Tankhah Against Prof Darshan Issued

[Randip Singh]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

Absolutely PATHETIC! behaviour by the Akal Takht!

Even more Pathetic is the reporting and commentary by Pathetic.org....(they represent nothing panthic).


PS I noticed a comment from that even bigger narrow minded so and so Deep Singh.

 

[satnamr46]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

Randip ji
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh

The present turmoil and targic state of affairs gripping the Sikh World is because of spiritual and political bankruptcy of sikh leadership.They are disgustingly incompetent,have scant knowledge of the scripture and sikh philosophy.The Pujaarees are solely concerned with keeping their jobs .They have no sense of shame and embarrassment in doing the kind of things they are doing.

They do not want to face Prof. Darshan Singh in the presence of the Guru and the Sadh Sangat and seek clarification from him.They have stooped so low as to blame their own failings on him.

However dedicated as Prof. Darshan Singh is, he is going to appear again at Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on December 7. He,as did earlier would not see these so-called Jathedars of the sikh kaum in any closed quarters, but only in the presence of our Eternal Guru and the Sadh Sangat.(ref. Spokesman,December 6, Page3). He is not going to see these priests in a secretive chamber where deals are made.

Satnam Singh

 

[vikram9274]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

Randip ji
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh

The present turmoil and targic state of affairs gripping the Sikh World is because of spiritual and political bankruptcy of sikh leadership.They are disgustingly incompetent,have scant knowledge of the scripture and sikh philosophy.The Pujaarees are solely concerned with keeping their jobs .They have no sense of shame and embarrassment in doing the kind of things they are doing.

They do not want to face Prof. Darshan Singh in the presence of the Guru and the Sadh Sangat and seek clarification from him.They have stooped so low as to blame their own failings on him.

However dedicated as Prof. Darshan Singh is, he is going to appear again at Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on December 7. He,as did earlier would not see these so-called Jathedars of the sikh kaum in any closed quarters, but only in the presence of our Eternal Guru and the Sadh Sangat.(ref. Spokesman,December 6, Page3). He is not going to see these priests in a secretive chamber where deals are made.

Satnam Singh

but at the same time, don't you think that with all the fighting that has broken out over this issue inside gurdwaras around the globe, it is not wise to hold a discussion in front of open sangat? I mean, I doubt that either side would even get to speak to one another because members of the sangat would be yelling and jumping into the discussion. Even in videos of 10 people sitting and discussing dasam granth, it is mostly just arguing and bickering and nothing of substance results. I don't agree with decisions behind made closed doors, but at the same time, holding this discussion in the open in front of 100's of people would not result in anything productive. Fights might break out, discussion will not occur, etc. The jathedars need to find a good solution as to where, when, and how to hold this meeting.


oh and 400 people for security?? HAHAHA he's some old guy going to discuss an issue, 400 people for security sounds ridiculous and just adds to the controversy. That is like a mini-army. Just plain stupid.

 

[satnamr46]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

Vikram, What kind of solution are you visualizing? You do not seem to trust the so called jathedars and have expressed your strong opinions about them in many of your posts.You dont want the issue to be dealt with behind closed doors. You want the jathedars to find a solution.
I do not have an option. May be you do. And if you have one let them know.

Life is real. And if we cannot find solutions in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib
and that too at the revered Akaal Takhat,that tells you of the terrrible slide in sikh values, and the need to vigorously and tenaciously follow the message of Gurbani and root out those forces hell bent on undermining the revealed Gurbani.

Crises have gripped the sikhs before and will most likely grip again.Treading the path shown by the Guru is not always easy. There are abominable forces out there who would use every weapon in their arsnel to block this path.

We have to make choices. Do we believe solely and unequivically in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, as directed by the Tenth Master? Is it a Pooran Guru? Can and does it answer all our questions? If the answer is YES , we do not have to look elsewhere.Guru Rakha
Satnam Singh

 

[vikram9274]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

See I have no problem with having decisions made at Akal Takhat, but it is only right if those making the decision were unbiased and uncorrupted. To send a man into a closed room with 5 people who have views opposite from his and have them judge him is not right. Especially when these leaders have proved their incompetency and greed time and time again. At the same time, to hold this outside in front of open sangat will not allow for any discussion to occur. Sangat will only interfere in the discussions and may even start a ruckus. Their are elements in our panth who will use this to start a fight. We need to find a middle ground. Perhaps allow two or three people to go inside with Ragi? I do not know, I am not the Jathedar and it is not my responsibility. They have accepted this position and get paid for it and use their position to get money from abroad, so they should at least try to do their job semi-efficiently.

