Sikhism / Advaita Vedanta philosophy

[Sikhilove1]

Has SPN been hijacked by brahmanical fanatics ?

he’s talking about the relationship between what our Gurus taught and his faith. What is fanatical about that. Teachers like Jesus taught tenants of Truth. It’s not crazy that the entire universe runs by the laws of Truth, and that not only one section of the world knows about it. There are planets upon planets who practice it as taught by Guru Nanak, not just a tiny few.

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

There is Re Search of outer awareness and Inner awareness too.
Inner Awareness research is like diving in a deep sea. The researchers have reached depths and a few have touched ends. There experiences a d scrib are different from the previous one. But rulers and policy makers do not accept especially if the research is not by there own community. Acceptance is further difficult.
Thought transformation after new reseach is a long term process.

As process of research. Any new realistic experience is Re Search and a new thought with the new beginning. Any such thought needs to be validated that it is New has to be validated by document review of previous work. If the thought is not existing it is new and can be documented as a new Research.

What I find Gurus Bani as latest Research and Scrib of Spirit Awareness. The previous glimpse and practitioner are sufficient to reject and obsolete the old one. But if some one loves to keep or drive on 1st Models of car. It is fan ship. It shall not be negated.
Humanity shall not be compared and negated. And followance of new shall not bring abuse to old.

As it prevailed and is past experience to be preserved through fans.... That is also within Nature.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khals
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[Manmohan Singh Kumar]

One important difference between Advaita Vedāntai and Sikh phiosphy is that in the latter, Waheguru ji's creation is not an artificial artifact; the world is not a mere "illusion"; Waheguru ji Himself is in it. Similarly for the human body-- "Eh Sarera Merya Har Tum Meh Jot Rakhi" (Anand Sahib); and for wservice to humanity; and for fightng injustice.

 

[Hersh3]

SSA ji,
What is Brahman according Advaita philosophy ???

As per my understanding through Gurbani , the whole existence is GOD. both in its Sargun and Nirgun form and governed by Hukum.
The totality of existence is GOD .

Brahm is the reality/ existence from which the world arises and into which it dissolves. By definition, Brahm is outside of time “trikaal abadhitam”, space, experience, and reason.

Our Atma is identical to brahm.

Brahm is not to be worshiped (since it is us) but “realized”.

How and why brahm creates this universe, and how our physical and non physical (ideas, thoughts, etc.) existence connects to the Atma— these are explained consistently through the vedantic literature. However, the details are of mostly scholarly interest.

Vedant Hinduism is consciously not a religion. I have read somewhere here that it is ritualistic. As a matter of objective fact, vedant has no rituals. It seeks not to build any community or church or practice or power base. It is pure spiritual teaching— it’s sight is set on “mukti”, freedom from misguiding passions and illusions.

The central project of Vedant, its mission, is to translate parmathik staya, the highest truth, to vyavharik goal of improving human life. The theory is, when your selfish attachments are gone, and you see yourself as one with the whole, then selfless service comes naturally to you.

Vedant refers to Unpanishads, since they occur at the end of the Vedas. The central teaching of Vedant is that the world and the creator are one, non dual— hence Vedant teaches Advait.

Brahm is described as being satya-gyan-anant
The atma as sat-chit-anand
Worldly objects as asti-bhanti-priyam. The correspondence and hierarchy is clear (is you know the words).

The Atma, existent everywhere, is expressed as consciousness uniquely in the “mirror” of mind. Mind is the thought faculty of the brain— mind is the software on the hardware of brain. When your eyes apprehend an image, and the mind creates a thought (“realization”) corresponding to that image, then we become aware of that mental projection of the image through consciousness.

Consciousness is who we are. We are not our body, thoughts, emotions, perceptions, or memories. We are not our caste, gender, or occupation. We are consciousness. If you’re reading this, then your essential attribute is awareness. Not identity, senses, or intell. YOU are the awareness you have.

It common to confuse intelligence for consciousness. Intelligence is the ability to solve a problem. A knife cuts better than a human hand, and a chess computer plays chess better than us. However, intelligent systems are not conscious.

Nothing can detect consciousness. Since consciousness IS what detects all objects, there is nothing that can perceive consciousness.

 

[Hersh3]

I have studied Advait, not vishisht advait. However, I do know that VishAdv (like Mahayan Buddhism) believes that one superior (vishisht) entity can help deliver other lesser beings to liberation. This is also what Christians and Muslims can be said to believe. Those who worship Krishna or Durga, etc., too have this root belief. Advait believes that we are all Devine, that “we already have what want and we already are what we want to become”. Ignorance keeps us from realizing this. We alone can awaken to our divinity. That is Moksha. We can all be Buddha, Christ, or Krishna. We ARE that. “Tat tvam asi”, “that thou art”.

