Sikh's Purpose

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Truth Seeker and Amarpal Ji!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

I am responding to you both together because you both gave me good directions and knowledge to explore the religious concept of Sikhism. Wahe Guru always Bless you Both.

A. Dear Truth Seekerji!

Your conclusion “So, may I draw a conclusion that there is no evil in this world, since, according to your belief, God lives in all? “ is hundred percent right, according to my knowledge. We always say “there is nothing good or bad, but only thinking makes it so.”

Your second question: What causes people to behave wickedly, sin, and reject God then?

I give a simple example in this regard. When somebody snatch a toy from a small child, he cannot take it back because he is not that strong. But it leaves a sense of revolt inside him and when he grows, this revolt incite him to snatch things from others (because he was sufferer of the same attitude). So bad people are not born. All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all. I have seen small kids playing together and they never thought about their caste, creed, color or religion. Here, I may mention that sometimes, I feel that religion is also a trademark given by our parents like manufacturers give name to their products. You see every producer claim his product is the best and we buy them by their name or trademark although they are made of the same material. This is only my assumption. As I am not a highly learned person, your guidance will help me to understanding better.

B. Dear Amarpalji!

I am happy that your views are similar to mine on most the points. As your study and knowledge is more than me, you may be right in your conclusion about the Rebirth. I have not reached at that stage where I can visualise my previous birth and what I will be in my next birth. Please keep me enlightened with your thoughts which I always admire. I have one question, and I will appreciate your views on that.

As we know Bala and Mardana were always with Guru Nanak Devji. My question is: What happened to them at the later stage when Guru Nanak Devji gave Gurgadi to Guru Angad Devji. Were they alive at that time and if so, where they were. I couldn’t find an answer about that.

Secondly, we also see the picture of them together with Guru Nanak Devji i.e. Guru Nanak Devji sitting under a big tree wearing a Cap (Topi) and Bala and Mardana sitting on both sides and a cage with parrot hanging above on the tree.

Some people argue that Guru Nanak used to wear a cap instead of turban and they say as Guru Nanak Devji travelled far and wide - (I don’t know what was the mode of travel), if he had a turban, he might have a big pack of clothes, somebody carrying for them. Our historian write about the events either on assumptions or from a few facts, they find from here or there. I need your help me to understand it better.

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Amarjit,

I read your post and felt like a person, who after drinking water, remains thirsty!

Anyhow, I found your answer quite vague. Allow me to drill-in further to get to the depth of this matter.

You see, your theology, does not distinguish between good and evil. As you stated – "All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all." Granted! However, there comes a stage in a child’s life, i.e., adulthood, when he or she becomes responsible for his or her actions. Even parents discipline their children if and when required. In the same way, if we accept that God is our creator, than as the Creator, like responsible parents, He is obliged to hold us accountable for our actions that cause His other children grief and sorrow. One cannot be excused of a brutish behaviour because as a child, he or she was born "pure, innocent, and well wishers of all." If one was to follow your theology, no criminal is responsible for his or her actions, including murderers, thieves, rapists, etc., etc., they are all product of the circumstances!!!

Now, both, Amarpal and yourself, mentioned Jesus’ words about the way to God being a narrow one. But if we consider your theology then the way to God seems quite wide with everyone has access to Him regardless of one’s conduct and actions in life. I do not know how you can justify no accountability for evil deeds.

Having said this, I would like to share with you a set of verses, which was pointed out to me, that I found quite telling and drove a message home:

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands…he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us…we should not think that divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man (Jesus) he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead. (Acts 17:24-31, The Holy Bible)

There has to be justice in God’s court, and since all humans are alike, we are all guilty of one sin or another, at some point, in our adult life. We might not be guilty toward another person, but stand guilty before God because He knows our sins that might be hidden from others. Since, before God, the entire mankind is guilty, God has to either forgive us all or, punish us all. And, that is, for God to decide. After observing various theologies, so far, I found Jesus, as the only entity, who offers redemption to the sinful mankind because he paid the price for the sins of mankind. Once the question of mankind’s sinfulness is settled, the union with God, I believe, is elementary because it is SIN that separates us from God not the physical body.

