• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Leisure Temporary Pasture

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
55
it answers the two questions quite satisfactorily,

why am i here-to play my part to the best of my ability, and to harmonise with the rest of creation
what is the meaning of life-to be as much as I can be, with knowledge, information, and personal/non personal experience, and then to share that enlightenment with as many parts of creation as is possible in my lifetime, with the creator being reponsible for sharing it after death, such enlightenment and ways to absorb it, and act with the rest of creation are outlined in the SGGS

Thank you Ambersariaji, and now Im off to the bike sheds
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,005
1,095
In the Self
why am i here-to play my part to the best of my ability, and to harmonise with the rest of creation
what is the meaning of life-to be as much as I can be, with knowledge, information, and personal/non personal experience, and then to share that enlightenment with as many parts of creation as is possible in my lifetime, with the creator being reponsible for sharing it after

Veer ji What I'm wondering is that you can be executed once, whether you take a few million lives beforehand or [to the best of your ability ]decide to help millions have a better life.So death once does not seem rectify the damage done nor reward those who were great good doers,it does not to me be the end,it's closer to a start.
 
Last edited:

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
55
Veer ji What I'm wondering is that you can be executed once, whether you take a few million lives beforehand or [to the best of your ability ]decide to help millions have a better life.So death once does not seem rectify the damage done nor reward those who were great good doers,it does not to me be the end,it's closer to a start.

I do not think there is any punishment/reward system, judgement is in the form of whether creation is better off or worse off for your existance as that 'soul' at that time

i think............
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,005
1,095
In the Self
Harry Haller said:
I do not think there is any punishment/reward system, judgement is in the form of whether creation is better off or worse off for your existance as that 'soul' at that time

Veer ji ,Then how do we interpret this Shabad like these of which there are many more?

Page 38, Line 18
ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਬਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

धरम राइ नो हुकमु है बहि सचा धरमु बीचारि ॥

Ḏẖaram rā▫e no hukam hai bahi sacẖā ḏẖaram bīcẖār.

The Righteous Judge of Dharma, by the Hukam of God's Command, sits and administers True Justice.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
I think if we take a look at a larger segment of the shabad we see that a different matter is being reviewed. It casts the nature of the righteous judge of dharma in a different light. Not in the sense of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. Not the one with the job of sorting out the evil from the good. This is a judge of a different sort.


Let's think about the meaning of dharma. Why is dharma depicted as a wheel? Its movement changes and its transformation is continuous, and that continuity is something that is destined no matter how one may willfully try to abort it. Dharma acts within its own system of truths.

Understand also that an important meaning of dharma is "rightness," the rightness of motion and change within the the universe, as in how could it be wrong?.... and therefore, the rightness of deeds, or the balance of our deeds within the balance of the universe is a way to look at this. Rather than the idea of good deeds versus bad deeds, in a dualistic sense.

Let me post the full shabad.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
A larger segment of the shabad:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
Sri Rag, Third Guru.

ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਸਚਾ ਸਚੁ ਤੂ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਚੀਰੈ ॥
हरि जी सचा सचु तू सभु किछु तेरै चीरै ॥
Har jī sacẖā sacẖ ṯū sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯerai cẖīrai.
My adorable God, Thou art the Truest of the true. Every one is in Thy power.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਤਰਸਦੇ ਫਿਰੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੀਰੈ ॥
लख चउरासीह तरसदे फिरे बिनु गुर भेटे पीरै ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh ṯarasḏe fire bin gur bẖete pīrai.
Without meeting Guru, the spiritual guide, the mortals tantalizingly wander about in eighty four lakhs of existences.

ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਬਖਸੇ ਬਖਸਿ ਲਏ ਸੂਖ ਸਦਾ ਸਰੀਰੈ ॥
हरि जीउ बखसे बखसि लए सूख सदा सरीरै ॥
Har jī▫o bakẖse bakẖas la▫e sūkẖ saḏā sarīrai.
If Reverend God forgives and grants pardon, the human body then ever remains in peace.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀ ਸਚੁ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰੈ ॥੧॥
गुर परसादी सेव करी सचु गहिर ग्मभीरै ॥१॥
Gur parsādī sev karī sacẖ gahir gambẖīrai. ||1||
By Guru's grace, I perform the service of the True profound and unfathomable Lord.

ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
मन मेरे नामि रते सुखु होइ ॥
Man mere nām raṯe sukẖ ho▫e.
O my Soul! by being imbued with the Name thou shalt procure peace.

ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमती नामु सलाहीऐ दूजा अवरु न कोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmaṯī nām salāhī▫ai ḏūjā avar na ko▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Under Guru's guidance praise the Lord's Name, (for) there is no other second than He. Pause.

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਬਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
धरम राइ नो हुकमु है बहि सचा धरमु बीचारि ॥
Ḏẖaram rā▫e no hukam hai bahi sacẖā ḏẖaram bīcẖār.
The Righteous Judge is under command to sit and administer even-handed justice.

