- Jan 31, 2011
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size isn't everythingIt's set to way more than 10000.
size isn't everythingIt's set to way more than 10000.
ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਤਾਤੀ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥ ਚਉਗਿਰਦ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਾਰ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਦੀਆ ਏਕਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਏ ਤਿਨਿ ਰਖਨਹਾਰਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਭਈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਏ ਸਹਾਈ ॥੨॥੧੫॥੭੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 819}i remember during some times of hardship...i awoke in the early hours and meditated on the shabad "tatee waho na lagaeee, parbrahm sarnaeee...chaugiradh hamaree ram kar dukh lagee n paee"...
...I take it your middle name is "honey" ! You're too sweeeeeet !i could understand these lines of shabad...in my humble ardaas i asked for forgiveness for not knowing the complete shabad off by heart...
Are you suggesting that some shabds are more beautiful than others? I thought all shabads were equally beautiful...you definitely know how to pick your shabads. This one has a beautiful ring to it.
The "nucleus" ram kar [ਰਾਮ ਕਾਰ] around which Guru Arjun Dev Ji builds the rest of the Shabd has its roots in the great Indian epic Ramayana [poem]
Guru Ji captilises on the main theme of the poem, God the protector [ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਰਣਾਈ] and works through to distil and flavour the entire text.
In so doing, Guru Ji praises the achitect God is [ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ] and how by remaining steadfast to the covenant [ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਦੀਆ], made with Him is one saved from all difficulties.
Moreover, the name of God [nam] acts as the red ring [ram kar], within which one is protected indefinitely.
The idea of God the protector originated from the great tale of Ramayna. It goes something like this:
Guru Arjun Dev Ji places emphasis on the relationship between humankind and God. And, how those that remain faithful remain protected.
- Ram is told to go to an exile for fourteen years in the forest. His wife Seeta and brother Lakshman decide to join him, and all three spend the fourteen years in exile together. While in exile, Seeta sees this beautiful deer and requests her husband Ram to catch it for her. Ram sets out to catch the deer, but before he sets out on the chase he instruct his brother not to leave Seeta on her own in case she get's abducted by the evil Ravaan. Ram disappears into the thick of the forest in pursuit of the deer, and moments later a loud scream is heard. Seeta panics, thinking something has happened to Ram, she hurries Lakshman to go after Ram. Lakshman declines because Ram had left specific instructions for Seeta not to be left unattended . Moral dilemma, what to do ? Seeta comes up with a solution, "round ring the house O' Lakshman with "ram-kar" so no evil can enter". Lakshman accordingly, draws a line around the home and instructs Seeta not to go outside it. This line [ram kar lakeer] has divinal properties so that no evil could enter.......
Are you suggesting that some shabds are more beautiful than others? I thought all shabads were equally beautiful.
If our Gurus ensured that the roots behind the SGGS were in the main Vedic, then what is the point of Sikhism? Why not just be a Hindu?
God does not protect me, and I am Sikh....
This covenant, wouldn't be about mumbling repeatedly would it?
In any case, what have you got against difficulties? It is the difficulties in my life that have chiselled whatever character I have, if one is saved from these, one has no character, are you scared of difficulties?
Well it did not help Bhai Mani Singh hugely, I would not say he was protected indefinitely, or any of the other masses of Sikhs who died quite horrible deaths, it did not help the events of 1984, Could you enlighten me as to when in Sikh history, chanting the name of god, has helped in anyway at all?, or at least provided some sort of protection, forget indefinitely, even momentarily would suffice.
Your post does nothing more than to encourage the already popular notion that evil can be countered by rituals, it is thanks to this thinking the back pages of Des Pardes is full of loonies who all promise to draw lines for you, sometimes when I am bored, I ring them all and give them a mouthful, bless them, they are used to being treated as demi gods and babas, they often threaten to curse me and put spells on me, certainly beats watching cats on youtube!
Lines round houses that deflect evil, what do you think Guru Nanak ji would have to say about
..no, I said it has a beautiful "ring" and not the "finger" wearing it.Are you suggesting that some shabds are more beautiful than others? I thought all shabads were equally beautiful.
...just as the head cannot be severed from the body without spilling blood, neither can the spirit and the letter of SGGSJ be preserved and interpreted without reference to Hinduism.If our Gurus ensured that the roots behind the SGGS were in the main Vedic, then what is the point of Sikhism? Why not just be a Hindu?
..pass !God does not protect me, and I am Sikh....
..nam simran you call mumbling and a host of others you attest as vile; definitely a master plan for something good n great waiting to happen when the mind fully develops, for why otherwise such a noble task to so simple a creature?This covenant, wouldn't be about mumbling repeatedly would it?
