That's a misnomer. Guru Nanak Sahib never said it was ok to eat a corpse. He asked Bhai Lehna Ji to do it as a test only. Please note that there was no actual corpse-eating performed. It was a test of dedication.
Also, Guru Nanak Sahib never said it was not ok to eat an egg.
I agree that one should not partake of Amrit from a cult or sect, and as such one should use their wisdom in making the decision. However, this does not mean that we should start questioning everything that we personally would find difficult to do, or don't want to do. Instead we should strive to live up to the standard.
As an example, if I find it difficult to wake up in at Amrit vela, I should make efforts to do so and try my best and improve daily, instead of performing mental gymnastics to try and prove that the requirement is just another ritual or not real Sikhi etc. etc.
Gurfateh!
AoG
- May 9, 2006
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Admin ji, I wasn't spruiking the sakhi, I was thrown by your reference to a 2011 paper and thought I'd post something from an older English source.
AoG ji - no body has been talking about finding a rehat that suits their own needs. Linzer jio has only been careful about the extraneous conditions set by some groups over-and-above the standard Sikh Rehat Maryada.
And in this day-and-age when everyone conducting an amrit sanchar has their own list of rules, you do have to be careful.
AoG ji - no body has been talking about finding a rehat that suits their own needs. Linzer jio has only been careful about the extraneous conditions set by some groups over-and-above the standard Sikh Rehat Maryada.
And in this day-and-age when everyone conducting an amrit sanchar has their own list of rules, you do have to be careful.
ActsOfGod ji
I knew you would reply as you did. Let's take a look If Guru Nanak never said "eat a corpse" but only suggested a "test" then why on earth would various panj pyare use this story as a rule or proof for anything? That is kind of like flying blind. If Guru Nanak never said "don't eat an egg" where do the same various panj pyare get the authority to forbid eggs.
Now down to the brass tacks. The earliest of the janamsakhis that can be authenticated were written after 1658. That is 120 years beyond the death of Guru Nanak, and gives the Minas lots of time to make up stories that fit their mischievous agenda.
I notice you did not ask any questions of me about the Mina or Mahant conspiracies.
No where does Bhai Gurdas mention a corpse, a dead body, or a white shroud in conjunction with Bhai Lehna and he was a contemporary of Bhai Lehna, living through to the time of Guru Hargobind. He also does not portray the Gurus as prone to giving tests as proofs of devotion or obedience. Sikhi is a way that is chosen freely. Kakkars are chosen, and the rehat is chosen. You don't have to pass a test, or eat a corpse. What a sorry state we are in when our dhyaan is reduced to whether or not we permit another human to eat an egg.
ishna ji I intended to get back to you on Macauliffe's account of this story, but need to take a break.
Sorry, but it sounds to me like he's very attached to the idea of eating eggs and using eggs in his occupation (as a chef). So much so that he made extra sure that he might not be asked to give that up.
We can be attached to anything in life ("Moh"), and justify it in a million ways. Personally speaking, if you are not willing to give it ALL up, then how can you walk in there with a clear conscience and ask for Amrit? I'm sure others will disagree, since everyone has their own viewpoints.
Here is a person who is preparing to go take Amrit. Just looking at it from an outside perspective, it seems like the focus is on entirely the wrong thing.
And yet there are certain lines drawn at smoking and drinking. Essentially, what is the difference between an egg and some wine? Once you're involved in that discussion, then you're really lost in the weeds.
If one takes this approach, you could go on arguing forever and get nowhere.
In any case, please forgive me for any mistakes or anything I've said that is out of line.
Gurfateh!
AoG
Whoops - let's try again.
Macauliffe himself commented on the lag in time between the telling of the sakhis and the life of Guru Nanak. He was open to the possibility that much of them were fictional. The interesting thing about Macauliffe the historian is that he, like a modern historian, critiques his sources. He evaluates them. He does not simply report something as gospel truth.
Just as a detail. The work by Dr. Kirpal Singh was first published hard-copy 2004. The book was posted to the Internet in 2011.
One other thing: Macauliffe's mission was to tell the story of Guru Nanak. Dr. Kirpal Singh's purpose is to evaluate, analyze, compare, critique the stories that have been told. So he would need a body of older sources to carry out his work.
Am I that predictable?
This is definitely curious and I'm interested in knowing why no mention was made of it by Bhai Gurdas Ji.