And ofcourse I do not trust these Jathedars, they are greedy and fight amongst themselves on a regular basis. Iqbal Singh is a polygamist. They are all after money. They spend most of their time abroad or attending functions. Political motivations control them. I have no reason to trust them. I will only respect those who have earned my respect. Respecting someone just because "you should", isn't reason enough for me.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

See I have no problem with having decisions made at Akal Takhat, but it is only right if those making the decision were unbiased and uncorrupted. To send a man into a closed room with 5 people who have views opposite from his and have them judge him is not right. Especially when these leaders have proved their incompetency and greed time and time again. At the same time, to hold this outside in front of open sangat will not allow for any discussion to occur. Sangat will only interfere in the discussions and may even start a ruckus. Their are elements in our panth who will use this to start a fight. We need to find a middle ground. Perhaps allow two or three people to go inside with Ragi? I do not know, I am not the Jathedar and it is not my responsibility. They have accepted this position and get paid for it and use their position to get money from abroad, so they should at least try to do their job semi-efficiently.

And ofcourse I do not trust these Jathedars, they are greedy and fight amongst themselves on a regular basis. Iqbal Singh is a polygamist. They are all after money. They spend most of their time abroad or attending functions. Political motivations control them. I have no reason to trust them. I will only respect those who have earned my respect. Respecting someone just because "you should", isn't reason enough for me.

Vikram,

Guru Fateh.

I have been reading your posts and am a bit puzzled by them. You seem to offer no solution but at the same time you do not want this to be an open debate and now you do not want it behind closed doors either. Now you have gone off track from your original stance for the reasons only known to you.

The first and foremost thing all involved Jathedaars should do is to understand Gurbani in SGGS, our only GURU. After they have done that and are ready to follow the instructions from our only GURU, then the solutions can be found. The first one would be that they would declare their incapability to judge anyone if they are honest enough to follow the the teachings of SGGS, our only GURU.

Then, this can end the charade created by Manmat rather than Gurmat.

This whole "ZEE TV" drama is only fit for the soap operas. Sikhi does not need that.

Tejwant Singh

 

[vikram9274]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

Vikram,

Guru Fateh.

I have been reading your posts and am a bit puzzled by them. You seem to offer no solution but at the same time you do not want this to be an open debate and now you do not want it behind closed doors either. Now you have gone off track from your original stance for the reasons only known to you.

The first and foremost thing all involved Jathedaars should do is to understand Gurbani in SGGS, our only GURU. After they have done that and are ready to follow the instructions from our only GURU, then the solutions can be found. The first one would be that they would declare their incapability to judge anyone if they are honest enough to follow the the teachings of SGGS, our only GURU.

Then, this can end the charade created by Manmat rather than Gurmat.

This whole "ZEE TV" drama is only fit for the soap operas. Sikhi does not need that.

Tejwant Singh

Sir I have offered a solution. I believe that ragi should be allowed to bring a few supporters of his with him. Where there are 5 jathedars, he should be able to bring 3 or 4 people with him. If this is held in front of sangat, can you truly say that you believe that sangat will not interfere in the discussion or start a ruckus? People have fought inside gurdwaras over this issue and done beadbi of SGGS. Holding this in front off 100's of people will not allow for any proper discussion and will only create more controversy and create a mockery of our panth. If they want to hold this in front of sangat, they need to insure that there will be no interference from sangat and that no fights will break out.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

By the way.."Tankhah" is the "punishment"...and the "criminal" is called "Tankhaiyah"...
so the title of this thread should use the word "Tankhah"..:happykaur:.....or
Ragi declared Tankhaiyah....

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued

By the way.."Tankhah" is the "punishment"...and the "criminal" is called "Tankhaiyah"...
so the title of this thread should use the word "Tankhah"..:happykaur:.....or
Ragi declared Tankhaiyah....

I know you are right - but the title was copied from the newspaper article which got it wrong.

Correct the title I can do -- Correct the news paper, would it help? :happykaur: And it was panthic.org that goofed!

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

Lets have an article that states :

Panthic.org goof yet again on reporting Sikh issue.

One final point to note, I agree totally in having open discourse without intimidation or threats. It should be public and not behind closed doors. Guruji ordained Guru Paanth and Guru Granth as guidance. We listen to the Guru Granth openly, so why not the Guru Paanth?

 

[vikram9274]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

Lets have an article that states :

Panthic.org goof yet again on reporting Sikh issue.