WJKK WJKF
There certainly are similarities. Have you looked into a related Vedanta philosophy called "Vishishtadvaita"? I think you'll find it an even closer fit.

 

[Hersh3]

One important difference between Advaita Vedāntai and Sikh phiosphy is that in the latter, Waheguru ji's creation is not an artificial artifact; the world is not a mere "illusion"; Waheguru ji Himself is in it. Similarly for the human body-- "Eh Sarera Merya Har Tum Meh Jot Rakhi" (Anand Sahib); and for wservice to humanity; and for fightng injustice.

Hmmm. Kindly allow me to clarify that in Advait the world is not “an artificial artifact”. By definition, Advait uses two central terms for anything that exists: “satya” and “mithya”. “Sat” in Sanskrit is “essence” or “existence”. “Satya” is “truth” or “reality”. When you ask what “really exists”, i.e., what is the absolute or ultimate or fundamental reality, then is it hard to claim that anything that was created is the ultimate. Advait stipulates that the ultimate reality is Brahma. Everything else derives from it. BY DEFINITION (emphasis, not shouting), as a technical term, “mithya” is everything that has dependent reality. Everything that has a cause is mithya.

That doesn’t make it “artificial” in the sense of authenticity of existence or deserving to survive. It doesn’t imply that firemen not attend to fires burning homes. Or that fathers leave their families and go out to become swamis.

It DOES suggest that people learn to not prioritize material over relationships and society and human values.

If you are doubtful, or want to know more, I can site sources.

Thanks for your attention.

 

[Hersh3]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Guru Pyaari Saadh Sangat Ji

Comparative theology is a hobby of mine

I have recently been studying the philosophy of non duality - Advaita Vedanta - where the entire universe is regarded as contained in the Brahman with everything that goes on being Vyawharika as opposed to the true reality of Parmartika

I was intrigued by the parallels in which our gurbani seems to echo this concept of "The lord in everything and everything in the lord"

Here are a couple of what I believe are supporting lines from the SGGS-ji

Kabeer Mulla Minare Kya Chadhe Sai Na Behraa Hoye
Ja Kaaran Tu Baang De - Dil Hi Bheetar Joye

Aapay maachi machli aapay pani jaal - aapay jaal mankada aapay andar laal

gur kirapaa jeh nar kau keenee teh ieh jugat pachhaanee; naanak leen bhio gobi(n)dh siau jiau paanee sa(n)g paanee

From SDGS - ji

mai na ganeseh piratham manaauoo; kisan bisan kabahoo(n) na dhiaauoo; kaan sune pahichaan na tin so; liv laagee moree pag in so

Thoughts? Reactions? Am I maybe wrong? Maybe right?

Guru Fateh!!

I believe that you are right. To my thinking, while the Guru is great and revered, he is not worshiped so he will take your soul to heaven. That is what Christians and majority of Hindus believe.

Advait believes that following the teachings of Vedanta— i.e., realizing the identity of Atma with Brahm— is what removes ignorance. Removal of ignorance, it is taught, reveals the truth. Knowledge of truth alone removes suffering, and delivers moksha. Not Krishna, not Ram, not Durga.

 

[Hersh3]

But the vedantic philosophy of Brahman cannot be correlated with Gurmat philosophy.
Vedanta claims Brahman is the ultimate
and only truth.

But the texts are themselves not clear about the conception and identity of Brahman.
There are many contradictions in various texts abt brahman.

What is the definition of ultimate truth???

In contrast Gurbani provides a framework of a living philosophy which is practical and useful.

The definition of “ultimate reality” is “trikaal abadhitam”, that is beyond time and eternal. It is not exactly true that “the texts are themselves not clear about conception and identity of Brahm.” It is also not really true that there are material contradictions.

I would agree that the source texts are hard to translate. However, the ancient scholars developed and used advanced hermeneutics— systems of language, logic, and knowledge that helped accurately translate the archaic texts.

One text literally states that “Purush resides in the heart”, another that “the mind reflects Atma”. Those two claims are considered identical. There is no debate or uncertainty across many thousands of years of scholarship. Purush, atma, brahm, braahman, ishvar, etc. have been used to represent the ultimate reality. Similarly, “heart”, “mind”, etc. are used to refer to the seat of cognition. It is not seen as a contradiction by any scholar— western, eastern, ancient, or modern.