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਆਤਮਾ ਓਹੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਕਾਰ ॥
दूजै भाइ दुसटु आतमा ओहु तेरी सरकार ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏusat āṯmā oh ṯerī sarkār.
The evil souls with love for duality; they are thine subjects.

ਅਧਿਆਤਮੀ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਤਾਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਜਪਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥
अधिआतमी हरि गुण तासु मनि जपहि एकु मुरारि ॥
Aḏẖi▫āṯmī har guṇ ṯās man jāpėh ek murār.
God, the Treasure of excellences abides within the heart of the spiritual wayfarers and they meditate on One Lord the enemy of ego.9

First of all, when Guruji says, Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏusat āṯmā oh ṯerī sarkār.
The evil souls with love for duality; they are thine subjects.

Who is "thine?" "Thine" is refering to "Oh my soul!" This shabad is about bringing evil souls into alignment, into balance, away from their love of imbalance that comes from egoism and love of duality. The judge of dharma is under the hukam of Waheguru (who is dharma) to judge, to make an assessment. The assessment questions: Where are the spiritual wayfarers in a state of ego, duality? Where are the wayfarers who have found the treasure of excellence? In the rehao line we learn how to find the treasure of excellence. All the lines that follow the rehao describe the states of duality versus bliss. The shabad deserves more attention than I have given it. But it is important not to think that the judge of dharma is conducting some sort of celestial judgement in the Christian sense which is similar to the judgement made of souls who wish to enter heaven.

Now here is the second part of the shabad, on Ang 39.

The cost to those who do not find the treasure of excellence is to wander around like a lunatic. But it is not the judge of dharma who casts them into the darkness, into lunacy. They/we do this to ourselves easily enough, and do not require any assistance, it would appear. It happens when we are simply out of balance with the divine.

ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਕਰੈ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਵਾਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
तिन की सेवा धरम राइ करै धंनु सवारणहारु ॥२॥
Ŧin kī sevā ḏẖaram rā▫e karai ḏẖan savāraṇhār. ||2||
The Righteous Judge does their service. Felicitous is the Lord who adorns them.

ਮਨ ਕੇ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਮਨਹਿ ਤਜੈ ਮਨਿ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
मन के बिकार मनहि तजै मनि चूकै मोहु अभिमानु ॥
Man ke bikār manėh ṯajai man cẖūkai moh abẖimān.
If man sheds his mind's evils in the mind itself and banishes from it worldly love and self conceit,

ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਨੁ ॥
आतम रामु पछाणिआ सहजे नामि समानु ॥
Āṯam rām pacẖẖāṇi▫ā sėhje nām samān.
then does he come to recognise the Pervading Soul and easily gets absorbed in the Lord's name.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨੁ ॥
बिनु सतिगुर मुकति न पाईऐ मनमुखि फिरै दिवानु ॥
Bin saṯgur mukaṯ na pā▫ī▫ai manmukẖ firai ḏivān.
Without the True Guru, and apostate obtains not salvation and wanders about like a lunatic.

ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੈ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
सबदु न चीनै कथनी बदनी करे बिखिआ माहि समानु ॥३॥
Sabaḏ na cẖīnai kathnī baḏnī kare bikẖi▫ā māhi samān. ||3||
He reflects not on the Word but utters mere words from mouth and is engrossed in sins.

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
सभु किछु आपे आपि है दूजा अवरु न कोइ ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ḏūjā avar na ko▫e.
Everything the Lord Himself is. There is no other second.

ਜਿਉ ਬੋਲਾਏ ਤਿਉ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥
जिउ बोलाए तिउ बोलीऐ जा आपि बुलाए सोइ ॥
Ji▫o bolā▫e ṯi▫o bolī▫ai jā āp bulā▫e so▫e.
When that Lord Himself causes us to speak, we speak just as He wants us to speak.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
गुरमुखि बाणी ब्रहमु है सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥
Gurmukẖ baṇī barahm hai sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e.
The Exalted Guru's Word is God Himself and it is through Word that man obtains union with God.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਤੂ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੬੩॥
नानक नामु समालि तू जितु सेविऐ सुखु होइ ॥४॥३०॥६३॥
Nānak nām samāl ṯū jiṯ sevi▫ai sukẖ ho▫e. ||4||30||63||
O Guru Nanak! Remember thee God's Name, by serving whom, thou shalt obtain peace.

This part explains what the judge of dharma is to do, with the mercy and kindness of the almighty. I am going to oversimplify and say that the judge of dharma is the servant of the spiritual wayfarers who have enshrined the Treasure of the Lord's name in their hearts. In other words, these are the souls that have found balance, equipoise, alignment in dharma, oneness with the creator who is dharma.
 
