Should We Serve Alcohol As Guru Ka Langar?

[findingmyway]

I believe that limiting the menu to vegetarian food only is good and practical in every way.

It is practical and all inculsive which is why langar in Gurdwara was made vegetarian. However, there is no religious requirement for a vegetarian diet. This has been discussed extensively on several other threads, namely 'Only Fools Wrangle Over Flesh'.

Alcohol is wrong and not allowed for Sikhs. This has also been discussed on several threads. However, the question arises as to how much this can be enforced in private functions? Will rules and force work or is it better to educate and hope people choose to change?

Gurukameet ji,
Your original post raises more questions for me than provide answers. The obvious answer to the thread title is NO but life isn't so simple!
1) What can be called Guru Ka Langar? Although Gyani ji says every meal should be langar, when for many the feeling is not there then should it still be called langar?
2) Is there an objection to partying or to associating that partying with a Gurdwara service beforehand?
3) Should rules of conduct be different on Gurdwara property vs elsewhere?
4) Is enough being done to educate Sikhs in a non-judgmental way?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Spners and findingmywaay Ji

What is wrong with the occasional apéritifswordfight
In the last two weeks ,I have noticed we have a hardcore of prolific posters here ,very good they are too! but where are all those online readers ,400 or so ,please join in Good Sikhs. I'm new too, so jump in ,test the water you might actually like it.
This is a call to action .( admin said they want to see responses) so let us all reason out these issues, the more views there are on a topic,the less influence our personal prejudices can impact upon it!welcomemundain advance!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The position of SIKHI/Gurmatt is very clear and unambigious..as per the teachings of SGGS.

1. DIET and dietary "restrictions". methods of preparation, choice of ingredients etc etc ALL of which are very common to most religions are NOT at all discussed in GURBANI. Even in Sikh Rehat maryada, the ONLY thing that is DETAILED as to how to prepare, what ingredients to use and how to serve it etc etc..is Karrah parshaad DEGH which is MANDATORY in THE PPRESENCE of SGGS and At ALL Ocassions where SGGS is parkashed/ceremonies requiring presence of SGGS where a ANAND SAHIB is read, ARDASS performed and Hukmanmah taken.

HERE in spite of such clear and unambigous instructions..SIKHS in their self serving interests have taken to serve things like Bananas, oranges, apples, laddoos, commercially manufactured sweets, jalebis, barfis,Riorriaes, badaams, patashas (sukka parshaad), acked Parshaad etc etc etc as "PARSHAAD" and which is Patently WRONG and Ultravires the SRM. Several Gurdwaras and the NANAKSAREE THAATHS do this on a PERMANENT BASIS..that is NO Karrah parshaad is EVER prepared, brought in as Ardass Kirpan Bhet and distributed EVER. A Clear VIOLATION of the SRM...yet most SIKHS have accepted thsi lying down !! No one ever rasied an objection.
GURBANI also MENTIONS this SACRED Parshaad made up of three -atta-ghee-sugar as Pavittar food...

2. The SRM and GURBANI as well also clearly not only discourages....it OPENLY CONDEMNS in the strongest terms the consumption of ALCOHOL and other INTOXICATING SUBSTANCES. The SRM lists this as One of the FOUR MAJOR KUREHITS....which means ones DISCIPLINE as a SIKH is BROKEN andin TATTERS if one imbibes of ALCOHOL...yet surprisingly MOST SIKHS...seldom if ever..open their mouths about this except to"DRINK"..and drink they do..like fish and so unashamedly...

3. Even MORE surprising is the TOTAL SILENCE of these Sant babas Parcharaks and dholkian chhanneh kuttann wallehs about ALCOHOL....even if the mention it..its half heartedly...none of the DERAS have ever run a ANTI-ALCOHOL Campaign...becasue IF they do..they are going to annoy a lot of people...The Radha Soamis to their credit hold alcohol in very bad taste..and their Babas condemn it almost as mcuh as SGGS does !! even though SGGS is NOT their GURU but OURS.Namdharees also do the same...and SGGS is also NOT their Guru...

4. Many of my Muslim friends often jokingly say..Mr Singh..God threw two things on the RUBBISH HEAP....Meat and Alcohol...and looks like the Muslims grabbed the MEAT..and the SIKHS took back Alcohol...and the way Muslims consume MEAT..mirrors the way SIKHS consume Alcohol !!.....and Now just as SIKHS are increasingly taking to MEAT..so are Muslims increasingly falling deeply in Love with ALCOHOL...

