We are Sikhs not Jains, and we really should not concern ourselves with such triviality.
If you are really confused, Jhatka them!!
Sikhism On Bugs?
We are Sikhs not Jains, and we really should not concern ourselves with such triviality.
If you are really confused, Jhatka them!!
Shame about you friend dieing, but that Mosquito you killed maybe it could have spread Malaria to you and maybe another Human being?
No one knows. You did the just thing in that given situation, and I have to say I cannot reconcile myself with the Jain world view. They seem to place every form of life on this planet on the same plane as human life.
Bani is very specific in that it ONLY refers to Human life as precious. Not that we go around wantenly killing everything....but we take a perspective and keep things in balance.
With anything in Sikhism it is about your own conscience. I for example will kill flies and Mosquitos on the spot...dirty filthy creatures. Weras Ladybirds (Ladybugs), and Honeybee's I will never kill. The later are useful in killing aphids and pro-ducing Honey.
Archived_member14
SPNer
Ishna ji,
You may want to consider the following.
To be sentient is to have consciousness. With consciousness there must be perception / memory, feeling, volition, attention, thinking, and sometimes greed, hatred, ignorance, moral shame, generosity, wisdom, kindness, envy, miserliness, faith etc. I see the manifestations of some of these characteristics in fishes, lizards, flies, man, dogs, {censored}roaches and many other things. I can see even maggots deliberately moving in some chosen direction or crawl to get food just as I can move away from the sun and try to find something cool to drink.
Bacteria behave more like chemicals in chemical reactions, same with plants, as in a sunflower automatically moving to face the sun. I had mentioned plant cells, but also animal cells are *not* sentient. Unlike plant cells which are conditioned only by the element of heat, animals cells while still in the body, may be conditioned by nutritive essence and also karma and consciousness. However even this is all just “physical realities†and nothing to do with sentience.
With growing confidence in good, you know what needs to be done. You will not lie, steal or kill no matter what. The good and wise way in dealing with a situation will not involve any evil deed. We proliferate into thoughts and ideas which have nothing to do with the reality of the moment or any idea about good, but they appear to be so and we then feel justified in doing what we do. But know that this is exactly because ignorance and attachment is doing all the talking.
No one is allowing greater destruction by letting a pest fish go. Freeing a fish is freeing a fish; it is an act of kindness. If you find yourself in a situation like the one you described, there are other ways to deal with it which no doubt requires much effort. If nothing can be done, don’t involve yourself in the kind of activity. You don’t know what happens tomorrow and to whom, but killing is what you are doing now, and this can’t be good. Your fear with regard to what might happen to the environment is just that, fear.
Every living being, their happiness and unhappiness is dependent on their own karma. Let us not try to play the part of ‘world managers’, conceiving what has happened in the past, what is going on in the present and what might happen in the future, and be lead to actions that are clearly not beneficial in terms of the only relevant cause and effect law, namely good leads to good results and bad to bad results.
;-)
As human beings with the ability to think and plan as we do, we can wish our own death when faced with pain and hardship. This is craving for non-existence which is actually a species of the craving for existence. Animals don’t think like us so they only have craving for existence. No animal wishes to die no matter how much it is suffering. Besides again it is karma which decides what happens from moment to moment. The animal may not heal from a fatal wound, but who knows it may suddenly go on without feeling much pain and die peacefully….
Thanks for letting me know, I’d hate it if nothing what I said was useful.
You may want to consider the following.
To be sentient is to have consciousness. With consciousness there must be perception / memory, feeling, volition, attention, thinking, and sometimes greed, hatred, ignorance, moral shame, generosity, wisdom, kindness, envy, miserliness, faith etc. I see the manifestations of some of these characteristics in fishes, lizards, flies, man, dogs, {censored}roaches and many other things. I can see even maggots deliberately moving in some chosen direction or crawl to get food just as I can move away from the sun and try to find something cool to drink.
