Sikh Sovergnity !
- Thread starter dalsingh
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- Apr 4, 2007
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i tend to agree with dalsingh... khalistan can easily be considered a nation without a state... much like assam, tamil elan, palestine, east turkmenistan, catalonia... there are too many to list.
some people call such landless nations as "fourth world".
an interesting article:
https://www.ihro.in/?q=node/102
some people call such landless nations as "fourth world".
an interesting article:
https://www.ihro.in/?q=node/102
and it will be called "Kingdom of heaven" but it won't be one.
Just kidding Dal ji..
Don't get me wrong. It isn't like I think Sikhs haven't a long way to go before they can handle running a country of their own without discrimination and backwardness.
- Jun 7, 2006
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<<regarding the rule of people... i was under the assumption that a democracy means people do want to rule themselves, in fact ARE ruling themselves. in america we call this a government "by the people, of the people, and for the people". i'm pretty sure it's the essence of democracy>>
this is same in india kelly ji
in fact we have multiple party system instead of just two parties which allows minority voice to be spoken in the parliament.
you cannot compare USA with India , simple because USA is all immigrants with culture a mish mash of multiple cultures, all growing up in 1700's till now. the cultural disparities in india have deeper roots.
<<can you please explain this "opt out" option? i was not aware that Sikhs had such an oppurtunity. i'd like to learn more about this.
>>
Master Tara Singh and others represented Akali dal during the partition discussions,
king of Kapurthala and erstwhile PEPSU all unanimously decided to join Indian Union.
this is same in india kelly ji
in fact we have multiple party system instead of just two parties which allows minority voice to be spoken in the parliament.
you cannot compare USA with India , simple because USA is all immigrants with culture a mish mash of multiple cultures, all growing up in 1700's till now. the cultural disparities in india have deeper roots.
<<can you please explain this "opt out" option? i was not aware that Sikhs had such an oppurtunity. i'd like to learn more about this.
>>
Master Tara Singh and others represented Akali dal during the partition discussions,
king of Kapurthala and erstwhile PEPSU all unanimously decided to join Indian Union.
- Jun 7, 2006
- 1,323
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<<i tend to agree with dalsingh... khalistan can easily be considered a nation without a state... much like assam, tamil elan, palestine, east turkmenistan, catalonia... there are too many to list.>>
let's see how each of them is stacked
Tamil Eelam - Language based division(Religion happens to be a factor Hindu/Buddhist)
Palestine - Genuinely displaced people(more cultural but given religious overtones)
east turkmenistan - Uihghur Muslims rebelling against Chinese Han majority(Cultural)
Catalonia - Cultural - you really donot want to go into 1200 years of spanish history. spain is more like UK in its political structure.
now where does Khalistan stand?
it is purely religious division. india had it once and has suffered badly because of this due to mischiveousness of the British.
How do you justify khalistan?
what is the locus standi?
why should sikhs have a seperate country?
When there was a "contiinuous" sikh kingdom?
the rule of Ranjit Singh was as big a blip as blink of eye when considering atleast 2000 years of recent Indian history. And even that was majorly in the regions which are now in pakistan.
nations based on religion never succeed. There are many examples, we have an example in our neighbourhood itself.
let's see how each of them is stacked
Tamil Eelam - Language based division(Religion happens to be a factor Hindu/Buddhist)
Palestine - Genuinely displaced people(more cultural but given religious overtones)
east turkmenistan - Uihghur Muslims rebelling against Chinese Han majority(Cultural)
Catalonia - Cultural - you really donot want to go into 1200 years of spanish history. spain is more like UK in its political structure.
now where does Khalistan stand?
it is purely religious division. india had it once and has suffered badly because of this due to mischiveousness of the British.
How do you justify khalistan?
what is the locus standi?
why should sikhs have a seperate country?
When there was a "contiinuous" sikh kingdom?
the rule of Ranjit Singh was as big a blip as blink of eye when considering atleast 2000 years of recent Indian history. And even that was majorly in the regions which are now in pakistan.
nations based on religion never succeed. There are many examples, we have an example in our neighbourhood itself.
