Should Rehatanams Be Amended With Changing Times
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dear brother caramel
Sikhi is advanced but sikhs are not, its like Stephen hawkins said once that with in 20 years we would uncover all that is to know about Physics, but once we have reached that stage do you think need of the text books or books on physics would be over?
similarly for all of us who are notyet enlightened needs directions all the time
Sikhi is advanced but sikhs are not, its like Stephen hawkins said once that with in 20 years we would uncover all that is to know about Physics, but once we have reached that stage do you think need of the text books or books on physics would be over?
similarly for all of us who are notyet enlightened needs directions all the time
Dear Members,This discussion was very interesting. I can not hold myself from contributing to it.
My current position is:
(i) Rehatnama is needed for all those who are really living in material world and want to cross over to spiritual world.
'Karta Purakh' is an abstract entity; not every one can grasp it. Yet, we have to give the opportunity for all to grow. We in Khalsa Panth have to carry people from where they are.There are large number of people who are unable to decide for themselves; they prefer to be told. These people need detailed guideline to enter into domain of 'Karta Purakh'.
(ii) Part of Rehatnama should be fixed and other part dynamic.
The fixed part should be the one linked to the essence of the teachings of Gurbani and the element that create synergy within the Panth.
The dynamic part should be linked to the interface of the spiritual living with the worldly living. The dynamic part must change as the society evolves without adversely affecting the fixed part.
(iii) Rehatnama has no meaning to those who are physically living in material world but infact they have crossed over and mentally living in the spiritual world.
I do not have to elaborate on this point. Siri Guru Granth Sahib is very clear on it. I attach a sentence for Japji Sahib on this point.
mannai mag na chalai panth.
Which for me means that the intinsically spiritual individuals do not follow the rituals of the Panth.
With love and respect for all
Amarpal
My current position is:
(i) Rehatnama is needed for all those who are really living in material world and want to cross over to spiritual world.
'Karta Purakh' is an abstract entity; not every one can grasp it. Yet, we have to give the opportunity for all to grow. We in Khalsa Panth have to carry people from where they are.There are large number of people who are unable to decide for themselves; they prefer to be told. These people need detailed guideline to enter into domain of 'Karta Purakh'.
(ii) Part of Rehatnama should be fixed and other part dynamic.
The fixed part should be the one linked to the essence of the teachings of Gurbani and the element that create synergy within the Panth.
The dynamic part should be linked to the interface of the spiritual living with the worldly living. The dynamic part must change as the society evolves without adversely affecting the fixed part.
(iii) Rehatnama has no meaning to those who are physically living in material world but infact they have crossed over and mentally living in the spiritual world.
I do not have to elaborate on this point. Siri Guru Granth Sahib is very clear on it. I attach a sentence for Japji Sahib on this point.
mannai mag na chalai panth.
Which for me means that the intinsically spiritual individuals do not follow the rituals of the Panth.
With love and respect for all
Amarpal
- Jun 1, 2004
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Amarpal ji... could you redefine the word "intinsically" to clear the meanings...
Regards
Regards
Rehatnamas can and have been changed
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
The Rehatnamas are essentially "documents" penned by writers close to Guru Ji and NOT personally written by Guru Ji or signed by Guru Ji.
The authors wrote "codes of conduct" as they understood them...that is why there are many contradictions among the various rehatnamas.
Rehatnamas are NOT GURBANI. Hence they can be changed, amended by the Collective GURU KHALSA PANTH.
