- Jan 31, 2011
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size isn't everythingIt's set to way more than 10000.
Hard Talk Taking One Liners Out Of Context From Gurbani To Allow Intellectual Independence?
- Thread starter Original
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ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਤਾਤੀ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥ ਚਉਗਿਰਦ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਾਰ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਦੀਆ ਏਕਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਏ ਤਿਨਿ ਰਖਨਹਾਰਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਭਈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਏ ਸਹਾਈ ॥੨॥੧੫॥੭੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 819}
..you definitely know how to pick your shabds. This one has a beautiful ring to it. The "nucleus" ram kar [ਰਾਮ ਕਾਰ] around which Guru Arjun Dev Ji builds the rest of the Shabd has its roots in the great Indian epic Ramayana [poem]. Guru Ji captilises on the main theme of the poem, God the protector [ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਰਣਾਈ] and works through to distil and flavour the entire text. In so doing, Guru Ji praises the achitect God is [ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਈ] and how by remaining steadfast to the covenant [ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਦੀਆ], made with Him is one saved from all difficulties. Moreover, the name of God [nam] acts as the red ring [ram kar], within which one is protected indefinitely.
The idea of God the protector originated from the great tale of Ramayna. It goes something like this:
- Ram is told to go to an exile for fourteen years in the forest. His wife Seeta and brother Lakshman decide to join him, and all three spend the fourteen years in exile together. While in exile, Seeta sees this beautiful deer and requests her husband Ram to catch it for her. Ram sets out to catch the deer, but before he sets out on the chase he instruct his brother not to leave Seeta on her own in case she get's abducted by the evil Ravaan. Ram disappears into the thick of the forest in pursuit of the deer, and moments later a loud scream is heard. Seeta panics, thinking something has happened to Ram, she hurries Lakshman to go after Ram. Lakshman declines because Ram had left specific instructions for Seeta not to be left unattended . Moral dilemma, what to do ? Seeta comes up with a solution, "round ring the house O' Lakshman with "ram-kar" so no evil can enter". Lakshman accordingly, draws a line around the home and instructs Seeta not to go outside it. This line [ram kar lakeer] has divinal properties so that no evil could enter.......
...I take it your middle name is "honey" ! You're too sweeeeeet !
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Are you suggesting that some shabds are more beautiful than others? I thought all shabads were equally beautiful.
If our Gurus ensured that the roots behind the SGGS were in the main Vedic, then what is the point of Sikhism? Why not just be a Hindu?
God does not protect me, and I am Sikh....
This covenant, wouldn't be about mumbling repeatedly would it?
In any case, what have you got against difficulties? It is the difficulties in my life that have chiselled whatever character I have, if one is saved from these, one has no character, are you scared of difficulties?
Well it did not help Bhai Mani Singh hugely, I would not say he was protected indefinitely, or any of the other masses of Sikhs who died quite horrible deaths, it did not help the events of 1984, Could you enlighten me as to when in Sikh history, chanting the name of god, has helped in anyway at all?, or at least provided some sort of protection, forget indefinitely, even momentarily would suffice.
Sikhism is not a carrot and stick religion, why are you trying to turn it into one? I am not faithful, I guess I am toast then!
Your post does nothing more than to encourage the already popular notion that evil can be countered by rituals, it is thanks to this thinking the back pages of Des Pardes is full of loonies who all promise to draw lines for you, sometimes when I am bored, I ring them all and give them a mouthful, bless them, they are used to being treated as demi gods and babas, they often threaten to curse me and put spells on me, certainly beats watching cats on youtube!
Lines round houses that deflect evil, what do you think Guru Nanak ji would have to say about that?
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Sometimes it feels like you're just trying to pick a fight Harry lol...
There are so many shabads...and yes they are all equal, but some ring deep inside when you read them, sing them, meditate on them because they seem to have a bearing on your current life situations...almost like they were meant for you, at that moment in time...please understand that, its the same with anything you read...when you pick up a newspaper...you read some stories then one just hits you for some reason...
but now you'll probably reply back with "so now you're comparing SGGS Ji to a newspaper"
if i become a Hindu, i might get entangled in deity worship...idol worship...amongst many other things...
where i need to be is Waheguru...so Sikhi helps me bypass the rest that doesn't matter.
