Islam The Concept Of Hell And Heaven In Sikhi

[Tejwant Singh]

Naraynjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

I commend you for responding to Championdebater3000 (which is 91 years away for the "future champion" of debates).

You have responded to each of his points in the right way. This person has no idea what debate means. He wants to fight so he can believe in his dogmatic religion. Some religions require that because they lack any reasoning and logic ( hence lack of his debating skills). When one tries to prove all the time that his/her religion is the best then it shows that it lacks lots of things and is nothing but a blind faith. Little does he know that truth needs no faith. Only make believe things need that.

His so called arguments are full of holes and are not worth any discussion because he is not here to debate, interact or learn something in a mutual sense but to spew hatred, which shows what kind of faith he follows.

So, once again, please accept my gratitude for your responses.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[ChampionDebater3000]

u both have lost and are losing right now.

 

[spnadmin]

Well Tejwant ji - Thank you and I tend to agree. My earlier remarks were based on a hypothesis. Particularly since right-about-now the forum is due for another "dawah."

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Naranyanjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

"Dawah" shows that the faith is lacking in many things and the first and foremost is acceptance of all from ONE SOURCE. SGGS gives us the tools so we can learn how to breed goodness within and share with others. Gurbani instills in us to breed this trait within," I see no stranger, I feel no enmity".

This is the reason we serve Nirbhau, Nirvair Ik Ong Kaar who is a lover, not a punisher. A True Father is the one that hugs us even when we make mistakes because He knows that one can only learn through making mistakes. A True Father is a motivator under all circumstances, not a punisher.

This is why the meaning of a Sikh is a seeker, a learner, a student and Ik Ong Kaar is our True Teacher.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[ChampionDebater3000]

u applaud each others ignorance and defend it too

 

[spnadmin]

In post number 14 I predicted that you, C- debater ji, would resort to this.

Prediction
In the practice of "dawah" -- First your opponent ( C-debater ji in this case) will say that you his opponent have a shaky position in the debate. He will imply or say that your fundamental religious beliefs are weak on logic. He will then say that his beliefs in Islam are clean, clear and and sturdy.

In post number 12 I also predicted you would resort to this.

Prediction
So the only reason why I am taking the time to do this is really for the benefit of young Sikhs who are dragged into these periodic episodes of Muslim "dawah" which is deliberately designed to mislead you and eventually demoralize you.
So far here is the way it works :happykaur:

1. A statement is made or a question is asked, based on an assertion, that seems innocent and possibly true.
2. After close examination the statement is really shaky in terms of how true it really is based on the facts.
3. After making a factually shaky statement, the daweah-vatchnak follows up with some questions that are really assertions that pit Sikhism against Islam.
4. The final bit is to suggest you might be shy. That is a kind one. Sometimes the suggestion is that you are stupid or ignorant or incapable of thinking for yourself.

Tejwant ji - Thank you for your insights. It is more difficult to live constantly in a way that is worthy of a loving parent than it is to please an angry one. Something to reflect on. It may be why some choose anger over love.

 

[ChampionDebater3000]

This is the reason we serve Nirbhau, Nirvair Ik Ong Kaar who is a lover, not a punisher
in Page 1245, Line 17
ਜਮ ਦਰਿ ਬਧੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੨੧॥
जम दरि बधे मारीअहि नानक हरि भाइआ ॥२१॥
Jam ḏar baḏẖe mārī▫ah Nānak har bẖā▫i▫ā. ||21||
Bound and gagged at Death's door, they are beaten and punished; O Nanak, it pleases the Will of the Lord. ||21||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

is the 'Will of the Lords' the same as the 'Will of Nirbhau/Nirvair Ik Ong Kaar?' please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[spnadmin]

Really?

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."



Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."


Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers."

Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..." from Hadith




Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'" from Hadith


Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." from Hadith


Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." from Hadith


Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" from Hadith


Ibn Ishaq 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” from Hadith

These quotes are taken from a web site for Jewish Muslim engagement. The idea being: It is not easy to come to terms with the religious hatred expressed in Quran and Hadith.

