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Superstitions

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Let's take a look at the statement that led me to my question.

think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them. (BhagatSinghji)

See Post 11. If you are using worship to mean "venerate as an idol" then your statement takes us in one direction. If you are using "worship" to mean feeling profound love and admiration," then the statement takes us in other directions.
I dont think so, those are different ways of worshipping. I am including all of them.

Qualifier:Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them

Conclusion: think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition.

My conclusion holds only if the qualifier is true.

Now lets substitute the different definitions in to the qualifier.
Let me explain. After we show profound love and admiration for him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I showed profound love and admiration for him. When we don't show profound love and admiration for him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' show profound love and admiration for him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we show profound love and admiration for him, we notice good things more because we are expecting them

So that's profound love and admiration
Now for venerate as an idol. Idol = a perfect embodiment of a concept
Venerate = a feeling of profound respect for someone or something

Let me explain. After we venerate him as an idol, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I venerated him as an idol. When we don't venerate him as an idol and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' t venerate him as an idol. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we venerate him as an idol, we notice good things more because we are expecting them
I fnished off with:
Should we stop worshippin God? Sure if you are going to think that you have any form of control over God. Sure, if you are going to believe that your worshipping CAUSED God to "bless you". Sure, if you think you are any more significant than an ant is to you.

I hope I used that phrases correctly... I guess I dol could also be the hindu idols. I dont think it changes the meaning too much. There might be something you're saying that I am missing, I will come back to this thread later. Please dont get frustrated if I dont get you. :D
 

Tejwant Singh

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Bhagat ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You contested the word Seek. I did not contest the word Realize. I just gave the deifniton of Worship and Seek.

You say:

Um, you can't simply draw conclusions from how many hits you get. I looked up seek and found passages saying "I seek Lord's sanctuary" etc. This is not the same as seeking the lord.

It is interesting to notice that you just did that above. So what is your point?:)

If you say seek = realize then sure.

Well you used the word realize not me. So if you had claimed Seek= realize in your response to my post, then there is no argument but you are the one who contested it. Now you are blaming me for not saying that in the first place. This is hillarious to say the least.

Forgive me, but I have no idea what this futile argument is about from your side.

I looked up seek and found passages saying "I seek Lord's sanctuary" etc. This is not the same as seeking the lord.

Did you look up Realize in the same way?

Both, Seek and Realize are used in different manners in SGGS but that was not the point of my initial post to start with.

Tejwant Singh
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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I think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them.
Should we stop worshippin God? Sure if you are going to think that you have any form of control over God. Sure, if you are going to believe that your worshipping CAUSED God to "bless you". Sure, if you think you are any more significant than an ant is to you.

Bhagt Singh Ji,

Imho Sikhs dont worship..they SEEK Ik Oangkaar...to MERGE with Him.
The entire SGGS is all about "SEEKING" this Merger.
Sikhs dont seek...gifts..or good things..thats why we dont desire either Heaven..are not afraid of Nark...we are to Thank him for everything..be happy if we get good things..and thankful if he sends bad ones our way...SUKH/DUKH..BOTH come from Him. his HUKM.
I will not stop "seeking Ik Oangkar"...as there is no other choice really !!..and I have seen how "big" our Earth really is in relation to the Universe...so no illusions as Guru Ji already stated..Patallan patal lakh...Thanks .
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Bhagat ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You contested the word Seek. I did not contest the word Realize.
Sorry about that. I thought you did.
I just gave the deifniton of Worship and Seek.


You say:
It is interesting to notice that you just did that above. So what is your point?:)
My point was that because seek in that context is not used for seeking the lord, that there maybe other passages like it that might be contributing to the hits you got.
So you cannot base anything off the hits. I came to no other conclusion. I guess I should have explicitly stated that.

Well you used the word realize not me. So if you had claimed Seek= realize in your response to my post, then there is no argument but you are the one who contested it. Now you are blaming me for not saying that in the first place. This is hillarious to say the least.

Forgive me, but I have no idea what this futile argument is about from your side.

Did you look up Realize in the same way?

Both, Seek and Realize are used in different manners in SGGS but that was not the point of my initial post to start with.

