Shariah & Implications For Sikhs?

[Harry Haller]

Gyaniji

In the world we live in today, being tactful, playing mind games, they are all needed to some extent. I am sorry to say, but if some madman broke into my shop right now, with a gun, and threatened to kill me if I was Sikh, I would lie. What purpose would telling the truth to a madman achieve? I think there are occasions where one should use discretion, that is what Bani teaches us surely. Frankly, if some unhinged person wanted me to confess to wearing ladies underwear, I would be more than happy to do so.

This does not apply to the Sikh Martyrs that were killed by the Mughals, in that situation, I would try and do the same, however, and this has been on my mind a lot, I do believe that as Sikhs, sometimes it is better to go along with the game with a view to fighting another day.

As precedent, I would like to recount Bhai Jiwan Singh. Bhaiji appeared at Chamkaur Sahib dressed as the Guru, fooling the Mughal army into thinking Guruji was still present, whilst Guruji, as commanded by the Khalsa, made his escape, to fight another day. I absolutely think that the correct action was taken by the Khalsa, but was this not a lie of sorts, surely in the face of tyranny, we should stand strong and tall, but this episode speaks volumes to me, nothing is black and white, Yes, we should live truthfully, and honestly, but also use our brains and our discretion,

comments and corrections welcome

 

[Searching]

Secondly , I don't think Naik is lying or doing taqqiyah etc.. I just think that Dr Zakir Naik's opinion has evolved and become more 'mature' ...The video where Naik is answering the Cambridge student is relatively recent..but the video in which Naik is answering the call is from years ago...So it is quite clear that Naik opinion on the issue has evolved. This happens all the time..My opinion of certain Islamic aspects was very different and now it is very different. Your world view expands as you read and experience more..but it doesn't mean that I'm practicing 'taqqiyah' now cuz now I don't believe what I used to believe..etc. ..

Well if his view has evolved the he should have answered "Yes other religions can be preached in Islamic countries" But all he said was you have to check with the country about its law"
Its not a mature answer at all. He is simply evading the issue.

 

[Searching]

Anti-Islam loons will argue "Muslims lie to further their faith" ..Well lets try that with simple logic : Suppose I'm a liar doing Taqqiyah...I tell you..Islam is this and that..great..amazing..peaceful..etc...and you convert! Now after you have 'converted' , you will start practicing Islam, right? And you will come to know that "Oh no , all that I was told was BS..Actual Islam demands me to do this this this bad stuff" ..Would you even remain a Muslim? Does this even make any sense? ... smh ..

In some countries where apostasy is punishable by death, it makes a lot of sense. But yes, not everywhere.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Dr Zakir Naik gives an example...suppose you wnat to hire a teacher to teach maths. 2 candidiates appear for the interview. You ask them..what is 2+2 and One answers 4 the other replies 5..do you honestly retain the second as a maths teacher ?? So its with Islam..it answers 4 while all the other religions say 5..so honestly..which one is TRUTH ?? Ha ha. Only the Most Ignorant FOOl would be fooled by such "logic" ..but nearly everyone claps dr naik louldy !!....who is to inform the likes of dr naik that one doenst choose ones religion based on what the Bible says..Koran says..or whatever...and one doesnt chose maths teachers based on 2+2 ONLY...Thats WHY he EVADED the Question..because a Dr naik type would evade rather than speak the TRUTH.....

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Gyaniji

In the world we live in today, being tactful, playing mind games, they are all needed to some extent. I am sorry to say, but if some madman broke into my shop right now, with a gun, and threatened to kill me if I was Sikh, I would lie. What purpose would telling the truth to a madman achieve? I think there are occasions where one should use discretion, that is what Bani teaches us surely. Frankly, if some unhinged person wanted me to confess to wearing ladies underwear, I would be more than happy to do so.

This does not apply to the Sikh Martyrs that were killed by the Mughals, in that situation, I would try and do the same, however, and this has been on my mind a lot, I do believe that as Sikhs, sometimes it is better to go along with the game with a view to fighting another day.

