Sikhi After Life

[Harkiran Kaur]

if you could clear up something I would be hugely grateful.

you write



Ok, I can run with this, what you call Soul, I call man, devoid of all desires, and perfect, it is the good angel on my shoulder, however

you then write



this confuses me, your above description of the Soul sounds pretty perfect, like it is already merged with Waheguruji, or at least it represents it in some way, as a drop represents the ocean, but at what point is it seperated from Waheguruji that it would feel this non physical pain?

It would be more that it 'forgot' that it was already merged... always was merged.... etc I think that is what is meant by separation. Actual separation is an illusion. This illusion created by the mind / physical...

 

[Harry Haller]

no Akashaji that does not make sense.

The Soul to me, is that part of you which is the divine light..

this intimates the Soul to be pretty divine, you are near enough saying that the Soul is a representation of Creator itself

but

It would be more that it 'forgot' that it was already merged.

So this Soul that is representing Creator itself sometimes forgets its merged with Creator, so the the Soul thinks it is seperated, but the seperation itself is merely an illusion, and in such circumstances the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion.

Have I got your point correctly or have I misunderstood?

 

[harmanpreet singh]

So this Soul that is representing Creator itself sometimes forgets its merged with Creator, so the the Soul thinks it is seperated, but the seperation itself is merely an illusion, and in such circumstances the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion.

Have I got your point correctly or have I misunderstood?

Harry ji you got it very correctly , ya " the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion".

Just like A king feel pain in dream /illusion of being beggar .

Bhagat Ravidass ji expressed bfully,


ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਭਗਤ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਕੀ
रागु सोरठि बाणी भगत रविदास जी की
Rāg soraṯẖ baṇī bẖagaṯ Raviḏās jī kī
Raag Sorat'h, The Word Of Devotee Ravi Daas Jee:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਜਬ ਹਮ ਹੋਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੂ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਬ ਤੂਹੀ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
जब हम होते तब तू नाही अब तूही मै नाही ॥
Jab ham hoṯe ṯab ṯū nāhī ab ṯūhī mai nāhī.
When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.
ਅਨਲ ਅਗਮ ਜੈਸੇ ਲਹਰਿ ਮਇ ਓਦਧਿ ਜਲ ਕੇਵਲ ਜਲ ਮਾਂਹੀ ॥੧॥
अनल अगम जैसे लहरि मइ ओदधि जल केवल जल मांही ॥१॥
Anal agam jaise lahar ma▫i oḏaḏẖ jal keval jal māʼnhī. ||1||
The wind may raise up huge waves in the vast ocean, but they are just water in water. ||1||
ਮਾਧਵੇ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਐਸਾ ॥
माधवे किआ कहीऐ भ्रमु ऐसा ॥
Māḏẖve ki▫ā kahī▫ai bẖaram aisā.
O Lord, what can I say about such an illusion?
ਜੈਸਾ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਨ ਤੈਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जैसा मानीऐ होइ न तैसा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jaisā mānī▫ai ho▫e na ṯaisā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Things are not as they seem. ||1||Pause||
ਨਰਪਤਿ ਏਕੁ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਸੋਇਆ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਭਇਆ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥
नरपति एकु सिंघासनि सोइआ सुपने भइआ भिखारी ॥
Narpaṯ ek singẖāsan so▫i▫ā supne bẖa▫i▫ā bẖikẖārī.
It is like the king, who falls asleep upon his throne, and dreams that he is a beggar.
ਅਛਤ ਰਾਜ ਬਿਛੁਰਤ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਗਤਿ ਭਈ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
अछत राज बिछुरत दुखु पाइआ सो गति भई हमारी ॥२॥
Acẖẖaṯ rāj bicẖẖuraṯ ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā so gaṯ bẖa▫ī hamārī. ||2||
His kingdom is intact, but separated from it, he suffers in sorrow. Such is my own condition. ||2||
ਰਾਜ ਭੁਇਅੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ ਜੈਸੇ ਹਹਿ ਅਬ ਕਛੁ ਮਰਮੁ ਜਨਾਇਆ ॥
राज भुइअंग प्रसंग जैसे हहि अब कछु मरमु जनाइआ ॥
Rāj bẖu▫i▫ang parsang jaise hėh ab kacẖẖ maram janā▫i▫ā.
Like the story of the rope mistaken for a snake, the mystery has now been explained to me.
ਅਨਿਕ ਕਟਕ ਜੈਸੇ ਭੂਲਿ ਪਰੇ ਅਬ ਕਹਤੇ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੩॥
अनिक कटक जैसे भूलि परे अब कहते कहनु न आइआ ॥३॥
Anik katak jaise bẖūl pare ab kahṯe kahan na ā▫i▫ā. ||3||
Like the many bracelets, which I mistakenly thought were gold; now, I do not say what I said then. ||3||
ਸਰਬੇ ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਭਗਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
सरबे एकु अनेकै सुआमी सभ घट भोगवै सोई ॥
Sarbe ek anekai su▫āmī sabẖ gẖat bẖogvai so▫ī.
The One Lord is pervading the many forms; He enjoys Himself in all hearts.
ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਹਾਥ ਪੈ ਨੇਰੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
कहि रविदास हाथ पै नेरै सहजे होइ सु होई ॥४॥१॥
Kahi Raviḏās hāth pai nerai sėhje ho▫e so ho▫ī. ||4||1||
Says Ravi Daas, the Lord is nearer than our own hands and feet. Whatever will be, will be. ||4||1||