Regards
Truth Seeker

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Amarjit Jee,

In the book written by Dr Gopal Singh 'History of Sikh People' he expresses doubts whether Bala the said Hindu companion was with his all the time or not. From the literature the author- Dr Gopal Singh Jee -had studied he is convinced that Mardana was all the time was with him. I am in agreement with Dr Sahib, The basis of my indepentent, but identicla conclusion I give below.

Enroute to cylone Guru Nanak Dev Jee had passed through Rameshwaram. Guru Sahib had stayed there for some time. This is a historic fact and is recorded in Govt. records. The Raja of that area had donated 22 acre of land to Guru Sahib close to temple. It is along the railway track between Pamban bridge and the temple ( this land has been handed over to Singh Sabha). Guru Sahib had stayed in a sarai there. Today, there is a Gurdwara there. When this Gurdwara was under construction, I had the chance to go there. In the extension to the sarai, on the stone wall I saw a carving. The central figure resembeled Guru Nanak. Only one individual was shown to be sitting by his side with Rabab. I take this to be Mardana. Which tells me that only mardana was with him on his travels to and from cylon and bala was not with him else he too would have appeared in the carving. This might have been the case for his other travels also, which Dr Sahib has detaied in his book.

This is in resopnse to the sentance in your post that Bala and Mardana were with Guru Sahib.

Amarjit Jee, I donot know what happened to Bala or Mardana after Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee departed.

Guru Nanak Dev Jee had been changing the type of his robe. He has worn almost all types of robe. Dress did not matter to him. So, I cannot say any thing on cap or turban.

My suggestion is that let those who want to argue on the dress of Guru Sahib waste there energies, it is their prerogative. For us, what Guru Sahib said is important, spirituality is contained in his sayings, that is the real gift to us from Guru Sahib.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal

P.S. Even on rebirth, I do not spend much time thinking over it. If it is not there it is fine, if it is there I cannot change the law. What is most important that in this life we plant good roots. Discussions on rebirth are subjects of intellectual curiosity, the knowledge of it does not contribute to spirituality, towards which we all strive.

 

[etinder]

a fantastic debate..

I just want to add that religion is not the end but the means to facilitate the journey of a human's spirituality

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Truth Seeker!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

These are my personal views that "All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all". It may not be a universal truth. Your views can be different as everybody has his own ideology or thinking, in life.

Now I have one question. As you said, “After observing various theologies, so far, I found Jesus, as the only entity, who offers redemption to the sinful mankind because he paid the price for the sins of mankind.” My question is: What are your views about the sacrifice of Guru Arjan Devji, Guru Teghbahadurji, and many others about whom we say in our Ardas “Bandband Katwai, Arian Nal Cheerae Gai”. Were they sacrificed for selfish motto or for redemption to the sinful mankind? Your views will enlightened me better.

I agree with you as you said, “Once the question of mankind’s sinfulness is settled, the union with God, I believe, is elementary because it is SIN that separates us from God not the physical body.” I also think that if there is no SIN, there is no need to search for the God. I believe that man is born not to commit the SIN, it is the society and circumstances which make and compel him so to do so. This again, is my personal thinking.

One more question. What is your answer if I say “Religion is a very profitable business with minimum investment.” Guru Nanak Devji started a religion (Sikhism) based on “Garibi” (poverty) and always stood by the poor and neglected class of people. But now, it has become one of the richest religion in the world. I will appreciate your views.

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt anybody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!
Amarjit Singh

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Amarjit,

You asked, "What are your views about the sacrifice of Guru Arjan Devji, Guru Teghbahadurji, and many others about whom we say in our Ardas “Bandband Katwai, Arian Nal Cheerae Gai”. Were they sacrificed for selfish motto or for redemption to the sinful mankind?"