Bacteria behave more like chemicals in chemical reactions, same with plants, as in a sunflower automatically moving to face the sun. I had mentioned plant cells, but also animal cells are *not* sentient. Unlike plant cells which are conditioned only by the element of heat, animals cells while still in the body, may be conditioned by nutritive essence and also karma and consciousness. However even this is all just “physical realities†and nothing to do with sentience.
With growing confidence in good, you know what needs to be done. You will not lie, steal or kill no matter what. The good and wise way in dealing with a situation will not involve any evil deed. We proliferate into thoughts and ideas which have nothing to do with the reality of the moment or any idea about good, but they appear to be so and we then feel justified in doing what we do. But know that this is exactly because ignorance and attachment is doing all the talking.
No one is allowing greater destruction by letting a pest fish go. Freeing a fish is freeing a fish; it is an act of kindness. If you find yourself in a situation like the one you described, there are other ways to deal with it which no doubt requires much effort. If nothing can be done, don’t involve yourself in the kind of activity. You don’t know what happens tomorrow and to whom, but killing is what you are doing now, and this can’t be good. Your fear with regard to what might happen to the environment is just that, fear.
Every living being, their happiness and unhappiness is dependent on their own karma. Let us not try to play the part of ‘world managers’, conceiving what has happened in the past, what is going on in the present and what might happen in the future, and be lead to actions that are clearly not beneficial in terms of the only relevant cause and effect law, namely good leads to good results and bad to bad results.
;-)
As human beings with the ability to think and plan as we do, we can wish our own death when faced with pain and hardship. This is craving for non-existence which is actually a species of the craving for existence. Animals don’t think like us so they only have craving for existence. No animal wishes to die no matter how much it is suffering. Besides again it is karma which decides what happens from moment to moment. The animal may not heal from a fatal wound, but who knows it may suddenly go on without feeling much pain and die peacefully….
Thanks for letting me know, I’d hate it if nothing what I said was useful.
Archived_member14
SPNer
Seeker9 ji,
Yes, and I would like to express myself a little more even though you may not agree with me.
But it does in fact happen one moment at a time does it not?
My mention of kindness and compassion was made in context of the understanding about karma and it was this I wanted to highlight. I wrote also that pain and death is caused by one’s own karma. If I killed you, ‘I’ am not the cause of your death. I will reap the fruits of my own actions which may include being killed prematurely many, many times in future existences. However, the actual cause of your own death would be your own past deeds. This is the only real law of cause and effect existing here.
We know of people surviving murder attempts and we heard about those receiving the bullet intended for someone else. In the conventional world, including where the law has needs to be exercised, we say, such person killed such a person, or he drove the car and killed him, or the tsunami killed 20,000 people. But we can also say, that “things happenâ€, and with understanding see each and every phenomena that lead to the particular situation as involving a series of cause and effect, one in accordance with the way things truly are.
This is important because we are here talking about morality in order to understand what it really is and not just having a casual conversation. And the only way that this can be achieved is to focus on one reality at a time and not get caught up in some global idea about situations. To go by the latter is to risk moving further away from the possibility of the former ever happening. And we then end up going by ideals with no application of those ideals when the moment demands it. It gets worse when we then have to cover up our failures with yet more ideals. In the end it all becomes a game that we play with ourselves. We continue to tell ourselves that we are concerned about other people, but the truth is that it was about me, mine and I all the way through.
On the other hand if we take into consideration one moment at a time, it becomes obvious that good is good and should be encouraged and evil is evil and to be avoided. This way we do not have to talk ourselves into taking sides with anyone and build a situation in order to justify our preferences. This is not easy of course, since it can’t be made to happen by sheer force of will. And it is not about replacing one set of ideals with a new one. It depends on the development of understanding which happens very, very gradually, such that faith and confidence in good grows while at the same time seeing the harm in its opposite, namely evil. This latter includes the attachments that we have to family and friends for whose happiness we are ready to “fight†or even kill, but in the end it all comes down to the pleasant feelings that we derive from thinking about them.