sri waheguru ji ki fateh

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

no Akashaji that does not make sense.



this intimates the Soul to be pretty divine, you are near enough saying that the Soul is a representation of Creator itself

but



So this Soul that is representing Creator itself sometimes forgets its merged with Creator, so the the Soul thinks it is seperated, but the seperation itself is merely an illusion, and in such circumstances the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion.

Have I got your point correctly or have I misunderstood?

It makes perfect sense! And and Harmanpreet Ji has shown an excellent example quote!

Yup you got it!! Separation IS the illusion... like the drop of water analogy you used... the drop was never removed from the ocean to begin with, it just 'forgot' that it was in the ocean (because of the illusory world it created for itself as a separate being) a kind of self-induced amnesia that makes it forget that it really is a drop still in the ocean!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harmanpreet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please always add the panna number when you copy and paste a Shabad so others can go back and research more for their own understanding.

You write:

ਨਰਪਤਿ ਏਕੁ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਸੋਇਆ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਭਇਆ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥
नरपति एकु सिंघासनि सोइआ सुपने भइआ भिखारी ॥
Narpaṯ ek singẖāsan so▫i▫ā supne bẖa▫i▫ā bẖikẖārī.
It is like the king, who falls asleep upon his throne, and dreams that he is a beggar.
ਅਛਤ ਰਾਜ ਬਿਛੁਰਤ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਗਤਿ ਭਈ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
अछत राज बिछुरत दुखु पाइआ सो गति भई हमारी ॥२॥
Acẖẖaṯ rāj bicẖẖuraṯ ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā so gaṯ bẖa▫ī hamārī. ||2||
His kingdom is intact, but separated from it, he suffers in sorrow. Such is my own condition. ||2||

Pardon my ignorance, but what does this have to do with the topic first of all and then how did you connect two lines from the Shabad with soul/illusion etc. etc?

Please express what this Shabad means to you which the literal translations can not explain.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji you got it very correctly , ya " the Soul feels the pain of seperation, even though it is merely an illusion".

Just like A king feel pain in dream /illusion of being beggar .