As precedent, I would like to recount Bhai Jiwan Singh. Bhaiji appeared at Chamkaur Sahib dressed as the Guru, fooling the Mughal army into thinking Guruji was still present, whilst Guruji, as commanded by the Khalsa, made his escape, to fight another day. I absolutely think that the correct action was taken by the Khalsa, but was this not a lie of sorts, surely in the face of tyranny, we should stand strong and tall, but this episode speaks volumes to me, nothing is black and white, Yes, we should live truthfully, and honestly, but also use our brains and our discretion,

comments and corrections welcome

I respectfully and completely DISAGREE Harry Ji.
That would be a gross insult to even the YOUNGEST SIKH Martyrs - Zorawar Singh fateh Singh Ji. They were indeed "told"..convert NOW..live life, enjoy life..and Fight another day...they even refused to "bow inadvertantly" by passing through a small HOLE..LEGS FIRST...as the HOLE was an invention by a crafty HINDU DIWAN of the Suba who hatched this plan to Force the two sahibzadahs to BOW to the Suba..that when they enter the hole they would BOW their heads and we can all Clap and say..THEY HAVE BOWED..they have BOWED..PERIOD. They have ACCEPTED the Suba as the Master.Period.
Bhai mani Singh ji was also given this option. Convert publicly..then go off and be a Sikh again in Private. Bhai Mani Singh ji replied..Can I be ever TRUSTED by anyone ever...If YOU can prove that i did convert even for a second..even temporarily..even as a FAKE MUSLIM ?? I would arther be a DEAD SIKH than a Fake Muslim and ALIVE.
Bhagat Singh cut his hair...Udham Singh cut his hair..to evade the British Govt...many Sikhs did the same thing in 1984 in Delhi etc to "survive..and Fight " another day...ALL made thei CHOICES based on their OWN PRIORITIES..not the Priority of GURMATT or Sikh History. The Sikhs in Saragharree could have survived IF they SURRENDERED ??..After all they were BRITISH soldiers..BUT NO..they were SIKHS FIRST.

Today INDIA honours bahgat and udham more than Kartar Singh sarabha who was just 17 when he was HANGED for Treason against the British..( fighting for Indian Independence)...Bhagat MURDERED a INNOCENT BRITISH POLICE inspector..and threw a Bomb in Punjab Assembly...Udham murdered the British perpertrator of Jallinhwlaah bagh massacre...while KS Sarabha just FOUGHT for Indian independence with IDEAS..just like Maharaj Singh, Ram Singh namdharee etc who began the Movement of Boycott British Goods and use Indian made products..an idea that Gandhi later "misappropriated". Today sikhs who fight with IDEAS..and those who actually blew up people like Beant CM are BOTH cast in the SAME BASKET _TERRORIST worthy of HANGING.

A SIKH worth his salt should never compromise.period. A mad man that attacks your shop...is he any less MAD than Beanta CM..or Hitler ..Or Suba of Sirhind..or Emperor Jehangir..Emperor ShahJehan..Emperor Aurengzeb or the MOBS in Delhi streets Nov 1984..or the attackers in Bluestar ??? Its a Matter of PERCEPTION...a PRINCIPLE is a PRINCIPLE..when face to face with Babar in Emnabaad..or Aurengzeb in Chandni Chowk..or the 10,000 screaming Afghans outside the walls of Saragharree..or the Jalaad ready to SKIP/short cut his job/orders to cut JOINT BY JOINT who is REPRIMANDED by Bhai Mani Singh to "Follow your orders please and CUT my JOINTS one by one..or YOU are NOT doing your JOB and cheating your Master !! That harry ji is Matter of Principle.

 

[Ishna]

Standing up against tyrants is one thing, sacrificing yourself for a madman for nothing is quite another. One can't compare the fearless sahibzadey standing up against an emperor and sacrificing their lives for the cause to Harry ji getting his beard blown off by some looney in his shop.