Perhaps it is not about choosing to be kind to one and not to the other; it could be that the tendency to kindness exists but no real understanding of what it really is. It is in seeing the value of kindness that kindness arises regardless of whom and to what. The perception of other beings acts more as a reminder to develop the particular quality which one knows to be of value. Along with this is seeing harm in its opposite, namely ill-will, and this acts as a further motivation. Indeed one has to be wary of the near-enemy of kindness which is what we usually have towards those who are near and dear, and this is selfish-affection. Of the two, this latter is the more dangerous, since it comes across as good.
Yes, and I would like to express myself a little more even though you may not agree with me.
But it does in fact happen one moment at a time does it not?
My mention of kindness and compassion was made in context of the understanding about karma and it was this I wanted to highlight. I wrote also that pain and death is caused by one’s own karma. If I killed you, ‘I’ am not the cause of your death. I will reap the fruits of my own actions which may include being killed prematurely many, many times in future existences. However, the actual cause of your own death would be your own past deeds. This is the only real law of cause and effect existing here.
We know of people surviving murder attempts and we heard about those receiving the bullet intended for someone else. In the conventional world, including where the law has needs to be exercised, we say, such person killed such a person, or he drove the car and killed him, or the tsunami killed 20,000 people. But we can also say, that “things happenâ€, and with understanding see each and every phenomena that lead to the particular situation as involving a series of cause and effect, one in accordance with the way things truly are.
This is important because we are here talking about morality in order to understand what it really is and not just having a casual conversation. And the only way that this can be achieved is to focus on one reality at a time and not get caught up in some global idea about situations. To go by the latter is to risk moving further away from the possibility of the former ever happening. And we then end up going by ideals with no application of those ideals when the moment demands it. It gets worse when we then have to cover up our failures with yet more ideals. In the end it all becomes a game that we play with ourselves. We continue to tell ourselves that we are concerned about other people, but the truth is that it was about me, mine and I all the way through.
On the other hand if we take into consideration one moment at a time, it becomes obvious that good is good and should be encouraged and evil is evil and to be avoided. This way we do not have to talk ourselves into taking sides with anyone and build a situation in order to justify our preferences. This is not easy of course, since it can’t be made to happen by sheer force of will. And it is not about replacing one set of ideals with a new one. It depends on the development of understanding which happens very, very gradually, such that faith and confidence in good grows while at the same time seeing the harm in its opposite, namely evil. This latter includes the attachments that we have to family and friends for whose happiness we are ready to “fight†or even kill, but in the end it all comes down to the pleasant feelings that we derive from thinking about them.
Perhaps it is not about choosing to be kind to one and not to the other; it could be that the tendency to kindness exists but no real understanding of what it really is. It is in seeing the value of kindness that kindness arises regardless of whom and to what. The perception of other beings acts more as a reminder to develop the particular quality which one knows to be of value. Along with this is seeing harm in its opposite, namely ill-will, and this acts as a further motivation. Indeed one has to be wary of the near-enemy of kindness which is what we usually have towards those who are near and dear, and this is selfish-affection. Of the two, this latter is the more dangerous, since it comes across as good.
Adi Nanaki
SPNer
Yes, Yogi Bhajan, also known as the Siri Singh Sahib, referred to {censored}roaches this way many times over the years.
If he said eradicate them to help prevent disease being spread to humans, then I agree with him.peacesign
If he said leave them alone,then I do not.:motherlylove:
Randip ji
Later I found a transcribed lecture by Yogi Bhajan on the net. In the back of my mind it seemed he had said something about {censored}roaches...but I could not be sure. There have been many times when parts of his lectures have simply cracked me up. Though I disagree with much of his thinking these are the times when his humor simply throws a lasso around a truth. Then I am helpless with laughter. This was a good one. It answers your question.
I do not personally believe in transmigration of souls. It still cracks me up.