- Apr 4, 2007
- 934
- 29
i'm ignoring your first comment since it's totally unrelated to your statement or my response.
regarding partition... isn't it true that Master Tara Singh and Akali Dal were given some promises to encourage them to join, which were promptly broken by Mr. Nehru? this is the basis for the current autonomy movement, i believe.
i don't think it's really fair to say sikhs were given the oppurtunity to "opt out", since the information they recieved about the future semi-autonomy of punjab and treatment of sikhs was based on lies and false promises. i would say instead that they were decieved into "opting in".
- Apr 4, 2007
- 934
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please don't misunderstand me. i do not believe a physical nation-state called khalistan is currently a viable option. that's not what i'm saying at all. i do believe, however, that khalistan as an ideal exists in the hearts of sikhs world wide, and that it transcends man-made national boundries. no one is trying to create a new nation in your neighborhood.
oh, and read up on tamil eelam, your assumptions that it's a purely linguistic division, or that religion has anything to do with it, are a bit off base.
- Jun 7, 2006
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<<regarding partition... isn't it true that Master Tara Singh and Akali Dal were given some promises to encourage them to join, which were promptly broken by Mr. Nehru? this is the basis for the current autonomy movement, i believe. >>
do you have any documentary proofs of the promises?
<i don't think it's really fair to say sikhs were given the oppurtunity to "opt out", since the information they recieved about the future semi-autonomy of punjab and treatment of sikhs was based on lies and false promises. i would say instead that they were decieved into "opting in".>>
same question again...what is documentary proof?
this is output of the propoganda machine....there is no evidence.
all maharajas knew that if they donot join indian republic, they would starve economically else will be attacked by Pakistan. India was the best option available and hence was chosen.
do you have any documentary proofs of the promises?
<i don't think it's really fair to say sikhs were given the oppurtunity to "opt out", since the information they recieved about the future semi-autonomy of punjab and treatment of sikhs was based on lies and false promises. i would say instead that they were decieved into "opting in".>>
same question again...what is documentary proof?
this is output of the propoganda machine....there is no evidence.
all maharajas knew that if they donot join indian republic, they would starve economically else will be attacked by Pakistan. India was the best option available and hence was chosen.
- Apr 4, 2007
- 934
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i'm going to assume that whatever links i give to support this stance will be deemed "propaganda" and therefore worthless, so i guess i won't bother to dig them up.
you believe your version of history and i will believe mine. i doubt we'll be able to reconcile them.
thanks for the conversation.
- Jun 7, 2006
- 1,323
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same here
history as a matter of fact is never objective.
How is Khalistan as an idea different from Ummah?
abt Tamil eelam, its conflict between Tamil speaking population which traces its roots to india and local sinhalese speaking population which is predominantly buddhist/muslim.
it is similar in nature to serbo-croat wars in balkans.
I would highly recommend a 3 book series by world bank - "Understand Civil War"
it is a good analysis that how local war mongers manipulate socio economic grudges and mould them to fan unrest and civil wars
this book also explains how wars are fast becoming business.
i will not be surprised if we discover that many people actually run Khalistan propaganda machines for profit.
history as a matter of fact is never objective.
How is Khalistan as an idea different from Ummah?
abt Tamil eelam, its conflict between Tamil speaking population which traces its roots to india and local sinhalese speaking population which is predominantly buddhist/muslim.
it is similar in nature to serbo-croat wars in balkans.
I would highly recommend a 3 book series by world bank - "Understand Civil War"
it is a good analysis that how local war mongers manipulate socio economic grudges and mould them to fan unrest and civil wars
this book also explains how wars are fast becoming business.
i will not be surprised if we discover that many people actually run Khalistan propaganda machines for profit.
Amar veer. I don't doubt that some people may do this but also their are also some who actually wish for some space for Sikhs to carve out their own destiny and have some breathing space of their own. No need to get panicked about this.
Indian sikhs have seen bad days during 1984 riots. It was the worst that could have happend.The recent Bomb blast in a Cinema House of Punjab is also pointing fingers toward the sikhs orgnisation. It is after 2 and half a decade that sikhs have got a chance to be in mainstream .But it seems a dream now.