Harry ji hasn't specified the lead-up to the madman being in his shop. Is it part of a progrom or a 1-off act of looney violence that won't make a dent in society's mind anyway?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

AND a short query from a student while were discussing this just now...Since the person in the shop is MAD...what makes you sure he wont change his mind..I ONLY KILL those who are NOT Sikhs ?? Will you then change your story and Say..NO NO I am a SIKH...and he then laughs..thats right bro..i really KILL SIKHS !! i cheated YOU ha ha..a Mad man is a mad man...whos to argue with a mad man ???

BS Rajoanna actually killed no one..he has ADMITTED he did...do you think the Supreme Court will RELEASE HIM IF he now Converts to Hinduism ?? Convicted HINDUS have been released from hanging... A man was before the Supreme Court of India accused of "beating his wife"...his defence..My Lord..I wasnt "beating" my wife..I was Just THINKING about beating her...SAME THING said the three Judges..Fined Rs 1 lakh. case closed. In a Hour the man was Back in court...accusation..He is REFUSING TO PAY the Fine. The accused says..Your Honour..I was THINKING of PAYING the Fine..and you people just said that "THINKING about it and DOING IT" are the SAME..so I have actually PAID the Fine for Beating my wife. SO rajoanna has a very good chance of being HANGED for his "admission"...while some who actually and really murdered living persons were just commuted by the outgoing President...its a matter of perception is it not..who is mad or not ??

 

[Ishna]

It's still comparing acts of sacrifice for the community with the death of a man for no real cause.

 

[Rory]

I agree with Gyani-ji on this, in that a Sikh ideally should not decide if he lies or not based on the position of a persecutor.. I know this sounds rich coming from a very new Sikh like me, but I don't think it should make a difference if it is an emperor or some madman with a vendetta for Sikhs. I don't think lying is permissible in either case.

As for Harry-ji who said essentially "what's the use of telling the truth if you just wind up dead" (sorry if I'm para-phrasing here, but this I believe is the jist of what you said) - have we then learnt nothing from every Sikh martyr ever..?

I'm sorry if I sound a little arrogant, I know I am only new and so my views are probably really naive. It's just how I feel.

 

[Rory]

Also Auzerji, thanks for clearing up the definition of taqayya.
If your friend has a website, can you link me?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

And the Kaurs, or not really?

There is no Discrimination against Kaurs..they get the exact SAME Pahul, the exact same kakaars etc...and Kaurs like Mai Bhago showed the exact same mettle on the battlefield as Singhs and many others as Bhai Ghaniyah Ji too.

 

[Ishna]

And yet most of the Kaurs you see wearing full bana are 3HO!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

And yet most of the Kaurs you see wearing full bana are 3HO!

ha Ha RIGHT..just as the Least number of Christians are in Jerusalem ??? Ideally Jerusalem should be 100% Christian..NO ?

Its said that God threw two pieces of garbage out..the Sikhs picked out ALCOHOL..and the MUSLIMS picked TOBACCO....ALTHOUGH BOTH RELIGIONS actually PROHIBIT BOTH "garbage"...Sikhs drink like fish and Muslims smoke like chimneys... SO the 3HO Sikhs wear FULL BANNA..and accompany that Good Point with all sorts of Yogas, astrology, numerology nonsense which is NOT Gurmatt at all...while "other Sikhs dont wear banna but dont yoga astral travel etc..ha ha..NONE is 100% perfect a s per Gurmatt in SGGS,.

 

[Harry Haller]

