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Sukhmani Sahib Astpadi 1 Sabad 6 / ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ੧ ਸਬਦ ੬

Aug 28, 2010
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AMBARSARIA Ji.
You are grossly mistaken when you say that the Rules are created by Prakash Bagga .
You yourself seem to ignore the significance of matras provided by GuRu Arjan Dev ji himself.
What is wrong in understanding grammatical indications of GuRu ji.?You give me even a single example where i write differently from Gurmukhi script of Gurbani.I am prepared to look into this mistake of mine. and if so can rectify myself without any hitch.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

BhagatSingh

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Ambarsaria ji,
Jap means to chant and meditate. Whether it is a noun or a verb hardly makes a difference (Chant and Meditation?).
Chant and meditate on what? That which was True, is True, will remain True.

(ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ) ਸ਼ਬਦ
Even Prof Saab is adding in brackets "of Guru". And you know in Eastern culture Guru's word is that of God. It is considered very sacred. Even the sound and the written words are considered highly sacred. You will never have people in India simply throw paper with Gurbani written on it, into the garbage, they will cremate it instead (as fas as I know... my household and close relatives doesn't).
Even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji it says "know Guru and God to be the one and the same." Guru is as connected to God as one can be. He has become a form of God (Rab roop *cough*avatar*cough*). this is reflected in Punjabi language, where Guru Nanak is referred to as Satguru, a word we also use to mean God. A Guru's Words are very sacred and profound.

If nothing else, the more sacred one believes them to be, the more likely one is to consider them and reflect on them.

ਚਿੱਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਕਦੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਖਿਆਲ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ?
You forgot this part. Chit = consciousness or awareness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cit_(consciousness)
The translation is "have you ever brought this into awareness?"
Of course, "khayal" begins with thought but if you go deeper and deeper thought cannot sustain it. I know from personal experience. What, we as Sikhs, are supposed to be having "khayals" about is too vast for "khayals". Although "khayals" can grab small chunks of it for analysis, they cannot grab the entire thing.

Chit/ Awareness can. Simran is the development of these faculties, faculties of "Chit".

I wrote more but this is enough for now.
 
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Ambarsaria

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AMBARSARIA Ji.
You are grossly mistaken when you say that the Rules are created by Prakash Bagga .
You yourself seem to ignore the significance of matras provided by GuRu Arjan Dev ji himself. (I know my post was meant to bring out a response. Respectfully your response is nonsense. Read my complete answer below *.)
What is wrong in understanding grammatical indications of GuRu ji.?You give me even a single example where i write differently from Gurmukhi script of Gurbani.I am prepared to look into this mistake of mine. and if so can rectify myself without any hitch.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your comment.

* Just to let you know I don't ignore anything. I read Prof. Sahib Singh ji's, Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji any time I do a translation. I review and then present my. Most of the time it is coincident with Prof. Sahib Singh ji (Without some of the quoted material in brackets as appropriate) excising if the words use is excessive versus a tuk. Same for Bhai Manmohan Singh ji. Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji is most if not always a literal of Bhai Manmohan Singh ji with emphasis on "Chanting", "Name", "Meditation", "God", "Ambroisial Nectar", "Soul Bride", as examples. Most of such has no basis in tuks under consideration. It is a style liked by some and does not imply wrong intent. It so happens I don't have affinity for this style. Considering all of this, which I have stated in many posts and responses, you believe what you do then I am guilty as charged by you.

Be courteous and read people's posts and comment in completeness. I posted three questions and answers. At least specifically comment on those. I really don't need your generalizations.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Aug 28, 2010
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AMBARSARIA Ji,
You know very well there is deviation of understanding .I see no point in playing Ping Pong game .I may restrict myself to present any views.As such I realise I dont have much to contribute to the Sangat.So I must keep mum..as Silence is Gold sometimes.
You may continue the way you feel comfortable according to your understanding which I always appreciate in style.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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Prakash.S.Bagga ji and Bhagat Singh ji, I posted three questions and answers in the following thread,

(http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhm...i-sahib-astpadi-1-sabad-6-a-4.html#post158346)

These were all in context of quoted tuks/word from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Do you agree or disagree and be specifically so in the context of the above post. Brothers, read carefully, these are not even my translation and it is not a question of me coloring these.


