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Controversial Tearing Away The Veil: The Burka: Religious Freedom Vs. Social Responsibility?

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
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London, UK
Lee ji

An interesting reply. There is a lot to ponder in it. Just don't start bawling whatever you do. We humans have a knack for digging a deep hole and falling into it. Have so done for centuries, yet we continue. Not without pain and suffering.

No -- I would not characterize my view of natural justice as objective, but rather as "rational" in this sense: lawful actions need to follow logically from principles of justice rather than from the perceived need of the moment. Rational as opposed to intuitive. (I am not using "rational" in the sense of sane versus insane.)

I too see the child molester as a human first and a criminal next. But if collective morality were not tempered by principles of justice it would be easier to condemn first and ask for evidence later when it is too late. Principles of justice in the Anglo system of justice place value in ideas like "innocent" til proved guilty, the right to bail, the right to a trial by jury, the right to cross-examine witnesses and evidence, to name a few. Likewise when considering political and social restraints like burqa, our system asks there be compelling evidence of a clear and present danger to society. To me that takes the subjectivity out of the equation. You are right on that score.

I believe under the Napoleonic code which governs most of Europe, one presumed guilty and must prove one's innocence. That is a big difference. How does one prove innocence? How does one prove that one is not a threat to society?


Narayanjot ji,

Yes once agian we are in agreement. This:

'lawful actions need to follow logically from principles of justice rather than from the perceived need of the moment'

Is spot on in my opinion.

Yet it is clear that this is not the way things are(at least in this instance), and that as is often the case fear takes the place of logical thought. Now of course whether such fear is from the people and so transmitted to the rulers to do something about, or it comes from the rulers and is porpousely transmitted down to the people in order to get the people on the rulers side, well that is a differant question.

Also again which justice? For some it is justified to kill the killer, for others to kill the killer is engaging in the same activity that we wish justice for. Hahah and again still for some the word justice means simply vengance.


Clear and present danager and prove ones inocence again to my mind serve to illustrate the whole subjectivity of morality, and really when it boils right down to it questions of justice are questions of morality.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Narayanjot ji,


Yet it is clear that this is not the way things are(at least in this instance), and that as is often the case fear takes the place of logical thought. Now of course whether such fear is from the people and so transmitted to the rulers to do something about, or it comes from the rulers and is porpousely transmitted down to the people in order to get the people on the rulers side, well that is a differant question.

Also again which justice? For some it is justified to kill the killer, for others to kill the killer is engaging in the same activity that we wish justice for. Hahah and again still for some the word justice means simply vengance.


Clear and present danager and prove ones inocence again to my mind serve to illustrate the whole subjectivity of morality, and really when it boils right down to it questions of justice are questions of morality.

Lee ji

Well here is where we may not be in agreement.

One purpose served by having a system of jurisprudence is to decide whether justice flows from basic principles or whether it flows from a need for vegeance. Societies can be anywhere on this spectrum, a typically so are their rules of jursiprudence.

For me the point is knowing how principles of justice are defined in the first place in a given society. Then to understand how they should be applied. Then to evaluate whether they are being applied accordingly.

Back to Belgium and France and the question of protecting individual rights. Are we to understand, given the arguments posed by the thread starter, that in Belgium and France (or other European locations) individual rights are not balanced against the need of government to regulate individual behavior? or that society is more important than the individual?

If I have it wrong, then how am I wrong?

If I am correct, then it is not hard to understand why women in burqa are/would be innocent of any crime on Monday and lawbreakers on Tuesday. Of course that conclusion raises all sorts of other questions.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Baltimore Md USA
NK ji I hope you are well.

Your argument that "then it is not hard to understand why women in burqa are/would be innocent of any crime on Monday and lawbreakers on Tuesday. Of course that conclusion raises all sorts of other questions." is perhaps a little faulty. Laws change all the time and there is much that was legal in the past and not legal today.

Personally I don't want people in America walking around in their own tent. It may sound co{censored} but if someone doesn't want to be seen they should stay in their house. This scares the hell out of me and would terify children.
 

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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
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NK ji I hope you are well.

Your argument that "then it is not hard to understand why women in burqa are/would be innocent of any crime on Monday and lawbreakers on Tuesday. Of course that conclusion raises all sorts of other questions." is perhaps a little faulty. Laws change all the time and there is much that was legal in the past and not legal today.

Personally I don't want people in America walking around in their own tent. It may sound co{censored} but if someone doesn't want to be seen they should stay in their house. This scares the hell out of me and would terify children.


Satyaban ji

Laws do change all the time, and what you say is quite right. My hope would be that when laws do change, that they change in ways that are consistent with ideas of justice, and not according to political whims.

I thought I made that clear. And of course I know that laws often reflect political whims. That is why they end up in federal courts where their constitutionality is tested. Example: Jim Crow laws that prevented African Americans from voting, or put huge obstacles in their way, because of the economic interests of slave-holders and former slave-holders. Those were laws in days long ago. And they were tested. And they were struck down. In accordance with the Bill of Rights.

But also...I do live in a community where there are many Muslim families. Some wear burqa. This is not an unusual sight even a few streets away from my home. It has never alarmed me. I have never felt they were hiding bombs. Do I think it is an oppression? Yes... I do. Should we ban the burqa for the good of these women, as they propose in France? So far the French have not convinced me that they are sincerely interested in the well-being of Muslim women. They seem more concerned in justifying their dislike of anything that is not "French." Why doesn't someone just say that they made a mistake in their immigration policies? That is what is really behind all this posturing in my not humble opinion.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Apr 24, 2006
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Why doesn't someone just say that they made a mistake in their immigration policies?
Why do you say that?

