Sulhi Paath

[aristotle]

the context of the sabd is not hukam as per my understanding

japjisahib04 Ji,
Perhaps you have already made up your mind not to see the point in the translations that already exist. The translation of another Shabad you have quoted' 'ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਤਾ ਜਿ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਚਲਾਵਉ ॥.....' is grammatically incorrect too IMO but I wont go into that discussion because this time the discussion should be solely based on the Shabad at hand, why you have chosen to quote another Shabad is beyond my unintelligent comprehension.

In the whole Shabad, Guru Arjan Sahib does not use a single negative epithet against Sulhi Khan, he instead narrates the events as they were. Guru Sahib does not boast of casting an evil spell or performing some miracle against the forces of Sulhi Khan, the Shabad culminates instead with the Akal Purakh heeding to the prayers of His servant. Obviously the whole Shabad carries the spirit of hukam, accepting the will of God even if it goes against you; and Ardas, supplication before the Lord in times of negativity.
The Shabad in my view is a beautiful example of practising these virtues in one's life.

First I should know what was the vaak of my guru which was accomplished, whether to get rid from the suffering of vicious vikar and how to be truthful or by keeping grudge to glorify punishment to sulhi khan and his family members who had no faults of theirs in that plotting and conspiring.

* I think we have already been there in this discussion. We can only judge Guru Arjan Sahib to have held a grudge against Sulhi Khan, if he would have mentioned so in this Shabad, which he did not.

* Secondly, the Shabad does not 'glorify' punishment. In fact, it wasn't even punishment in the real sense of the word. Sulhi Khan failed in the nefarious designs he himself had planned, and suffered from, what we would call in the modern times, a mechanical accident. Guru Sahib just offers thanksgiving to the Lord for having saved him and heeding to his prayers.

* Thirdly, nowhere in the Shabad are the friends or family of Sulhi Khan held 'guilty'. In fact the only tuk where they are mentioned is,

ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਧਨੁ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਇਆ ਸਭ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਕੁ ॥
Of his sons, friends and wealth, nothing remains; he departed, leaving behind all his brothers and relatives.

I cannot see that they are held guilty.
The English translation says 'Of his sons, friends and wealth, nothing remains'.....why?......because Sulhi no longer enjoys their kinship in his death, he succumbed to his own evil designs, no family member was there to help him.
Of what you claim, the meaning is quite the reverse. Even in this Shabad Guru Arjan Sahib has managed to give us a valuable lesson that an individual himself is responsible for his/her own actions, and no amount of wealthy and powerful kinship can help one in his death. Sulhi, the general, with loads of wealth and armour, had to die. So shall I, and so shall everyone else. Doesn't this make the concept of hukam ever more relevant?

:animatedkhanda1:

 

[japjisahib04]

So I stick by my guns on this point. All the plotting and planning of evil did not succeed, but led to destruction and disgrace. The One who created him (the emperor, you, me or anyone) gave him a push. On the other side, when I am the perfect 'slave' my ardaas is heard and answered. The context in which some choose to plot evil and are destroyed, yet others find bliss who chose to be slaves of the Guru, depends on who sees the truth of hukam and who does not.

I can't say more because I have reached the limit of my understanding of this shabad. Forgive me.

Spnadmin Jee

While reflecting at the rahao pankti when I interpret, 'ਮੰਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਪਚਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੀਨਾ ਧਾਕੁ ॥੧॥ I am getting a different message. Plotting and conspiring evil, I was spiritually dead and manh was pushing me towards devil workshop but the moment I approached satguru and was enlightened with His grace or transformed then the same mind guided me to the righteous path and accordingly 'ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਧਨੁ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਇਆ ਸਭ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਕੁ ॥ over here guru sahib is not referring to biological family who have deserted me but family of demons thought like asha, trisha, nindia, chugli, haumai etc. -when kabir jee says, 'ਪਾਂਚਉ ਲਰਿਕਾ ਜਾਰਿ ਕੈ ਰਹੈ ਰਾਮ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗਿ ॥੪੨ he is not talking burning about bilogical sons but kaam krodh, lobh, moh ahnkar. And this is the 'vaak' accomplished I believe which guru sahib in the end pankti is referring.

I apologize if I am bothering you.

 

[Ishna]

p/s Is there a better translation for this jin jan kā kīno pūran vāk?