================== QUESTION 1=================
ਜਪੁ
"ਜਪੁ" ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੈ। (Prof. Sahib Singh ji)
Chant And Meditate: (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji)

Question 1. "Chant And Meditate"!, where does this come from?
How can a name be translated into arbitrary verbs in this case;
1. Chant;
2. Meditate

Answer. You cannot!

=================== QUESTION 2 ==================
ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God. (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji)

Question 2. "the Word of God” ;
Where is “Word of God”stated in the Tuk/Sentence?

Answer:
Nowhere

========================== QUESTION 3 ==================
ਤਿਨ ਕਵਣੁ ਖਲਾਵੈ ਕਵਣੁ ਚੁਗਾਵੈ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿਆ ੩॥

Question 3:
How is ਸਿਮਰਨੁ translated by the three translator’s?

1. thought of
(Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji)
2.
ਖਿਆਲ ਕੀਤਾ (Bhai Manmohan Singh ji)
3.
ਧਿਆਨ (Prof. Sahib Singh ji)
Observation: Is their coincidence of translation?
Yes, they all three translate/interpret the same way.

Repeating question 3 below,

Question 3: How is ਸਿਮਰਨੁ translated by the three translator’s?

Answer: 3A. Yes: ਸਿਮਰਨੁ is translated rightfully as the action “of thinking”, “of contemplating” (All three sources)
Answer 3B. No: ਸਿਮਰਨੁ is not of “repeating”, “murmuring” (Corollary, Ambarsaria says in this tuk the context is as in 3A and not 3B)
============================================================

I always review context in all translations and use the three sources appropriately. I do not create any rules of my own.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Tejwant Singh

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AMBARSARIA Ji.
You are grossly mistaken when you say that the Rules are created by Prakash Bagga .
You yourself seem to ignore the significance of matras provided by GuRu Arjan Dev ji himself.
What is wrong in understanding grammatical indications of GuRu ji.?You give me even a single example where i write differently from Gurmukhi script of Gurbani.I am prepared to look into this mistake of mine. and if so can rectify myself without any hitch.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Time and again, I have proved you that every post you write, you concoct your grammAr rules in a different manner. I have challenged you many times whenever you have contradicted yourself with your grammAr rules, then you keep quiet and put your head back in the sand.

Your grammAr is of your invention from your mind. I have shown you with the Shabads posted by me that contradict your grammAr rules.

Perhaps that is the reason you keep mum when challenged which has become your second nature.

As requested to you from the very beginning, please do not give any grammAtical rules again and again but interpret the whole Shabads that you find faults in grammAtically so that all of us can learn from your wisdom.

Till today you have not done that. You have not even given us the interpretation of one single Shabad with your grammAr rules. One wonders why!

This can only prove that you make things up as you go which is an insult to Gurbani and to our Gurus.

You have a lot to offer but not just writing lagah, mataras of the Shabad but to interpret the whole Shabad and teach us about it but for some strange reason you have refused to do that which is a shame because doing SEVA is the cornerstone of Sikhi.

Hope you change your mind because your SEVA is needed here.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Prakash.S.Bagga ji and Bhagat Singh ji, I posted three questions and answers in the following thread,

(http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhm...i-sahib-astpadi-1-sabad-6-a-4.html#post158346)

These were all in context of quoted tuks/word from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Do you agree or disagree and be specifically so in the context of the above post. Brothers, read carefully, these are not even my translation and it is not a question of me coloring these.


================== QUESTION 1=================
ਜਪੁ
"ਜਪੁ" ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੈ। (Prof. Sahib Singh ji)
Chant And Meditate: (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji)

Question 1. "Chant And Meditate"!, where does this come from?
How can a name be translated into arbitrary verbs in this case;
1. Chant;
2. Meditate
Answer. You cannot!

