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Q&A With Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Jul 14, 2007
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Gurbani is spiritually alive, and therefore has multidimensional and multiple meanings while never in contradiction. It speaks to EVERY heart. I find the people who think they have the "one true way" usually are the most hard, and the most lost. The Truth is One. But the ways to reaching truth are multiple.

Why does Gurbani so many times say niragun saragun? Clearly because they are aspects of the One totality. One is not over the other. One is hidden, and one is perceived.
:happy:

The way I perceive it, sargun is nature of the three lower worlds - the realm of maya from which springs the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. They are not beyond the regions of time and space. That's why they keep on re-incarnating because they cannot get mukti. Anybody following them cannot cross the borders into the lights of Sat Lok.

Guru Nanak says,
Jay sao chanda ughvai,
Sooraj Charray Hajjar,
Eitay Channan Hundiya,
Gur Bin Ghor Andhar.

Only Guru (who is beyond the clutches of Maya,) can take souls out of the cycle of trans-migration. The realm of Brahma - mind region is so bright that its brilliancy exceeds a thousand suns and moons. But this brilliance is nothing (darkness) in comparison to Sach Khand. Without a guru, Brahma's region is mesmerizing enough to trap soul for eons, making one think that this is the final destination which we call home. Do you remember the story of the eagle raised in the chicken pen ?


Brahm in Sikhism should not be confused with the Hindu notion of Brahman, the Absolute or Highest Reality. Brahm here refers to the lord which has jurisdiction only over the phenomenal world. Moreover, the Guru's conception of the Transcendent God is not equivalent with Brahman. The five realms in Japji Sahib are comparable to the gnostic notion of a Transcendent God.

In The Gospel of the Egyptians reference to the five seals appears at leastsix times. The writer announces:
The five seals...the Father brought forth from his bosom, and she [the soul] passed [through] all the aeons ... They who are worthy of (the) invocation, the renounciations of the five seals ... these will know their receivers as they are instructed about them. and the will know them (or: be known) by them. These will be no means taste death.

The "mysteries of the Kingdom" (i.e., the names of the heavenly powers, etc.) are revealed, according to the Gnostics, by the Son, who has descended the inner realms and taken human form to explain these divine secrets. The adherents or initiates are named Sons of Light and alone are taught the path of light and sound and the "imperishable names." As one Gnostic puts it:
The Son who is perfect in every respect--that is, the Word who originated through that Voice...who was within him the Name; who is Light--he [the Son] revealed the everlasting things and all the unknowns were known. And those things difficult to interpret and secret, he revealed, and as for those who dwell in Silence...he preached to them. And he revealed himself to those who dwell in darkness, and he showed himself to those who dwell in the abyss, and to those who dwell in the hidden treasuries he told ineffable mysteries, and he taught unrepeatable doctrines to all those who became Sons of the Light.

The Apocryphon of John, the writer proclaims: He [God] is [illimitable] since there is no one [prior to him] to set limits to him. He is unsearchable [since there] exists no one prior to him to [examine him. He is] immeasurable since there [was] no one [prior to him to measure,] him. [He is invisible since no] one saw [him. He is eternal] since he [exists] eternally. He is [ineffable since] no one was able to comprehend him to speak [about him]. He is unnamable since [there is no one prior to him] to give [him] a name ... He is ineffable...He is neither large [nor] small. [Mere is no] way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What [is his quality?'], for no one can [know him].

Tulsi Das elucidates: From Sat Nam [the Highest Being] has emanated Brahm ... Not knowing the reality, people have thus described Brahm: The one without attributes, formless and infinite; Also, the dispenser of justice and free from delusion. These qualities the ignorant attribute to Brahm. And him the world worships with all devotion. The ten incarnations come from Brahm, the world looks Upon him as Nirgun.
He, in turn, has created the worlds physical and astral. Thus the world hails Brahm as the Supreme Lord. It recognizes not the path leading to the Ultimate.