Tejwant Singh
To be honest I don't know why I contested "seek" as in "to obtain/ endeavor". Anyway, the confusion was caused by me. I am sorry, please clarify your initial post, if you dont mind. I thought you were contesting the words.
 

tony

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Feb 20, 2006
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Bhagat Singh ji
I think I understood the point you where trying to make. The last two and a half years I have worked hard and my finances flourished, holding down three different types of work, Ground worker, Door supervisor and Personal trainer, This left me very little time to say my thanks in a morning certainly unable to wake up three hours before dawn, then last year things took a turn for the worst, my SIA badge expired and I didn't want to renew it, so I could no longer work as a door supervisor, then the personal training work dropped off, and in November the ground work stopped, If I was superstitious I could think this was due to the fact that I hadnt said enough thanks to God and that it was punishment, but I'm sure God doesn't work like that and I'm also pretty sure that its down to the Global recession which wasn't caused by me. Now for the last four months Ive had more time and things are looking up just landed one contract and another is in the pipeline, is this because I've had time to pray and God is rewarding me, if I thought that that would be superstitious. If I thought that God would give me the contract over any body else just because Ive prayed better would be foolish and egotistical as I'm sure many others had prayed just as hard and probably lead far better lives than myself. And if one is seeking God open your eyes God is the creation and the creation is God, If you want to merge with him according to the SGGS ji its only done thinking of him at all times and by your actions, Arguing over the meanings of words is hardly contemplating God and has little to do with superstitions. It seemed a pretty simple explanation thank you Bhagat ji
Tony
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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yes Tony ji, you understood what I said. My emphasis was never on worship, it was on the mentality behind it.

Jarnail Singh ji, How do you seek God?
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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yes Tony ji, you understood what I said. My emphasis was never on worship, it was on the mentality behind it.

Jarnail Singh ji, How do you seek God?

Bhagt Singh Ji,

I thought my mail was clear..still here goes...
A SIKH "seeks" GOD by trying to live his/her daily life according to His HUKM.
You see GOD is WITHIN..but we are still separated from HIM because of the walls of the 5 thieves.... Kiv Kurreh tutteh paal ? .....HUKM razaii challannna.
So the "seeking" is NOT the usual..seek and you shall find..sort of stuff...taking a torch and go seek..
for a SIKH..its seeking a way towards MERGER...breaking down the walls and REUNION.
I hope that clarifies jio...:wah:
 

spnadmin

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Gyani ji

Forgive me if I add something and yell if I am WRONG.

A person "seeks" under one or two conditions. 1. One seeks something because they once had it but now it is missing, lost, mislaid. 2. One seeks something because it is absent, out of reach, or one never had it to begin with.

Waheguru is not missing, lost mislaid, absent, out of reach, or void in a person's life. Therefore there is no seeking of Waheguru. Waheguru is always there, present, "to near to be far" therefore not out of reach, or divorced from our lives.

We create the fiction that we are "seeking" God (the way we look for a lost puppy, or posting signs for a lost relative). The truth is that we are lost in our limited awarenesses, minds wandering and roaming around aimlessly, and we cannot offer our minds to Him because we have lost our minds (Oh man you have awakened from a nightmare.)

So Waheguru is not hiding and we are not seeking, we only think we are.
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Bhagt Singh Ji,

I thought my mail was clear..still here goes...
A SIKH "seeks" GOD by trying to live his/her daily life according to His HUKM.
You see GOD is WITHIN..but we are still separated from HIM because of the walls of the 5 thieves.... Kiv Kurreh tutteh paal ? .....HUKM razaii challannna.
So the "seeking" is NOT the usual..seek and you shall find..sort of stuff...taking a torch and go seek..
for a SIKH..its seeking a way towards MERGER...breaking down the walls and REUNION.
I hope that clarifies jio...:wah:
Why try to find a way to merge with him? Whats that going to do or accomplish?

Tejwant ji, Aad ji has just echoed my view.
We don't seek God but realize him. This realization is like "
(Oh man you have awakened from a nightmare.) - Aad ji"
 

vsgrewal48895

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Where to find God?

Humans have debated since creation, about spirituality and have questioned how to find God and communicate with It?

Guru Nanak in the mode of Raag Parbhati answers the question firstly putting all the responsibility on duality and finally on Akal Purkh Itself. It could only be achieved through devotional love and Its fear (Accepting Its Will in present) as delineated in the “Sabd Guru” by contemplation, deliberation, and reflection on the message in daily life to swim across the worldly ocean;

ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਬਉਰੀ ਮਨੁ ਬਉਰਾਇਆ॥ਝੂਠੈ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ ਲਪਟਿ ਰਹੀ ਫੁਨਿ ਬੰਧੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ॥ ਨਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਭਉ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰੈ ॥

Ḏubiḏẖā ba▫urī man ba▫urā▫i▫ā. Jẖūṯẖai lālacẖ janam gavā▫i▫ā. Lapat rahī fun banḏẖ na pā▫i▫ā. Saṯgur rākẖe nām driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā. Nā man marai na mā▫i▫ā marai.Jin Kich Kee-aa Soyee Jaanai Sabad Veechar Bhau Sagar Tarai.