Last edited:

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,005
1,095
In the Self
This part explains what the judge of dharma is to do, with the mercy and kindness of the almighty. I am going to oversimplify and say that the judge of dharma is the servant of the spiritual wayfarers who have enshrined the Treasure of the Lord's name in their hearts. In other words, these are the souls that have found balance, equipoise, alignment in dharma, oneness with the creator who is dharma.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Thanks for your time and I understand why you ask that we post a full shabad,we need to do it to make sense of things properly,I think I understand what you mean,but what is the judge of those souls without balance, equipoise and alignment?I ask only because I'm a member of that group.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
S Pimpernel ji

That is a good question in my opinion. The judge in the shabad lives in the service of the spiritual wayfarers. No where does the shabad say that all these spiritual wayfarers have arrived at the ultimate destination. They are listening to their servant. They can listen to their servant because they have chosen to make the journey. The lunatic has not made this choice, does not engage the servant. The lunatic is not listening

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨੁ ॥
बिनु सतिगुर मुकति न पाईऐ मनमुखि फिरै दिवानु ॥
Bin saṯgur mukaṯ na pā▫ī▫ai manmukẖ firai ḏivān.
Without the True Guru, and apostate obtains not salvation and wanders about like a lunatic.

ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੈ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
सबदु न चीनै कथनी बदनी करे बिखिआ माहि समानु ॥३॥
Sabaḏ na cẖīnai kathnī baḏnī kare bikẖi▫ā māhi samān. ||3||
He reflects not on the Word but utters mere words from mouth and is engrossed in sins.

It is an interesting point that in Gurbani there is room for the possibility that the spiritual journey can be peopled by individuals at different stages of the journey, and room for the possibility that some others have not even found their way to the road.

And it seems rather harsh to judge oneself or another, when the righteous judge is busily occupied serving those who genuinely seek its guidance. The judge is there for the lunatics too...though their plight rings a note of profound sadness. Lunatics scrambling about on the hard scrabble landscape, falling and injuring themselves all the more. Others, who have chosen the journey, creeping forward, or moving quickly, but always with the inner guide.

It is also possible in Gurbani for there to be a state of complete moral abandonment. and for those lost to be rescued Gurprasaad. The "judge" puts us "right"...remember that dharma is "rightness"...or in our modern way... the judge puts us straight when we lose our way. Others have forsaken that option and perhaps cannot or will not seek the road and the journey, in order to take the advice of their servant/judge.

My supposition: the judge of dharma and the inner knower, the searcher of hearts are related.
 
Last edited:

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,005
1,095
In the Self
S Pimpernel ji

That is a good question in my opinion

Spnadmin ji if you say so then it gives me hope as I usually expect a slapped wrist from you ,it was a sweet surprise to have a thoughtful exchange of views ,merci bien

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ਛੰਤ
रागु सूही महला ५ छंत
Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 cẖẖanṯ
Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, Chhant:



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਿਠ ਬੋਲੜਾ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮੋਰਾ
मिठ बोलड़ा जी हरि सजणु सुआमी मोरा ॥
Miṯẖ bolṛā jī har sajaṇ su▫āmī morā.
My Dear Lord and Master, my Friend, speaks so sweetly.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਹਉ ਸੰਮਲਿ ਥਕੀ ਜੀ ਓਹੁ ਕਦੇ ਬੋਲੈ ਕਉਰਾ
हउ समलि थकी जी ओहु कदे न बोलै कउरा ॥
Ha▫o sammal thakī jī oh kaḏe na bolai ka▫urā.
I have grown weary of testing Him, but still, He never speaks harshly to me.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਕਉੜਾ ਬੋਲਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਭਗਵਾਨੈ ਅਉਗਣੁ ਕੋ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ
कउड़ा बोलि न जानै पूरन भगवानै अउगणु को न चितारे ॥
Ka▫uṛā bol na jānai pūran bẖagvānai a▫ugaṇ ko na cẖiṯāre.
He does not know any bitter words; the Perfect Lord God does not even consider my faults and demerits.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਸਦਾਏ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਭੰਨੈ ਘਾਲੇ
पतित पावनु हरि बिरदु सदाए इकु तिलु नही भंनै घाले ॥
Paṯiṯ pāvan har biraḏ saḏā▫e ik ṯil nahī bẖannai gẖāle.
It is the Lord's natural way to purify sinners; He does not overlook even an iota of service.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਨੇਰੈ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਨੇਰਾ
घट घट वासी सरब निवासी नेरै ही ते नेरा ॥
Gẖat gẖat vāsī sarab nivāsī nerai hī ṯe nerā.
He dwells in each and every heart, pervading everywhere; He is the nearest of the near.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਜਣੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥੧॥
नानक दासु सदा सरणागति हरि अम्रित सजणु मेरा ॥१॥
Nānak ḏās saḏā sarṇāgaṯ har amriṯ sajaṇ merā. ||1||
Slave Guru Nanak seeks His Sanctuary forever; the Lord is my Ambrosial Friend. ||1||

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:
Top