As for eating or not eating an egg: personally I don't really care. I was not advocating "no eggs" or "eggs". I was merely reacting to what seemed like an overwhelming focus on a potential dietary restriction when (as I see it) there would be a lot more other things on one's mind.
Perhaps I read the whole thread out of context.
Gurfateh!
AoG
ActsOGod ji
Just about everyone is predictable when you have read nearly every SPN post for let's say the last 7 years. So I have a pretty good idea where people are headed after they comment 3 or 4 times on a topic.
But yes! Sometimes I am surprised.
Just about everyone is predictable when you have read nearly every SPN post for let's say the last 7 years. So I have a pretty good idea where people are headed after they comment 3 or 4 times on a topic.
But yes! Sometimes I am surprised.
- Jan 31, 2011
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The one thing that puts Sikhism ahead of other religions is the need for a brain, in some religions, a brain is not a crucial part of the process, you listen, follow and do, thinking is not a requirement, and if that floats your boat, good luck and best wishes,
However, thinking, and use of brains is practically unavoidable for Sikhs, in my view anyway, to that end, developing a litmus testing kit is of huge importance, take the foundations of Sikhism, and judge every sakhi on that, both stories above fail that test, they belong in the Bible really, they do nothing other than confirm that doing what your told is what counts rather than thinking. Just do what your told, regardless of what it is, and heaven awaits. You also write that a Singh should follow Gurmat completely blind and ignore their own intelligence, this is a breeding ground for internal warfare, and by stating this you condemn many Sikhs to a lifetime of madness and struggle.
You would do anything that a panj pyare would tell you do? Given the many rehats that exist? speak for yourself!
The religion, establishment, leadership and support mechanism do not exist anymore, Sikhism is full of great pretenders, I trust no one, there are too many damn agendas.
Linzer, my heart swells for you that you are going about this in such a logical way, taking your little litmus testing kit and applying it to see if the result is true or false, good luck
A litmus test and critical thinking are all well and good. And btw I didn't say that one shouldn't think and use your brain.
The premise in the creation of the Khalsa was that wherever the 5 were assembled, there Guru Sahib himself is. The Sikhs are required to accept and respect this edict from 10th Guru Sahib.
If you don't wish to accept that, it is of course your choice. And I understand that there are so many groups today all doing their own thing. So one has to be careful to be able to understand whether some groups are off fabricating nonsense or doing things in an anti-Gurmat way. One should stay away from such groups, as I have mentioned before.
However, my point was that once you start questioning Guru Sahib, you're on your way down a slippery slope.
It's not at all about the Christian notion that "do what you're told and Heaven awaits."
If you take some time to study 11th Guru Sahib, you will find that obedience to Guru is an essential part of the Sikh path. Yes, use your brain and litmus test and critical thinking. But at a certain point, you must abandon your own evil intellect ("manmat") to accept Guru's intellect. If you are unwilling or incapable of doing so, then you cannot call yourself a Sikh of the Guru. You might call yourself a Sikh, but you are a wordly Sikh. And you can rationalize it however you want.
Gufateh!
AoG
- Jul 20, 2012
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I was going to do Amrit at Bangla Sahib... They do go by the SGPC rehet... I was in contact with the DSGMC prior to going.
I didn't end up getting to do it this time purely because of timing... near Diwali is nuts... trying to go a bit earlier next fall.
I didn't end up getting to do it this time purely because of timing... near Diwali is nuts... trying to go a bit earlier next fall.
- Jan 31, 2011
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oh dear in that case we have a big problem, because , depending on which 5 you encounter, Guru Sahib will be telling you that eating meat is ok, eating meat is not ok, eating eggs is ok, etc etc
Now I am sure that was not meant to happen in the big scheme of things, so how do you square that?
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I think a Sikh should use their brains when considering what is told to them. That is what Guru Nanak did.
I have no doubt that gurbani is the truth. Therefore, when things don't make sense, it is due to a misinterpretation of gurbani, or someone adding their own spice to the mix.
I have no doubt that gurbani is the truth. Therefore, when things don't make sense, it is due to a misinterpretation of gurbani, or someone adding their own spice to the mix.
- May 9, 2006
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When considering amrit sanchar and what it means to join the khalsa fauj, I'm reminded of the French Foreign Legion.