One can think of many things to contribute to sikhi.Why not get sikhs declared as a separate entity as per constitution Of india. As per constitution sikhs are still Hindus. Huh, we r talking of Sovergnity. WE can never be an independent satate de facto nor de juro .
Bad luck guys/pals
One can think of many things to contribute to sikhi.Why not get sikhs declared as a separate entity as per constitution Of india. As per constitution sikhs are still Hindus. Huh, we r talking of Sovergnity. WE can never be an independent satate de facto nor de juro .
Bad luck guys/pals
Yes, Dal ji you are right but it is possible if we do simething positive at individual level instead of thinking that some extraneous agency will approach us and guide us.
You may think of someting better.This discussion is not going to lead us anywhere.
Food for thought
You may think of someting better.This discussion is not going to lead us anywhere.
Food for thought
- Jun 7, 2006
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the only positive thing i can think of is that people focus on their own local problems and stop worrying about nirvana for the whole world.
sikhs in punjab are not as stupid as people assume them to be. If they deem that they donot want khalistan, people outside should keep their "enthusiasm" and "good wishes" to themselves.
sikhs in punjab are not as stupid as people assume them to be. If they deem that they donot want khalistan, people outside should keep their "enthusiasm" and "good wishes" to themselves.
Dear Veer ji,
Khalistan is a distant dream.All that i suggest is that there should not be some set up to guide us.There is no need of getting black outs for nothing dear.The problem is known. Why cannot we get our constitutional right in India. Mr Baranal is governor of some state in South India. Mr. M Singh is puppet of Sonia gandhi. Do you thoink that this kind of leadership in INdia would be helpful or the SGPC will take care of the interets. It had messed up the Deras. Why has it permitted such a growth.?
We lack a sincere guide at political level. There is no one who would take interest in this matter. How do you propose? Let us see your point of view as well if you are from Punjab.
Regards
Khalistan is a distant dream.All that i suggest is that there should not be some set up to guide us.There is no need of getting black outs for nothing dear.The problem is known. Why cannot we get our constitutional right in India. Mr Baranal is governor of some state in South India. Mr. M Singh is puppet of Sonia gandhi. Do you thoink that this kind of leadership in INdia would be helpful or the SGPC will take care of the interets. It had messed up the Deras. Why has it permitted such a growth.?
We lack a sincere guide at political level. There is no one who would take interest in this matter. How do you propose? Let us see your point of view as well if you are from Punjab.
Regards
- Jun 7, 2006
- 1,323
- 145
simple
stop voting for candidates whom you know are corrupt and are not good leaders
a hugely low turn out would make the world sit up and notice
participation in constitutional process by youth - how many educated youth are willing to take up politics the clean way?
to NRIs - stop pumping in money - its only fueling wastage and lethargy in the youth. let them work it out if they want good life.
its easier to write a cheque for khalistan than actually reducing your ego of building palatial homes and spoiling today's youth with easy money.
stop voting for candidates whom you know are corrupt and are not good leaders
a hugely low turn out would make the world sit up and notice
participation in constitutional process by youth - how many educated youth are willing to take up politics the clean way?
to NRIs - stop pumping in money - its only fueling wastage and lethargy in the youth. let them work it out if they want good life.
its easier to write a cheque for khalistan than actually reducing your ego of building palatial homes and spoiling today's youth with easy money.
- Jun 7, 2006
- 1,323
- 145
and veerji
my thinking is that we should think abt impactying our near environment.
make sure you guide a youngster - how to start a small business and sustain it
make sure you stand up and speak against any high handedness of SGPC or officials. use the constitutionally provided facilities like RTI, Anti corruption act for your help
participate and not criticize
my thinking is that we should think abt impactying our near environment.
make sure you guide a youngster - how to start a small business and sustain it
make sure you stand up and speak against any high handedness of SGPC or officials. use the constitutionally provided facilities like RTI, Anti corruption act for your help
participate and not criticize
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