5. One section of SIKHS have always been LOVERS of Intoxicating DRUGS like Bhang, and these occupy a Romantic hero position in Sikhs..these are the NIHUNGS....an entire section of people romantically termed saint Soldiers..Knights of God..etc etc and in their GURDWARAS..MEAT is also common. ...In fact JHATKA is mostly a NIHUNG tradition.

6. Most SIKHS..especially the sant babas and Mahapurshs keep DEAFENINGLY SILENT on the DAILY RITUAL of GOAT SLAUGHTER/JHATKA in PUBLIC VIEW and the BLOO.D tilak etc applied to the Weapons in the presence of SGGS and to SGGS in the TAKHAT HAZOOR SAHIB - One of the Five Highest TAKHATS !!!!!!!! the SILENCE among us is EMBARASSING !!! Shows our HYPOCRACY because at another Major TAKHAT the jathedar ( also a darling of the SANT babas, dera, taksaals, Mahapurashs etc etc) is a BIGAMIST whose reason for marrying more than once is to emulate Guru Gobind Singh Ji !!

7 Among us SIKHS there is a grwoing trend to TARGET small weak targets...in Amritsar the "satikaar" sikhs targetted, cornered the SHOPKEEPER cum owner of a Printing/bookseller and blackend his face and beat him up inside a room at Darbar sahib...=== his offense..he was selling SGGS to anyone who came to buy...This was clearly a "BUINESS" decision as SELLING SGGS is big business !! Here and there individuals who are NOT that BIG are targetted off and ON...BUT those Big babs that have Hukmnamahs issued by Akal takhat no less are left well alone..that is POLITICS in action...and HYPOCRACY exposed. What SIKHS must do is be FAIR and SQUARE..to all...big and small..equally.

8. Some measures are COUNTER PRODUCTIVE..when the WRONG ISSUE is addressed. Look at PUNJAB...99.9% of the WEDDING ATTENDEES go straight to the Marriage Palace..and 0.01% actually go to the GURDWARA for the Lavaan !! WHAT measures are being taken to STOP this trend...a Hukmnamah was issued to STOP the SGGS from being taken to Marriage Palaces....NOW the GURU is ABSENT but it didnt change one IOTA..the Bad habits of his SIKHS....the issue to be tackled was to STOP the Bad Habit among the SIKHS...instead the issue was SIDE TRACKED to "remove the GURU" to respect HIM !! Now the GURU is highly respected but almost alone with NO SIKHS at Lavaan ceremony which is HASTILY DONE and completed as fast as possible...TO ME..that is the worst frm of DISRESPECT !! IN Contrast in MALAYSIA...99.9% of the Anand Karaj GUESTS, Janj etc etc ALL ATTEND GURDWARA SAHIB....the Darbar is full to CAPACITY as BOTH sides..Bride's as wella s Bridegroom's attend in FULL. Then the GROOM side have another Thanksgiving diwan in the GURDWARA at their home town......the meat-alcohol drama takes place in a separate HALL as a WEDDING DINNER/BHANGRA dancing etc.... This used to take place in RENTED HALLS belonging to the CHURCHES nearby...or Chinese halls etc etc..over time SIKHS thought why NOT make our own Halls os SIKH MONEY remains in SIKH hands...as such many GURDWARAS built huge Halls for such functions and now most Sikh Wedding Dinners take place in such halls...and the Million Dollar question is..IF we FORCE SIKHS to VACATE SUCH HALLS...without stopping their INDIVIDUAL BAD HABITS of eating meat/consuming ALCOHOL and BHANGRA filthy songs on DJ...etc etc...what will really happen is the Marriage palace phenomenon in Punjab...the 99.9% Gurdwara attending 'sangat" may decide to give the Lavaan a MISS and attend the Dinner cum show ONLY at a Hall owned by other Races and help to divert sikh money away from the Gurdwaras...
HOSH and NOT JOSH is the wya to go..but i see JOSH more than HOSH...as for me..I only attend the Gurdwara and never the dinner bhangra etc as i find it distastefull...that is the way more sikhs should be persuaded to go...rather than use strong arm tactics on GURDWARAS !!

Final Line..Calling ALCOHOL "Guru ka langgar" is like telling a Muslim Pork.ham is "Hallal"...ha ha..nothing more foolish than that...

 

[spnadmin]

Re: To celebrate or not?

Confused ji

No I was not saying

..it is OK to serve meat in the Gurdwara?

This has already been decided by Guru Angad and is reflected in the SRM.