The insanity of duality has driven the mind insane. In false greed, life is wasting away. Duality clings to the mind; it cannot be restrained. The True Guru saves us, by implanting Akal Purkh’s Naam within. Without subduing the mind, Maya cannot be subdued. The One who created all this understands Itself. Contemplating the Word of the Sabd, one is carried across the terrifying world-ocean.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhatee Bibhas, AGGS, Page, 1342-3

ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੁ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ਸਬਦੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਖੈ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ਸਬਦੇ ਗਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥

Iss Jug Meh Sabad Karnee Hai Saar, Bin Sabadai Hoar Moh Gubaar, “Sabadai Naam Rahai Ourdhaar, Sabdai Gat Mit Mokh Duaar.

In this world, the practice of the Sabd is the most excellent occupation. Without the Sabd, everything else is the darkness of emotional attachment. Through the Sabd, the Naam is enshrined within the heart. Through the Sabd, one obtains clear understanding and the door of salvation. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhatee Bibhas, AGGS, Page, 1342-10

Guru Arjan confirms it by stressing that all the above has to be accomplished through one’s life from beginning, mid, and till end in the mode of Gauri and Gujri;

ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਜੋ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਬਾਹੈ ॥ਸੋ ਸਾਜਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਚਾਹੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਚਾਲੈ ॥ ਦਇਆਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੈ ॥ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ਛੋਡਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਜਹ ਪੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਜੀਅ ਦਾਤਾ ॥ ਭਾਈ ਪੂਤੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮਾਤਾ ॥ ਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਅਧਾਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਾਈ ਕਰਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਿਵਾਸਿ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਸਿਲਕ ਕਾਟੀ ਗੋਪਾਲਿ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਪੁਨਾ ਲੀਨੋ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿ ॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕਾਟੇ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ॥ ਚਰਣ ਧਿਆਨ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖ ਭੋਗ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਵਤਨੁ ਨਿਤ ਬਾਲਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨ ॥ ਸਰਬਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਭਗਤ ਕਉ ਦੀਨ ॥

Aad MaDh Jo Ant Nibaahai, So Saajan Mayraa Man Chaahai. Har kī parīṯ saḏā sang cẖālai. Ḏa▫i▫āl purakẖ pūran paraṯipālai. Binsaṯ nāhī cẖẖod na jā▫e. Jah pekẖā ṯah rahi▫ā samā▫e. Sunḏar sugẖaṛ cẖaṯur jī▫a ḏāṯā. Bẖā▫ī pūṯ piṯā parabẖ māṯā. Jīvan parān aḏẖār merī rās. Parīṯ lā▫ī kar riḏai nivās. Mā▫i▫ā silak kātī gopāl. Kar apunā līno naḏar nihāl. Simar simar kāte sabẖ rog. Cẖaraṇ ḏẖi▫ān sarab sukẖ bẖog. Pūran purakẖ navṯan niṯ bālā. Har anṯar bāhar sang rakẖvālā. Kaho Nānak har har paḏ cẖīn. Sarbas nām bẖagaṯ ka▫o ḏīn.

My mind longs for that Friend, who shall stand by me in the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Akal Purkh's Love goes with us forever. The Perfect and Merciful God cherishes all. It shall never perish, and shall never abandon me. Wherever I look, there I see It pervading and permeating. It is Beautiful, All-knowing, the most Clever, and the Giver of life. God is my Brother, Son, Father and Mother. It is the Support of the breath of life; and is my Wealth. Abiding within my heart, It inspires me to enshrine Its love. The God of the World has cut away the noose of Maya. It has made me Its own, blessing me with Its Glance of Grace. Remembering, remembering It in meditation, all diseases are healed. Meditating on Its Feet, all comforts are enjoyed. The Perfect Primal God is Ever-fresh and Ever-young, and is with me, inwardly and outwardly, as my Protector. Says Nanak, that devotee who realizes the state of the Eternal Akal Purkh is blessed with the treasure of the Naam. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 240-10

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥

Nanak Satgur Bhatai Poori Hovai Jugat, Hasandeyaa, Khelandiaa, Penandiaa,Vichay Hovai Mukat.