The direction is still the same...as some Hindus, muslims, buddists all follow...to go within...through the stargate of the body
doesn't matter what you call yourself, hindu, muslim , sikh...
i used to say the same thing..whenever something went wrong...then i did something about it...i took a dive into SGGS ji...and now i'm drowning...in a beautiful way...within myself...and the protection is visible...whether i'm hacked to pieces, or live the longest life...
stiill haven't discerned the difference between saying something mindlessly, and saying something with love, heart, feeling, emotion, drive, thirst...
come one...seriously? ever told someone you love them...and felt something deep within at the same time...ever said i love you, and not felt anything at all.....can't you tell the difference...?
i know you're asking Original...but i feel compelled to reply...
why such a simple interpretation of Saving? do you think this just means being spared difficulty...or being picked up from a difficult situation and put into a safe place?
maybe its the strength, dignity, will power, perseverance, dedication, focus, awareness to get out of difficulties....as you have, and may still be fighting...
i believe this is Waheguru at work...and helps us evolve spiritually...Dukh Daroo...
if you're spared physical death, god helped you...
if you die...where was your God..
such an old fashioned way of looking at things..
yet some Guru's went through Torture...and according to them died such a sweet death...as per Gods will...do we not learn from this? as Gurbani flowed from their mouths, and their Dyan \ Soul was already immersed in Waheguru....what physical action could torture them...What did we learn from this?
and all we can come up with is "where was God for all the good sikhs that died such horrible deaths...seriously? we've missed the point of everything they tried to show us...the power of naam...of life continuing after death....not to fear death...the souls evolutions is Vast compared to a single lifetime...
become a Jedi Harry Ji...
Even star wars has truth in it...
The jedi's accept death, they know it's not the end...the meditate on the force...they use the connection to help others and serve others...
no baba is going to do this for you...only your will to connect with naam, the ever flowing life force \ god energy that is flowing through you this very second...
feel the force harry ji
Good morning Everyone,
Let us enjoy our conversations, make it pleasurable, creative and a productive activity that engages our minds and our hearts with people we respect.
The father of the Sikh Panth, Guru Gobind Singh demonstrated this when he wrote the Zafarnama and handed it to Bhai Daya Singh to hand deliver to Arungzeb.
"Why the letter Guru Ji when it should be the sword ?" Cried the Panth.
Guru Ji said, 'the power of the written word [shabd] is mightier than the wielding sword'.
What transpired within a very short-span thereafter, is that Arungzeb died following the read of the Zafarnama. Moral being, "truth" prevails "justice" done.
Let us be the seekers of truth and not ridicule ourselves with collateral collection. Sikh rule will continue and grow from strength to strength provided we don't fall into the same trap as the Jones next door, meaning, sister faiths, always fault finding and discriminating one another. Sikh is universal, founded upon principles of humanity and not on creed, colour, religion, gender, etc.
Respectfully, I engage with the following, thus:
Its been a pleasure - take care ! Its time for my lunch.
God bless you !
Let us enjoy our conversations, make it pleasurable, creative and a productive activity that engages our minds and our hearts with people we respect.
The father of the Sikh Panth, Guru Gobind Singh demonstrated this when he wrote the Zafarnama and handed it to Bhai Daya Singh to hand deliver to Arungzeb.
"Why the letter Guru Ji when it should be the sword ?" Cried the Panth.
Guru Ji said, 'the power of the written word [shabd] is mightier than the wielding sword'.
What transpired within a very short-span thereafter, is that Arungzeb died following the read of the Zafarnama. Moral being, "truth" prevails "justice" done.
Let us be the seekers of truth and not ridicule ourselves with collateral collection. Sikh rule will continue and grow from strength to strength provided we don't fall into the same trap as the Jones next door, meaning, sister faiths, always fault finding and discriminating one another. Sikh is universal, founded upon principles of humanity and not on creed, colour, religion, gender, etc.
Respectfully, I engage with the following, thus:
..no, I said it has a beautiful "ring" and not the "finger" wearing it.
...just as the head cannot be severed from the body without spilling blood, neither can the spirit and the letter of SGGSJ be preserved and interpreted without reference to Hinduism.
..pass !
..nam simran you call mumbling and a host of others you attest as vile; definitely a master plan for something good n great waiting to happen when the mind fully develops, for why otherwise such a noble task to so simple a creature?
..granted ! No heaven without hell and no gain without pain. I was generalizing, but the fact that you've gone past the Barbican was not an edifying spectacle because its drawn out of context.
..see above, no pain no gain. Just as the knife was favoured by evolution to the point of invention despite its inherent dangers, so too were the struggles optimised by evolution for the perfect race to evolve, meaning you bro.