Indeed, the characteristic attribute of the Vedic corpus is how unchanged the texts have survived 5,000 years of oral transmission.

 

[A_seeker]

Brahm is the reality/ existence from which the world arises and into which it dissolves. By definition, Brahm is outside of time “trikaal abadhitam”, space, experience, and reason.

Baba Nanaks :
The One Omnipresent God (IK Ongkar) who is in existence(SAT) ,Who is the Creator Being ,Fearless and Without Enmity,Timeless and Formless And who is self created ,Is realised through the Enlightenment of the Shabd(Guru)..."

Do we have anything in Advaita which have similarity with above verses?

 

[Hersh3]

SSA ji,
What is Brahman according Advaita philosophy ???

As per my understanding through Gurbani , the whole existence is GOD. both in its Sargun and Nirgun form and governed by Hukum.
The totality of existence is GOD .

Question: did the Guru meditate and enjoin meditation upon his followers?

The brief answer to your question is— Yes. Just read Mandukya upnishad (7th of total 12 mantras).


Here is a detailed answer …
Brahm is that from which this created world arises (Ishopnishad) and into which it dissolves (Kathopnishad). The param Brahma is nirgun-nirakar and out of time, Ishvar (param Brahma + prakriti) is sagun-nirakar, Viraat is the cosmos with time included (all space time).

Hukum might be like “Dharma”, but Param Brahm is the source of Dharma too.

The creation has five aspects: aakash, vayu, agni, aap (“water”), and prithvi. And five Gunas (shabd, sparsh, tej, taste, and smell).

The Sikh shabd might be “Aumkaar”. In Advait, shabd is equated to the immanent universe.

Shabd (possibility, the seed of creation) is the essential attribute of Aakash (space), sparsh of vayu (awareness, non-physical Guna), tej (Revelatory, equates to information) of agni, ras (taste or essence, equates to experience) of water, and gandh (equates to attachment to experience) of earth.

To worship Shabd is to worship Viraat— universe in the expressed and incarnate form. That is the worship shown in the Gita, when Krishna appears in his viraat form to Arjuna. It is the immanent and accessible divinity. According to Gaudapad’s reading of Mandukya, this is the divinity of the waking state. It is the “A” of the aumkara.

In Advait, the three levels of divinity are not hierarchical. No one says that one is superior to another. Ishopnishad clearly asserts that the source and the product are both equally divine (“poorna”).

Aum (the sound, with its silence included) is equated to Parambrahm in Maundukya upnishad. “A” + “U” + “M” + “ ”.

A is the same divinity as the immanent universe. U is the sookshm (सूक्ष्म; non-physical, i.e., informational) universe, but considered created. “M” is the creator, and is depicted as prakriti+brahm (aka Ishvar), and is an obscure concept. It is the result of the power of maya.

The silence that follows AUM (and precedes the next if you’re chanting) is the param brahm.

This mapping or equation of aum to the four realities is for the purposes of meditative attainment of mukti. If you’re not into meditation, all this is irrelevant.

The Wrishis (equivalent to Guru) are revered, but not worshipped. Their authority in spiritual revelation is not challenged, but they are not infallible or divine. They are human, like you and I. They have sex, get angry, forget, etc.

Hope this helps.

I have no intent to influence or convert. Sikhism is a great religion. If a son of mine became a Sikh, I’d love him no less, and maybe the more. If I can say this as a Hindu— wahe Guru. 🕉

 

[Hersh3]

I have explored Vishistadvaita but for me it is less satisfying than the pure Advaita school of thought -

By my (all too poor) understanding Guru Gobind Singh Ji veers towards Vishishtadvaita in the following

Jo Pooja Asket Ki - Nit Prat Kar-ay Banai
Tin Par Apno Haath Dei Asdhuj Let Bachai

implying IMO that the Protector is an external entity who stands apart from the Evil

The guru of Shivaji, a famous Advaiti, sought the council and teachings of the tenth guru at Patna sahib.

 

[Prem_ras]

Baba Nanaks :
The One Omnipresent God (IK Ongkar) who is in existence(SAT) ,Who is the Creator Being ,Fearless and Without Enmity,Timeless and Formless And who is self created ,Is realised through the Enlightenment of the Shabd(Guru)..."

Do we have anything in Advaita which have similarity with above verses?

Yes exactly the same btw you are calling out contradictions in vedanta may I know how qualified are you for the subject which books have you read exactly?

 

[Hersh3]

Personally I think SGGS made things simpler and easier for all of humanity - no complicated rituals - just straightforward a method to bhavjaal paar utaar

There are no rituals in Advaita vedanta.

