is a keshdari sikh, nirankari sikh or whatever sikh. It is a basis for humanity the way it is. We are to be defined by God and the truth nothing else

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

So the question forms on identity... When Guru Gobind Singh ji stood in his congregation to initiate the khalsa, what did he ask them.. At the time sikhs were being persecuted quite badly people begining to lose faith.. So he questions the congregation.. Who believes in the truth?.... Many people raise their hands... Who believes I am speaking the truth?... Many people raise their hands again but not so much as the first time, as there is doubt due to all the persecution from the kings at the time... Who is willing to die for the truth... Many people raise there hands again but still the numbers are fewer than the previous... Now he ask's who is willing to give their head to me in the name of truth.... Only one raises the hand out of the congregation. They are then summoned and the rest is history on the initiation of khalsa. He did not ask the congregation do you like this dress code, do you like this club association. The 5 beloved were from the congregation at the time representing humanity as it was back then raw, which were all types not what the definition has been made now. They were made to stand up for and protect absolute truth for humanity not just a Singh 5k's definition of today's sikhism. It was made for the entire humanity. The definition of khalsa is the one who stands up for the truth absolute, whether you do that wearing a 3 piece suite, or full tradition attire the outcome is the same. The khalsa is not definied by a dress code. It is definied by the truth, whether that is a keshdari sikh, nirankari sikh or whatever sikh. It is a basis for humanity the way it is. We are to be defined by God and the truth nothing else

The Khalsa is not defined by the dress code. Agreed.
But Khalsa is certainly recgnised by 5 Ks.This forms the real Identity of Khalsa belonging to GuRu Gobind Singh Ji.
In fact there should have been either Khalsa Sikhs as SINGH or Sikhs only.
Refering Sikh as Keshdhari/Nirankari or other is a deviation from being Sikh.
These deviations do nothing good for the overall concept of Sikh.These deviations are only diluting the Sikh philosophy .
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Parma]

All I know is I believe in the truth of the Guru Granth Sahib. The rest I can not say to be the truth. Too many issues with the 5 k's... Don't cut your hair but you can cut your nails. Could all be propaganda from Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Raj. Not to mention it is not mentioned in the eternal Guru the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also people in Guru Gobinds congregation at the time would not have been Singh's before they were baptized what were they? Bramhins maybe with bold heads how you gona tell one them to wear a kanga? Singh's were created after baptisim. Anyway if it helps you become more of a defined person in your self great but it should not be the, be all and end all of Sikhism. Remember the 5 k's theory came along time after Sikhism was born. Too many question, that remain unanswered?:noticemunda:
Pure of the mind body and soul I guess, How do you define a pure body? This argument is not meant to be won an argument for the individual between god and yourself!

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

All I know is I believe in the truth of the Guru Granth Sahib. The rest I can not say to be the truth. Too many issues with the 5 k's... Don't cut your hair but you can cut your nails. Could all be propaganda from Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Raj. Not to mention it is not mentioned in the eternal Guru the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also people in Guru Gobinds congregation at the time would not have been Singh's before they were baptized what were they? Bramhins maybe with bold heads how you gona tell one them to wear a kanga? Singh's were created after baptisim. Anyway if it helps you become more of a defined person in your self great but it should not be the, be all and end all of Sikhism. Remember the 5 k's theory came along time after Sikhism was born. Too many question, that remain unanswered?:noticemunda:
Pure of the mind body and soul I guess, How do you define a pure body? This argument is not meant to be won an argument for the individual between god and yourself!

I fully appreciate your views.I too have similar views. But how many are there in line with this view you may know yourself.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The definition of khalsa is the one who stands up for the truth absolute, whether you do that wearing a 3 piece suite

Parma Ji I agree Khalsa has been absolved by Truth but even so it is very difficult to wear a 3 piece suite, as that would mean wearing a sofa and two chairs,maybe you meant wearing a 3 piece suit.

 

[BaljinderS]

What nonsense. Some people will never stop. I wonder, why? Are they not happy and peace with themselves?

If Sikhs don't wake up and learn about history, culture and what gurbani is telling us then we will carry on falling for this kind of trap and face humiliation.

Even if you have the slightest belief that this article has some truth in it then make it your mission to educate yourself, your family, your relatives and non Sikhs with the truth.

 

[Kamala]

The thing I wonder is, why would the murtis even be in HariMandir in the first place...

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

It is HarMandir not Hari Mandir of course you would be aware of that Kamala ji

 

[Parma]

Anyone that is looking for complete truth can not deny the truth... ha ha yeah 3 pc suit. Comment to baljinder people can never stop because the process is of truth. If I dont do it some one else will until the truth is out. Sikhism is defined that way human nature is defined that way. How would you like it if your mom had been telling you lies all your life, then you realise ha ha ha Only joking but you know what i am getting at, without truth there is no faith. Simple. Where is the historical fact evidence to counter act these questions?japposatnamwaheguru:

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

It is HarMandir not Hari Mandir of course you would be aware of that Kamala ji

Well,the correct word is HARi Mandir. There seems to be problem when we write any Gurmukhi wordin Roman we eliminate the matra of Sihari with the last letter of the word.This is for your obsevation pl.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Anyone that is looking for complete truth can not deny the truth... ha ha yeah 3 pc suit. Comment to baljinder people can never stop because the process is of truth. If I dont do it some one else will until the truth is out. Sikhism is defined that way human nature is defined that way. How would you like it if your mom had been telling you lies all your life, then you realise ha ha ha Only joking but you know what i am getting without truth there is no faith. Simple. Where is the historical fact evidence to counter act these questions?japposatnamwaheguru:

Can you pl write for information of every one What is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH in SGGS .?This information will clear so many questions we are involved in.
Prakash.S.Bagga