Does it not make a difference to you if this discourages Sikhs who are vegetarians and also Namdharis, Radha Soamis, Hindus and Jains who otherwise like to come to the Gurdwara, from coming as often as they like? And if the meat served is non-halal, would this not also put Muslims off?

I have no idea why my remarks have been so difficult to decipher by some forum members, other than perhaps their passion and a certain amount of "holier than thou-ism" has created a filter for reading my comments, and the raw words are not getting through.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Beadbi ...satikaar...etc are all Catch words..empty if devoid of perosnal commitment...
I once had a very good close friend..a Granthi at the Gurdwara..he was passionate to the extent of being a bore..abut the SGGS being HOT while in the normal sachkhand/sukhsan room. So he persuaded some ladies and others to spend some money and install air conditions in the sukhasan room....But once I was staying over the weekend at his Gurdwara and the Power went off. His perosnal air con was also out..so he was outside waving a fan to cool himself...I grabbed the opportunity !! Straightaway I asked him..Gyani Ji..what about our GURU JI..sleeping in that HOT ROOM...are you going to sit beside Guru ji and FAN HIM ?? His look proved to me that he is like majority of such "beadbi/satikaar" fellows...NO COMMITMENT..just HOLLOW TALKING..no action types.

2. The Genuione way to build up satikaar/stop beadbi is NOT hullarrbazee, demonstrations loud manner, rowdism, police action, spilled bloo.d etc etc..GUIDANCE..go to the place every time...stand and distribute pamphlets, show an EXAMPLE of Sikh TOLERANCE..PYAAR..and EDUCATE the sikh public...show you are COMITTED and can PERSEVERE..for YEARS if need be..become VOTERS, becoem members of that SANGAT...to CHANGE the people..the SANGAT from WITHIN....NOT Barge IN, shouting like hooligans..and remove the GURU..and claim victory..or browbeat some Gurdawra Pardhaan and shout Boleh so Nihal..thats a COWARDLY ACT...totally unbecoming of SIKHS, give us a bad image bad publicity, attach labels like hooligans talibans etc to us...and totally OUT of SYNC with Gurbani and SGGS.

 

[findingmyway]

Dear Spners and findingmywaay Ji

What is wrong with the occasional apéritifswordfight
In the last two weeks ,I have noticed we have a hardcore of prolific posters here ,very good they are too! but where are all those online readers ,400 or so ,please join in Good Sikhs. I'm new too, so jump in ,test the water you might actually like it.
This is a call to action .( admin said they want to see responses) so let us all reason out these issues, the more views there are on a topic,the less influence our personal prejudices can impact upon it!welcomemundain advance!

What is right about alcohol? You may think that you can control it but science tells us the opposute-it controls you (even if there is no addiction). Additionally Gurbani is very clear on this point. Alcohol cannot help your spirituality by any stretch of the imagination (in fact it does the opposite) and that is the important point. There is absolutely no good reason to take alcohol. Here's some reading for you:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/5964-alcohol-and-sikhism.html
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/33008-drug-experts-say-alcohol-worse-than.html

 

[findingmyway]

HOSH and NOT JOSH is the wya to go..but i see JOSH more than HOSH...as for me..I only attend the Gurdwara and never the dinner bhangra etc as i find it distastefull...that is the way more sikhs should be persuaded to go...rather than use strong arm tactics on GURDWARAS !!

I think this needs to be repeated again and again! Education and love are the way to intil morality which will cope with all tests. Enforcing rules will push people away and is unbecoming. We must not develop a holier than thou attitude but attract people to the beauty of Sikhi so all else seems pale!

 

[Archived_member14]

Re: To celebrate or not?

Spnadmin ji,

I have no idea why my remarks have been so difficult to decipher by some forum members, other than perhaps their passion and a certain amount of "holier than thou-ism" has created a filter for reading my comments, and the raw words are not getting through.

I did hesitate to respond as I wasn't sure whether you were limiting your comment only to the picnic and parties part. But the “closed concept†was in your quote which in the original referred to the idea of not allowing meat in Gurdwaras. Hope you can now see why your message was interpreted by me that way?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: To celebrate or not?

lol Confused ji, Language is confusing isn't it?

All I can do is share this thought regarding the philosopher Wittgenstein

WIttgenstein conceived of his later philosophy as 'showing the fly 'the way out of the fly bottle' (Philosophical Investigations 1.309). Philosophy, as he put it, often arises from being 'bewitched' by language, or begins 'when language goes on holiday' (1.38)...as if philosophy were an illness from which philosophers suffer.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Way Ji

It was not long ago, I heard docters recommending one or two glasses of red wine a week!