O Nanak, meeting the True Guru (Sabd Guru), one comes to know the Perfect Way. While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gujri, AGGS, Page, 522-10

Bhagat Kabir ponders on it in Raag Parbhati;

ਅਲਹੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਮੁਲਖੁ ਕਿਸੁ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਦੁਹ ਮਹਿ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਹੇਰਾ ॥ ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਜੀਵਉ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਈ ॥ ਤੂ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਹਰਾਮਤਿ ਸਾਈ ॥ ਦਖਨ ਦੇਸਿ ਹਰੀ ਕਾ ਬਾਸਾ ਪਛਿਮਿ ਅਲਹ ਮੁਕਾਮਾ ॥ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਦਿਲੈ ਦਿਲਿ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਏਹੀ ਠਉਰ ਮੁਕਾਮਾ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਗਿਆਸ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਉਬੀਸਾ ਕਾਜੀ ਮਹ ਰਮਜਾਨਾ ॥ਗਿਆਰਹ ਮਾਸ ਪਾਸ ਕੈ ਰਾਖੇ ਏਕੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਉਡੀਸੇ ਮਜਨੁ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਂਏਂ ॥ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰੈ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਂਏਂ ॥ ਏਤੇ ਅਉਰਤ ਮਰਦਾ ਸਾਜੇ ਏ ਸਭ ਰੂਪ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ॥ਕਬੀਰੁ ਪੂੰਗਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਅਲਹ ਕਾ ਸਭ ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ|| ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਨਰ ਨਰਵੈ ਪਰਹੁ ਏਕ ਕੀ ਸਰਨਾ ॥ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਨਿਹਚੈ ਤਰਨਾ ॥

Alhu Ayk Maseet Basat Hai Avar Mulakh Kis Kayraa, Hindoo Moorat Naam Nivaasee Duh Meh Tat Na Hayraa. Alah Raam Jeeva-o Tayray Naa-ee, Too Kar Mihraamat Saa-ee. Dakhan Days Haree Kaa Baasaa Pachhim Alah Mukaamaa, Dil Meh Khoj Dilai Dil Khojahu Ayhee Tha-ur Mukaamaa. Barahman Gi-aas Karahi Cha-ubeesaa Kaajee Mah Ramjaanaa, Gi-aareh Maas Paas Kai Raakhay Aikai Maahi NiDhaanaa. Kahaa Udeesay Majan Kee-aa Ki-aa Maseet Sir NaaN-ayN, Dil Meh Kapat Nivaaj Gujaarai Ki-Aa Haj Kaabai JaaN-ayN. Aytay A-urat Mardaa Saajay Ay Sabh Roop TumHaaray, Kabir Poongraa Raam Alah Kaa Sabh Gur Peer Hamaaray. Kahat Kabir Sunhu Nar Narvai Parahu Ayk Kee Sarnaa, Kayval Naam Japahu Ray Paraanee Tab Hee Nihchai Tarnaa.

If the God Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong? According to the Hindus, the It's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. O Allah, O Ram, I live by Your Name. Please show mercy to me, O Master.The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west. So search in your heart - look deep into your heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives. The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadan. The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque? If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? You fashioned all these men and women, O God, all these are Your Forms. Kabir is the child of God/Allah/Ram. All the Gurus and prophets are mine.

Says Kabir, listen, O men and women: seek the Sanctuary of the One. Chant the Naam, ts Name, O mortals, and you shall surely be carried across.-----Kabir, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1349

Conclusion;

Akal Purkh could only be found in individual’s Self veiled by lower instincts of ਹਉਮੈ, being metaphysical, invisible, incomprehensible, and unfathomable spirit, It does not live in religious symbols, or garb or any kind of rituals but in Self reached through Its
Devotional love. Guru Gobind Singh ponders in Akal Ustit and Bachitar Natak;

ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਦੋਊ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਯਾਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ ॥ ਬਾਸੁ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੈ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੌ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੯ ॥ ੨੯ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗੁ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਿਤਾ੍ਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੂਰ ਕਿ੍ਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਸੀ੍ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੧੦ ॥ ੩੦ ॥

Kaha Bheo Deo Lochan Moondkai Baith Rahio Bak Dhyan Lagaeo, Bas Keo Bikhian So Baith Kai Aisay So Bais Bataeo, Saach Kaho Sun Leh Sabhai Jin Prem Keo Tin He Prabh Paeo, Kaho Lai Pahan Pooj Sir Kaho Lai Ling Garay Latkaeo, Kaho Lakheo Har Aavachi Disa Mai Kaho Ko Pachah Sis Nivaeo, Ko-ou Butaan Kou Poojat Hai Pso Ko-ou Mitran Kaou Poojan Dhaeo, Koor Kiria Orjheo Sabh Jag Sri Bhagwan Ko Bhayd Na Paa-eo.