This process was once done in the 1930's when the SIKH REHAT MARYADA was formulated by WORLD WIDE discussion/participation of the Guru Khlasa panth...and the Draft of this SRM was Published by the Akal Takhat/SGPC. This Draft is being used in most Gurdwaras and Khalsa Schools throuh out the world. Unfortunately some "memebers" of the Drafting Committee left the discussions after they proved unable to convince the others of their personal views - these views were on MEAT eating and Raagmala. The dissenting Group wanted to BAN ALL MEAT - and Ban the reading of Raagmala as "not Gurbani". The Drafting Commitee decided to 1. make Reading Raagmala elective - those who want to read it can do so and those who dont want can stop the Bhog at MUNDAWANI. On the MEAT question it was decided that Sikhism /GURMATT doesnt BAN meat..ONLY KUTTHA which is halal Meat that is SACRIFICIAL meat ( this includes sacrificial meat of Hindu Devis/devtas/mandirs as well as the more common Muslim halal.)
This SRM was moulded from all the Rehatnamas prevalent in the times...and those that needed change were discarded or amended..
The important thing to remeber is that ONLY Dhur Ki bani "GURBANI" inside the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE is not subject to any changes/amendments/edition. Not even the Guru Khalsa Panth which co-shares GURGADHI with Guru Granth sahib jee can change the Gurbani. This si because GURBANI is timeless ....as Akal purakh from whence it came _ Dhur Ki bani ayee jin saglee chint mitayee...Bani Guru , GURU hai Bani.
Thus any changes in the rehatnmas must be consistent with GURBANI - Gurbani dee KASWATTI te. There can be no single code of conduct that CONTRADICTS what gurbani says.
Jarnail Singh
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
The Rehatnamas are essentially "documents" penned by writers close to Guru Ji and NOT personally written by Guru Ji or signed by Guru Ji.
The authors wrote "codes of conduct" as they understood them...that is why there are many contradictions among the various rehatnamas.
Rehatnamas are NOT GURBANI. Hence they can be changed, amended by the Collective GURU KHALSA PANTH.
This process was once done in the 1930's when the SIKH REHAT MARYADA was formulated by WORLD WIDE discussion/participation of the Guru Khlasa panth...and the Draft of this SRM was Published by the Akal Takhat/SGPC. This Draft is being used in most Gurdwaras and Khalsa Schools throuh out the world. Unfortunately some "memebers" of the Drafting Committee left the discussions after they proved unable to convince the others of their personal views - these views were on MEAT eating and Raagmala. The dissenting Group wanted to BAN ALL MEAT - and Ban the reading of Raagmala as "not Gurbani". The Drafting Commitee decided to 1. make Reading Raagmala elective - those who want to read it can do so and those who dont want can stop the Bhog at MUNDAWANI. On the MEAT question it was decided that Sikhism /GURMATT doesnt BAN meat..ONLY KUTTHA which is halal Meat that is SACRIFICIAL meat ( this includes sacrificial meat of Hindu Devis/devtas/mandirs as well as the more common Muslim halal.)
This SRM was moulded from all the Rehatnamas prevalent in the times...and those that needed change were discarded or amended..
The important thing to remeber is that ONLY Dhur Ki bani "GURBANI" inside the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE is not subject to any changes/amendments/edition. Not even the Guru Khalsa Panth which co-shares GURGADHI with Guru Granth sahib jee can change the Gurbani. This si because GURBANI is timeless ....as Akal purakh from whence it came _ Dhur Ki bani ayee jin saglee chint mitayee...Bani Guru , GURU hai Bani.
Thus any changes in the rehatnmas must be consistent with GURBANI - Gurbani dee KASWATTI te. There can be no single code of conduct that CONTRADICTS what gurbani says.
Jarnail Singh
Dalip Singh is known for REJECTING the GURUSHIP of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE. He Dosent beleive GURU Granth sahib jee is GURU of the Guru Khalsa Panth. He beleives that both granths - dasam as well as AAd granth are equal and just books. This is not the view of most Sikhs who firmly beleive Guru Gobind Singh Ji bestowed GURGADHI to Guru Granth sahib jee in 1708.The lion king said:
And NO SIKH can equate any other book or granth ( even dasam granth) to the level of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE. The Sikh rehat maryada states very clearly that NO BOOK or Person may have EQUAL satus to the Parkashman Guru Granth sahib Jee.
