itsmaneet
SPNer
So, what you think about the relation between - "Sikhism & Modernization" ? Any views of yours ?
India Rajasthan Panchayat Bars Girls From Carrying Cell Phones
- Jan 31, 2011
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Oh Boy do I have views on the modernisation of Sikhism, it has been a complete disaster.
When Sikhism was first introduced it was about actions, thoughts, purity, but more than anything, it was about truth, and truthful living. It was not about empty ritual, recitations, meditation, DG, inequality, discrimination based on sex, and all the other modern things that have crept in.
Guru Nanak elevated women to the same level as men, did away with sati, made women more than being a chattel for a man and his family, he brought sense and wisdom to the customs of the Punjab, he rid us of superstition, magic, he lauded common sense, he taught us not to care what people thought, log kya kehang gai was not important to a Sikh, the only thing was the relationship between self and Creator, and acting, talking and thinking in a way that was enlightened and wise.
As time has gone, more and more pointless ritual has crept in, more ceremony, lip service, we do more for our family name than our Singh name (speaking as a man), we have forgotten our Dasam Pita, we have forgotten common sense, we were taught to think, to be discerning, to have logic, instead we argue about Meat, physical appearance, how to keep people in place
Oh yes, I have views about modernisation, it sucks
itsmaneet
SPNer
Exactly modernization suck !!! And the days you referred above, mostly girls use to keep their head covered before their parents, elders & while going out ... doesn't sound good? It do for me ...
To change is good but the change for good should be adopted not just copied from other cultures ....
To change is good but the change for good should be adopted not just copied from other cultures ....
- Jan 31, 2011
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Guru Nanakji did away with many pointless rituals that were without foundation.
If a girl/woman wishes to cover her head that is her business
You are suggesting something different, it is your wish that they cover their head as a mark of respect to you/your family/etc etc, this is merely to satisfy your male ego and to ensure that the girl/woman knows her place
in all honesty, what has it got to do with you in any case? you are a man..........
If a girl/woman wishes to cover her head that is her business
You are suggesting something different, it is your wish that they cover their head as a mark of respect to you/your family/etc etc, this is merely to satisfy your male ego and to ensure that the girl/woman knows her place
in all honesty, what has it got to do with you in any case? you are a man..........
itsmaneet
SPNer
Yeh, you said it right what it has to do with me, being a man ..... same quest to you wht you have to do with it u too being a man .... right?
but the topic is posted for discussion & taking views of others so am discussing ... Also, i live in a society where both men & female exist so things are noticeable, i guess same is with you .... or it isn't?
Secondly, when we go to Gurudwaras or even when Hindus, Muslims etc go to their religious places , they make sure their head is covered ..... why so ? coz its the respect we show to our superiors / elders / Gurus ..... hope you agree on it. It's a culture being folllowed since ages .. But may be smbody smday will say whts to do with tht....its not needed this n tht .....
Covering head has always been encouraged not only by Guru Nanak Sahib Ji but even before him ..... must be a valid reason for tht....
but the topic is posted for discussion & taking views of others so am discussing ... Also, i live in a society where both men & female exist so things are noticeable, i guess same is with you .... or it isn't?
Secondly, when we go to Gurudwaras or even when Hindus, Muslims etc go to their religious places , they make sure their head is covered ..... why so ? coz its the respect we show to our superiors / elders / Gurus ..... hope you agree on it. It's a culture being folllowed since ages .. But may be smbody smday will say whts to do with tht....its not needed this n tht .....
Covering head has always been encouraged not only by Guru Nanak Sahib Ji but even before him ..... must be a valid reason for tht....
Guru Nanak asked people to stop doing rituals without meaning.
- Jan 31, 2011
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You are fighting for the right to impose your outdated views on another, I fight for freedom and personal choice, what difference does it make to you if a woman covers her head or not? It makes no difference to me if she does it out of free will, but if she does it because men like you will chastise her, or punish her, then it has everything to do with me, I am a Sikh, and I consider standing up for the right of women not to be bullied into submission much much more important than how long my hair is, or how big my Karra is, or how white my Kacha is, or how long I spend mumbling Bani to tick a few boxes. Sikhism is not box ticking, its an attitude to life, to people, to society, it is a respect for the truth, and living by the truth, and the truth is simple, do not impose your will on another.
