Reading And Studying, One Becomes Confused, And Suffers Punishment

[spnadmin]

Well actually Prakash S. Bagga ji you make an interesting argument. In my case, I would approach the interpretation of the entire shabad somewhat differently from how others have done it. Having said that, the translation of any line including the one you have identified, depends on the context taken from the shabad as an entire message. What is your understanding of the entire shabad? Thank you

You are stating that this tuk
ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਭੂਲਹਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
parr parr bhoolehi chottaa khaahi ||

Should mean

'READING AND FORGETTING THE READ CREATES CONFUSION AND RESULTS PUNISHNENT"

Instead of

Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment.

I do not particularly go with either translation, but like the second one a bit better. Why do you like the first one better?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

actually CHOTAN is NOT "punishment" per se...it stands for .."dar dar THOKRAN khaeh..." meaning someone who STUMBLES and SUFFERS....like a BLIND person is liable to stumble at every pot-hole, stub his foot/toe at each brick/stone along the path...all this is CHOTAAN..

Someone who thinks too highly of his own "education/status as academic/parriah likhiah/pandit/gyani/Mullah/kazi/etc etc is liable to walk with his nose held high..and most likely to step into a pot hole/puddle of dirty water/or stub his foot on a stoen lying in the path and maybe FALL DOWN as well....CHOTTAN KHAHEH. CHOT is same as Satt...strike/blow/...satt being inflicted by others(mostly) and Chottan are SELF INFLICTED due to ones own FAILINGS..

That is why a person who translates from one language to another has to be really an expert in BOTH languages, their syncrocies..finesse..vocabulary..circumstances of words usage..character of the speakers..etc etc etc... Raining Cats and Dogs CANNOT be translated as Kuttian billian da meehn baras reha hai.......in Punjabi its Batera paer heth...( baby bird under my foot) and in English it would be a Bird in hand is worth two in the Bush...(not exactly)....Dont BITE the hand that feeds you..is Dont make HOLES in your PLATE..or dont "deXXXXte" in your eating utensils ???

Its always SAFER as SPNADMIN jis says....get the GIST of the Entire Shaabd FIRST..and then concnetrate on the RAHAO..to go deeper...and really UNDERSTAND it.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN Ji.
I am really surprised to see that you are misquoting my contention.The line of the thread is not my identification.This has already been identified and we are interacting with reference to the line of thread only.
Since Gurbaani interpretaions are fully based on LOGICS.Therefore Sound and correct LOGICS are not the subject of LIKING or DISLIKING.So Gurbaani is independent of this aspect of Human thinking..

Regarding my understanding of entire SHABAD ,you are well clear about my grammatical views in Gurbaani interpretaions which I am not permitted to do. If I do I am sure you are going to take off the view.

I can simply say we all make good paraphrases of Gurbaani understanding.There is paradigm shift in the Gurbaani interpretation in absence of grammatial considerations of the words.
In this situation I can simply participate in expressing general views which I am gladly doing.I have no complaint in this regard either.

I hope you will not take my points out of context as you understand my views very well.
With best wishes,
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

SPNADMIN Ji.
I am really surprised to see that you are misquoting my contention.The line of the thread is not my identification.This has already been identified and we are interacting with reference to the line of thread only.

Prakash.S.Bagga ji

I honestly don't understand what you mean by "misquoting" If I got the wrong line, which one did you mean instead? I will happily take a look at that line. The one quoted is the line you took the time to translate.

I understand that the transliterations differ.


The one I used:

parr parr bhoolehi chottaa khaahi ||

followed by "bahuth siaanap aavehi jaahi ||

and the one you used

PADi PADi BHULAHi CHOTAA KHAi (Which you say means, 'READING AND FORGETTING THE READ CREATES CONFUSION AND RESULTS PUNISHNENT")

followed by "BAHUT SIAANUP AAWAHi JAAHi"

Please point the right line out. Perhaps you should give the Gurmukhi so that there is no confusion. Otherwise we are counting the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin. This will take the conversation off topic.

This part of your comment above makes me wonder.

Since Gurbaani interpretaions are fully based on LOGICS.Therefore Sound and correct LOGICS are not the subject of LIKING or DISLIKING. So Gurbaani is independent of this aspect of Human thinking..

Whose "LOGICS" you are referring to.? I disagree with your translation. By saying that I "don't go with" in no way implies "like" or "dislike" -- merely an attempt at truth with some diplomacy.

Thank you.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN Ji ,
Divine Greetings,

Thanks for the guidance. I may be wrong in this context. Let us proceed ahead.

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Charan]

Interesting discussion spnadmin ji and prakash.s.bagga ji... I was also going to ask how much the translation/the translator matters in analysing a shabad, but then, I came to the conclusion that since the translation is taken from SGPC, it must a be trustworthy one...

 

[spnadmin]

Interesting discussion spnadmin ji and prakash.s.bagga ji... I was also going to ask how much the translation/the translator matters in analysing a shabad, but then, I came to the conclusion that since the translation is taken from SGPC, it must a be trustworthy one...