You have raised a question that I have been pondering over for quite some time. Here's my take in regard to your question, please bear with me as I set the background for my answer: All over the world there are ethnic groups, religious communities, and political groups, who have been subjected to adverse policies, face unbearable hardship and heavy loss of life for their beliefs and ideologies. Hitler's hatred killed over six million Jews; ethnic violence between Serbs and Croatians, Tutsis and Hutus killed over two million people; Political views and religion killed millions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and Cambodia; to a large extent this is happening even today. Thousands of people lost their lives in New York in 2001, thousands more innocents have died and are dying in Afghanistan and Iraq in the name of religion due to Islamic Jihadis and Christian fundamentalist with political ambitions. By now you might have started to wonder as to where am I heading? Well, I was trying to create a historic background in line with events that are taking place in our time. With the help of current volatile circumstances, I will try to put in perspective the sacrifice Gurus and other Sikhs made. Now, I have read about lot of heroic acts and sacrifices made by people, a lot of them lost their life; who were among the Jews, Serbs, Croatians, New Yorkers, Cambodians, Russians, Iraqis, etc. I have read that there were even some Hindus and Muslims who risked their lives (I don't know if anyone lost their life) and protected Sikhs during 1984 riots. Most of these people can easily be described as brave, kind, humble, and a lot more for their actions and deeds. Furthermore, in the human history, there are innumerable individual stories from all over the world, where people have sacrified their lives for loved ones, friends, communities, and religion. Soldiers have been sacrificing their lives for their countries for centuries. However, to this date, I have yet to be told about a sacrifice, except that of Jesus, which was planned thousand of years ahead, made known to people in advance, and carried out with such detail in line with the prophecy and scriptures that it defies any unbelief. The sacrifice made by Gurus was forced upon them by circumstances; furthermore, the truth is that the Gurus and other Sikhs, who sacrificed their lives, did it for their beliefs; their religion; and their community. The sacrifice of Jesus was for the sins of the mankind, not for a specific group of people or for a specific religion. "For this is my blood... which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28, the Holy Bible) Since the entire mankind is tainted with sin, Jesus' sacrifice touches every human, whereas Gurus did sacrifice their lives but NOT for anyone's sin.

“Religion is a very profitable business with minimum investment.” Guru Nanak Devji started a religion (Sikhism) based on “Garibi” (poverty) and always stood by the poor and neglected class of people. But now, it has become one of the richest religion in the world."

Actually, you have exposed a very telling truth that lot of religions, not only Sikhism, have some explaining to do. I have seen money overtaking compassion, even in Christianity and Islam. We have the Catholic Church, which I call a sect of Christianity, spending millions to keep the Pontiff comfortable, while millions starve all over the world. Islamic Jihadis are quite happy to spend millions on arms to kill the infidels. In Sikhism, Gurdwaras are being built in close proximity and with caste affiliations that create political/caste in-fights and are in local papers all the time for wrong reasons. I like to believe that the Langar service started by Guru Nanak was not only to advocate equality among people but also, to feed the poor. However, I have yet to see Sikhs as a community or from a religious duty reaching out, like Christian organizations, to feed the hungry and clothe the needy, and this not just for fellow Sikhs but also for people regardless of their religious beliefs. But I must admit, I was dumbfounded to be told about the Gurdwara politics, which is apparently prevalent all over the world; sadly politics to some extent is present in all religious institutes. I have learnt, that in Gurdwaras, it is often related to either money or caste. Today, it is unfortunate that financial richness seems more desirable than spiritual richness, which in turn could make us all more compassionate towards the needy in our society. At this point, I would like to quote a verse, which seems very apt - "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Matthew 16:26, the Holy Bible)

Rgds
Truth Seeker

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Amarjit Jee,

As I understand, my Karmas, including sins are not transferable. I have to pay for it. True, the christian priests tell that Jesus sacrificed his life for others and they offer redemption on behalf of Jesus, it is up to you to accept it or not. I do not buy it, so the question of applying it to our Guru Sahib does not arise.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Amarpal,

You stated, “The Christian priests tell that Jesus sacrificed his life for others and they offer redemption on behalf of Jesus.”

From my understanding about Christianity, the views you have tendered above are according to Catholicism, which are often not necessarily in line with Christian faith as a whole, especially when considered from the Bible’s standpoint.

The Catholic Church teaches that - "For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished'" (Vatican Council II, p. 1).