 

[Hersh3]

Has SPN been hijacked by brahmanical fanatics ?

I don’t think so. This is just one of hundreds of threads.

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

All religious symbols are indicators (Nishan) ie symbols. It relates to origins.

Aum relates to cosmic initiation of matter and substances Negative Positive and Neutral.

Ek O Ang Kar is Creation of ONE cell which is unit of each living creation.

Why we need to mix and impose physical and biological.
And need to impose.

When so much information was available and was existing, than what was the need of New Release. If all the information was pre existing

There is new scrib with new awareness of events.

If someine has done research, though I have not, but aware because observed someone doing research, that to bring thesis of research, ONE has to review, all previous literature, and than if the idea is new, it can print.

Now for all those who are followers of old philosophical ways.

Mokhsa ie Salvation is Dharma, Artha, Sanyasa, Moksha

New philosophy says Daya, Santokh, Seva, Elevated living.

New philosophy says at initiation of life, shows the door of salvation.

saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.
aakhahi mangahi dahi dahi daat karay daataar.
fayr ke agai rakhee-ai jit disai darbaar.
muhou ke bolan bolee-ai jit sun Dharay pi-aar.
amrit vaylaa sach naa-o vadi-aa-ee veechaar.
karmee aavai kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.
Karmee Ave Kapda Ie After getting human birth, understand by inner awareness ONE can realise door of salvation.

OLD philosophy believes is rituals and are practising and wasting life force and source, to get meditative mind.

New philosophy says Only and only way to get meditative mind is to conclude desires, and work to bring satisfaction.

Spirituality is only TRUE treasure, Healthy Mind Senses and Body comes through awareness of SELF.

And Physical wealth, Position, and Human gained intellact are virtual posessions, which has no inheritance.

So old philosophy say Brahmans son is Brahman, and Sikhs son is Sikh, ie religion is by birth, which is deep rooted in our political system.

New philosophy says, it is spirtual education, resulting in behaviour transformation, makes a human right spirited person

Mind is juggled and puzzled by subjectivity of words, way to knowledge or seeking is objective realisation.

 

[ravneet_sb]

Seekers were supposed to hold the spiritual batten and there was high spirited ruling at times when they were holding a batten of right spirited behaviour. But with adulteration and influence, the state is under different rule making collapse of spiritual awareness of Guru Nanak.

Hope it will revive.

Bhai is working on spiritual education and social order, we owe it, but packing spirit and dominance is again taking us far back to old exploiting systems of rulers.

Hope humanity understands and attain spiritual knowledge and awareness by way of objective realisation, and not by way of vocal parroting, reading, writting without realisation and getting essence each WORD.

 

[ravneet_sb]

Seekers were supposed to hold the spiritual batten and there was high spirited ruling at times when they were holding a batten of right spirited behaviour. But with adulteration and influence, the state is under different rule making collapse of spiritual awareness of Guru Nanak.

Hope it will revive.

Bhai is working on spiritual education and social order, we owe it, but packing spirit and dominance is again taking us far back to old exploiting systems of rulers.

Hope humanity understands and attain spiritual knowledge and awareness by way of objective realisation, and not by way of vocal parroting, reading, writting without realisation and getting essence each WORD.

Changes in Human Governing System with Spiritual Education.

1. Religion will not be labelled through reproduction but with spiritual education and transformation of right behaviour and service to humanity
2. False ritiual system will shed with new awareness.
Moaning for long hours, Chanting for long hours, it is medicine for mental illnes, but false ritual among normals.
3. Doubts Fear Ignorance will dispel and Faith Confidence and Research will grow.
4. New social order of uniformity in law and practices will be in place.

Division caused by politics to rule over people, all men and women will understand. government is for the people and of the people,. Presence awareness to some voters is Government is by the people.

Though Indians feel they feel the highest spiritual legacy as sometimes posessed by there ancestors. But they lack grossly in spirituality and practices.

Reason is in ONE line

sahas si-aanpaa lakh hohi ta ik na chalai naal.

Information gained through human effort can not be inherited.

As child of doctor/ engineer/CA can not be doctor/CA or engineer, until one make education and practice.

So how a child of Hindu is Hindu, Sikh is Sikh, Christain is Christain, Muslim is Muslim, it is no way by nature but man made false norms.

Human Child comes with no information, all the intellact gains are from here and has to leave here.

So better focus on education and new research of outer and inner awareness.

 

[Hersh3]

Sat Sri Akaal,

All religious symbols are indicators (Nishan) ie symbols. It relates to origins.