Later I found a transcribed lecture by Yogi Bhajan on the net. In the back of my mind it seemed he had said something about {censored}roaches...but I could not be sure. There have been many times when parts of his lectures have simply cracked me up. Though I disagree with much of his thinking these are the times when his humor simply throws a lasso around a truth. Then I am helpless with laughter. This was a good one. It answers your question.
I do not personally believe in transmigration of souls. It still cracks me up.
Ishna ji, with all due respect I do not understand this notion of Karma you are talking about.
In Sikhism our Guru's and other figures killed human beings. Surely in terms of Karma they would be condemened forever?
Also According to Bani, it places Mineral, Animal, Plants at the same level, so where has this hierarchy come from? Only Humans are seen as different:
Taken from Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh:
Adi Nanaki
SPNer
What he said is, it is okay to kill them, but unlike other creatures, if you do, not to chant Akal, for this will give them a human birth. It may be helpful to consider that all creatures have human souls. We work out karmas, and give blessings through many roles of our souls.
What?
Creatures have the same level of existence as a human being? Are you kidding me right?
I am sorry, I have never encountered anything like this in Sikhism.
On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:
ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Adi Nanaki
SPNer
Its funny, you read Guru's words and find disagreement with me. I read Guru's words and find he concurs with what I wrote--that YOU, a human soul, also incarnate as animals.
An aside. We don't have malaria here, so that wasn't an issue. However, I am very allergic to mosquito bites and 3 or 4 bites would be me in hospital.
Lilly and I had a 50 year "discussion" about our respective religions. She though I was just slightly barbaric and I thought she was downright silly. Still, we had a lot in common, most obviously, backbones of steel about our ways of life. I do respect all life, partly as a result of her influence, partly from my Dad and partly from my own inclination.
I kill when necessary, "necessary" as defined by me. I kill mosquitoes and {censored}roaches without a single qualm, I prefer to shoo flies outside, and kill them if they get annoying. Bees are a special case; they need our protection as a necessary part of our agriculture. Wasps are noxious and deserve whatever they get.
As I said I am a vegetarian, but I wouldn't hesitate to eat meat if it were a matter of health or survival. I'm a Sikh. not a Jain.
Actually, Lilly's death was very Jain. When she realised she was terminal, she retired to their cabin in the woods and simply stopped eating. I admit I do not understand, but I must respect her right to make her own decision. I was with her when she died. She died as she had lived, quietly, serenely.
She taught me to learn and to love while still disagreeing. A very valuable lesson.
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Dear Confused Ji
Thanks for elaborating further
I would like to offer some observations in reply:
I really don't know much about the workings of Karma but would hypothesise that in the unfortunate circumstance you were to put a double-barrel shot gun to my forehead and shoot, the chances of my survival would be slim indeed. This is on the basis of physiology and not Karma. I would
therefore suggest that Karma could account for you being in that position in the first place, perhaps as repayment of a karmic debt whereby I had done you a grave injustice in a former life. Just another interpretation...
That is one way of interpreting it. I would say I consult a moral compass and try and do what I think is right so I can be content that I did the right thing. Which is similar to what you said but without the implication of being conceited I think...
One's upbringing and education will impact on their individual moral compass ....
Okay, fair enough
Please elaborate as I do not understand this bit
Thanks
Thanks for elaborating further
I would like to offer some observations in reply:
I really don't know much about the workings of Karma but would hypothesise that in the unfortunate circumstance you were to put a double-barrel shot gun to my forehead and shoot, the chances of my survival would be slim indeed. This is on the basis of physiology and not Karma. I would
therefore suggest that Karma could account for you being in that position in the first place, perhaps as repayment of a karmic debt whereby I had done you a grave injustice in a former life. Just another interpretation...
I am focussing on this in particular as I have never been able to understand the concept of collective Karma. I would appreciate your views on this
That is one way of interpreting it. I would say I consult a moral compass and try and do what I think is right so I can be content that I did the right thing. Which is similar to what you said but without the implication of being conceited I think...