One final point to note, I agree totally in having open discourse without intimidation or threats. It should be public and not behind closed doors. Guruji ordained Guru Paanth and Guru Granth as guidance. We listen to the Guru Granth openly, so why not the Guru Paanth?

Right but then you must insure that fights do not break out. If you are going to have an open discussion about this issue at akal takhat you must insure that sanctity of SGGS and the gurdwaras is observed. In todays day and age, it has become obvious that some individuals do not care about that sanctity and will start fights in presence of SGGS and spit on dastars and do beadbi. If an open discussion is to be held at the Akal Takhat, then it must be insured that this will not occur, because if it does, it will be a stain on the panth and will once again turn the Sikhs into laughingstocks.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

A general question, raised by your observation vikram9274 ji. But my question is really not directed at you personally.

Why would a closed meeting be less prone or inclined to violence and disrespect than an open meeting?

I keep reading that closed meetings are better than open meetings. If there is an open meeting there might be violence and disrespect. That part I do understand. However, why would there be less of a chance of violence at a closed meeting?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

A bit of an answer to my own question. Closed meetings can be prone to violence. The perfect victim can be the truth. With a secret meeting no one even knows if a meeting took place.

Here is part of an article by IJ Singh - I just received it minutes ago for uploading - which I will do. But the problem with closed meeetings...

from
Let There Be Light

<small>by I.J. SINGH</small>


There appear to be many procedural failures that one can question in the case of Professor Darshan Singh.



The latest, dating from just a few days ago, highlights a lesson that should not be ignored and would be child's play to fix.



On Saturday, December 5, 2009, The Akal Takht found Darshan Singh guilty of the charges against him. But the trial never really happened!



According to The Akal Takht, Darshan Singh had been summoned but he did not appear on the stipulated date of the trial. In a sense then, he was sentenced in absentia on the charges. I know that sometimes in legal proceedings this is the only option when the accused flees the jurisdiction of the court.



Prof. Darshan Singh claims that he was present at the stipulated venue, The Akal Takht, at the scheduled date and time, and the press as well as the sangat was witness to that. He avers that he waited an hour or so and then left.



It seems the Jathedars wanted him to appear for a trial in camera - that is, behind closed doors, with no press or members of the public present; effectively, a secret trial! - while he wanted an open trial so that the world wide Sikh community could watch the legal proceedings against him.



["In camera" is a legal term used for closed trials in situations where, for example, national security is at risk. The term, a Latin phrase, has nothing to do with cameras.]



A press release from the Jathedars confirms that their hearings are now routinely held in camera as of the past nearly ten years. Prior to that date all hearings were public - in an open setting. That is, open to the public, open to the press.



This makes we wonder.



Why on earth would one move towards secret hearings and trials? Why was the open policy changed to secret trials ten years ago?

sikhchic.com | The Art and Culture of the Diaspora | Let There Be Light

 

[vikram9274]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

A general question, raised by your observation vikram9274 ji. But my question is really not directed at you personally.

Why would a closed meeting be less prone or inclined to violence and disrespect than an open meeting?

I keep reading that closed meetings are better than open meetings. If there is an open meeting there might be violence and disrespect. That part I do understand. However, why would there be less of a chance of violence at a closed meeting?

I am against closed meetings. I think that at the very least, they should allow 2 or 3 people to go inside with Ragi so it is not 5 against one. And if there is an open meeting, they have to insure that violence does not break out. It is a common concept, Forward Panic. In a crowd, one person does something, and in that rush of adrenaline and emotion, other will act. At the same time, in open public, we must also insure that random people do not interfere during the talks. Ragi should be able to state his side without interruptions and same with the jathedars. Where we have seen countless arguments and fights break out over this issue in gurdwaras over the past few years, we have to take steps to insure that this does not occur at the Akal Takhat if the meeting is held in the open.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

vikram9274 ji

I wish I were permitted to share some of the wonderful essays that I am receiving as part of a yahoo group now discussing this issue. There is no question that we have seen more than our share of public outbursts in public venues, such as gurdwaras. But I have to repeat that in closed meetings, violence can be done to the truth. And is surely has been done in the many historical moments when those holding formal power sought ways to silence the opposition. Closed meetings smell like the Spanish Inquisition, the Star Chamber proceedings, and Stalin's purges. This is not the Sikh way. It is not consistent with Sikh history. And secret meetings are contrary to the our rehat.Truth did not matter. Might made right in those situations. The jathedars do not even have the official power to sit in judgment of any one. They are the sevadhars of the panth, not judge, jury and executioner.