The word JAPu is NOUN.The appropriate english word seems to be MURMUR
which is NOUN as well as VERB
Prakash.s.Bagga

=================== QUESTION 2 ==================
ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God. (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji)

Question 2. "the Word of God” ;
Where is “Word of God”stated in the Tuk/Sentence?

Answer: Nowhere

There is no question of any reference like GOD in Gurbani.In Grbani SABADu itself is refered as GuRoo,
Further in Gurbani there is no reference like the Word of GOD.The correct reference is GuR Ka SABADu or THE WORD OF GuR.

Prakash.S.Bagga
========================== QUESTION 3 ==================
ਤਿਨ ਕਵਣੁ ਖਲਾਵੈ ਕਵਣੁ ਚੁਗਾਵੈ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿਆ ੩॥

Question 3: How is ਸਿਮਰਨੁ translated by the three translator’s?

1. thought of (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji)
2. ਖਿਆਲ ਕੀਤਾ (Bhai Manmohan Singh ji)
3. ਧਿਆਨ (Prof. Sahib Singh ji)
Observation: Is their coincidence of translation? Yes, they all three translate/interpret the same way.

Repeating question 3 below,

Question 3: How is ਸਿਮਰਨੁ translated by the three translator’s?

Answer: 3A. Yes: ਸਿਮਰਨੁ is translated rightfully as the action “of thinking”, “of contemplating” (All three sources)
Answer 3B. No: ਸਿਮਰਨੁ is not of “repeating”, “murmuring” (Corollary, Ambarsaria says in this tuk the context is as in 3A and not 3B)

SIMRAN is the reference of ACTION OF A WORD OF PRAISE (NAMU) taking place of its own.As SIMRAN is possible even in the Womb stage where is the understanding or intelligence or intellect involved in SIMRAN.?

Prakash.S.Bagga
============================================================

I always review context in all translations and use the three sources appropriately. I do not create any rules of my own.

Sat Sri Akal.

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I have given answers to the three questions as per my understanding.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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Veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your answers. Let us look at them.
The word JAPu is NOUN.The appropriate english word seems to be MURMUR
which is NOUN as well as VERB
Prakash.s.Bagga
Why you want to "Murmur" as the young generation will understand murmur to be as follows,

MURMUR definition ==> A soft, indistinct sound made by a person or group of people speaking quietly or at a distance.

Also, are you suggesting that instead of Guru Nanak in translations, one should translate that into a possible verb,etc., or other construct? Perhaps you can give me the meaning of Guru Nanak that I should use instead of a name!
There is no question of any reference like GOD in Gurbani.In Grbani SABADu itself is refered as GuRoo,
Further in Gurbani there is no reference like the Word of GOD.The correct reference is GuR Ka SABADu or THE WORD OF GuR. Prakash.S.Bagga
We have agreed many times that there is reference to "creator" and I am OK with that versus "God".
SIMRAN is the reference of ACTION OF A WORD OF PRAISE (NAMU) taking place of its own.
In this sabad a "Koonj's/Bird's" state of mind is illustrated. So the "Koonj/Bird" is thinking or doing "Simran" or praisning God/creator? If I were a "Koonj/Bird" I think I will think just as we think of "children" in different situations. The answer to this supposition of the "Koonj/Bird" is not in this tuk but what follows, hence praise can't happen till we know the answer to a question? What you think?

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Jap means to chant and meditate. Whether it is a noun or a verb hardly makes a difference (Chant and Meditation?).
Chant and meditate on what?

You still have not given me the word equal to meditation as requested from the SGGS, our only Guru. I am still waiting for that as I am waiting for the URLS of your responses that you claimed you responded to my queries in and many other queries I have asked.

Please do that, so we can learn from each other and what does Chant mean? You have not responded to that either.

That which was True, is True, will remain True.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

In Sikhi, there is no Absolute Truth as it is considered in the Abrahamical religions but Truth is Absolute in Sikhi.