I dont know about men and women, I see only people
No, I do not agree with it, I cover my head in presence of Guru Maharajji, my wife also does the same, to offer the same respect to anyone other than Guruji is personal choice, my wife has matha tekked my parents, and not just a bow, but a full matha tek, and in full public view, that is her choice, she did it out of love and respect, I have nothing against that at all, but no one should make her do it, which is what you are suggesting.
If someone wishes to show respect to an elder, brilliant, no problem, if someone wishes to do the same because it is tradition, and has always been done, then it is meaningless, it is just an action, a ritual, a pointless gesture,
I think Guruji had bigger fish to fry than encouraging pointless meaningless actions. To reiterate, bow, cover your head, do what you want, its a personal choice, but when it is enforced, it becomes a different matter, and I will fight for the right of anyone to have a choice in what they do. :swordfight-kudiyan:
itsmaneet
SPNer
Fighting at the cost of religion & culture ..... its smthg indigestible !
itsmaneet
SPNer
we are discussing here about covering the head .... is it a useless ritual? did Guru Nanak Sahib ever opposed it ?? Are you sure ??
itsmaneet
SPNer
OK .... from the discussion above, your point is all shud do what they feel & shud not be asked to do anythg ... right? Or in your words shudn't be forced to do anythg ... be it wrong or rights ... its the personal choice ...
My point of view is we have two lanes, one living our life as we want/as it comes & the other suggested by Guruji (includes covering head) ...... the former lane goes to hell & the other lane suggested by Guruji connects us to the Almighty.
When am discussing the topic, no where i said the decision be forced on others. But i said in my views the decision is correct. To put smone in the right path or to show the right path is good ....
People oppose covering head today, am sure many Gona-Mona will start opposing keeping hairs in Sikhism or infact they already started it .... and call themselves the bigger Sikhs..
So till what extent it's correct to play with religion / culture for one's personal pleasures ...
- Jan 31, 2011
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absolutely correct
Well I sort of agree, I cannot see what obsession you have with head covering, but yes, I will accept your statement re hell and connection
its one and the same thing ji, your saying the decision to force women to cover head is correct. To put someone on the right path or show the path is not good. It is for every individual to find his/her own path, what may be right for you, may not be right for another. Let me explain my path, all understanding, all knowledge, all I know I learned from my path, my path has been to experience every thief most intimately and to the point of destruction. It is not something I would recommend, I would recommend you follow your path, forget Babas and 'people', and follow your heart. That is the freedom I wish for everyone, you seem to want to make peoples decisions for them, on the basis that you, or some bearded buffoon who calls himself a Baba, knows better.
I quote P3
ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ मंने की गति कही न जाइ ॥ Manne kī gaṯ kahī na jā▫e. The state of the faithful cannot be described.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥ जे को कहै पिछै पछुताइ ॥ Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e. One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.
ਕਾਗਦਿ ਕਲਮ ਨ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥ कागदि कलम न लिखणहारु ॥ Kāgaḏ kalam na likẖaṇhār. No paper, no pen, no scribe
ਮੰਨੇ ਕਾ ਬਹਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ मंने का बहि करनि वीचारु ॥ Manne kā bahi karan vīcẖār. can record the state of the faithful.
It clearly states that those that have found Mukti, will not be able to share it, or advise others, therefore, those that do try and put others on the 'right path' are in violation of Guruji, in my opinion.
I have ceased calling myself a Sikh, and I will not label myself Sikh until I am ready for my hair, until then I am more than happy to be petite, ( I am 4ft 2), I live by Sikhi, that is good enough for me at present. However, I never fail to be amused by those that look like Sikhs, who have a nil grasp of the true essence of Sikhism. Again, I am not criticising, just being amused. I also have a nil grasp, but I would like to think my foundations are sound, no magic, no ritual, no divine powers, no mumbling parrot fashion, acceptance of just the one Granth and no other, (not even a few inches lower), sexual equality, and to see the whole human race, gays, lesbians, muslims, hindus, murderers, rapists, priests, teachers, accountants, chiropodists and even those that mop out the cubicles in peep shows, as one.
It does not surprise me that you see religion/culture as one...............
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Brother, your position on equality and stance against oppression is commendable.
Regarding the quote above; what are your thoughts about teaching young children? Few children appreciate being forced to sit in school and learn the alphabet, spelling, and multiplication. Some would prefer to run around the class room pulling other children's hair. But we say no, that behaviour is not acceptable, the child should be behaving in a different way, adhearing to our standards which we know will set the child up for success in the future.