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Satyaban ji, I agree with you that is pretty scary. Its like imagining yourself trapped in a coffin, buried underground! of course... you'll get used to it...
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
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19,219
Why do you say that?

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Satyaban ji, I agree with you that is pretty scary. Its like imagining yourself trapped in a coffin, buried underground! of course... you'll get used to it...


I can only say this based on informed inferences. Reading news articles over a period of 20 years. Not only France, but many other European countries, permitted higher levels of immigration from Asian countries because of a declining birth rate (actually a 0 birth rate in some countries during certain time periods), and the need for an unskilled and semi-skilled labor force. Among those who immigrated were Muslims from various Middle Easterncountries. With large extended families and higher birth rates. Red flags raised. Alarms.

In fact if you are interested, you could consider Italy a case study that demonstrates some of these points very well. Liberal immigration policies accompanied industrial growth after WW II for a variety of reasons. Today all that has changed.

It became soon obvious that Muslim birth rates would overtake that of the native born citizens. It also became obvious that cultures were increasingly in conflict. Or even that an indigenous culture would be swamped by immigrant values and beliefs. That social services and tax revenue would be diverted from citizens to serve immigrants and refugees. Many of the concerns are based on realities and are not imaginary. Also there was and is concern over the loss of jobs to immigrant groups, in both the unskilled and highly skilled job sectors. Over the years one reads about these conflicts in many places: Australia, France, Italy, Netherlands, England, Belgium. Calls to change immigration policies did not start yesterday BTW. The increased intensity became obvious as far back as the late 1980's. Politicians make speeches about the importance of immigrants blending in. Citizens have the perception that government favors immigrants, and form lobbies for immigration reform.

In the US the very same antagonisms are easier to read in relation to some Latino and Hispanic groups. Cubans never triggering the same kind of animosity as Mexicans. It has also been increasingly present in relation to Muslims, especially since 9/11. But many immigrant and refugee groups feel vulnerable in the US to radical rethinking of immigration policies.

I suppose my bottom line is this -- and a very round-about way I have taken. The citizens of country x, y or z believe, rightly or wrongly, that their way of life is being undermined by immigration policies.They believe that these policies invite economic competition and cultural conflicts. If we read all the threads on this subject at SPN we can come up with quite a long list. Give up this transparent habit of giving speeches about the higher moral purpose that is served by outlawing burqas. Admit that burqas symbolize something bigger and more worrisome. Instead of posturing about protecting Muslim women from the oppression of their burqas, and protecting society from the possibility that there are bombs under the burqas, admit what this is really about. We might not like the ugly face of xenophobia that we finally permit ourselves to see. But at least the conversation will about something that is real. Or perhaps it will morph beyond xenophobia to a discussion about how to find a just solution for these problems, and how to manage cultural conflict in respectful ways.
 
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Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
56
London, UK
Narayanjot ji,

In fact we do not disagree with each other at all on this point. However we are talking I think at cross porposes. In essance you are talking 'shoulds'. Laws should provide justice and not be written for political gains, or out of fear of the people or the goverment.

I'm talking about what I view the likely reasons for this particular law may be. As I say our history shows us that in times of trouble, we look for scapegoats, and most offten these scapegoats are the foriegners in our midsts. Not nice but there is plenty of historical precedent to show this is indeed what happens.

This particular law in France I am uncertian if the fear (of 'radical' Islam) is generated by the people an dthe goverment are responding to these fears, or it comes from the goverment and in creating such law the goverment seeks to install fear into the people.

We are in the middle of recescion, high unemployment, and global financal crises, I think it qualifiys for troubled times.

It is a shame but even here in the UK, which IS a multicultuural, tolerant society, I can see the starting of this 'scapegoat' mentality. Too many people are now talking about 'the immigrants' for my comfort, and I belive that the Tory majority this time around is partly due to their publicised immigration stance.

Personaly I think it is madness, but I'm one bloke amongst 72 million of us.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
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Narayanjot Kaur ji,
So enforcing this law is directly trying to discourage Muslim immigrants?
and that's the only purpose of it?

What do you make of that Dutch politician, Geert Wilders?
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
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Narayanjot Kaur ji,
So enforcing this law is directly trying to discourage Muslim immigrants?
and that's the only purpose of it?

What do you make of that Dutch politician, Geert Wilders?

Bhagatji

Good question! I had not thought of it that way. Right now I have a somewhat different take. The law banning burqa would not discourage Muslim immigrants per se... maybe it would have that indirect effect some time down the line. I think the law is an attempt to do what in the US we call "closing the barn door after the cows have escaped."

The economic and cultural conflicts are already front and center stage and have been for some time. Now, and this is only my opinion, the politics have reached the point where laws such as this are proposed and passed to make it look as if something very forceful is being done to rein in the cultural differences that make the electorate anxious and fear-ridden.

Just a little bit of insight from my 30 years of study, research and experience with comparative bi-lingual education policy in the states, Canada, Belgium, Netherlands and Israel. When attempts to resolve cultural differences (to include religion and language) are legislated societies tend to become more divided, more polarized, and less likely to communicate across cultural divides.

The net effect is more likely to be that Muslim women are more sequestered than ever, less likely to seek schooling, less likely to pursue professional careers, less likely to leave the confines of their own culture and families. Such laws accentuate the differences between people, call attention the negatives. So I expect to see more not less assimilation of religious minorities, more not less conflict between ethnic and religious groups, because these kinds of laws.

I need more information about Geert Wilders. I will look into it.
 
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