Prof. Sahib Singh translates ਜਨ ਕਾ ਵਾਕੁ as ਸੇਵਕ ਦੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ(Prayer/ Ardas of the servant), which IMO will be more appropriate here, using which 'Kaho Nānak ṯis parabẖ balihārī jin jan kā kīno pūran vāk' can be interpreted as,

Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to God, who has taken heed to the prayer of His servant (,and protected the servant from the atrocities of Sulhi Khan and the events that so transpired)

instead of

Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to God, who fulfilled the word of His slave.

What prayer, and to whom? Who did the protecting, and how?

Apologies for bothersome questions.

 

[aristotle]

to whom?

Like all his prayers, Guru Arjan Sahib directs this prayer towards the Akal Purakh, for whom the metaphor 'Narayana' (literally the 'One who rests on water', or more appropriately the 'Supreme being who rests in His own Creation') is used.

what prayer

who did the protecting?

how?

Gurmat advocates living in the hukam of the Lord; accepting at the face value how the life turns up, and perform Ardas when the going gets tough. Guru Arjan Sahib faced hostilities throughout his life and Guruship, from kinsmen and the Mughal authorities alike. But, we do not come across a single word of hatred towards anyone throughout his Bani. Thinking the 'prayer' would have been something like 'Oh Lord, kill Sulhi Khan before he kills me and my Sikhs'.......nay, that would be a great disservice to Guru Sahib. Here, Guru Sahib suffered attempts at his life, and not only his life but also at the nascent Sikh community. It is no wonder Guru Sahib evoked the help of Akal Purakh in his Ardas, and when Sulhi Khan perished in his own pit, thanking Akal Purakh for protection against the evil. Such was the philosophy of my Guru Sahib, pray for yourself and your cause, if they be true, but don't direct your prayers 'against' anyone; For Ardas is a connection between Man and the Divine, it is much beyond the English meanings of the word 'prayer'.

 

[spnadmin]

japjisahib ji

I don't think we are talking about the same shabad. Once again I do not dispute any of your ideas. However there is a primary meaning to the Sulhi shabad, and of course there is a broader meaning having ties to other ideas in Shabad guru that give this shabad its force. A primary meaning is not a literal meaning.

In the primary meaning of the shabad it is about Sulhi Khan, as aristotle ji and Gyani ji have reinforced. In its primary meaning it is about the liberation that is gained from living in hukam. In its broader meaning it cannot escape connections to many of the other ideas that you raise. No shabad can do that. However, I have been going along thinking that the thread is about the primary meaning of the shabad.

So at this point it is important to clarify and to ask you, Which meaning are you speaking to? The primary meaning of the Sulhi shabad? Or a broader placement of the ideas as they connect to other ideas in Kabir ji's bani? We have to clear our intentions from time to time or a conversation becomes confusing to all who are in it and all who read it.

p/s Please do not think me rude or dense. I see this as a persistent problem. An interpretation leaps over layers and layers of meaning to something that is very broad and the reader says, :whatzpointkudi: It is more helpful to take the time to make connections step by step.

 

[japjisahib04]

japjisahib ji

I don't think we are talking about the same shabad. Once again I do not dispute any of your ideas. However there is a primary meaning to the Sulhi shabad, and of course there is a broader meaning having ties to other ideas in Shabad guru that give this shabad its force. A primary meaning is not a literal meaning.

In the primary meaning of the shabad it is about Sulhi Khan, as aristotle ji and Gyani ji have reinforced. In its primary meaning it is about the liberation that is gained from living in hukam. In its broader meaning it cannot escape connections to many of the other ideas that you raise. No shabad can do that. However, I have been going along thinking that the thread is about the primary meaning of the shabad.

So at this point it is important to clarify and to ask you, Which meaning are you speaking to? The primary meaning of the Sulhi shabad? Or a broader placement of the ideas as they connect to other ideas in Kabir ji's bani? We have to clear our intentions from time to time or a conversation becomes confusing to all who are in it and all who read it.

p/s Please do not think me rude or dense. I see this as a persistent problem. An interpretation leaps over layers and layers of meaning to something that is very broad and the reader says, :whatzpointkudi: It is more helpful to take the time to make connections step by step.