..granted ! No heaven without hell and no gain without pain. I was generalizing, but the fact that you've gone past the Barbican was not an edifying spectacle because its drawn out of context.In any case, what have you got against difficulties? It is the difficulties in my life that have chiselled whatever character I have, if one is saved from these, one has no character, are you scared of difficulties?
..see above, no pain no gain. Just as the knife was favoured by evolution to the point of invention despite its inherent dangers, so too were the struggles optimised by evolution for the perfect race to evolve, meaning you bro.Well it did not help Bhai Mani Singh hugely, I would not say he was protected indefinitely, or any of the other masses of Sikhs who died quite horrible deaths, it did not help the events of 1984, Could you enlighten me as to when in Sikh history, chanting the name of god, has helped in anyway at all?, or at least provided some sort of protection, forget indefinitely, even momentarily would suffice.
...Sikhism is "truth", who am I to turn anything around, I'm useless against the Will of the Almighty.Sikhism is not a carrot and stick religion, why are you trying to turn it into one?
...I'm only the messenger and whatever I've said to Chaz ref shabd on page 819 SGGSJ was incidental and not actual. Guru Arjun Dev Ji capitalized on an essential element to hammer home a message and that message was, "Chaz don't worry, you're my son and I'm with you". I'm sure your parents must have at some stage in your life gave you that kind of assurance , no ? But yes, baba and the rest I'm with you. Hit'em where it hurts, meaning, stay away.Your post does nothing more than to encourage the already popular notion that evil can be countered by rituals, it is thanks to this thinking the back pages of Des Pardes is full of loonies who all promise to draw lines for you, sometimes when I am bored, I ring them all and give them a mouthful, bless them, they are used to being treated as demi gods and babas, they often threaten to curse me and put spells on me, certainly beats watching cats on youtube
.no, I said it has a beautiful "ring" and not the "finger" wearing it.
..just as the head cannot be severed from the body without spilling blood, neither can the spirit and the letter of SGGSJ be preserved and interpreted without reference to Hinduism.
..nam simran you call mumbling and a host of others you attest as vile; definitely a master plan for something good n great waiting to happen when the mind fully develops, for why otherwise such a noble task to so simple a creature?
.see above, no pain no gain. Just as the knife was favoured by evolution to the point of invention despite its inherent dangers, so too were the struggles optimised by evolution for the perfect race to evolve, meaning you bro.
...Sikhism is "truth", who am I to turn anything around, I'm useless against the Will of the Almighty.
..I'm only the messenger
then what was the point of saying it? do you think you could restrict yourself to just saying actual things we can debate and you can take responsibility for? rather than incidental things that mean nothing.nd whatever I've said to Chaz ref shabd on page 819 SGGSJ was incidental and not actual
Guru Arjun Dev Ji capitalized on an essential element to hammer home a message and that message was, "Chaz don't worry, you're my son and I'm with you"
God bless you !
I can think of no other religion in the whole world that would concede that a different religion needed to be understood first.
what else does
..just as the head cannot be severed from the body without spilling blood, neither can the spirit and the letter of SGGSJ be preserved and interpreted without reference to Hinduism.
mean?
I think he means (and correct me if I am wrong Original Ji) That at that time and culture, was predominantly Hindu and majority of those turning to Sikhism came from Hindu background, therefore our Gurus used reference to Hindu concepts in Gurbani in order to explain context.
Again, agree fully, maybe he will accept that what he was actually referencing was that Hinduism exists in the SGGS as a reference point for those coming into the religion from the same, and nothing more.This however does not mean that it has to be 100% one way or or the other though... as in, it doesn't mean that ALL Hindu concepts were condemned, nor does it mean we are "just an offshoot" of Hinduism either. Certainly SOME Hindu concepts were condemned, those that do not have any value in progressing us spiritually. Like useless ritual (what is the point of going through useless ritual when we can just go withint ourselves to find God)? And Idol worship (what use is worshipping a FORM, or a reproduction of what we THINK is God's form, when God is everywhere and in everything?) But this doesn't mean that every single concept in Hinduism was condemned. Truth can be found everywhere and bits of it can be found in every religion. So just because we share some concepts in common, does not mean we are an 'offshoot'. But yes, Original Ji I believe was referencing how Hinduism would have been the context people could relate to in that time, when Sikhi was beginning, so that's why so much reference to it. He was not trying to say we WERE an offshoot of Hinduism.