One's upbringing and education will impact on their individual moral compass ....
Okay, fair enough
Please elaborate as I do not understand this bit
Thanks
Doesnt the guru say.."jeeaan ka ahaar jee..........what scientists refer to as the food chain..........and also "is dhartee mehn teri sikdaree.....what the scientists say as ...human supreme head of the food chain. Man is at the top of the food chain....he can eat any and all other jees down the line and does.
- May 9, 2006
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Randip Singh ji, I was going with the notion of karma described by Confused as part of my discussion with them. I don't know much about karma, myself. I don't get into the mystical stuff too much -- I'm too much of a skeptic. I prefer logic and garden-variety good deeds. Whatever else happens is not up to me, I figure.
Confused ji, thanks for taking the time to respond. I can't give a good reply right now, except to say that, in the case of the river and the pest fish, the fish was introduced by humans 100-odd years ago so they could eat it. It is decimating the ecosystem of the river, making it impossible for the native fish to breed and survive. Personally, I think non-action is as detrimental to the soul as killing innocent critters. I'm not sure I agree with the idea regarding animals and death. They might only be able to conceive that they are in pain and they want to survive, but the human is able to conceive they are in pain and are going to die anyway so why not spare them further pain? That is called mercy and I value mercy very highly, personally.
Confused ji, thanks for taking the time to respond. I can't give a good reply right now, except to say that, in the case of the river and the pest fish, the fish was introduced by humans 100-odd years ago so they could eat it. It is decimating the ecosystem of the river, making it impossible for the native fish to breed and survive. Personally, I think non-action is as detrimental to the soul as killing innocent critters. I'm not sure I agree with the idea regarding animals and death. They might only be able to conceive that they are in pain and they want to survive, but the human is able to conceive they are in pain and are going to die anyway so why not spare them further pain? That is called mercy and I value mercy very highly, personally.
Please explain what you mean then in relation to this? No point making a statem,ent without an explanation.
This question of the morality and consequences of killing bugs has been on my mind also. As a rule, I am a live and let live kind of person. I have always protected spiders and other small beings from those who would want to harm them. My family knows this and we have jars with covers at hand in the summer when there are so many more of these ones in our home. I would even catch every mosquito that flew in and let it out the door. Then I would pray that it would quickly become an enlightened being in a future life. I did this for a number of years but then I became sick and I just wasn't able to chase down mosquitoes anymore. I don't feel comfortable allowing them to bite me so I started swatting at the ones that were trying to bite me. This was and is so difficult for me because they also belong to God. I do still catch them and let them go when I can manage it, but as "evolved beings" go, I'm not even close. I am fortunate that I live in Alaska where the mosquitoes (at this time) do not carry any diseases. I can't even imagine how this is handled in areas where a mosquito bite can mean serious illness or even death. I hope that I can do a seva for these small ones I do kill sometime in the future because it hurts me to hurt them.
The Sikh view on Bugs is very simple.
It's not about Karma....because if we start going down that route we start going down the realms of the caste system.
It's not about insects having human souls.
It's not about guilt.
It's about at any given moment doing the Just thing. For the Mosquito, it is doing what it is programmed to do. It tries to bite you or enter your protective space and you kill it, it is of no consequence to a Sikh.
Sikhi places animals, minerals and plants all on the same level and humans on one level above. We think nothing of destroying bacteria and killing plants yet we seem to have this dilema over insects and animals.
People need to start studing Sikhism instead of mixing it up with Jainism and Hinduism and other faiths.gingerteakaur
Dear RandipJi,
Thank you for replying to my post. I know that I am a product of too many Paths. I have studied so many religions at this point that they all seem to run into each other. That is truly the problem. I've studied religion to the point of weariness. Spiritual weariness. If I am to be a Sikh then I do need to study this more closely as I am ignorant.
Thank you again Randip SinghJi
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