For the Gnostics there are two versions of the salvation scheme: 1) the "elect" alone will be saved, and 2) all souls eventually will return to the "Realm of Light." There is yet another version to the Gnostic elect theme. Instead of asuperior class "saved by nature" versus those whose fate is doomed from the start, all souls will eventually be saved. Souls who possess knowledge (gnosis) can immediately return to God and those who do not will be sent "back again into the world according to the form of the sins that it may have committed,"

The doctrine of reincarnation is found throughout Gnostic literature. For instance, in The Apocryphon of John the Gnostic (in the voice of John) "plains that if souls at the time of death "have not known to whom they belong" these souls will be cast down into the prison house of creation, overpowered again with "forgetfulness...until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if it becomes perfect, it is saved."

http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/gnostic4.html
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh
Gurbani in Guru Granth Sahib ji = Guru = God. To recognize this does not in any way limit worship or understanding of God to sargun only. God is both nirgun and sargun. Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that worship of the sargun aspect of waheguru is wrong. Nirgun is the highest and that is what is emphasized. However, it is beyond some people's buddhi to understand nirgun and for them it is perfectly acceptable to start out with sargun.
Bro kindly refer to Charitro Pakhyan 266 of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Ji.

Also first Chapter of Vachitar Natak and First Part of Akal Ustat.Likewise when poet gives linage of holy people coming before him.

There should be no doubt that people worshipping saguna will get salvation as it is in the hand of Akal only and Akal only makes them worship Saguna.

But term Sargun is not Saguna.Sargun is dervied from Sarv Guna(plural) ie all qualities
so Nirguna ie no single qulity(as all qulties rest as Akal is in all).Sa(with) guna(one or more guna) applies for things taking birth or visible demigods.

Das hopes that Sants should read Shri Dasham Guru Darbar and Shri Sarbloh Guru Darbar. Das agrees that with only following Guru Granth Sahib Ji,there will be a scope to going after Saguna god or living Guru.What das writes,writes as per tredtion of Nihung Singhs.We tolrate saguna worshiping Nirmalas or Udasis.We respect them.We have Bhagat Dhanna in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

But in Charitropakhyan 266 we are told.How could be a stone trapped in vagina ie Shiva could eb God or how could one turned into stone by curse of female demon(tulsi) be God ie Vishnu.One Charitropakhyan is dedicated to lady fooling Brhama.

Then Gyan Prabodh has Laxmi,PArvati and Sarswati worshipping limitless.In Akal ustat we are told that there are many demigodess and half virgins(Adi Kuari).

In Krishna Avtar we have been told that I do not cajole Ganesha first.

Then at a place we are told(das forgets the part of Shri Dasham Guru Darbar) that sun is only the witness and fools worshp that.

In old Puranic faith we have 5 sects and five are told not for Khalsa.
Vaishnav(Vishnu worshippers),Shaiv(Shiva worshippers),Shakt(demigodess worshipper)Ganpatya(Ganesha worshiper) and Saura(sun worshiiper).

Ancestors of Sants like Tara Singh Nirotam did not agree that Shri Sarbloh Guru Darbar is work of Tenth Master(reason he gace was Roop deep Bhkha Pingle text being mentjoned in this which was made after 18 years of Gurus going to Sachkhand,but das says that if it was completed within 20 years so Guru could know about it).

Mahant Mula Singh was one who removed the Prakash of Shri Dasham Guru Darbar form Shri Akal Takhat Sahib,Right side of weapans await to go to origeon position.

Akal Bless.
 

sunsingh

SPNer
Jun 4, 2008
52
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vir ji, Baba Jagjit Singh ji is actually considered one of the most learned scholars in the panth, and has extensive knowledge of Dasam Bani and Sarbloh Bani. He does not promote sargun worship, but heavily promotes nirgun worship. He merely stated that worship by placing dhyain on sargun is allowed. In context of sikh dharm, people use techniques such as focusing on a portrait of the Guru, focusing on the star painted on his feet, these are concentration techniques only. Others, such as nanaksaris, worship (i have heard) by putting dhian on Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Since there is considerable confusion on this point, I recommend people re-listen to his answers to the questions. Questions regarding sargun are asked a few times over the course of the recordings.