Bhagat Ravidass ji expressed bfully,


ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਭਗਤ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਕੀ
रागु सोरठि बाणी भगत रविदास जी की
Rāg soraṯẖ baṇī bẖagaṯ Raviḏās jī kī
Raag Sorat'h, The Word Of Devotee Ravi Daas Jee:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਜਬ ਹਮ ਹੋਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੂ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਬ ਤੂਹੀ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
जब हम होते तब तू नाही अब तूही मै नाही ॥
Jab ham hoṯe ṯab ṯū nāhī ab ṯūhī mai nāhī.
When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.
ਅਨਲ ਅਗਮ ਜੈਸੇ ਲਹਰਿ ਮਇ ਓਦਧਿ ਜਲ ਕੇਵਲ ਜਲ ਮਾਂਹੀ ॥੧॥
अनल अगम जैसे लहरि मइ ओदधि जल केवल जल मांही ॥१॥
Anal agam jaise lahar ma▫i oḏaḏẖ jal keval jal māʼnhī. ||1||
The wind may raise up huge waves in the vast ocean, but they are just water in water. ||1||
ਮਾਧਵੇ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਐਸਾ ॥
माधवे किआ कहीऐ भ्रमु ऐसा ॥
Māḏẖve ki▫ā kahī▫ai bẖaram aisā.
O Lord, what can I say about such an illusion?
ਜੈਸਾ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਨ ਤੈਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जैसा मानीऐ होइ न तैसा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jaisā mānī▫ai ho▫e na ṯaisā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Things are not as they seem. ||1||Pause||
ਨਰਪਤਿ ਏਕੁ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਸੋਇਆ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਭਇਆ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥
नरपति एकु सिंघासनि सोइआ सुपने भइआ भिखारी ॥
Narpaṯ ek singẖāsan so▫i▫ā supne bẖa▫i▫ā bẖikẖārī.
It is like the king, who falls asleep upon his throne, and dreams that he is a beggar.
ਅਛਤ ਰਾਜ ਬਿਛੁਰਤ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਗਤਿ ਭਈ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
अछत राज बिछुरत दुखु पाइआ सो गति भई हमारी ॥२॥
Acẖẖaṯ rāj bicẖẖuraṯ ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā so gaṯ bẖa▫ī hamārī. ||2||
His kingdom is intact, but separated from it, he suffers in sorrow. Such is my own condition. ||2||
ਰਾਜ ਭੁਇਅੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ ਜੈਸੇ ਹਹਿ ਅਬ ਕਛੁ ਮਰਮੁ ਜਨਾਇਆ ॥
राज भुइअंग प्रसंग जैसे हहि अब कछु मरमु जनाइआ ॥
Rāj bẖu▫i▫ang parsang jaise hėh ab kacẖẖ maram janā▫i▫ā.
Like the story of the rope mistaken for a snake, the mystery has now been explained to me.
ਅਨਿਕ ਕਟਕ ਜੈਸੇ ਭੂਲਿ ਪਰੇ ਅਬ ਕਹਤੇ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੩॥
अनिक कटक जैसे भूलि परे अब कहते कहनु न आइआ ॥३॥
Anik katak jaise bẖūl pare ab kahṯe kahan na ā▫i▫ā. ||3||
Like the many bracelets, which I mistakenly thought were gold; now, I do not say what I said then. ||3||
ਸਰਬੇ ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਭਗਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
सरबे एकु अनेकै सुआमी सभ घट भोगवै सोई ॥
Sarbe ek anekai su▫āmī sabẖ gẖat bẖogvai so▫ī.
The One Lord is pervading the many forms; He enjoys Himself in all hearts.
ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਹਾਥ ਪੈ ਨੇਰੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
कहि रविदास हाथ पै नेरै सहजे होइ सु होई ॥४॥१॥
Kahi Raviḏās hāth pai nerai sėhje ho▫e so ho▫ī. ||4||1||
Says Ravi Daas, the Lord is nearer than our own hands and feet. Whatever will be, will be. ||4||1||




sri waheguru ji ki fateh

and herein are shown , in my view, thats my own view, the consequences of randomly searching for words and phrases to back up an argument. This is way too ambigious to prove your point, in fact, it only makes me question further how the soul can be seperated if it is Creator within us, if it is already perfect.

When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.

this intimates the man has found his inner soul and is the man lamenting seperation from Creator, from indeed his inner soul. It is not the soul that was ever seperated, it is not the soul that forgets

 

[Astroboy]

It would be more that it 'forgot' that it was already merged... always was merged.... etc I think that is what is meant by separation. Actual separation is an illusion. This illusion created by the mind / physical...

In Selok Kabir Ji Page 1375 Line 10
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td> ਕਬੀਰ ਤੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਤੂ ਹੂਆ ਮੁਝ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਹੂੰ ॥
कबीर तूं तूं करता तू हूआ मुझ महि रहा न हूं ॥
Kabīr ṯūʼn ṯūʼn karṯā ṯū hū▫ā mujẖ mėh rahā na hūʼn.
Kabeer, repeating, "You, You", I have become like You. Nothing of me remains in myself.
</td></tr><tr><td> ਜਬ ਆਪਾ ਪਰ ਕਾ ਮਿਟਿ ਗਇਆ ਜਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਤ ਤੂ ॥੨੦੪॥
जब आपा पर का मिटि गइआ जत देखउ तत तू ॥२०४॥
Jab āpā par kā mit ga▫i▫ā jaṯ ḏekẖ▫a▫u ṯaṯ ṯū. ||204||
When the difference between myself and others is removed, then wherever I look, I see only You. ||204||
</td></tr><tr></tr></tbody></table>

 

[Astroboy]

The 'I AM' - the experiencer - that exists within all of us... the part of you (and me and everyone) that 'experiences'... IS THE ONE.