This view does not seem to be biblical and certainly not shared by other Christian denominations. The most agreed upon view on redemption is that it was a one-time act, which was completed when Jesus died on the cross. And the Bible tends to agree with this view, which can be construed from the following verse:
"… He (Jesus) entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:12, the Holy Bible)

Priests (Catholic or whoever) cannot offer redemption on Jesus’ behalf. According to the Bible, Jesus, himself, is declared a priest, "You are a priest forever…" (Hebrews 7:17, the Holy Bible)

If one follows bible based Christian theology, it can be seen that there is no need for a human priest to offer redemption because the work of redemption was completed in Christ, once-for-all. A human priest has no role to play as the Bible states "…Because Jesus lives for ever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore, he is able to save forever those who come to God through him because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24, the Holy Bible)

Rgds
Truth Seeker

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Truth Seeker Jee,

I am some what familiar with the New Testament and old testament. I have read it only once just to get familarised. I have not read it very seriously and hence will not enter into any detailed discussion on it. Why I have not studied it seriously,I will share with you; this I am doing so that you have the background.

1. Unlike Siri Guru Granth Sahib, Bible was not compiled during the life time of Jesus. There is no clue available as to the text written during the life time of Jesus, which provide the source for the compilation. What I learn from Chritian priests is that at that time it was the word of mouth and so written text of the time of Jesus is not available. It is difficult for me to accept, because recording the events was part of culture in those areas from the times of pyramides.

Bible has been compiled after about 80 years or more after the passing away of Jesus. This leaves lots of scope for errors, hence I do not consider Bible to be authenticated version of teachings of Jesus.

2. Jesus's life is known till he was 12 years old. Then it is known from when he became 30 years old till he was put on cross at the age of 33.

Why nothing is known about his 18 years of real life i.e. between 12 and 30 years of age is surprising to me. It creates lots of doubts in my mind. There is not enough transparancy here. These 18 years of Jesus's life are most important, which as not known to us, it is during this period that he became what he was. Why it is not known, I am searching for answer.

This is not a reply to you post, but my reason for not participating on this issue in this thread.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Truth Seeker and Amarpal Ji!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

I am responding again to both of you together because you both gave me good knowledge about Sikhism as well as Christianity. Wahe Guru always Bless you Both.

My desire is to know, “How can we achieve the divinity?” My point of view was not to explore the superiority or inferiority of any religion. All religion were started with good purpose and intention. But with the time, all religions became business organizations. Heads of those organizations started selling their teachings to the masses by promoting their qualities. This is 100 percent my views and I don’t force anybody to agree with it.

When I was in college about 40 years ago, there was a chapter about British History in our History Book that Pope started selling tickets to the Heaven. So I don’t know whether these religions are for salvation or to make money. Your guidance with help me to understand it better.

Secondly, when I said that "All kids are born alike - they are pure, innocent and well wishers of all". I meant that, if you keep all kids together at the time of their birth, can anybody tell who belongs to what religion? I doubt, if anybody can tell. It is the parents who give them names and after that, they belong to the different group of society, divided by the religion. What I think is, it is the trademarks given to these children by their parents according to their religious beliefs.

Thirdly, I think the religion is the main cause of all hatred among the people. Instead of promoting to be a good human being, it divides the people in different groups and instead of promoting brotherhood they spread, to some extent, hatred and kill each other in the name of religion.

What are your views please?

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!
Amarjit Singh

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Amarpal,

If you wish to explore further please check the web for Masoretic Text, Septuagint, Theodotion, Vulgate, Taragums, and Juxta Hebraice. For brief summary or some details, see the following URLs:
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html
http://www-personal.buseco.monash.edu.au/~hyndman/bible/lrbe/chapter3.pdf
http://www.christianstudycenter.com

Dear Amarjit,

You are quite right to point out that religion to quite an extent is main cause of hatred among people. Religion somehow seems to bring the worst out of people. I noticed in the Bible that Jesus called the religious authorities of his time – hypocrites, blind guides, whitewashed tombs, snakes, and brood of vipers – for not practising what they preach! (Matthew 23, the Holy Bible)

Religion today has taken a “mob-mentality“ which has only one purpose in mind – destruction of mankind. Religion, instead of uniting mankind to God, is building a wall of separation. I believe it is high time that we put the focus back on God, away from religion.
Now, the million dollar question is, how do you get to know God without religion?