Spnadmin Jee

Let me first write down the complete interpretation of this sabd, as I understand:
ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Bilāval mėhlā 5.
Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੁਲਹੀ ਤੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਰਾਖੁ ॥
Sulhī ṯe nārā▫iṇ rākẖ.
Unlike the, 'ਦੁਸਟੁ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਮੂਆ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਸੂਲ ॥੧॥, Ignorant brahmin who proclaims in 'napak' state of mind that he knows everything, Sabd guru has protected me from this disease. (thus 'sulhi is a disease and not any person that fearless Guru sahib was scared to invoke God's power)

ਸੁਲਹੀ ਕਾ ਹਾਥੁ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਪਹੁਚੈ ਸੁਲਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਮੂਆ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Sulhī kā hāth kahī na pahucẖai sulhī ho▫e mū▫ā nāpāk. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By coming into the grip of sulhi, the same time mind becomes naapak or spirtually dead, but once transformed, then this disease cannot touch any portion of body or pollute the thought process again. The internet translation suggest that guru is boosting that because his prayer succeded by invoking akal Purakh 'The emperor did not succeed in his plot, and he died in disgrace.) ||1||Pause||

ਕਾਢਿ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਖਸਮਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਗਇਆ ਹੈ ਖਾਕੁ ॥
Kādẖ kuṯẖār kẖasam sir kāti▫ā kẖin mėh ho▫e ga▫i▫ā hai kẖāk.
When I surrendered in humility, within a fraction of second, the sword of sabd guru, slashed my manh's thought process maligned with 'sulhi'.(if i take internet translation then the first question arises formless God took which form and raised His axe against laws of nature) The Lord and Master raised His axe, and chopped off his head; in an instant, he was reduced to dust. ||1||

ਮੰਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਪਚਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੀਨਾ ਧਾਕੁ ॥੧॥
Manḏā cẖiṯvaṯ cẖiṯvaṯ pacẖi▫ā jin racẖi▫ā ṯin ḏīnā ḏẖāk. ||1||
By plotting and conspiring evil design, I was spiritually dead and manh was pushing me towards devil workshop more and more but the moment I approached satguru and was enlightened with His grace or transformed then the same mind guided me to the righteous path. (The internet translation raises a question how and what 'push' God gave me. Why He is not giving push to Jagdish Tytler, Sajjan Kumar - Is God bias) Plotting and planning evil, he was destroyed. The One who created him, gave him a push.

ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਧਨੁ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਇਆ ਸਭ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਕੁ ॥
Puṯar mīṯ ḏẖan kicẖẖū na rahi▫o so cẖẖod ga▫i▫ā sabẖ bẖā▫ī sāk.
over here guru sahib is not referring to biological family who have deserted him (as Guru sahib even otherwise says, 'eh kutamb tu jee daikhda chalai nahi teri naalai) but family of demons thought like asha, trisha, nindia, chugli, haumai etc(Tell me it is all money power which speaks and as such 'Does internet translation stating 'Of his sons, friends and wealth, nothing remains; he departed, leaving behind all his brothers and relatives' makes any sense.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਨ ਕਾ ਕੀਨੋ ਪੂਰਨ ਵਾਕੁ ॥੨॥੧੮॥੧੦੪॥
Kaho Nānak ṯis parabẖ balihārī jin jan kā kīno pūran vāk. ||2||18||104||
This line is the crux of whole shabd that by blessing me with sabd guru 'safal safal hoey yatra'. Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to God, who fulfilled the word of His slave. ||2||18||104||

From the very first day I been stating that it is not sulhi khan but bondage of ahankar. Thus is both primary and broader. Moreover, when guru sahib says, 'manukh ki taikh birthi sabh jaan - will same fearless guru will make prayer to invoke akal purakh powers to silence another manukh.

I hope I have clarified my point. However I don't claim this is the final interpretation. I am always ready for feed back.

Best regard
sahni

 

[spnadmin]

Respectfully japjisahibji

I have checked 3 translations other than that of Sant Sikh Kahlsa and none of them treat this as other than the story of Sulhi Khan, gone to attack Guru Arjan Dev and foiled in his plans. This is followed by a message of hukam and thanks to divine protection.

My own reading of the shabad goes in that direction as well.

But I do thank you for taking the time to explain your way to understanding the shabad. That is very helpful

 

[aristotle]

japjisahib04 Ji,
Apologies, but your translation still doesn't make sense to me. I still stick to my point that we should translate this Shabad as it really is, not as we wish to translate it.
We must agree to disagree on this point after all.

 

[spnadmin]

Apologies to all. This is an after-thought and not included so far in the discussion. Guru Arjan Dev ji's historical record of his interchange and encounter with Sulhi Khan is mentioned earlier in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, i.e., on Ang 371 as follows:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Asa 5th Guru.