Recognize that 'HE IS ME'
Realize your 'OWN SELF'

Akasha Ji,

Gurfateh to you. It is understood by me that words can't explain much about realization and experiences....as in Goongey Ki Mithiyai.... so that's why we often read books and entire texts because we are hungry for the right way to describe those lofty experiences. Many a time, we end up in hair-splitting debates simply because words of duality are still used when trying to explain the one-ness. In Gurbani the word Sohang has been used to express (Page 1093) I am He, and He is Me.

 

[spnadmin]

In my opinion this thread is destined to be a theological train wreck. The shabad is not related to the topic of the thread. The only connection to be made is with the theme of separation.

One might note that whenever the concepts of atma, separation, and the pain of separation are mentioned in SGGS ji they are the context NOT the lesson of any particular shabad.

Some comments of late may lead us to a place where we are behaving not unlike the brahmins who are gurus to the world but not gurus of the devotee Kabir.

Are any of these questions relevant to Guru Nanak's teachings?

1. If the perception of separation is an illusion, why would connection not also be an illusion?
2. We assume that some mental process, let's call it Ego, causes the false perception of separation. But how does atma gain a false sense of separation, such that it feels pain or suffers?
3. Does Ego suffer pain, or does atma suffer pain? Or do they both suffer pain?
4. Does Ego make atma aware of its sense of separation or connection? Or does atma do this independently of Ego?
5. Does atma have perceptions?
6. Is an atma capable of perceiving itself as separated or connected?
7. Is there one atma for each individual person?
8. If there is one atma for each individual, then by definition atmas are all separate and the perception of being separated is correct, and not an illusion.
9. On the other hand, perhaps all atmas are connected through the divine principal of God in All.
10. If all atmas are connected indirectly through the Sat, then how do some of them get disconnected?
11. Or do all of them become disconnected?
12. Do a rare few remain connected through an individual lifetime?
13. Let's assume that the Ego or False Self is a very individual process. How do individual egos cause the inter-connected atmas to experience the illusion of separation? Which part of the connected atma decouples from the others?

In sum, is it atma or something else that experiences the pain of separation? Presumably all of these questions have answers. We might find however that the answers take us outside the teachings of SGGS ji. Some answers might be answers to questions that are important to Islam, or Christianity, or Zoroastrianism, but not to Sikhi.

 

[Luckysingh]

The soul doesn't forget !
It is the Ego that overrides the recognition of the soul, once the ego diminishes then the timeless soul within can flourish.

In sidh gosht p945, the sidhs ask what is the soul and how does the sun submerge into the moon.

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮੈਗਲੁ ਕਹਾ ਬਸੀਅਲੇ ਕਹਾ ਬਸੈ ਇਹੁ ਪਵਨਾ ॥

Ih man maigal kahā basī▫ale kahā basai ih pavnā.

Where does this mind-elephant live? Where does the breath reside?


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਹਾ ਬਸੈ ਸੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਉਧੂ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਚੂਕੈ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਵਨਾ ॥

Kahā basai so sabaḏ a▫oḏẖū ṯā ka▫o cẖūkai man kā bẖavnā.

Where should the Shabad reside, so that the wanderings of the mind may cease?


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਤਾ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪਾਏ ॥

Naḏar kare ṯā saṯgur mele ṯā nij gẖar vāsā ih man pā▫e.

When the Lord blesses one with His Glance of Grace, he leads him to the True Guru. Then, this mind dwells in its own home within.


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਆਪੈ ਆਪੁ ਖਾਇ ਤਾ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਏ ॥

Āpai āp kẖā▫e ṯā nirmal hovai ḏẖāvaṯ varaj rahā▫e.

When the individual consumes his egotism, he becomes immaculate, and his wandering mind is restrained.


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਿਉ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਆਤਮੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਕਿਉ ਸਸਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥

Ki▫o mūl pacẖẖāṇai āṯam jāṇai ki▫o sas gẖar sūr samāvai.

How can the root, the source of all be realized? How can the soul know itself? How can the sun enter into the house of the moon?