Do we invite more violence if a meeting is open? That is not the question imho we should ask. The question we should ask is: What is the greater risk to Sikhi? Open meetings where some may act out in anger? or Closed meetings where history can be written by the unworthy?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

vikram9274 ji

I wish I were permitted to share some of the wonderful essays that I am receiving as part of a yahoo group now discussing this issue. There is no question that we have seen more than our share of public outbursts in public venues, such as gurdwaras. But I have to repeat that in closed meetings, violence can be done to the truth. And is surely has been done in the many historical moments when those holding formal power sought ways to silence the opposition. Closed meetings smell like the Spanish Inquisition, the Star Chamber proceedings, and Stalin's purges. This is not the Sikh way. It is not consistent with Sikh history. And secret meetings are contrary to the our rehat.Truth did not matter. Might made right in those situations. The jathedars do not even have the official power to sit in judgment of any one. They are the sevadhars of the panth, not judge, jury and executioner.

Do we invite more violence if a meeting is open? That is not the question imho we should ask. The question we should ask is: What is the greater risk to Sikhi? Open meetings where some may act out in anger? or Closed meetings where history can be written by the unworthy?

Narayanjot ji,

Well said.

No one could have put it better. SGGS, our only Guru and Sikh history, remind us quite often that possible that open-mindedness can not be cultivated behind any veil of secrecy. If this occurred then we should also close the four doors of Harmander Sahib and ignore what they represent as far as Gurmat ideals are concerned.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

Our GURU is Open and available everywhere 24/7

Our Gurmantar is given in OPEN (unlike some others who whisper it in the ear and have to vow to keep it secret even from their wives/sons/daughters etc ).

Our Gurus were OPEN..Our Misls were Open..Our Gurdwaras are OPEN..Our Langgars are OPEN...even the Maharaja Ranjit Singh Darbar was OPEN..(Maharaja used to go out at night dressed in normal ordinary clothes to see for himself his peoples problems etc....

NOTHING ABOUT SIKHI...GURMATT..is Closed/secret/unavailable to all and sundry.

This "closed room" culture of the 5 Paid jathedars began just 10 years ago..( by their own admission to darshan Singh who in his time as Jathedar used the OPEN CONCEPT) in which DEALS were made..saudabazee was carried out, pre-written hukmnamahs were taken out of pockets and read out..convicted rapists were let off with slaps on wrist, ( A Baba convicted in Open Court and sentenced to Jail by an Indian Court was however exonerated by these 5 jThedars) Another Baba caught by the local snagat with solid proofs "counselling single women in motel room" was also exonerated.

On 5th December TRUTH/SIKHI/GURMATT was murdered in such a closed room. There is definitely something wrong in the State of Denmark...

ATTACHED: a Book in Punjabi (sorry to non-punjabi knowing readers_Dasam Granth dee asleeat..the TRUTH about dsm Granth- a Page by page and word by word analysis of so called dem garnth and Gurbani of SGGS to prove that the dem grnath is NOT Guru Kirt...but a translation of Purans and other Brahmin literature wrotten by others and NOT Guru Sahib.

 

[Admin]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

Admin Note: Off-Topic Discussion Removed.

 

[vikram9274]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

I am not so much worried about the chance of violence breaking out as I am of a discussion not taking place. We must find a way to make sure that the sangat does not constantly interrupt the discussion. Constant interruptions and yelling by sangat could make it hard for a discussion of substance to be held. And we must insure that any beadbi of Gurdwara's or SGGS does not occur. There have been those who have shown that they do not care about respecting the SGGS or Gurdwaras. If the meeting is to be held openly, then the SGPC/Jathedars need to insure that enough security/personnel are in place to prevent this. The last thing we need is for something violent or disrespect of SGGS or Gurdwara's to occur, which will result in the discussion not taking place, a media debacle, and will consequently just delay these proceedings.

 

[ssira]

Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued

I have tried three times to a comment but it is deleted intentionally by the controller of this thread. Because this is only accepted if you are write in favour of Prof Darshan Singh. You all are Panth Verodhy commentators. I will not even read this any further as I known this will be deleted too.<?"urn:fficeffice" />
Let me still explain this that when some one is going in front of Panj Piyarey, it is always dealt privately in the closed door, Not in front of media. When Punj Pyarey are present Guru is present. If you are going there with band bajey and media that explain everything what personality are you. I know you will be comment look at the punj piyare who they are. Still I will say it doesn’t meter who they are as long as they are in the Punj Piyrey uniform.