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਤਾ ਜਿ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਚਲਾਵਉ ॥
Parathme maṯā jė paṯrī cẖalāva▫o.
At first I was counselled to send a letter.

ਦੁਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਦੁਇ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਉ ॥
Ḏuṯī▫e maṯā ḏu▫e mānukẖ pahucẖāva▫o.
Secondly, I was advised to send two men to mediate.

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਉ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
Ŧariṯī▫e maṯā kicẖẖ kara▫o upā▫i▫ā.
The third suggestion was that some effort should be made.

ਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਹੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥
Mai sabẖ kicẖẖ cẖẖod parabẖ ṯuhī ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā. ||1||
Forsaking one and all, I have meditated on Thee alone, O Lord.

Knowing of the impending visit of Sulhi Khan Guru Arjan Dev documents these events in history. He speaks of the advice he received that might forestall a confrontation with Sulhi Khan sent to wreak the will of Emperor Jaganir. The shabad follows a series of vars that speak of attachment to wealth and the suffering resulting from greed. Greed, along with pride and jealousy, is the evil core that lies behind the emperor's plan. Guru Arjan in all humility seeks counsel of those close to him and then rejects this advice Mai sabh kichh chhod in favor of parabh tuhi dhi-a-i-a.

These two banis set the stage for remembrance of Guru Arjan Dev's ultimate acceptance of hukam with devotion of the parabh at the time he knew he would give his life - his physical life.

 

[japjisahib04]

Spandmin Jee

Since I knew above sabd is associated by scholars with sulhi khan, when I brought up this sabd as follows, Aristotle jee objected and stated this sabd is out of context:

'So the moments I realized the symptoms of sufferings I approach to my satguru. Gurbani narrates the vaak like this, 'ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਤਾ ਜਿ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਚਲਾਵਉ ॥ when I approached my satuguru and explained symptoms of my sufferings to diagnoise, first thing satguru guides me the prescription ਦੁਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਦੁਇ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਉ ॥ he takes my manh to consiousness to see the logic and achieve discriminatory intellect ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਉ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ takes effort and avoid which over reacts ਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਹੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ I totally surrender my matt and adopted divine wisdom. Similarly 'ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ does not mean I sacrifice but it is bal+hari or I am surrendering my matt to adopt your divine message which paved the way for unity and accomplishment of vaak.'

I can understand your consultation of three translation, but gurusahib wants us to depend upon our own descriminatory intellect, 'har peo swami kai duarai deejai budh bheebeka' and not on others translation. Translation is the job of those, jaisai harhat ki mala tind lagat hai.

Aristotle jee I understand your point, but please tell me whether my understnding is against gurmat.

best regard
sahni

 

[aristotle]

Aristotle jee I understand your point, but please tell me whether my understnding is against gurmat.

japjisahib04 Ji,
Who am I to judge you?
I can only express my views, and I'll be doing precisely that.

 

[japjisahib04]

japjisahib04 Ji,
Who am I to judge you?
I can only express my views, and I'll be doing precisely that.

But I am definite that internet translation of 'ਕਾਢਿ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਖਸਮਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ' is anti gurmat AS MY SATGURU IS SO SWEET OH KADAI N BOLAI KAUDA and in gurmat there is no concept of invoking God's power. Gurmat concept is, 'ਤੂ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਪਹਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਤੇਰੇ ॥ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਮਹਿ ਸੂਖ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ॥ ਊਚੇ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ਭਗਵੰਤ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਸਮਗ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਮਰੈ ਸੂਤ੍ਰਿ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ॥ Thus in gurmat ardas means surrender. His concept is simple to understand and comprehend. This (Source of Creation) Nature is carefree, 100% carefree (Weparwah), it has no qualms whether a billion people should die tomorrow from genocide, riots,tsunami, plague or nuclear holocaust! (because it is perpetuated under the laws of nature or hukam) (A thousand ardas would not make a difference).

Gurmat concept is, 'ਪਸੂ ਮਾਣਸ ਚੰਮਿ ਪਲੇਟੇ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਕਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਸਭੋ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿਆ ॥ we are nothing more than beast wrapped in human skin and full of black hearted within and will not waste a single chance to humiliate or rob until we invoke the sabd within and live accordingly. THUS GURMAT CONCEPT IS PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN THE CURE.

best regards
sahni