Keeping this in mind i would treat all of dalip's books with a pinch of salt.
IMHO this means: If one follows the MANN.....then one cannot follow the PANTH. The followers of Mann = MANNMATT..... the followers of PANTH=PANTHMATT (GURMATT)Amarpal said:
Guru nanak sahib Jee started the "nirmal panth" later on to become the Guru Khalsa panth.....and if "intrinsically spiritual individuals" DO NOT FOLLOW the rituals of the PANTH...then who are those who do follow the Panth ?? i hope not just ritualistically inclined individuals. Baba banda Singh bahadur was a intrinsically spiritual person....when he met Guru Gobind Singh Ji he became a KHALSA and decided to follow the PANTH ( and thus discarded his manmatt - individual intrinsically spirituality)
With Love to all
Dear Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee,
The meaning that you have suggested in your post can be one of the possibility. Guru Sahib has devoted 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th Pauri of Japji Sahib to Mannai/mannay.
I have again read these Pauris using the meaning suggested by you, but I am not able to convince my self on the appropriateness of the suggested meaning. For the time being I am keeping your suggestion in mind and may be when I am evolved enough I may change my views.
With love and respect for all
Amarpal
The meaning that you have suggested in your post can be one of the possibility. Guru Sahib has devoted 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th Pauri of Japji Sahib to Mannai/mannay.
I have again read these Pauris using the meaning suggested by you, but I am not able to convince my self on the appropriateness of the suggested meaning. For the time being I am keeping your suggestion in mind and may be when I am evolved enough I may change my views.
With love and respect for all
Amarpal
Dear Member (sikhphilosophy),
The clarification you have sought I am giving below.
We are all partly spiritual, partly worldly. We are worldly, when we are driven by desires; when this happens the siprituality in us takes a back seat as it is over taken by our worldly desires.
The part of the brain from where these desires sprong, I call Mann. This mann is also the repository of vices viz. lust, greed, envy, anger etc to name a few. When this Mann dictate my actions in this world, then I am worldly. The absence of Mann in my conduct of life makes me totally spiritual; it leads me into a life governed by caring, sharing, love, compassion, self-sufficient, unselfish etc. The individual to whom this spiritual way is her/his nature, I call intrinsically spiritual individual. This individual lives in this world from a totally spiritual base.
Guru Sahib has explained what he meant by the term Mannai/Mannay in 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th Pauri, where I have translated Mannai/Mannay as intrinsically spiritual person in one of my my post on this net).
With love and respect for all
Amarpal
The clarification you have sought I am giving below.
We are all partly spiritual, partly worldly. We are worldly, when we are driven by desires; when this happens the siprituality in us takes a back seat as it is over taken by our worldly desires.
The part of the brain from where these desires sprong, I call Mann. This mann is also the repository of vices viz. lust, greed, envy, anger etc to name a few. When this Mann dictate my actions in this world, then I am worldly. The absence of Mann in my conduct of life makes me totally spiritual; it leads me into a life governed by caring, sharing, love, compassion, self-sufficient, unselfish etc. The individual to whom this spiritual way is her/his nature, I call intrinsically spiritual individual. This individual lives in this world from a totally spiritual base.
Guru Sahib has explained what he meant by the term Mannai/Mannay in 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th Pauri, where I have translated Mannai/Mannay as intrinsically spiritual person in one of my my post on this net).
With love and respect for all
Amarpal
- Jun 1, 2004
- 3,007
- 83
- 45
No, You havn't, Sir 
Dear Member (ThinkingOne Jee),
You are right. Going the spiritual way is also a desire; I agree with you.
I had not anticipated this question, other wise I would have qualified my statement in my earlier post itself, which I am doing now.
'The worldly desires spring from Maan'.
Nature has given us organs for sensing and organs for action. They are meant to protect us from unwanted and to continuation of the species. Our excessive indulgence makes us slave of these organs; this is what Maan does; such people are called Maanmukh.