Dear Confused Ji

Never argue with the mythical creature called spnadmin ,as she has perhaps ten heads and you only have one .

Dear Spnadmin

I agree with you implicitly on all topics including those yet to be posted0

 

[findingmyway]

Dear Way Ji

It was not long ago, I heard docters recommending one or two glasses of red wine a week!

Incorrect!! I have explained why here
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/28686-alcohol-good-for-heart-not-really.html

Here is also something interesting
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/35098-report-reveals-alcohol-cancer-link.html

At the end of the day, as a Sikh I follow what SGGS says and it is clear alcohol is wrong for very good reasons. I try to follow my Guru and use that as a yardstick to assess my behaviour. I have more respect for a Sikh who drinks but knows it is anti-Gurmat and they are being a Manmukh and they can admit to it than a Sikh who drinks and obstinately tries to justify it to make themselves feel better.

 

[Randip Singh]

door where you will be given alcohol and meat.

This has happened and still happens, and why is it wrong?

Lets clarify some things.

Guru Gobind Singh ji killed Bandha Bahadhurs goats and fed them to his men and it became langaar.

Meat was served in Langaar up until the 2nd Guru when Vashnavites objected.

Some Gurudwaras still serve meat as Langaar.

With regards to alcohol, it is not a food or even a thirst quenching drink therefore it cannot be regarded as Langaar.

There are however Gurudwara's in India that have alcohol as Parshad.

People really need to get over this nonsense over some wording. If someone refered to this as Langaar, so what. Langaar can mean the meal served in an Army mess.

BTW I am against Alcohol as I do not drink myself, but it can be used medicinally.

 

[Randip Singh]

The overall growing consensus in UK is that it is wrong to serve alcohol and meat in Gurdwara premises, whether there is Guru Granth Sahib is there or not as the sangat has brought the premises and it is anti-Sikh to serve alcohol. I appreciate some administrators of SPN may disagree and feel it should be allowed, in a separate hall, but these people are a growing minority. .

Has there been a vote on this?

Where is the consensus?

You mean those rabble rousers who storm peoples weddings enforce consensus?

Oh plllllease!!

 

[Archived_member14]

Re: To celebrate or not?

Spnadmin ji,

Quote: WIttgenstein conceived of his later philosophy as showing the fly 'the way out of the fly bottle' (Philosophical Investigations 1.309). Philosophy, as he put it, often arises from being 'bewitched' by language, or begins 'when language goes on holiday' (1.38)...as if philosophy were an illness from which philosophers suffer.

I remember reading this quote more than 20 years ago and liking it a lot. It motivated me to try and find books by Wittgenstein which I did. However I found his writings extremely hard to understand, but this was probably because of the style of expression, and so they remained almost untouched on my bookshelf till the day I decided to throw most of my books away.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Findingmyway Ji

I'm not trying to justify or advocate alchohol ,I'm only saying that a symposium may not be immoral.
Surely abstinence is not the only virtue worthy of your respect.Perhaps a spotless liver does not indicate a spotless soul.

Some of the most beautiful Souls I know partake in the odd glass of wine,I respect them still , I feel that we must rise higher than these conventions.

Dearest respected sister, I'm advocating moderation in these matters,and trying to enlighten my mind and not my stomach.

 

[arshi]

This is precisely the problem in allowing meat and alcohol to be served on premises owned by or associated with the Gurudwara Sahib, often these halls are adjacent to the Gurudwara itself and it has been known for langar to be cooked at the Gurudwara langar precinct and served in the hall next door where a liberal attitude is taken to the consumption of meat and drink – thus mixing langar (sanctified food at the feet of the Guru - bhog lagwana) with other food and liquid products. It is quite common in such circumstances for this to be referred to as ‘Guru ka Langar’ on invitation cards. Such langar prepared with devotion in the Guru’s langar hall is then served in the party hall with all its impurities thus 'polluting' the food which earlier received the Guru’s blessing through the Ardas and ‘bhog’.’ I agree with Ishna ji saying calling it Guru Ka Langar on the card does not make it Guru Ka Langar if the essential discipline is not observed.