We must look to someone who knows God intimately to a degree where there is no ambiguity as to person’s spiritual nature.

Are Ten Gurus God?
Is Mohammad God?
Is Gautam Buddha God?
Is Jesus God?
Etc. Etc.

I guess, it is an individual journey for each and every one of us to find the truth. I do not believe that uniting with God is the destination, but a beginning of a new life in eternity.


Rgds
Truth Seeker

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Truth Seeker !

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

I guess you understood me better. Your views are similar to mine as you said:

“Religion today has taken a “mob-mentality“ which has only one purpose in mind – destruction of mankind. Religion, instead of uniting mankind to God, is building a wall of separation. I believe it is high time that we put the focus back on God, away from religion..........

Are Ten Gurus God?
Is Mohammad God?
Is Gautam Buddha God?
Is Jesus God?
Etc. Etc.”

My answer, to your questions, is that none of he above were God but they tried to show the right paths and directions, which lead to realize the God. But, as human being is a very clever social animal, he instead of confronting the views of the Gurus, Mohammad, Buddha and Jesus, started selling their gospels and teachings for his own benefit and profit.

I think, there is no God in Church, Gurudwara, or any other religious places because people, who control them, are far away from the God. There is a saying: “Nearer the Church farther from the God”. God is not a criminal, who is confined to the four walls of a building, He is omnipresent and is everywhere – only one needs the eyes to see Him or realize Him which only our Gurus, Mohammad, Gautam Buddha and Jesus had.

Guru Nanak said: “Kirt Kar, Naam Jap and Wand Chhak.” If a man has these three qualities,. I think, he is nearer to God although he may have any dress i.e. either he wears a turban or not, or he wears a particular dress or not. Our religious leaders preach that if we have a particular dress, only then, we will achieve salvation but they never think that man is born naked and will not take anything with him after death.

What are your views please?

With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartedly apologize for that.

Thanks
Pul Chuk Maf!
Amarjit Singh

 

[Neutral Singh]

Dear Amarjit,

I agree with you that God is not confined to the four walls of Gurdwara, Church, Mosque, Mandir, or whatever! In fact, I believe, if and when, we visit any Church, Gurdwara, Mosque, etc. we are supposed to bring God with us, (or, in us) the designated place is just for a gathering of like minded people who share the same belief. Somehow, over time, a religious building in itself became house-of-God, which is very unfortunate.

I read in the Bible that God says, “be holy because I am holy”. Which makes lot of sense because a Church or a Gurdwara does not make a person holy, does it? It is what we reflect in our character, behaviour, and deeds that matters most. However, I believe that ultimately no amount of good deeds can make us holy that can equate us to God’s level. This is because of sin. “All our good works are like filthy rags before God,” says the Bible. I wonder why? Then I learnt from my own experience that our good deeds are always done with a motive, which can vary from person to person. But one thing is for sure, that human can never do good deeds in a natural sense, meaning without motive regardless how noble, because of SIN. Sin in human nature has to be addressed.

Guru Nanak’s command to “Kirt Kar, Naam Jap and Wand Chhak” is fine and noble but does not address the sin problem of human nature. People can remember God daily, as most religious people do; people can perform good works, as some religious people do; people can share their belongings, as few religious people do; BUT sin remains. It is almost as if sin is in human blood and we cannot get rid of it? The Bible says there is not a human being born who is without sin, except Jesus. That’s what I find most intriguing and leads me to delve into - what makes Jesus without sin, which in turn enables him to forgive us our sins?

I agree with you that religion cannot provide us salvation because I believe, that is God’s work, an act of grace on his part, which we receive undeservedly. But the question is why?

Rgds
Truth Seeker

 

[Mr §ingh]

Singh - why don't u just give the link?!?

 

[Neutral Singh]

Ha! Ha!! I knew somebody would surely ask this... the discussion is going on at SGPC.NET... actaully the thing is that in sgpc duscussion forum this is the only thread with immense value and sooner or later a sgpc admin would come and delete all the messages randomly and this discussion too would be lost forever... i am a great admirer of Amarpal ji's writings and did not want this fascinating discussion destroyed. I am simply preserving it for future reference for you and for my benefit.

I hope nobody minds...