 

[ChampionDebater3000]

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥
जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥
Jo sir sāʼn▫ī nā nivai so sir ḏījai dār.
Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

one word: context.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

This is the reason we serve Nirbhau, Nirvair Ik Ong Kaar who is a lover, not a punisher
in Page 1245, Line 17
ਜਮ ਦਰਿ ਬਧੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੨੧॥
जम दरि बधे मारीअहि नानक हरि भाइआ ॥२१॥
Jam ḏar baḏẖe mārī▫ah Nānak har bẖā▫i▫ā. ||21||
Bound and gagged at Death's door, they are beaten and punished; O Nanak, it pleases the Will of the Lord. ||21||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

is the 'Will of the Lords' the same as the 'Will of Nirbhau/Nirvair Ik Ong Kaar?' please correct me if i'm wrong.

ChampionDebater3000,

Guru Fateh.

I have a request to make. When you post something from the SGGS, our ONLY GURU, please post the whole Shabad and give its context if you happen to know. If you do not we can help you understand it.

So, let's start all over. Shall we?

Will wait for you to post the whole Shabads with your own understanding so we can have a constructive dialogue. Showing your hatred, anger and disdain in all your posts does not make you a good Muslim or does it?

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

C-debater ji

I will give you some help and a clue as to the shabad's meaning. the line right before it is

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਹੋਆ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਹੀ ॥
jin ko hoaa kirapaal har sae sathigur pairee paahee ||
Those upon whom the Lord showers His Mercy, fall at the Feet of the True Guru.

I am just now realizing how different that is from other religions. In Sikhism we receive His mercy, kirapaai har sae. First we receive mercy, then we fall at the feet of the True Guru. In humility and gratitude. In many other faiths, a person has to fall first and then ask for mercy and hope to get it.

There is a very strong possibility that Guru Angad Dev ji is not expecting the reader to take him literally. When he says, Chop off that head, ji, it might be a metaphor for something.

Are the passages I posted below from the Quran and Hadith metaphors?

 

[Randip Singh]

In your belief of heaven do you get lots of virgins there to look after you if you crash aeroplanes into buildings killing thousands of innocent people?

if u had an independant mind rather than being brainwashed you would know that 9/11 was an inside job

Actually I a from an Engineering background and have watched those so called idiotic conspiracy videos that claim the twin towers were detonated. There was no detonation.

They collapsed exactly as they should have. I have been to hundreds of detonations of High rises, and they do not collapse like that. When we detonate High rises they are stripped back to the shell.

The main problem with the twin towers was the fire retardant around the steel was blown away by the initial impact. Steel melts very farm, and buckles even at lower teperature.

Those Psycho Islamic Militants made sure their planes had maximum fuel, so as to cause maximum carnage. All because they believe they will get virgins in heaven.

If that is your concept of heaven, I would rather be dammed as a K a f i r!:happy:

 

[ChampionDebater3000]

I am just now realizing how different that is from other religions
you claim that God has favoured you by saying His Mercy is upon you before you 'fall'? sound like a christian missionary to me. copy cats.
you fall at the 'feet' of a book not God. if that book was burnt then where would you bow?

Steel melts very farm, and buckles even at lower teperature.
why not boil some water in a steel kettle over a blue flame? boil it all day long, see if the blue flame burns the steel. your short sightedness extends to every area of your life. how sad.

Those Psycho Islamic Militants made sure their planes had maximum fuel, so as to cause maximum carnage. All because they believe they will get virgins in heaven.
u r a virgin.