...Sikhism is "truth", who am I to turn anything around, I'm useless against the Will of the Almighty.
...I'm only the messenger and whatever I've said to Chaz ref shabd on page 819 SGGSJ was incidental and not actual. Guru Arjun Dev Ji capitalized on an essential element to hammer home a message and that message was, "Chaz don't worry, you're my son and I'm with you". I'm sure your parents must have at some stage in your life gave you that kind of assurance , no ? But yes, baba and the rest I'm with you. Hit'em where it hurts, meaning, stay away.
Its been a pleasure - take care ! Its time for my lunch.
God bless you !
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we could go on like this for some time, that is ok, I am ok for time, are you saying that some shabads do not have the same beautiful ring? In my mind all shabads have beautiful rings, do you not feel the same?
I see, Sikhism is a sub religion to Hinduism then? Are you suggesting that it is impossible to know about Sikhism unless you refer to Hinduism?
Vile? Oh I suppose you are an advocate and therefore play by the rules of such, I do not recall ever using the word vile, pointless, but not vile, there is a difference. I think it is vile that certain people feel it is acceptable to encourage others with issues to mumble instead of facing their problems.
Waffle, what perfect race? How about a straight answer for a change?
Please do not blame the almighty for your own will, your own agenda and your own utterings, Is taking responsibility for your own words too much to ask?
how convenient! I will try that one next time I am in court
then what was the point of saying it? do you think you could restrict yourself to just saying actual things we can debate and you can take responsibility for? rather than incidental things that mean nothing.
sorry is this incidental or actual? Maybe you could use different colours for each just so we know what is debatable and not.
ah of course, the standard god bless you at the end, well gee thanks for that smurf
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Harry Ji the point some of us are trying to get across is that interpretation may differ and that's ok. And just because Sikhi shares some things similar to other religion doesn't mean we are an offshoot from those religions. Or maybe we could say ALL religion is an offshoot from ONE creator?? After all they are all aiming for the same thing are they not? Even if their paths are different. So calling it an offshoot of Hinduism just because some things might be in common is wrong way to look at it. Since truth is truth and we are told that all religions can posses the truth, then I can't see how Sikhi could be entirely different and every accept entirely new from any other religion. Certainly the way we approach things and the path to get there might look different but really our creator is one and the same...
Also Hinduism was prevalent in that time, so it's used a lot in Gurbani to provide context... But that doesn't mean that every little bit of what Hinduism taught is wrong or condemned by Sikhi. Idolatry we know was condemned, useless ritual etc. But the idea of being here more than once is not... An an example. I also believe Hinduism teaches that everything is ultimately ONE as well.
Also nam simran is not pointless. We are supposed to remember God with every breath, but realistically how many can do that? With day to day life it's impossible to think of Creator while we go about our everyday things all the time. Nam simran allows us to at least have a little while to detach from this reality, and try to find the divine within ourselves... To remember who we really are and why we are here.
Also Hinduism was prevalent in that time, so it's used a lot in Gurbani to provide context... But that doesn't mean that every little bit of what Hinduism taught is wrong or condemned by Sikhi. Idolatry we know was condemned, useless ritual etc. But the idea of being here more than once is not... An an example. I also believe Hinduism teaches that everything is ultimately ONE as well.
Also nam simran is not pointless. We are supposed to remember God with every breath, but realistically how many can do that? With day to day life it's impossible to think of Creator while we go about our everyday things all the time. Nam simran allows us to at least have a little while to detach from this reality, and try to find the divine within ourselves... To remember who we really are and why we are here.
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I can think of no other religion in the whole world that would concede that a different religion needed to be understood first.
what else does
..just as the head cannot be severed from the body without spilling blood, neither can the spirit and the letter of SGGSJ be preserved and interpreted without reference to Hinduism.
mean?
what else does
..just as the head cannot be severed from the body without spilling blood, neither can the spirit and the letter of SGGSJ be preserved and interpreted without reference to Hinduism.
mean?
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I think he means (and correct me if I am wrong Original Ji) That at that time and culture, was predominantly Hindu and majority of those turning to Sikhism came from Hindu background, therefore our Gurus used reference to Hindu concepts in Gurbani in order to explain context.