I respectfully and completely DISAGREE Harry Ji.
That would be a gross insult to even the YOUNGEST SIKH Martyrs - Zorawar Singh fateh Singh Ji. They were indeed "told"..convert NOW..live life, enjoy life..and Fight another day...they even refused to "bow inadvertantly" by passing through a small HOLE..LEGS FIRST...as the HOLE was an invention by a crafty HINDU DIWAN of the Suba who hatched this plan to Force the two sahibzadahs to BOW to the Suba..that when they enter the hole they would BOW their heads and we can all Clap and say..THEY HAVE BOWED..they have BOWED..PERIOD. They have ACCEPTED the Suba as the Master.Period.
Bhai mani Singh ji was also given this option. Convert publicly..then go off and be a Sikh again in Private. Bhai Mani Singh ji replied..Can I be ever TRUSTED by anyone ever...If YOU can prove that i did convert even for a second..even temporarily..even as a FAKE MUSLIM ?? I would arther be a DEAD SIKH than a Fake Muslim and ALIVE.
Bhagat Singh cut his hair...Udham Singh cut his hair..to evade the British Govt...many Sikhs did the same thing in 1984 in Delhi etc to "survive..and Fight " another day...ALL made thei CHOICES based on their OWN PRIORITIES..not the Priority of GURMATT or Sikh History. The Sikhs in Saragharree could have survived IF they SURRENDERED ??..After all they were BRITISH soldiers..BUT NO..they were SIKHS FIRST.

Today INDIA honours bahgat and udham more than Kartar Singh sarabha who was just 17 when he was HANGED for Treason against the British..( fighting for Indian Independence)...Bhagat MURDERED a INNOCENT BRITISH POLICE inspector..and threw a Bomb in Punjab Assembly...Udham murdered the British perpertrator of Jallinhwlaah bagh massacre...while KS Sarabha just FOUGHT for Indian independence with IDEAS..just like Maharaj Singh, Ram Singh namdharee etc who began the Movement of Boycott British Goods and use Indian made products..an idea that Gandhi later "misappropriated". Today sikhs who fight with IDEAS..and those who actually blew up people like Beant CM are BOTH cast in the SAME BASKET _TERRORIST worthy of HANGING.

A SIKH worth his salt should never compromise.period. A mad man that attacks your shop...is he any less MAD than Beanta CM..or Hitler ..Or Suba of Sirhind..or Emperor Jehangir..Emperor ShahJehan..Emperor Aurengzeb or the MOBS in Delhi streets Nov 1984..or the attackers in Bluestar ??? Its a Matter of PERCEPTION...a PRINCIPLE is a PRINCIPLE..when face to face with Babar in Emnabaad..or Aurengzeb in Chandni Chowk..or the 10,000 screaming Afghans outside the walls of Saragharree..or the Jalaad ready to SKIP/short cut his job/orders to cut JOINT BY JOINT who is REPRIMANDED by Bhai Mani Singh to "Follow your orders please and CUT my JOINTS one by one..or YOU are NOT doing your JOB and cheating your Master !! That harry ji is Matter of Principle.

Gyaniji

Excellent reply, and frankly, although I have stated my position, my internal litmus paper was never quite happy with it. I am used to using humour and buffoonery to diffuse situations, reading your reply makes me wonder whether I could save myself a lot of time by just reacting in Hukam, and allowing events to follow the natural order. If I am brutally honest, in the hairiest of situations there are a few moments of fear until control of the situation is regained, like the time a customer pulled a knife on me, in his eyes, I could see he had no reservations about using it, I wish I had been brave enough to rip my shirt open, and say something particularly fitting, but he would have probably laughed at my baboon like hairy belly.

Most bullies are cowards, the ones with brains will respect firmness and bravery, what worries me are the mentally unhinged, the ones you cannot reason with, the ones that given sight of a bare chest will stab you anyway and giggle manically.

Having given the matter some thought, and given the concept of Hukam, I have to concede your argument.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

harry Ji...we are actually on the exact same wavelength...108.55FMgingerteakaurgingerteakaurgingerteakaur:grinningsingh:

 

[itsmaneet]

Shariah & implications for Sikhs?

What kinda quest is this...can somebody please elaborate?

 

[Rory]

It's all in the original post, really, maneet-ji

 

[Harry Haller]

harry Ji...we are actually on the exact same wavelength...108.55FMgingerteakaurgingerteakaurgingerteakaur:grinningsingh:

I have tuned to this Gyaniji, and it is full of cheesy love songs about the sort of love one only dreams of, the unachievable impossible love that we all yearn for but know that it could not exist with another human being.

are you sure this is the correct wavelength, I quite like Arthur Lee myself, he used to be something of a hero