Charon ji

The SGPC translation used on their web site is by Dr Sant Singh Khalsa. This is the Khalsa consensus translation that I wrote about earlier. Those who are advocates of Professor Sahib Singh ji's translation and Guru Granth Darpan have never accepted the Sant Singh/Khalsa consensus as an adequate translation. This however is my observation and is limited only to conversations on this forum and other Sikh forums that I have been aware of.

The question of whether any translation would be widely accepted is still open, in spite of the individual preferences that might be voiced.

p/s It does not take that long to learn enough Gurmukhi/Punjabi to work with translations, to compare them to see which one has the best solution for a particular shabad. What I have found is that the translations are uneven in quality. Sometimes one is better and sometimes another is better. So it is good to learn a little Punjabi in Gurmukhi script.

 

[Charan]

Charon ji

The SGPC translation used on their web site is by Dr Sant Singh Khalsa. This is the Khalsa consensus translation that I wrote about earlier. Those who are advocates of Professor Sahib Singh ji's translation and Guru Granth Darpan have never accepted the Sant Singh/Khalsa consensus as an adequate translation. This however is my observation and is limited only to conversations on this forum and other Sikh forums that I have been aware of.

The question of whether any translation would be widely accepted is still open, in spite of the individual preferences that might be voiced.

p/s It does not take that long to learn enough Gurmukhi/Punjabi to work with translations, to compare them to see which one has the best solution for a particular shabad. What I have found is that the translations are uneven in quality. Sometimes one is better and sometimes another is better. So it is good to learn a little Punjabi in Gurmukhi script.

Oh, thanks for the info! I prob should try to be more critical in the future... ::

 

[findingmyway]

Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."

Thank you for contributing ji : May I ask another question? Is siana both a negative and a positive word? Until now I thought it was only a positive word, as we always refer to our elders as siane bande...

Siana can be both negative and positive. Siana banda - clever man is a good connotation. However, when you reprimand someone jada siana na ban, then you are implying that someone is using their cleverness for wrong means.

With translations I like to use more than 1 to get a more rounded view.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

CHARAN Ji
I am greatly impressed by your candid observation.The information given by SPNADMIN Ji is quite true and interesting.
I would simply like to share my views based on my experiene.In the past 20 years I have personally gone thru translations of Five Authorities.All five Authorities are well qualified with great Knowledge.
My observation has been that No one has presented interpretation of Gurbaani as per grammer of Gurbaani words. Even the Authorities introducing the role and concept of grammer to Gurbaani words, have not done justice to the interpretations.

I have strong conviction after getting the understanding of grammer of Gurbaani words
that unless the Gurbaani interpretations are presented as per correct grammer of Gurbaani words the situation is going to stay like this.

In this situation you will have to make efforts to understand grammer and learn to get the meaning of Gurbaani words accordingly.This is so because it would not be easy task to do the way we establish the interpretation of Gurbaani.
It is a matter of pleasure that at least there is a Forum where you can share the views and in this process we may get the opportunities to improve our overall understanding.
This can be a great Contribution of this Forum.

I am hopeful a time will come when we would be sharing Gurbaani understanding more
according to grammer of the words as people havestarted to realise the significance of grammer in Gurbaani.No doubt it is a slow process.

With best wishes

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[findingmyway]

Prakash ji,
It would be a great seva to the community if you could write a teeka with translations based on your understanding of Gurbani grammar :redturban:

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

FINDINGMYWAYS Ji.

I thank you for suggestion. I am already on the job of getting a book published with heading: THE CONCEPT OF SHABADu IN GURBAANI"
At my Home my all family members are with me BY THE GRACE OF SATiGURU Ji.

Once again thanking you

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Charan]

CHARAN Ji
I am greatly impressed by your candid observation.The information given by SPNADMIN Ji is quite true and interesting.
I would simply like to share my views based on my experiene.In the past 20 years I have personally gone thru translations of Five Authorities.All five Authorities are well qualified with great Knowledge.
My observation has been that No one has presented interpretation of Gurbaani as per grammer of Gurbaani words. Even the Authorities introducing the role and concept of grammer to Gurbaani words, have not done justice to the interpretations.

I have strong conviction after getting the understanding of grammer of Gurbaani words
that unless the Gurbaani interpretations are presented as per correct grammer of Gurbaani words the situation is going to stay like this.

In this situation you will have to make efforts to understand grammer and learn to get the meaning of Gurbaani words accordingly.This is so because it would not be easy task to do the way we establish the interpretation of Gurbaani.
It is a matter of pleasure that at least there is a Forum where you can share the views and in this process we may get the opportunities to improve our overall understanding.
This can be a great Contribution of this Forum.

I am hopeful a time will come when we would be sharing Gurbaani understanding more
according to grammer of the words as people havestarted to realise the significance of grammer in Gurbaani.No doubt it is a slow process.

With best wishes

Prakash.s.Bagga

Thank you for sharing your thoughts prakash.s.bagga ji! Appreciate your post. Made me think. And thank you for making me more aware of the translation-aspect of analysing shabads. I had not really given it much thought before now. And best of luck for the writing of your book...
Chardi kala ji,
Charan.