This however does not mean that it has to be 100% one way or or the other though... as in, it doesn't mean that ALL Hindu concepts were condemned, nor does it mean we are "just an offshoot" of Hinduism either. Certainly SOME Hindu concepts were condemned, those that do not have any value in progressing us spiritually. Like useless ritual (what is the point of going through useless ritual when we can just go withint ourselves to find God)? And Idol worship (what use is worshipping a FORM, or a reproduction of what we THINK is God's form, when God is everywhere and in everything?) But this doesn't mean that every single concept in Hinduism was condemned. Truth can be found everywhere and bits of it can be found in every religion. So just because we share some concepts in common, does not mean we are an 'offshoot'. But yes, Original Ji I believe was referencing how Hinduism would have been the context people could relate to in that time, when Sikhi was beginning, so that's why so much reference to it. He was not trying to say we WERE an offshoot of Hinduism.
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so far so good, I have the same opinion myself, Vedic references exist solely as a base point, as a way of getting from A to B, without ever being A or B.
But is Originalji saying this, err no, he is saying that one cannot understand SGGS without Vedic help, regardless of your background.
I am sure if he mean't to say what you have said, well he would have said it, communicating without error and being succinct is after all, what he does for a living.
Again, agree fully, maybe he will accept that what he was actually referencing was that Hinduism exists in the SGGS as a reference point for those coming into the religion from the same, and nothing more.
Let us see.
Good morning Sir,
Credit where it is due; you are an expandable asset providing for the likes of me a platform to fully unload
Goodnight & Godbless
Credit where it is due; you are an expandable asset providing for the likes of me a platform to fully unload
I agree ! Shabd taken in its literal and native form is a "word" put together by the use of letters to effect a particular sound, i.e. word. The bindi, tipi, kana, sihari, bihari, etc [Gurmukhi alphabet] in essence are the constituent parts of a shabd. And indeed, like you've said all shabds have a beautiful ring to it, they do indeed. The science of grammar and literature hold their place respectively in order to communicate both the letter and the spirit of the communicator.
..no, not at all ! It's because evolution favoured Sikhism to be the best next thing for both humanity and society in the bigger scheme of things.
...no, not all ! No its not impossible, but a necessity. Take an apple for example, the flower that precedes the apple brings about the apple which then becomes an eatable fruit. Without the flower, the bloom, the bud, the tree and all the rest, there is no apple. It cannot claim existence independent of them. Similarly, Sikhism was brought about by the many evolutionary experimentations of which Hinduism is but one, a precursor, necessary to produce a modified version to spearhead humanity to the next level,
I'm sorry, no offence intended !...SPN is a place where I feel the spirit to be free. This is where I don't have to be formal because I'm "talking" and not "drafting" per se. I feel I don't have to cross the T's and dot the I's. I consider it to be my leisure time and also a beautiful way to remain connected with the shabd of my forefathers. Moreover, what sets us apart from the rest of creation is that we play with objects and language, we can go beyond the literal, golden and the mischief [rules of interpretation] because human play is "imagination" unlimited.
..come on H ! you know Singh is King ! Its a concept mera chota phaji....rest will become history ! Just think for a minute, one individual against the giants [Islam, Hinduism], the unstoppable Nanak. You see, evolution seeks to bring out the best, not just for survival sake but for the ultimate perfection that humankind is. What better vehicle than Sikh.
..do I have a free will or am I dancing to another's tune ?
..what brings about an agenda and utterings with which your preoccupation seem to be edified or indeed, disedified ?
..depends on the motive and the act, that is to say, voluntary or involuntary performed ! Morally speaking, no, its not too much to ask.
LOL....I've done n dusted courts, more of a policing role now on Governments and multinational corporations in the light of human rights.
..just as a pushcart is used to carry the golf clubs, but doesn't form part of the "actual" game of golf in itself [Law], it is however, considered part of the toolkit without which the "actual" form of the game of golf remains incomplete. Similarly, interpreting, analysing, exploring and decoding SGGSJ remains incomplete if incidental, circumstantial, environmental, social, cultural and genetic data is not referred to for completeness and accuracy sake, justice will not be done.
..when n where deemed appropriate, of course I will !
....that is your opinion Sir !
..from a narrative perspective, since that being the primary function with which I was engaged, I'd say it's a subjective net portion of what the entire poem set out to convey.
...lol...too good H ! I'm not as smart as you when it comes to colour coordination's ? Looking at all the colourful medals decorated alongside your name makes the wannabe like me approach you for advice ! you're popular and that's a mark of a good man. You as little as {censored} on the forum people stand up and sniff, let alone your commendable writing skills.
...not the standard god bless, but the heartfelt edification of a Sikh.
