Please elaborate with concrete examples about your claims and also explain what you mean by modern culture society?
Do you have any kids or others who belong to the "modern culture society"?
Refuge?
- Thread starter fschmidt
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Please elaborate with concrete examples about your claims and also explain what you mean by modern culture society?
Do you have any kids or others who belong to the "modern culture society"?
- May 9, 2006
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Is regulation not an endorsement in and of itself? It is was against it, it would have abolished it. Instead of being counter-culture, it was happy to go along with it.
I don't hate the Old Testament - it is just a book. Books don't kill people; people kill people and use their books to justify it. Or in this case, you would be well within your rights to take\buy\sell slaves.
Another reason why your group probably wouldn't jive well amid Sikhs.
fschmidt
SPNer
Tejwant Singh, your interpretation of Leviticus 19:20-22 is so absurd as to be funny. Leviticus 19:20-22 says:
“If a man has sexual intercourse with a woman who is a slave designated for another man, but she has not been redeemed or given her freedom, there must be punishment. They are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. However, he must bring a ram as his restitution offering to the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. The priest will make atonement on his behalf before the Lord with the ram of the restitution offering for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven for the sin he committed."
There is no mention of rape at all. And there is no mention of punishment for her. Only he has to pay a fine.
“If a man has sexual intercourse with a woman who is a slave designated for another man, but she has not been redeemed or given her freedom, there must be punishment. They are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. However, he must bring a ram as his restitution offering to the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. The priest will make atonement on his behalf before the Lord with the ram of the restitution offering for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven for the sin he committed."
There is no mention of rape at all. And there is no mention of punishment for her. Only he has to pay a fine.
Fschmidt,
Nice cop out to say the least but that is expected.
Common sense would require from us to inquire if the above text is mine. Is jumping to conclusions your forte taught to you by the OT? Claiming that "Tejwant Singh, your interpretation of Leviticus 19:20-22 is so absurd as to be funny. Leviticus 19:20-22"
Please post Leviticus 19:20-22 and give us your spin is a nice cop out because raping is not funny. Has anyone ever gotten raped in your family and you found it funny?
- May 9, 2006
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In fairness I have not seen 'rape' mentioned in many translations, but without a doubt she is to be scourged. Therefore punishment is due to her.
How can OT regulate something that it does not endorse?
I thought we were having an intelligent conversation to learn from each other but your above defencive stance says it all. Nice cop out again.
fschmidt
SPNer
Regulation is not endorsement. Regulating tobacco, for example, isn't endorsing tobacco.
At the time of the Old Testament, it wasn't practical to be against slavery, so the Old Testament just says nothing. Slavery wasn't eliminated by some moral movement, it was eliminated by the industrial revolution which replaced slaves with machines.
Morality in the Old Testament according to fschmidt.
Genesis 19:31-35 – Lot’s Daughters Sleep With Their Father
“Then the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.” Gen. 19:31-35
fschmidt: Please explain your moral compass as based on the above from the book you embrace.
Genesis 19:31-35 – Lot’s Daughters Sleep With Their Father
“Then the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.” Gen. 19:31-35
fschmidt: Please explain your moral compass as based on the above from the book you embrace.
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick {censored}s killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick {censored}s killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
One can not regulate before endorsing it, just like the tobacco-your example. Paying taxes on tobacco to the govt is an endorsement first by the govt so it can regulate it with taxation.
Let me try once again,How can OT regulate something that it does not endorse?
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Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker?
Answer: Abrahamic God.
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker?
Answer: Abrahamic God.
fschmidt
SPNer
I didn't come here to debate, I came to see if Sikhism can provide a refuge from modern culture. And the answer is clearly no.
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,192
Perhaps you did not come here to debate but you did come here to talk about morality as per Old Testament, which results into a debate.
Once again read my question to you about modern culture and respond with all honesty.
Sikhi has provided refuge to many many peoples around the world through out its history. You just need to study things before jumping to your own baseless conclusion.
Here is just one glimpse of Sikhi:
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Ravished means Raped.
Ravished means Raped.
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