Here is one of his answers to a question someone asked about sargun last year:

sargun dhyaan is just an way to stop your mind wandering around, and to make your mind subtle attuned to meditation. Ultimately, dhyaan should merge in nirgun. Sargun upasana/dhyaan is also one of the way to get mukhti. Sant ji said, first mind have to make sakar(akar) dhyaan then nirakar avastha comes, then one have to take dhyaan out from sakar(akar/form) and then attach it towards nirakar. It takes time, Why not in beginning to save time have the dhyaan towards niraakar via shabad?

Hope that clarifies things.
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh

Peace and surender brother from das's side.

In Sants das respect if they try to have Dhayana(meditation) by Sagun roop but there are ways to have Dhyan to formless also.

Date Daat Rakhi Hath Apnai Jis Bhve Tis Deye.Nanak Naam Rate Sukh Paya Dargreh Jape Seyee.

So both ways are from Akal.
 
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh

Can we deem Panth Khalsa as Saguba Saroop of Akal.Das finds proof of it in Sarbloh Guru Darbar.

Why not serve the universe in which Akal lives,is this not the worship of Akal?why not serve PAnth Khalsa is this not worship of Akal?
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Warning to participants. This topic can be discussed without judging the individuals making arguments on various sides of the issue. Closing threads is not an ideal solution when a topic is a rich with information and vichaar as this thread has been. In addition, each and every mention of the nirgun form of the Satguru does not have to entail a detailed examination of the role of Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, and other members of the Hindu pantheon. When this happens it derails the discussion. So let's stick to the thread topic. A second warning will be accompanied by measures that may include but are not limited to temporary closing of the thread, moving individual comments to a more relevant location, etc.

Some posts on this thread have been either deleted or moved.

Thank you
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
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In addition, each and every mention of the nirgun form of the Satguru does not have to entail a detailed examination of the role of Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, and other members of the Hindu pantheon.
As the sant was discussing these topics in his taped vichaar, it was highly relevant to the discussion, and remains as always, a point of absolute and utter intolerance among mainstream Sikhs. For example, every thread of my contribution has been moved with new warning issued, and the last post deleted. This is real intellectual cowardice, and most particularly glaring since I was not the one judging individuals and making personal insults as to character. Yet I am the one moved, accused of derailing, and deleted, as always.

FYI, thosands of times Gurbani discusses the devas. Therefore, they cannot be "Hindu," and must necessarily be an essential part of Gurmat teaching. Further, since Gurbani itself is highlighting the nature of sarguna, and this is the topic point under contention, your accusations of derailment are unsustained and simply false smokescreen to delete and punish an unwelcome viewpoint. How can SIKHS ever understand the nature of sarguna if we are not allowed to freely talk about it by analyzing the many varied interpretations of the Gurbani which discuss it? Do you have some delusion that Gurbani of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is better discussed on Hindu forums? Because what we are discussing is many tuuks and pauris of GURBANI.

So why be afraid of it? Why moderate, penalize, delete, insult, attack all the time? Why can't people just accept there are, and have been DIFFERENT traditions within Sikhi? Because that is the absolute truth.


So let's stick to the thread topic. A second warning will be accompanied by measures that may include but are not limited to temporary closing of the thread, moving individual comments to a more relevant location, etc.

Some posts on this thread have been either deleted or moved.
So when I am personally insulted on a thread, discussing relevant issues of controversy within the topic, I get deleted and warned, but not the person who makes the personal attacks.

You really need a mirror to analyze your extreme bias and fear of alternate viewpoints. Because that kind of censorship is really a bad reflection on the generosity and richness of Gurbani.


Or are you proposing a discussion about sanatan issues by a sant are somehow derailed by discussing the very topic issues mentioned by his vichaar? Are you proposing that discussion of the Gurbani itself is somehow anti-Sikh? Are you suggesting that it would be better to delete all references to the Gurbani which does not suit the Singh Sabha censorship and thus intend to remove the thousandsw of references to devas from Gurmat?

Some posts on this thread have been either deleted or moved.
Thank you yet again for silencing what you can't handle. Strange behavior for a chela of the Guru who wrote what you delete.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji

Thank you for your clarification. The topic of the thread is about conversations with Sant Jagit Singh ji Harkhowal.
 
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