What if you close your eyes and sit in meditation like a crane/heron; take ablutions in the seven seas- but this way you loose both this world and the next; if one continues to indulge in sinful things, he wastes his life; Let all listen to the truth I proclaim- only he who loves attains the God. Some worship the stone idol and other wear a lingam around their neck; some recognize Akal Purkh in south and others bow their heads to the west; some ignorant ones worship the images and others worship the dead; the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G. Page, 14-15

He further points out on DG page 24 that artificial rituals like Hom Jag are useless and are not equal to devotion and Naam;

ਬਿਨ ਭਗਤ ਸਕਤ ਨਹੀ ਪਰਤ ਪਾਨ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਮ ਅਰ ਜੱਗ ਦਾਨ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਏਕ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਚਿੱਤ ਲੀਨ ॥ ਫੋਕਟੋ ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ॥ ੨੦ ॥ ੧੪੦ ॥
Bin Bhagat Sakat Nhai Parat Paan, Boh Karat Hom Ur Jag Daan, Bin Ek Naam Ik Chit Leen, Fokto Sarb Dharma Baheen.

Thou can not realize Akal Purkh with out power of devotion; many perform yajnas (Akhand Path) and give charities though; Except for placing the Name of Real One in heart, all other deeds are futile.

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI
 

spnadmin

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Bhagat ji

I have not echoed your view. I have echoed Gyani ji's view. You are traveling down a road in your arguments that are not at all consistent with my stand on this matter. Please take a closer look at the shabad in which Guru ji says, Oh man! You have awakened from a nightmare. BTW it should be "tormented" not "awakened." My mistake. But in the shabad below we seek sanctuary; we not not seek Akaal himself. The inspiration is within to wake us up.

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
salok ma 3 ||
Shalok, Third Mehl:
9 ਰੇ ਜਨ ਉਥਾਰੈ ਦਬਿਓਹੁ ਸੁਤਿਆ ਗਈ ਵਿਹਾਇ ॥
rae jan outhhaarai dhabiouhu suthiaa gee vihaae ||
O man, you have been tormented by a nightmare, and you have passed your life in sleep.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਗਿਓ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨ ਉਪਜਿਓ ਚਾਉ ॥
sathigur kaa sabadh sun n jaagiou anthar n oupajiou chaao ||
You did not wake to hear the Word of the True Guru's Shabad; you have no inspiration within yourself.

ਸਰੀਰੁ ਜਲਉ ਗੁਣ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਕਾਰ ਨ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
sareer jalo gun baaharaa jo gur kaar n kamaae ||
That body burns, which has no virtue, and which does not serve the Guru.

ਜਗਤੁ ਜਲੰਦਾ ਡਿਠੁ ਮੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
jagath jalandhaa ddith mai houmai dhoojai bhaae ||
I have seen that the world is burning, in egotism and the love of duality.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਉਬਰੇ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥
naanak gur saranaaee oubarae sach man sabadh dhhiaae ||1||
O Nanak, those who seek the Guru's Sanctuary are saved; within their minds, they meditate on the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Gyani ji

Forgive me if I add something and yell if I am WRONG.

A person "seeks" under one or two conditions. 1. One seeks something because they once had it but now it is missing, lost, mislaid. 2. One seeks something because it is absent, out of reach, or one never had it to begin with.

Waheguru is not missing, lost mislaid, absent, out of reach, or void in a person's life. Therefore there is no seeking of Waheguru. Waheguru is always there, present, "to near to be far" therefore not out of reach, or divorced from our lives.

We create the fiction that we are "seeking" God (the way we look for a lost puppy, or posting signs for a lost relative). The truth is that we are lost in our limited awarenesses, minds wandering and roaming around aimlessly, and we cannot offer our minds to Him because we have lost our minds (Oh man you have awakened from a nightmare.)

So Waheguru is not hiding and we are not seeking, we only think we are.
Ok I may have misunderstoof you but I agree with what you wrote here.