That which was True, is True,

All the continents were together once which was True then. Are they joint together now? The answer is NO. So, what is the Truth nowaccording to your interpretation of Jap?

will remain True.
What will remain True? Please give details with the help of SGGS, our only Guru.

In Sikhi, Truth is very fluid. Sikhi did not stop in time like all other religions did. Hence, there is no Absolute Truth in Sikhi. Absolute Truth means we do not need time and space as any reference to what surrounds us because Absolute Truth has stopped in time, which we know is a fallacy.

If that were the case then Guru Nanak would not let us know that the Universe is ever expanding in Jap. Talking about Jap, please read my question to Taranjeet Singh ji and if you have a response, please share with us. I am still waiting for the response from him.

What the first pauri of Jap "Aad Sach, Jugad Sach, Habie Sach,NANAK hossi bi Sach" means is that we should keep an open mind when we discover new things in life.

We all know that new Planets are formed and many get sucked up in the black hole all the times. These are the Wow and Awe factors that we are able to witness many years later.

If what you wrote were true, then according to you, Guru Nanak was wrong which we know is not the case.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

BhagatSingh

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Ambarsaria ji,
1. Disagree (with the answers). Jap is a verb and a noun.
(Chant is both a noun and a verb BTW)

2. Disagree. Shabad in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji always means God's Word.

3. Agree. Yes, all talk about contemplation. 1. 2. 3. are also present in repeating, in Naam Japna, in repetition.*
ਧਿਆਨ - is to concentrate. Hence why it is translated into meditation often. Obviously nothing can be done without concentration but more specifically Dhyan (meditation) means to go deeper into one's being (whether one is thinking or not).

*To think about about something often will naturally lead to repetition. You will think and rethink about a number of things over and over again, you are in repetition. If you are thinking about God alone then lots of repetition will take place.

Now it doesn't always happen. Only happens under the right conditions when you have gone really deep into contemplation, you eventually see your own repetitive thought process and find you have nothing more to think about as you have thought as far as human mind allows, and you have thought about every aspect of it that you could possibly think about. You exhaust your thoughts. You find that further thought is simply unnecessary (as you have "been there done that") and even compulsive, since you are so used to it, you want to do it more! You start thinking again. You find that at this point you cannot help but repeat those earlier thoughts, since you have already thought about everything. Progression through thought has becomes impossible. Your thoughts are not new anymore.

You either continue thinking, or you stop. At this point, again it does not always happen, and only happens under the right conditions, there is a realization and you stop thinking. This happens if you had been paying attention to the "Dhyan" undercurrent of your contemplation. The intellect realizes it is limited and shuts off (if only for a moment) and there is an/a experience/seeing of Oneness (darsan). One becomes immersed in the Oneness, God, (even if only for a moment) and this is know as Samadhi.

You realize thinking is the surface stuff, what is happening is deeper. Simran is about this depth. It is not really about thinking, contemplation, concentration or repetition (all of which happen simultaneously and naturally, all of which can lead to Simran). It is about that depth. There is no word for that. Gurbani sometimes uses the word, ਅਨਹਤ/ਅਨਹਦ, "Unstruck sound" (ਜੋ ਬਿਨਾ ਵਜਾਏ ਵੱਜੇ, ਇੱਕ-ਰਸ, ਲਗਾਤਾਰ) amongst others.

PS Try contemplating on Unstruck sound! Come to think of it, it sounds like this Zen Koan.

Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?
—Hakuin Ekaku

One who knows the Unstruck sound knows the answer to the Koan.
 

Ambarsaria

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Bhagat Singh veer ji right or wrong is not about me. I have understanding but also I learn from the masters who studied things many times more than that I ever will.

The Bani Japji Sahib is not designed to be chanted or murmured. You can read one word or one tuk or the whole Gurbani. Guru ji need our brain and not's our lips or our self indulgence into quietness or they would have found a "Khota/Donkey" and a stone who can do things louder and quieter respectively. Kind of crude analogy.

I also experienced "LaLa land" a while ago, it is fun. Let me know when you come out of it to do some Musketeering swordfight.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Scarlet Pimpernel

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Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?