To become spiritual is also a desire. This desire originates from Buddhi i.e. the intellect. It is the natural disposition of we human. That is why Guru Sahib has said 'huee prapat maanukh dehuriya Gobind milan kee aih teri bariya'. This is the natural disposition of we humans. It gets clouded by wordly living, attachments and Ahamkar.
It is for this reason you will find that individuals with extraordinary intellect may not be very religious but they are highly spiritual.
As you have stated in your post, both are desires, but the source from where they come are different. When Buddhi guides the individual the Maan disappear, the vices get dissolved.
With Love and respect for all
Amarpal
You are right. Going the spiritual way is also a desire; I agree with you.
I had not anticipated this question, other wise I would have qualified my statement in my earlier post itself, which I am doing now.
'The worldly desires spring from Maan'.
Nature has given us organs for sensing and organs for action. They are meant to protect us from unwanted and to continuation of the species. Our excessive indulgence makes us slave of these organs; this is what Maan does; such people are called Maanmukh.
To become spiritual is also a desire. This desire originates from Buddhi i.e. the intellect. It is the natural disposition of we human. That is why Guru Sahib has said 'huee prapat maanukh dehuriya Gobind milan kee aih teri bariya'. This is the natural disposition of we humans. It gets clouded by wordly living, attachments and Ahamkar.
It is for this reason you will find that individuals with extraordinary intellect may not be very religious but they are highly spiritual.
As you have stated in your post, both are desires, but the source from where they come are different. When Buddhi guides the individual the Maan disappear, the vices get dissolved.
With Love and respect for all
Amarpal
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.
i have just finished reading through six of the most commonly quoted rehatnamas...Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai desa Singh, Bhai daya Singh, Tankhahnama.. and find loads of "time based" and "gender " bias.. Anti-Muslim bias, Pro and anti-Brahmin bias, Blatant Anti-Women Bias..all of which are not found in Gurbani, not in line with Gurbani or the principles of Sikhi/Gurmatt outlined by the Gurus, and not genuine if we look at the Guru's personal lives.
The Anti-Muslim bias is "understandable" as most of the Guru period and after that was fought agaisnt muslim rulers oppression....when in fact most of the really ANTI-GURU forces were the HINDU HILL RAJAS/the GURU's own relatives like Prithya Chand, Chan du, Dhirmalls and Hindu Diwans that pushed the muslim rulers to fight the sikhs..but since most of the writers were "hindu based" /brahmins etc they conveniently "forgot" to record any such bias and vented their anger at the muslims only.
Anti-women bias is also excess baggage from the writers' hindu/brahmin background...when from the very beginning with GURU NANAK JI itself the status of women has been the subject of specially written shabads aimed at stopping this gender bias.
Warmest regards to all
jarnail Singh
i have just finished reading through six of the most commonly quoted rehatnamas...Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai desa Singh, Bhai daya Singh, Tankhahnama.. and find loads of "time based" and "gender " bias.. Anti-Muslim bias, Pro and anti-Brahmin bias, Blatant Anti-Women Bias..all of which are not found in Gurbani, not in line with Gurbani or the principles of Sikhi/Gurmatt outlined by the Gurus, and not genuine if we look at the Guru's personal lives.
The Anti-Muslim bias is "understandable" as most of the Guru period and after that was fought agaisnt muslim rulers oppression....when in fact most of the really ANTI-GURU forces were the HINDU HILL RAJAS/the GURU's own relatives like Prithya Chand, Chan du, Dhirmalls and Hindu Diwans that pushed the muslim rulers to fight the sikhs..but since most of the writers were "hindu based" /brahmins etc they conveniently "forgot" to record any such bias and vented their anger at the muslims only.
Anti-women bias is also excess baggage from the writers' hindu/brahmin background...when from the very beginning with GURU NANAK JI itself the status of women has been the subject of specially written shabads aimed at stopping this gender bias.
Warmest regards to all
jarnail Singh
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