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਖੋਵੈ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੬੪॥

Gurmukẖ ha▫umai vicẖahu kẖovai ṯa▫o NānaThe Gurmukh eliminates egotism from within; then, O Nanak, the sun naturally enters into the home of the moon. ||64||
k sahj samāvai. ||64||



The sun is a reference to fiery mind with ego, passion and ignorance whereas the moon is calm and free of ego, pure and no dualities.
See some explanations in sidh ghost thread if needed. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/40157-guru-nanak-dev-ji-being-asked.html#post179901
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[spnadmin]

Luckysingh ji

This is the point

ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਤਾ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪਾਏ ॥

Naḏar kare ṯā saṯgur mele ṯā nij gẖar vāsā ih man pā▫e.

When the Lord blesses one with His Glance of Grace, he leads him to the True Guru. Then, this mind dwells in its own home within.

It is the answer to how we make the connection. Everything else is mental gymnastics. No credit goes to anything other than "satguru." This was Guru Nanak's answer to questions about the how's and why's of atma, the how's and why's of sachkhand or any other of the khands, and the how's and why's of heaven, hell and life after death. When one achieves this, one has it all.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Akasha Ji,

Gurfateh to you. It is understood by me that words can't explain much about realization and experiences....as in Goongey Ki Mithiyai.... so that's why we often read books and entire texts because we are hungry for the right way to describe those lofty experiences. Many a time, we end up in hair-splitting debates simply because words of duality are still used when trying to explain the one-ness. In Gurbani the word Sohang has been used to express (Page 1093) I am He, and He is Me.

It Is very difficult indeed! I have ideas in my head and putting them into words so others can know what I am trying to say is not easy.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

spnadmin Ji,

In my opinion this thread is destined to be a theological train wreck. The shabad is not related to the topic of the thread. The only connection to be made is with the theme of separation.

It's relevant in the sense that to the concept of surviving physical death requires a nonphysical part of you that is what survives. So the question of soul is very connected to the question of 'afterlife' etc.

Are any of these questions relevant to Guru Nanak's teachings?

Definitely! Of course it depends on what side of the fence you are sitting and how you interpret what he taught. We have already shown that there exists two distinct divides of belief of what was taught. We can sit her forever and debate but in the end those on one will still believe what they believe, and those on the other will still stay on their side. If you are on the side of only nature, science and no soul, no actual God etc and interpret everything from that standpoint then you will maybe not think that these questions have any relevance because you see things in terms of the physical only. For those who interpret Gurbani as saying there is a soul, is more than the physical etc. we will definitely see relevance. This doesn't mean that we need to ridicule those who are on the opposite side that we believe (or stop them from posting their beliefs because they differ from our own) We can post our own beliefs without becoming irate towards each other. Gurbani is open to interpretation... as already stated by Tejwant Ji.

I will try to answer your questions as per my beliefs and understanding, knowing that yours will be different from mine. And that's ok. We can agree to disagree!

1. If the perception of separation is an illusion, why would connection not also be an illusion?
   
   When you take a hunk of cheese, and point at one part of it, you don't say that part is connected, so much as you just say there is only a hunk of cheese... to speak of something as being connected implies separateness.
   
2. We assume that some mental process, let's call it Ego, causes the false perception of separation. But how does atma gain a false sense of separation, such that it feels pain or suffers?
   
   Self Induced.
   
3. Does Ego suffer pain, or does atma suffer pain? Or do they both suffer pain?
   
   Ego is not a persona... it's only a state that atma is experiencing. It's atma that experiences the pain because of experiencing through ego.
   
4. Does Ego make atma aware of its sense of separation or connection? Or does atma do this independently of Ego?
   
   Again, ego is only the state that atma is experiencing within... ego is not an independent entity so no, the way I understand ego doesn't make aware separation or connection. It's more just a state or barrier to realizing that there was never any separation to begin with. Connection as I said is an odd word to use... as it implies something separate... it's more become aware that there never was separation.
   
5. Does atma have perceptions?
   
   yes. atma is the doer, the experiencer... and is the one who is experiencing the perceptions through the illusion of individuality.
   
6. Is an atma capable of perceiving itself as separated or connected?
   
   Yes again, the atma IS the YOU. Ego, mind, etc are all tools being used to interact with the illusion.
   