Aum relates to cosmic initiation of matter and substances Negative Positive and Neutral.

Ek O Ang Kar is Creation of ONE cell which is unit of each living creation.

Why we need to mix and impose physical and biological.
And need to impose.

When so much information was available and was existing, than what was the need of New Release. If all the information was pre existing

There is new scrib with new awareness of events.

If someine has done research, though I have not, but aware because observed someone doing research, that to bring thesis of research, ONE has to review, all previous literature, and than if the idea is new, it can print.

Now for all those who are followers of old philosophical ways.

Mokhsa ie Salvation is Dharma, Artha, Sanyasa, Moksha

New philosophy says Daya, Santokh, Seva, Elevated living.

New philosophy says at initiation of life, shows the door of salvation.

saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.
aakhahi mangahi dahi dahi daat karay daataar.
fayr ke agai rakhee-ai jit disai darbaar.
muhou ke bolan bolee-ai jit sun Dharay pi-aar.
amrit vaylaa sach naa-o vadi-aa-ee veechaar.
karmee aavai kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.
Karmee Ave Kapda Ie After getting human birth, understand by inner awareness ONE can realise door of salvation.

OLD philosophy believes is rituals and are practising and wasting life force and source, to get meditative mind.

New philosophy says Only and only way to get meditative mind is to conclude desires, and work to bring satisfaction.

Spirituality is only TRUE treasure, Healthy Mind Senses and Body comes through awareness of SELF.

And Physical wealth, Position, and Human gained intellact are virtual posessions, which has no inheritance.

So old philosophy say Brahmans son is Brahman, and Sikhs son is Sikh, ie religion is by birth, which is deep rooted in our political system.

New philosophy says, it is spirtual education, resulting in behaviour transformation, makes a human right spirited person

Mind is juggled and puzzled by subjectivity of words, way to knowledge or seeking is objective realisation.

Ek Omkaar!
I worship the great sage Guru Nanak.

Dear brother, in materialism, there is authorship and clamor for “first” and “original”. In India, we did not spill blood over authorship. The richas of the vedas do not have the names of composing rishis, the great temples donot have names of artists, towns and cities are not named, “abdul abaad”, “krishnistaan”, etc. our religions too do not have names. Indians did not call it Hinduism. Even sanatana dharma is not a noun, but an adjective.

If you like, we can say Gurunanak is the original thinker. But he will say that that is not important. Wahe Guru will likely ask us to not split threads, but look at our intentions, and focus on actions.

Dear sir, you are WRONG in everything you say about the old religion. I say this with love and respect, and hope you will forgive my saying so. I am happy to give you specific and uncontroversial details on each of the points where you have misunderstood the old religion.

As Indians, the old and the new are both ours. Sikhism is our religion, Hinduism is our religion. A religion that divides is poison and a fake religion.

I hope India is inspired by the great Sikhs, and we all be a united people. 🕉

 

[ravneet_sb]

Ek Omkaar!
I worship the great sage Guru Nanak.

Dear brother, in materialism, there is authorship and clamor for “first” and “original”. In India, we did not spill blood over authorship. The richas of the vedas do not have the names of composing rishis, the great temples donot have names of artists, towns and cities are not named, “abdul abaad”, “krishnistaan”, etc. our religions too do not have names. Indians did not call it Hinduism. Even sanatana dharma is not a noun, but an adjective.

If you like, we can say Gurunanak is the original thinker. But he will say that that is not important. Wahe Guru will likely ask us to not split threads, but look at our intentions, and focus on actions.

Dear sir, you are WRONG in everything you say about the old religion. I say this with love and respect, and hope you will forgive my saying so. I am happy to give you specific and uncontroversial details on each of the points where you have misunderstood the old religion.

As Indians, the old and the new are both ours. Sikhism is our religion, Hinduism is our religion. A religion that divides is poison and a fake religion.

I hope India is inspired by the great Sikhs, and we all be a united people. 🕉

Dear Hersh,

As seeker bliss is WORD knowledge, may be wrong as little awareness of old is through saying, nit even reading.

So formed MIND speaks what is listened about old. Always open for corrections.

Thanks for making me aware.

 

[A_seeker]

The Sikh shabd might be “Aumkaar”. In Advait, shabd is equated to the immanent universe.

When Guru Nanak was asked by Siddhas Who is your Guru ?He replied SHABD GURU SURAT DHUN CHELA
So 'Shabd which Guru Nanak and KAbir speaks about is actually ONgkarr/Anahat/ANAHAD.