Ultimately the only head covering suitable for a Sikh is a turban. What does wearing any other kind of head covering teach a Sikh girl for use in later life?
- Jan 31, 2011
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I know nothing about children, I have no children, and will never have children.However when I have interacted with children, I have noted that they are young adults. Go to a school and watch the way children are spoken to by teachers, then go to a factory and watch the way workers are spoken to by management, its exactly the same. Most work environments operate in the same way as most schools. In the private sector, you find fee paying schools treat children like adults, on the basis that if you are paying, then you must wish to learn, result, better more balanced children, more balanced adults, certainly you have a better chance of increased income if you attend a fee paying school. That is not to say that those that wish to learn cannot, but those that wish to behave like children, will always behave like children. I feel no different to the child I was aged 6.
There is time, I believe, to treat children as children, and then there is a time to treat them as adults, but this rarely takes place, adults wish to keep the monopoly on adulthood and children get lied to constantly. Go to bed, its bedtime, actually means, go to bed so I can stop pretending to be an adult, and have a drink, and behave like I normally do.
The children that run round the room pulling other childrens hair will continue to do so as they get older, they are the ones that sneak into the toilets for a sneaky joint when they get older, who run up massive credit card bills, who drive without insurance, who end up in prison for petty offences, the children that are quiet, studious, are the ones who graduate, work hard, get good jobs, save, pay bills, have a pension plan etc etc.
haha it teaches a very important lesson, get used to being told what to do,
itsmaneet
SPNer
The discussions on this topic are getting mixed with culture & religions. Before also i made my stand clear tht culture & religion are different & still am maintaining it.
One can change the culture (for Gud) but cannot Religion (any way) ...
Covering head is both culture & religion in India. Some see it as destruction of culture & some see it as hurt to religious sentiment s.
It's just asking young girls to cover up for Modesty's sake, geez, they're Not being asked to choke themselves w/ it.
PERSONALLY, I don't have an Issue w/ it, in fact, I think it's fine, unless someone truly & fiercely resists, let them do their Thing. Apparenlty there's a big drug epidemic going on in Punjab, & if that's mostly w/ male, the female counter-parts of that age, must be experiencing smthing too right?
Imo, there is No issue w/ Female headcoverings, as long as you can see a woman's face & eyes.
**AS for the Cellphone Issue, Teenagers w/ Cellphones is just a bad idea. that's a calling to get into dating & mingling w/ the Opposite sex, @ a Age they're not ready for, thats Just my opinion.
PERSONALLY, I don't have an Issue w/ it, in fact, I think it's fine, unless someone truly & fiercely resists, let them do their Thing. Apparenlty there's a big drug epidemic going on in Punjab, & if that's mostly w/ male, the female counter-parts of that age, must be experiencing smthing too right?
Imo, there is No issue w/ Female headcoverings, as long as you can see a woman's face & eyes.
**AS for the Cellphone Issue, Teenagers w/ Cellphones is just a bad idea. that's a calling to get into dating & mingling w/ the Opposite sex, @ a Age they're not ready for, thats Just my opinion.
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Lately there was a controversy about a Sikh woman who was wearing keski and using make-up, jewellery, probably doing her eyebrows etc.
She posted how she doesn't want to be judged.
Although what she was doing should have been avoided, the choice is on the person and cannot be enforced!
She posted how she doesn't want to be judged.
Although what she was doing should have been avoided, the choice is on the person and cannot be enforced!
itsmaneet
SPNer
- Jan 31, 2011
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Agreed Veerji, we all have to make our own peace with Creator, it is not for anyone to dictate to another how it should be done.
There are those that would say why bother, but as JC once said, let he who is without sin, cast the first stone, personally, I prefer 'real' people, rather than those who make every effort with the physical and then preach to others. The Gurus never tried to preach pointless fringe transgressions, they concentrated on the core.
There are those that would say why bother, but as JC once said, let he who is without sin, cast the first stone, personally, I prefer 'real' people, rather than those who make every effort with the physical and then preach to others. The Gurus never tried to preach pointless fringe transgressions, they concentrated on the core.
- Jan 31, 2011
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today it is head covering, tomorrow, it will be 'wheres the rest of the dowry', and the day after it will be 'no wife of mine will go out to work', it is the thin end of the wedge Bhenji
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