7. Is there one atma for each individual person?
   
   no. there is only one atma... it is the same atma within every person and every thing. It is the creator experiencing itself subjectively through the eyes of many characters within its own creation. In fact it might even be easier to say that creation as we know the physical world to be, is actually within atma rather than saying atma is within us. Page 736 where it speaks about the actor staging the play, and also playing all the parts of all the characters, but when the costumes are removed, then there is only one. There is only one atma and we are the characters.
   
8. If there is one atma for each individual, then by definition atmas are all separate and the perception of being separated is correct, and not an illusion.
   
   correct. But there is only one atma it is not different for me and you. It's the same divine light.
   
9. On the other hand, perhaps all atmas are connected through the divine principal of God in All.
   
   again, there is only one atma and no connection per say. You don't speak of the ocean as drops because it's only one body of water. So there is no connection to be had. the drops always existed completely merged within the ocean. There is only the ocean...
   
   
10. If all atmas are connected indirectly through the Sat, then how do some of them get disconnected?
    
    again there is only one atma, there never was any disconnection... only the illusion of it, and the forgetting of 'being one'
    
11. Or do all of them become disconnected?
    
    I believe the whole point is that creator became self aware, through its own creation, and the illusion of individuality was a required part of the awakening.... to arrive at a point where the characters developed spiritually enough to ask the questions "where did I come from? and what is my purpose?" I believe we collectively are the process of self awakening of creator through its own creation.
    
12. Do a rare few remain connected through an individual lifetime?
    
    inconsequential... as mentioned connection implies separateness. And separateness is an illusion. There is no connection, there is just being.
    
13. Let's assume that the Ego or False Self is a very individual process. How do individual egos cause the inter-connected atmas to experience the illusion of separation? Which part of the connected atma decouples from the others?
    
    Its like a dream. The characters appear all as separate entities when in fact they never existed as separate entities and were the one same dreamer all along. The illusion of separation is self induced by the dreamer in order to experience a created world and in turn to experience itself. Just as when you read a book, you immerse yourself within the surroundings, you see the story within your mind. You cant just look at the book as a whole from the outside and actually experience it. Even if you could glance and see all the words at once.... you have to experience it in terms of a timeline, a story, and immerse yourself within that world in order to experience it. The author similarly experiences their story as they are writing it...
    

In sum, is it atma or something else that experiences the pain of separation? Presumably all of these questions have answers. We might find however that the answers take us outside the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I don't think they take us away from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at all. Again it depends on what side of that divide you sit on. If you are interpreting things from a purely scientific and 5 senses point of view, then you might think different than someone who interprets Gurbani from a spiritual point of view. Not trying to raise any arguments or anything... I am only trying to explain my beliefs and understanding of Gurbani. Just because we have differing opinions of interpretation does not mean that one side should ban the other side from voicing theirs because it does not agree with theirs. As Tejwant Ji said already, Gurbani is open to interpretation and that's the beauty of it.

I believe we can agree to disagree...

 

[spnadmin]

akasha ji

Just to be clear. I am not sitting on any divide with respect to these particular questions. They are there to demonstrate how little we know, not how much I think I know, about atma, separation, illusion, and the role played by haumei.

There are those who do not hesitate to explain these concepts from their personal experience. "Talking about" will be as varied as their are talkers; and explanations will be as different as their experiences are.

If I am sitting on any divide, it is the division between careful vichaar of Shabad Guru and the fulmination of personal opinions that the Internet invites. Because I take my own ignorance very seriously, I also take my role as chela of the Guru to heart. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only tool I have to separate the signal from the noise.

Thanks for taking a crack at the questions. I was not expecting answers, but posted them only so that people would realize how each question contains the seeds of its own nemesis in truth, and how easy it is to step into logical fallacy and contradiction. The beautiful camel mind is a very clever mind; sometimes it is so anxious for a cool drink that it mistakes a mirage for the spring. The camel is smart enough to know when he is lapping up sand. We are not always so smart. We humans at times will remain faithful to the mirage, in the belief sand is more nourishing than water.

p/s I myself do not have answers for those questions. Not a clue.

 

[findingmyway]

As an outside observer coming to the thread for the first time today, I am struck by the attitude of many posters of you are either with us or against us. I must admit I also used to fall into this trap when I was new here. It is important to recognise that each person's understanding covers a spectrum. Each of those spectrums will overlap at points. Having an 'us and them' attitude is not healthy as then people are debating, i.e. proving a point, rather than discussing to learn. It also invites judgements on topics beyond the one being discussed leading to conflict.