Muskeveer ji Either it is the the Sound of Silence or if you slap someone else with that hand then it is another sound altogether!

Gadai du devo loon te kenda merai kan patda!

(I have not read what the arguement was about but thought I would just throw in what my mum says to me when I fail to grasp something that benefits me)
 
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BhagatSingh

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Sp ji,
I'll take the hint now. :grinningsingh:

That and I seem to be hitting a wall here. I guess beyond a certain point, some things cannot be talked about but must be discovered on their own.
 

Ambarsaria

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Sp ji,
I'll take the hint now. :grinningsingh:

That and I seem to be hitting a wall here. I guess beyond a certain point, some things cannot be talked about but must be discovered on their own.
Veer Bhagat Singh ji, Veer Taranjeet Singh ji you may find the first Sabad in 3rd Astpadi instructive. Guru ji have clearly stated the intent of what he means,

ਨਹੀ ਤੁਲਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੀਐ ਇਕ ਬਾਰ ੧॥
Nahī ṯul rām nām bīcẖār. Nānak gurmukẖ nām japī▫ai ik bār. ||1||

None equal the seeking of creator’s understanding. Guru Nanak, it is so even if you do such effort to understand the creator once.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhmani-sahib/37788-sukhmani-sahib-astpadi-3-sabad-1-a.html

ਨਾਮੁ is Understanding and not NAME.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Ambarsaria

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Gadai du devo loon te kenda merai kan patda!
Veer Scarlet Pimpernel ji I think it may go something like this (you British born "toatley" kids lol mundahug),

ਗਧੇ ਨੂੰ ਦੇਵੇ ਲੂੰਨ ਤੇ ਕਹਿੰਦਾ ਕੰਨ ਪੁੱਟਦਾ / You give salt to a donkey (for benefit), it says you are pulling my ears (hurting me)

Essence: You do something to help someone, they instead complain of you hurting them.

So let us look at an application,

Bhagat Singh
/Ambarsaria tries to help and Ambarsaria/Bhagat Singh takes it as non-help, respectively. Smart Alec sp ji lol mundahug. Of course such allowed between Muketeer veers.

Sat Sri Akal
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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ਗਧੇ ਨੂੰ ਦੇਵੇ ਲੂੰਨ ਤੇ ਕਹਿੰਦਾ ਕੰਨ ਪੁੱਟਦਾ
Veer Ji I cannot write it as I only hear it,lol If my mum says it it must be true, anyway,This work and your style of not relying on others is great ,I would not dream of complaining as I cannot even read the teeka properly.

I have now read the disagreements,my take is that translation is not a perfect science,just as I wrote in crude format what you wrote perfectly in Punjabi,the message remains the same, but can be interpreted by you in a few ways,( but it was not aimed at you.)

Merry Christmas and Godwill to all men and as the Ghost of Christmas present says
' Come here and know me better man'

To me Jap means to engage in an Enchanted Meditation.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Veer Bhagat Singh ji, Veer Taranjeet Singh ji you may find the first Sabad in 3rd Astpadi instructive. Guru ji have clearly stated the intent of what he means,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhmani-sahib/37788-sukhmani-sahib-astpadi-3-sabad-1-a.html

Even my veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji agreed with me (unless he decides to disagree!) that ਨਾਮੁ is Understanding and not NAME.

Sat Sri Akal.

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Can you display the quote where i agree that NAAMu is UNDERSTANDING.
Again politics
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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AMBARSARIA Ji,
Can you display the quote where i agree that NAAMu is UNDERSTANDING.
Again politics
Prakash.S.Bagga
I am tired of talking to you. If I come across I will post.

I will delete as it may give you better sleep and piece of mind.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ambarsaria

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AMBARSARIA Ji,

Again politics
Prakash.S.Bagga
prakash.s.bagga veer ji thanks for your post.

I am happy to be classified by a great person like you. I assume you only mean things in a positive way.

Hopefully one day you will consider voting for me icecreammunda.
My platform will be free ice cream to all kids, I love ice cream!

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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