On another thread (now closed), this was the core principle in point not the protagonists involved, as they change according to each case. The Sikh awareness on this is changing rapidly in the <?xml::

UK, although isolated cases do blow the issue out of proportion. Whatever the argument there is no justification for Sikhs fighting Sikhs, even in the face of goading or provocation (this saddens me a lot). In my humble opinion, it is wrong to serve meat and alcohol on premises owned by or associated with the Gurudwara Sahib. <?"urn:<img src=" />

I know that some feel that hiring out halls make commercial sense and will ease the Guru Ghar’s financial problems and these may be noble thoughts. However, if the Guru Ghars are managed properly, the Sikh tenets adhered to and expounded with true devotion and dedication finance will not be an issue. The majority of Sikh Gurudwaras in the UK have flourished over the years and we see impressive and beautiful buildings in place of small houses and wooden sheds these started from – I was involved with a few in the 1970s. None of these had to resort to raising funds by being liberal in the use of their premises, although talk of this has been going on since the early 70s and in my experience each time this was at the behest of those who loved a lifestyle involving meat and alcohol. Then they did not have their way and Gurudwaras flourished nevertheless. We can do it now without comprising our standards and principles.



The sad thing (as pointed out by Gurukameet) is the Gurudwara proceedings are fast becoming a necessary ritual with some which they feel has to be tolerated before the party begins. I have also noticed that many miss the Gurudwara function altogether and take up seats at the celebration hall well in advance.

None of the above comments are aimed at anyone in particular and are meant in good faith – apologies in advance or any offence caused.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[Admin]

Dear All, i have just added a public poll at the top of the topic to get a clear picture of what and why you think on this topic. You can make multiple selections for your answers. It would be appreciable if you could explain the reason behind choosing a particular selection.

Thank you
Gurafteh!

 

[findingmyway]

Dear Findingmyway Ji

I'm not trying to justify or advocate alchohol ,I'm only saying that a symposium may not be immoral.
Surely abstinence is not the only virtue worthy of your respect.Perhaps a spotless liver does not indicate a spotless soul.

Some of the most beautiful Souls I know partake in the odd glass of wine,I respect them still as I feel we must rise higher than these conventions.
Dear respected sister I'm advocating moderation in these matters,and trying to enlighten my self, not my stomach.

Spotless liver does not equal a spotless soul-I agree. However, that cannot be used as justification for the odd drink. There has to be a line. Sikhi is a journey and we are all at different points. Wherever you are on that journey, if you accept SGGS as your Guru then you must accept the teachings. Accepting and following are different things so if you choose to continue drinking then that must be accepted as your PERSONAL choice despite the teachings rather than making excuses. There are many things we do that do not add to our spirituality but the aim of a Sikh's life is to tackle those gradually. I don't drink and I am far from perfect-I accept that. I accept that some things I do are not completely inline with Gurmat but I will not justify them by saying oh well what's the harm!!

Moderation does not apply to alcohol. Look to your experiences and science to tell you that in some situations even 1 drink is enough to make you lose your senses. Many ethnic groups and individuals are dispropertionately affected by alcohol and become addicted easily due to genetics so the concept of moderation is not always possible wrt alcohol. If you lose your mind, even a little bit then you are moving away from Waheguru. It's not about immorality as much as facing your own actions and their consequences. Facing the fact you have chosen and owning up it is a choice, even if it a choice that goes against Gurbani.

Knowing the direction of the journey and whether you are travelling that way or not is worthy of my respect regardless of your precise point on the path. Making excuses is not.

Anyway we digress from the starter article so if you want to continue this discussion we can do that elsewhere.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Dear Findingmyway Ji

I think what we are both saying is relevant to the underlying aspect ,even if not to the Langar one,where else shall we take it, maybe we should go for a drink?winkingmunda
More seriously the question is whether abstinence is a categorical imperative of our faith,or is it a convention based on a certain interpretation of the Guru's Word.

Perhaps someone better qualified could find the passages that we need to study.

My personal life is my own, I do what I believe to be right,before coming to this position ,I was teetotal for nearly ten years ,but I felt my God ,he who stores Universes like sweets in a jar, didn't really care that much about that minor aspect of my life !

 

[findingmyway]

My personal life is my own, I do what I believe to be right,before coming this I was teetotal for nearly ten years ,but I felt my God ,he who stores Universes like sweets in a jar, didn't really care that much about that minor aspect of ones life !

This is where we disagree as I do not think it is a minor aspect (but maybe that's because I am in healthcare). As well as the mind, it affects your social life and sangat. I also do not think abstinence is for God but for ourselves. Sikhi does not believe in an abrahamical God. The gurbani has been covered in some of the links I posted earlier which is why I have not repeated it.