I agree ! Shabd taken in its literal and native form is a "word" put together by the use of letters to effect a particular sound, i.e. word. The bindi, tipi, kana, sihari, bihari, etc [Gurmukhi alphabet] in essence are the constituent parts of a shabd. And indeed, like you've said all shabds have a beautiful ring to it, they do indeed. The science of grammar and literature hold their place respectively in order to communicate both the letter and the spirit of the communicator.we could go on like this for some time, that is ok, I am ok for time, are you saying that some shabads do not have the same beautiful ring? In my mind all shabads have beautiful rings, do you not feel the same?
..no, not at all ! It's because evolution favoured Sikhism to be the best next thing for both humanity and society in the bigger scheme of things.I see, Sikhism is a sub religion to Hinduism then?
...no, not all ! No its not impossible, but a necessity. Take an apple for example, the flower that precedes the apple brings about the apple which then becomes an eatable fruit. Without the flower, the bloom, the bud, the tree and all the rest, there is no apple. It cannot claim existence independent of them. Similarly, Sikhism was brought about by the many evolutionary experimentations of which Hinduism is but one, a precursor, necessary to produce a modified version to spearhead humanity to the next level,Are you suggesting that it is impossible to know about Sikhism unless you refer to Hinduism?
I'm sorry, no offence intended !...SPN is a place where I feel the spirit to be free. This is where I don't have to be formal because I'm "talking" and not "drafting" per se. I feel I don't have to cross the T's and dot the I's. I consider it to be my leisure time and also a beautiful way to remain connected with the shabd of my forefathers. Moreover, what sets us apart from the rest of creation is that we play with objects and language, we can go beyond the literal, golden and the mischief [rules of interpretation] because human play is "imagination" unlimited.Vile? Oh I suppose you are an advocate and therefore play by the rules of such, I do not recall ever using the word vile, pointless, but not vile, there is a difference.
..come on H ! you know Singh is King ! Its a concept mera chota phaji....rest will become history ! Just think for a minute, one individual against the giants [Islam, Hinduism], the unstoppable Nanak. You see, evolution seeks to bring out the best, not just for survival sake but for the ultimate perfection that humankind is. What better vehicle than Sikh.Waffle, what perfect race? How about a straight answer for a change?
..do I have a free will or am I dancing to another's tune ?Please do not blame the almighty for your own will
..what brings about an agenda and utterings with which your preoccupation seem to be edified or indeed, disedified ?your own agenda and your own utterings
..depends on the motive and the act, that is to say, voluntary or involuntary performed ! Morally speaking, no, its not too much to ask.Is taking responsibility for your own words too much to ask?
LOL....I've done n dusted courts, more of a policing role now on Governments and multinational corporations in the light of human rights.how convenient! I will try that one next time I am in court
..just as a pushcart is used to carry the golf clubs, but doesn't form part of the "actual" game of golf in itself [Law], it is however, considered part of the toolkit without which the "actual" form of the game of golf remains incomplete. Similarly, interpreting, analysing, exploring and decoding SGGSJ remains incomplete if incidental, circumstantial, environmental, social, cultural and genetic data is not referred to for completeness and accuracy sake, justice will not be done.then what was the point of saying it?
..when n where deemed appropriate, of course I will !do you think you could restrict yourself to just saying actual things we can debate and you can take responsibility for?
....that is your opinion Sir !rather than incidental things that mean nothing.
..from a narrative perspective, since that being the primary function with which I was engaged, I'd say it's a subjective net portion of what the entire poem set out to convey.sorry is this incidental or actual?
...lol...too good H ! I'm not as smart as you when it comes to colour coordination's ? Looking at all the colourful medals decorated alongside your name makes the wannabe like me approach you for advice ! you're popular and that's a mark of a good man. You as little as {censored} on the forum people stand up and sniff, let alone your commendable writing skills.Maybe you could use different colours for each just so we know what is debatable and not.
...not the standard god bless, but the heartfelt edification of a Sikh.ah of course, the standard god bless you at the end, well gee thanks for that smurf
Credit where it is due; you are an expandable asset providing for the likes of me a platform to fully unload
..no, not at all ! It's because evolution favoured Sikhism to be the best next thing for both humanity and society in the bigger scheme of things.
..no, not all ! No its not impossible, but a necessity. Take an apple for example, the flower that precedes the apple brings about the apple which then becomes an eatable fruit. Without the flower, the bloom, the bud, the tree and all the rest, an apple cannot claim existence independent of them. Similarly, Sikhism was brought about by the many evolutionary experimentations to produce such a flavour, which is "just about right" a taste for humanity as a whole.
Yes, I remember feeling that here'm sorry, no offence intended !...SPN is a place where I feel the spirit to be free.