When someone joins the French Foregin Legion they are stripped of their identity. They have their heads shaved, their faces are shaved, their personal posessions are held in trust, they wear the same clothes, sing the same songs in the same language (even if that isn't their native language), eat the same food, etc, and do precisely what they are told by their commanders, no matter how ridiculous. The idea is to beat the individual self out of the leigonnaires and to make them obey no matter what. It's what had made them such a remarkable army. In any army, independent thinking of the soldiers is counter productive - you must do what your commander tells you to do.
In the sense of joining Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa army, it all made perfect sense. There were commanders, there was an army, there was purpose and meaning.
Today...
When someone joins the French Foregin Legion they are stripped of their identity. They have their heads shaved, their faces are shaved, their personal posessions are held in trust, they wear the same clothes, sing the same songs in the same language (even if that isn't their native language), eat the same food, etc, and do precisely what they are told by their commanders, no matter how ridiculous. The idea is to beat the individual self out of the leigonnaires and to make them obey no matter what. It's what had made them such a remarkable army. In any army, independent thinking of the soldiers is counter productive - you must do what your commander tells you to do.
In the sense of joining Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa army, it all made perfect sense. There were commanders, there was an army, there was purpose and meaning.
Today...
ishna ji
Your points are well taken. But I honestly cannot believe that that is what Guru Gobind Singh had in mind. These were spiritual warriors. The French Foreign Legion is an army drawn from many lands, but loyal to France. It was and is a refuge for thugs, some on the lam - no questions are asked. There had to be more to the Khalsa than code and uniform, and the code and the uniform had to represent more than military discipline. Unfortunately we get next to no help understanding what happened because the only alleged.eye-witness account comes from a Muslim/Persian source, and his account went viral in his time. And we have the anecdotal information of more than a century later. Finally, today code and uniform seem to be the way too many amritdhari define their identities. I don't think we have it right yet.
Your points are well taken. But I honestly cannot believe that that is what Guru Gobind Singh had in mind. These were spiritual warriors. The French Foreign Legion is an army drawn from many lands, but loyal to France. It was and is a refuge for thugs, some on the lam - no questions are asked. There had to be more to the Khalsa than code and uniform, and the code and the uniform had to represent more than military discipline. Unfortunately we get next to no help understanding what happened because the only alleged.eye-witness account comes from a Muslim/Persian source, and his account went viral in his time. And we have the anecdotal information of more than a century later. Finally, today code and uniform seem to be the way too many amritdhari define their identities. I don't think we have it right yet.
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Sisji
I beg to differ, Sikhs follow the truth, no matter how ridiculous.
- May 9, 2006
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SaintSoldier1699
SPNer
I think an important point to note was the first Amrit Sanchar, we all know was unique, no one knew the reason for it, there was suspense in all those attending when the 10th Master called the gathering at Anandpur.
When the call for sacrifice came, people were shocked, scared, cowering, hiding, thinking Guru had lost his mind. Yet only five bold, courageous ones came forth because they understood the meaning of Sikhi, Gurbani had already taught them prior that giving the head for the truth was necessary to tread on the path of truth and this was them doing it in action.
Following this, there were no more calls for heads during an Amrit Sanchar, why? Because the standard was set and it was up to the initiated individuals after that event to live to work to that set standard.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world so, being aware of other practices, wanting to avoid surpluses being added to requirements by certain groups, wanting to be a collective does not undermine your want to take Amrit, or that you want a convenient path, because the true test comes when its called upon you in action, then regardless if you ate egg or read 5 or 7 bani's, its all about the deed done in the moment required. Like the first panj, actions spoke much more than words that day.
When the call for sacrifice came, people were shocked, scared, cowering, hiding, thinking Guru had lost his mind. Yet only five bold, courageous ones came forth because they understood the meaning of Sikhi, Gurbani had already taught them prior that giving the head for the truth was necessary to tread on the path of truth and this was them doing it in action.
Following this, there were no more calls for heads during an Amrit Sanchar, why? Because the standard was set and it was up to the initiated individuals after that event to live to work to that set standard.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world so, being aware of other practices, wanting to avoid surpluses being added to requirements by certain groups, wanting to be a collective does not undermine your want to take Amrit, or that you want a convenient path, because the true test comes when its called upon you in action, then regardless if you ate egg or read 5 or 7 bani's, its all about the deed done in the moment required. Like the first panj, actions spoke much more than words that day.
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