Goodnight & Godbless
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your saying I'm fat.., I'm not, I'm big boned
you may wish to remind evolution of this...
your metaphor is misguided in my view,there are concepts and thoughts that have been around for a long time, Sikhism has no more right to call them Sikh than Hindus have to call them Hindu, Sikhism shares concepts and thoughts with Hinduism for sure, but they are common thoughts and concepts not Hindu ones.
Yes, I remember feeling that here
Oh you have been formal here in your time
can we? really? without someone from the big bad world bringing in rules and regulations?
Sikhism in its current state does not look too perfect to me
Hitler was popular...
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Harry Ji, this is exactly what I have said before, when referring to things such as births and deaths (transmigration) etc just because both Sikhism and Hinduism share these concepts does not make them Vedic concepts, nor does it mean we are just following Vedic philosophy. This is what I meant by truth is truth.
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and I happen to agree, so the question is then, why the need to keep referring to the Vedas to validate and understand Sikhism? All it does is encourage the continuing dilution of Sikhism
....its not about conceding and succeeding, its about analysing the true or false of a statement in terms of the words used. We're talking about Gurbani and the rules of interpretation. Take for example "hari", a name given to God in Hindu religion; is that true or false ? And, then to revamp and modify it as Harry coz it sounds good , convention deem it inadmissible without referencing to its origins.
H, if you will; dig deep and look at your family history. The middle names you will come up with will be the likes of, dev, das, chand , lal, and so forth. They are all male names in Hindu society. Guru Gobind, purely for social reform changed it to Singh. So in relation to what is true and what is false one would consider the following statement: A Singh is a male Sikh.
Yes, if an argument could be had it would be to support an ontological claim that the true nature of "hari" is manifested in KAURSINGH [SIKH], dropping-off as it were, Hinduism as a functional entity in the course of events.
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H, when I was young and handsome I meditated on the four cardinal virtues:
- I'm a human not an animal
- I'm a man not a woman
- I'm a Punjabi not an English
- I'm a Farmer Sikh not another
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interesting reply, my own would be
gee that was fun smurf, but now we have had a bit of fun, how about a straight answer, if at all that is possible, pretty please and all that.
do you consider yourself a Hindu-Sikh, let me make it easier for you, its either a yes, or a no.
- I do not wish to be human, humans are conceited liars, obsessed with ego and image. Animals, on the other hand, just be, I would say I am more animal than human,
- I am neither man nor woman, I have traits that apply to both sexes, I am a person.
- I was born here, I am English.
- I hustle.
gee that was fun smurf, but now we have had a bit of fun, how about a straight answer, if at all that is possible, pretty please and all that.
do you consider yourself a Hindu-Sikh, let me make it easier for you, its either a yes, or a no.
H..this is getting to close for comfort, next you'll be asking me to drop my long-johns for inspection, hey ! As for the point in question; I've never entertained it as such, been too busy looking good as King Singh. I suppose there is no denial in that the father of my faith was conceived by a Hindu mother and the seed deposited for fertilization was that of a Hindu father, which makes me organically Hindu and religiously Sikh. So yes, not just me but the whole of Sikh is Hindu-Sikh. Goodness gracious, you're a genius, I never thought of it like that. !
Whilst we're at it, can you scan to see if I'm a bit of a Moslem, Buddhist, Christian and the rest, for if that'd be true than "bingo" unity in diversity confirmed. Isn't that what Sikhism is ?
Waiting earnestly for a response ! Cor' I'm all excited, can't wait ! Thank you Baba Harry Ji.
PS can we name you as the "midwife" for helping plonkers like me give birth to universal truths.
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pointless, I do not own a microscope
do you find looking good easier than being good?
Actually I am not a genius, as I do not buy the whole of Sikh is Hindu-Sikh, what difference does parentage make in any case? Just because the parents of the first Guru were Hindus hardly makes us all organic Hindus, how did you get to that conclusion?
Although I can see that when you do not wish to answer a question, you throw up flak, it is all getting a bit boring now, I asked you a simple question, you seem unable to answer it, or unwilling, would you consider yourself a Hindu-Sikh? a Sanatan Sikh?
More flak, no substance, this is getting to be a habit Originalji.
They are your own truths, enjoy them, live them, they are not universal until they have been foisted on the rest of us, there you go, there is your little mission to keep you busy. As such I have no interest in another persons truths, however, you could just answer the question, if that is at all possible, it is a good job we are able to have this discourse on the web, I fear talking to you in real life, even the offer of a cup of tea, could well result in days of dialogue.
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