Jarnail Singh ji says that Sikhs seek a way to merge with God.
Ok, that raises questions in my head: why merge with God? When have we separated from him?
 
Guru Sahib tells us to crush the 5 theives into bits, these separate us from God. Union with God is acheived when attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed are out of your system. Otherwise we are living in heaven or hell on this earth. You can choose which road out of these you want to take. But a Sikh takes none of these roads and takes the road less traveled, which is to gain union/realize/merge with God. There is no heaven and there is no hell, there is only God.
 

vsgrewal48895

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Dear Teji Ji,

Here is what Guru Arjan Says about Ik Ong Kaar;


ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧

Bẖairo mėhlā 5 gẖar 1

Bhairao, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace of The True Guru:

ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥ ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥ ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥ ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥

Saglī thīṯ pās dār rākẖī. Astam thīṯ govinḏ janmā sī. ||1|| Bẖaram bẖūle nar karaṯ kacẖrā▫iṇ. Janam maraṇ ṯe rahaṯ nārā▫iṇ. ||1|| rahā▫o. Kar panjīr kẖavā▫i▫o cẖor. Oh janam na marai re sākaṯ dẖor. ||2|| Sagal parāḏẖ ḏėh loronī. So mukẖ jala▫o jiṯ kahėh ṯẖākur jonī. ||3|| Janam na marai na āvai na jā▫e. Nānak kā parabẖ rahi▫o samā▫e. ||4||1||

Setting aside all other days, it is said, that the God was born on the eighth lunar day. ||1|| Deluded and confused by doubt, the mortal practices falsehood. The God is beyond birth and death.||1||Pause|| You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god. God is not born, and It does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2|| You sing lullabies to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes. Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Akal Purkh and Master is subject to birth. ||3|| It is not born, does not die, and does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1136

Cordially,

Virinder
 

BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Guru Sahib tells us to crush the 5 theives into bits, these separate us from God. Union with God is acheived when attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed are out of your system. Otherwise we are living in heaven or hell on this earth. You can choose which road out of these you want to take. But a Sikh takes none of these roads and takes the road less traveled, which is to gain union/realize/merge with God. There is no heaven and there is no hell, there is only God.
That ONLY happens unless you are dead or have some sort of brain damage.
Normal humans feel those emotions. To throw them out of your system is to throw the engine out of a car.

I wouldn't put it as harshly as you did. A Sikh must rid of the extremes of attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed, not the actual emotions themselves. extreme = too much
We all have those are some level but if this level rises too much then illness will develop. For example, too much anger will cause stress, which in the long run will cause damage to your body, to put it simply. But anger is a great source of SHORT TERM stress, which will boost your system, provide adrenaline. The sort of thing Sikhs used to their advantage in wars!
So we must keep them controlled, and not get rid of them.
 

Randip Singh

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That ONLY happens unless you are dead or have some sort of brain damage.
Normal humans feel those emotions. To throw them out of your system is to throw the engine out of a car.

I wouldn't put it as harshly as you did. A Sikh must rid of the extremes of attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed, not the actual emotions themselves. extreme = too much
We all have those are some level but if this level rises too much then illness will develop. For example, too much anger will cause stress, which in the long run will cause damage to your body, to put it simply. But anger is a great source of SHORT TERM stress, which will boost your system, provide adrenaline. The sort of thing Sikhs used to their advantage in wars!
So we must keep them controlled, and not get rid of them.

I think both you and Singh are going along the correct lines, but the issue to really watch out for is OBSESSION with the 5 thieves. That is what Bani is getting at.

Someone obsessed say with Hankaar, or image of himself becomes so selfish that they only think about themselves and too hell with everyone else. They think they are better than others. They are easy to play up too, for example I was dealing with a legal issue yesterday, and the solicitor was being somewhat unco-oporative. I noticed he was wearing a wig yet he had a picture of himself in his youth in the office. I complemented him on how handsome he was in his youth. His judgement became so clouded because I had pumped his ego up so much he was willing to do anything for me after that. Call me manipulative, but people like this are easily played up, that they become almost intoxicated with the thieves. They are called thieves because they rob you of reason (like this man).
 

spnadmin

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Singh ji

I think Randip ji has been more than patient with constant personal bashing and name-calling. Show that you are willing to come to terms with forum guidelines and delete this additional accusation voluntarily. That would show that you are sincere about wanting to have a meaningful conversation.

Otherwise I will delete it. Thank you
aad002
 
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