Chop off that head that bows down to a book rather than the True One God. dont worry its metaphorical! your judgement lies with God, not men. :{;o:

These answers you give are actually good examples of why many members have asked us to pre-moderate any and all submissions to the forum. They want us to keep comments that are immature and uninformative like this out. We don't pre-moderate. You are by this message showing you are incapable of debate. Our job now is to make sure that your misrepresentations do not seem as if they are legitimate answers and legitimate questions. At this point, we are looking at replies that are inane. The last two are gibberish. This is not debating. We have given you a lot more room to explain your views than other people may have received in the past. So please be warned. You are on the way to seeing this thread closed or deleted.

Narayanjot Kaur

 

[Admin]

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥
जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥
Jo sir sāʼn▫ī nā nivai so sir ḏījai dār.
Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

one word: context.

Dear Qasim, what you have done in your last post is called manipulation or coercion in plain English. Perhaps, this is how you interpret manipulate your scriptures. Although, there is no use to present any explanation to a mindset like you, but certainly it is would be important to expand on this Shabad for the benefit of the young Sikh minds, who come here to understand Gurmat. I am no Sikh scholar as such and i would request the learned members to correct me if i am wrong.

The quoted line taken out of context by dear Qasim (ChampionDebator3000), means that one has to change his brain formatting (not brainwashing!), let go his/her Ego so that the same person now understands the presence of 'The Sat', The God, The Almighty. This way the individual gives up her or his old head and gets a new one - of course functionally and not physically. It means changing the frame of mind and not chopping the head off. Sikh history provides evidence that Guru Sahibs have never done so and never asked any one to do so. :advocate:

Now, the question then arises:"Is there any reference of Head being used in any other place in SGGS as a synonym for Ego?? "

The answer is yes:

The famous lines,

"Jey Tau Prem Khelan Ka Chao. Sir Dhar Tali Gali Mori Aao" (SGGS Panna 1412)
Literally means, "If you are keen to play the game of love then come with your head on your palm."

Here the reference is not to be prepared to act out another Baba Deep Singh ji style Shaheedi but it means "The Game of Love with God requires as a prerequisite the annihilation of one's Ego".

To put one's head on one's palm implies to deny Ego any place to hide in the body. Ego is supposed to reside in the Head.

To kill Ego is also equated to die before actual physical death. That is to kill one's self.

Similarly, there is another line from a Shabad:

Pehla Maran Kabool, Jeevan Ki Chhad Aas. Hohu Sabhan Ki Renka Tau Aao Hamare Paas. (SGGS 1102)

First accept death (of self), abandon any hope for life. Then bring yourself, your ego to be the dust of everyone's feet, only then you come to me (to God).

Similarly, here comes the lines quoted by ChampionDebator3000 and another one:

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥
जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥
jo sir saaN-ee naa nivai so sir deejai daar.
Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
नानक जिसु पिंजर महि बिरहा नही सो पिंजरु लै जारि ॥१॥
naanak jis pinjar meh birhaa nahee so pinjar lai jaar. ||1||
O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1||

Panna/Page 89, Line 2

and also says that Muslims, who don't offer five prayers should be killed.


kabhee chal na aa-i-aa panjay vakhat maseet. ||70||
You never come to the mosque for your five daily prayers. ||70||

ਉਠੁ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਉਜੂ ਸਾਜਿ ਸੁਬਹ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਿ ॥
उठु फरीदा उजू साजि सुबह निवाज गुजारि ॥
uth fareedaa ujoo saaj subah nivaaj gujaar.
Rise up, Fareed, and cleanse yourself; chant your morning prayer.

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਪਿ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥੭੧॥
जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु कपि उतारि ॥७१॥
jo sir saaN-ee naa nivai so sir kap utaar. ||71||
The head which does not bow to the Lord - chop off and remove that head. ||71||

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਕਾਂਇ ॥
जो सिरु साई ना निवै सो सिरु कीजै कांइ ॥
jo sir saa-ee naa nivai so sir keejai kaaN-ay.
That head which does not bow to the Lord - what is to be done with that head?