Oh you have been formal here in your timeThis is where I don't have to be formal because I'm "talking" and not "drafting" per se.
can we? really? without someone from the big bad world bringing in rules and regulations?I feel I don't have to cross the T's and dot the I's. I consider it to be my leisure time and also a beautiful way to remain connected with the shabd of my forefathers. Moreover, what sets us apart from the rest of creation is that we play with objects and language, we can go beyond the literal, golden and the mischief [rules of interpretation] because human play is "imagination" unlimited.
Sikhism in its current state does not look too perfect to me..come on H ! you know Singh is King ! Its a concept mera chota phaji....rest will become history ! Just think for a minute, one individual against the giants [Islam, Hinduism], the unstoppable Nanak. You see, evolution seeks to bring out the best, not just for survival sake but for the ultimate perfection that humankind is. What better vehicle than Sikh.
Hitler was popular......lol...too good H ! I'm not as smart as you when it comes to colour coordination's ? Looking at all the colourful medals decorated alongside your name makes the wannabe like me approach you for advice ! you're popular and that's a mark of a good man. You as little as {censored word, do not repeat.} on the forum people stand up and sniff, let alone your commendable writing skills.
Sikhism shares concepts and thoughts with Hinduism for sure, but they are common thoughts and concepts not Hindu ones.
Harry Ji, this is exactly what I have said before, when referring to things such as births and deaths (transmigration) etc just because both Sikhism and Hinduism share these concepts does not make them Vedic concepts, nor does it mean we are just following Vedic philosophy. This is what I meant by truth is truth.
....its not about conceding and succeeding, its about analysing the true or false of a statement in terms of the words used. We're talking about Gurbani and the rules of interpretation. Take for example "hari", a name given to God in Hindu religion; is that true or false ? And, then to revamp and modify it as Harry coz it sounds good , convention deem it inadmissible without referencing to its origins.I can think of no other religion in the whole world that would concede that a different religion needed to be understood first.
Originalji....its not about conceding and succeeding, its about analysing the true or false of a statement in terms of the words used. We're talking about Gurbani and the rules of interpretation. Take for example "hari", a name given to God in Hindu religion; is that true or false ? And, then to revamp and modify it as Harry coz it sounds good , convention deem it inadmissible without referencing to its origins.
H, if you will; dig deep and look at your family history. The middle names you will come up with will be the likes of, dev, das, chand , lal, and so forth. They are all male names in Hindu society. Guru Gobind, purely for social reform changed it to Singh. So in relation to what is true and what is false one would consider the following statement: A Singh is a male Sikh.
Yes, if an argument could be had it would be to support an ontological claim that the true nature of "hari" is manifested in KAURSINGH [SIKH], dropping-off as it were, Hinduism as a functional entity in the course of events.
H, when I was young and handsome I meditated on the four cardinal virtues:are you what they call a Hindu-Sikh?
H..this is getting to close for comfort, next you'll be asking me to drop my long-johns for inspection, hey ! As for the point in question; I've never entertained it as such, been too busy looking good as King Singh. I suppose there is no denial in that the father of my faith was conceived by a Hindu mother and the seed deposited for fertilization was that of a Hindu father, which makes me organically Hindu and religiously Sikh. So yes, not just me but the whole of Sikh is Hindu-Sikh. Goodness gracious, you're a genius, I never thought of it like that. !interesting reply, my own would be
- I do not wish to be human, humans are conceited liars, obsessed with ego and image. Animals, on the other hand, just be, I would say I am more animal than human,
- I am neither man nor woman, I have traits that apply to both sexes, I am a person.
- I was born here, I am English.
- I hustle.
gee that was fun smurf, but now we have had a bit of fun, how about a straight answer, if at all that is possible, pretty please and all that.
do you consider yourself a Hindu-Sikh, let me make it easier for you, its either a yes, or a no.
H..this is getting to close for comfort, next you'll be asking me to drop my long-johns for inspection, hey !
As for the point in question; I've never entertained it as such, been too busy looking good as King Singh
I suppose there is no denial in that the father of my faith was conceived by a Hindu mother and the seed deposited for fertilization was that of a Hindu father, which makes me organically Hindu and religiously Sikh. So yes, not just me but the whole of Sikh is Hindu-Sikh. Goodness gracious, you're a genius, I never thought of it like that. !
Whilst we're at it, can you scan to see if I'm a bit of a Moslem, Buddhist, Christian and the rest, for if that'd be true than "bingo" unity in diversity confirmed. Isn't that what Sikhism is ?
More flak, no substance, this is getting to be a habit Originalji.Waiting earnestly for a response ! Cor' I'm all excited, can't wait ! Thank you Baba Harry Ji.
PS can we name you as the "midwife" for helping plonkers like me give birth to universal truths.