ਕੁੰਨੇ ਹੇਠਿ ਜਲਾਈਐ ਬਾਲਣ ਸੰਦੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੭੨॥
कुंने हेठि जलाईऐ बालण संदै थाइ ॥७२॥
kunnay hayth jalaa-ee-ai baalan sandai thaa-ay. ||72||
Put it in the fireplace, instead of firewood. ||72||
Panna/Page 1381, Line 13

The writer(s) (Sheikh Fareed or Guru Nanak) are having discussions with their inner mind. They are telling themselves, metaphorically, that if you do not have the Lord in your mind it is not worthwhile to have a mind to begin with.

Note: This reply is compiled from various discussions on this topic already going on at SPN elsewhere and includes a crux of thought processes of two or three individuals.

Again, all this explanation is for those, who come to here to evovle, learn and understand the true, deeper meaning of Gurmat.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni



:happysingh:

 

[Sikh royalist]

The main idea behind the usage of the concept of hell is to instigate fear in the human mind because no power what so ever enters our mind that easily as fear does it is like a storm which forces us to think about our actions on the other hand heaven is used to allure us this is simple human psychology behind the concept of hell and heaven which is prevalent in most of the world religions.
whereas if we give a look to the Sikh perspective the salvation is like a heaven and getting birth after birth a hell i don't see any other aspect of this concept in Sikhism.
since our master Guru Nanak made us fearless he presented a view of god who loves us helps us to sustain how can he punish us? we are away from him because of our mistakes not his and will find him after realizing the truth.
Guru Nanak and Bhagat Kabir and even Bhagat Seikh Fareed have presented in front of us the miseries of separation and the problems of old ages and have given us the reason to do good to get good and have not inspired fear in our minds.

As a Sikh i do not want heaven at the same time i do not fear hell.(heaven and hell here are as per the concept of other religions)

 

[Randip Singh]

Steel melts very farm, and buckles even at lower teperature.
why not boil some water in a steel kettle over a blue flame? boil it all day long, see if the blue flame burns the steel. your short sightedness extends to every area of your life. how sad.

Those Psycho Islamic Militants made sure their planes had maximum fuel, so as to cause maximum carnage. All because they believe they will get virgins in heaven.
u r a virgin.

Whether I'm a Virgin or not is immaterial.

What comes through your post is you are illiterate and believe in a medieval belief system that believes in killing innocent people will get you the favour of virgins in heaven.

Instead of believing in the tooth fairy, leprechauns and lalla land give a thought to what science states about the buckling effect on steel by fire. Even Oak beams outlast steel beams in fire.

As for chopping heads, I would rather do that to myself than believe in your archaic beliefs.

 

[Randip Singh]

The main idea behind the usage of the concept of hell is to instigate fear in the human mind because no power what so ever enters our mind that easily as fear does it is like a storm which forces us to think about our actions on the other hand heaven is used to allure us this is simple human psychology behind the concept of hell and heaven which is prevalent in most of the world religions.
whereas if we give a look to the Sikh perspective the salvation is like a heaven and getting birth after birth a hell i don't see any other aspect of this concept in Sikhism.
since our master Guru Nanak made us fearless he presented a view of god who loves us helps us to sustain how can he punish us? we are away from him because of our mistakes not his and will find him after realizing the truth.
Guru Nanak and Bhagat Kabir and even Bhagat Seikh Fareed have presented in front of us the miseries of separation and the problems of old ages and have given us the reason to do good to get good and have not inspired fear in our minds.

As a Sikh i do not want heaven at the same time i do not fear hell.(heaven and hell here are as per the concept of other religions)

page 969


ਕਵਨੁ ਨਰਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ਸੰਤਨ ਦੋਊ ਰਾਦੇ ॥
कवनु नरकु किआ सुरगु बिचारा संतन दोऊ रादे ॥
Kavan narak ki▫ā surag bicẖārā sanṯan ḏo▫ū rāḏe.
What is hell, and what is heaven? The Saints reject them both.

ਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕਢਤੇ ਅਪਨੇ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੇ ॥੫॥
हम काहू की काणि न कढते अपने गुर परसादे ॥५॥
Ham kāhū kī kāṇ na kadẖ▫ṯe apne gur parsāḏe. ||5||
I have no obligation to either of them, by the Grace of my Guru. ||5||

Those who dwell in the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar live in a permanent hell.

page 337

ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ॥
गउड़ी पूरबी ॥
Ga▫oṛī pūrbī.
Gauree Poorbee:

ਸੁਰਗ ਬਾਸੁ ਨ ਬਾਛੀਐ ਡਰੀਐ ਨ ਨਰਕਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥
सुरग बासु न बाछीऐ डरीऐ न नरकि निवासु ॥
Surag bās na bācẖẖī▫ai darī▫ai na narak nivās.
Don't wish for a home in heaven, and don't be afraid to live in hell.

ਹੋਨਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਮਨਹਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਆਸ ॥੧॥
होना है सो होई है मनहि न कीजै आस ॥१॥
Honā hai so ho▫ī hai manėh na kījai ās. ||1||
Whatever will be will be, so don't get your hopes up in your mind. ||1||

ਰਮਈਆ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਈਐ ॥
रमईआ गुन गाईऐ ॥
Rama▫ī▫ā gun gā▫ī▫ai.
Sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord,

ਜਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਰਮ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जा ते पाईऐ परम निधानु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jā ṯe pā▫ī▫ai param niḏẖān. ||1|| rahā▫o.
from whom the most excellent treasure is obtained. ||1||Pause||

ਕਿਆ ਜਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੋ ਕਿਆ ਬਰਤੁ ਕਿਆ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
किआ जपु किआ तपु संजमो किआ बरतु किआ इसनानु ॥
Ki▫ā jap ki▫ā ṯap sanjamo ki▫ā baraṯ ki▫ā isnān.
What good is chanting, penance or self-mortification? What good is fasting or cleansing baths,

ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥੨॥
जब लगु जुगति न जानीऐ भाउ भगति भगवान ॥२॥
Jab lag jugaṯ na jānī▫ai bẖā▫o bẖagaṯ bẖagvān. ||2||
unless you know the way to worship the Lord God with loving devotion? ||2||

ਸੰਪੈ ਦੇਖਿ ਨ ਹਰਖੀਐ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਨ ਰੋਇ ॥
स्मपै देखि न हरखीऐ बिपति देखि न रोइ ॥
Sampai ḏekẖ na harkẖī▫ai bipaṯ ḏekẖ na ro▫e.
Don't feel so delighted at the sight of wealth, and don't weep at the sight of suffering and adversity.

ਜਿਉ ਸੰਪੈ ਤਿਉ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਹੈ ਬਿਧ ਨੇ ਰਚਿਆ ਸੋ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
जिउ स्मपै तिउ बिपति है बिध ने रचिआ सो होइ ॥३॥
Ji▫o sampai ṯi▫o bipaṯ hai biḏẖ ne racẖi▫ā so ho▫e. ||3||
As is wealth, so is adversity; whatever the Lord proposes, comes to pass. ||3||

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਬ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਸੰਤਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਝਾਰਿ ॥
कहि कबीर अब जानिआ संतन रिदै मझारि ॥
Kahi Kabīr ab jāni▫ā sanṯan riḏai majẖār.
Says Kabeer, now I know that the Lord dwells within the hearts of His Saints;

ਸੇਵਕ ਸੋ ਸੇਵਾ ਭਲੇ ਜਿਹ ਘਟ ਬਸੈ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੨॥੬੩॥
सेवक सो सेवा भले जिह घट बसै मुरारि ॥४॥१॥१२॥६३॥
Sevak so sevā bẖale jih gẖat basai murār. ||4||1||12||63||
that servant performs the best service, whose heart is filled with the Lord. ||4||1||12||63||

 

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