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The Death Penalty?

aristotle

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May 10, 2010
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What about these type of cases?

kds Ji,

What do you think about Swami Aseemanand (Source: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/aseemanand-confessed-role-in-samjhauta-blast-claims-probe/734614) and Sadhvi Pragya Thakur(Source: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...desperate+to+carry+out+blasts’/1/29648.html), or Kishori Lal (Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2wGgjDG1Yk)?

It is an open secret they are bound to be declared scot-free or at the most served with petty penalties, just because they belong to the majority community.

This game is much bigger than meets the eye.
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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kds Ji,

What do you think about Swami Aseemanand (Source: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/aseemanand-confessed-role-in-samjhauta-blast-claims-probe/734614) and Sadhvi Pragya Thakur(Source: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...desperate+to+carry+out+blasts’/1/29648.html), or Kishori Lal (Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2wGgjDG1Yk)?

It is an open secret they are bound to be declared scot-free or at the most served with petty penalties, just because they belong to the majority community.

This game is much bigger than meets the eye.

I think you did not get my point.The news mentioned that Guru was promoting Im men to carry out terrorists attacks all over India.

And this is not about Afzal Guru . Many Hi profile big criminals in India can easily operate their crime network from jail.So what to do do about them if death penalty is not given to them?

As far Kishori lal or Aseemanand is concerned they too should had been given death penalty
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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the death penalty issue only raises itself for crimes proven and of suffiicient magnitude, and even then must be carried out with compassion.

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. There is no compassion in the death penalty no matter how many heinous crimes the criminal has committed. To call murdering a murderer compassion is a cop out, hatred, vengeance and stooping to the level of the murderer's values. We are better than that.

I have no idea if you remember or not, when Balbir Singh Sodhi was gunned down at his gas station in AZ immediately after 9-11 by Frank Silva Roque, he was given the death penalty. The Sodhi family fought till the AZ Supreme Court to have the sentence changed to life without parole. That is the Sikhi spirit and as mentioned before, it also costs a lot less than the death penalty.

@KDS: Unfortunately justice is not blind in India but is blindfolded. Hypocricy is the mode de jour laced with a lot of corruption. India claims itself to be the largest democracy in the world but it acts like Israel against its "enemies", another democratic country. But again that does not mean we should abandon our Sikhi principles and stoop low.

It is interesting to notice that the country which is considered the most "religious" where people chant mantras and other babbles 24/7 is the worst country as far as its morality in all aspects is concerned.

Tejwant Singh
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Tejwantji

In the circumstances you mention, I can understand why the family did this.

I do not know the background, maybe there was remorse, maybe the family understood the aspect of mistaken identity, but some crimes are so repulsive, so horrible that removal is the only option open.

I quote the tenth master,. "When all other means have failed, it is but righteous to draw the sword."
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwantji

In the circumstances you mention, I can understand why the family did this.

I do not know the background, maybe there was remorse, maybe the family understood the aspect of mistaken identity, but some crimes are so repulsive, so horrible that removal is the only option open.

I quote the tenth master,. "When all other means have failed, it is but righteous to draw the sword."

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

The family did it because it is against Sikhi to stoop to that level and become judge, jury and executioner. There was no mistaken identity. The defence claimed the murderer was insane which was rejected by the judge and the jury.

No matter how repulsive the crimes are, stooping to the same level is not a Sikhi value according to me.

I quote the tenth master,. "When all other means have failed, it is but righteous to draw the sword.

Lastly, you have misunderstood the verse by our Dasam Guru. It is about fighting against injustice which may involve killing as a self defence or to defend others. It has nothing to do with vengeance which the death penalty is. In the same breath, let's not forget what our Dasam Guru told Bhai Ghaniyah which was, not only offer water to those who considered us their enemies but also do something to heal their war wounds.

This is the true Sikhi spirit.

Let's agree to disagree on this point.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Harry Haller

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Let's agree to disagree on this point.
Tejwantji, your post fills me with confusion, so if you will humour me, I would like to clarify.

The family did it because it is against Sikhi to stoop to that level and become judge, jury and executioner. There was no mistaken identity. The defence claimed the murderer was insane which was rejected by the judge and the jury.
By mistaken identity, I mean the mistaking of a Sikh for a Muslim. But here is where I am confused, the family did not wish to be judge, jury and executioner, but they had no need to be, that is what the courts and the federal facilities are there for.

No matter how repulsive the crimes are, stooping to the same level is not a Sikhi value according to me.
Then perhaps you will join me in my distaste that some murderers and terrorists are celebrated at the very highest authority that exists in Sikhi.Perhaps you can explain why the shooting of an unarmed woman, by men that were paid to protect her, has resulted in these men being honoured and lauded?

Lastly, you have misunderstood the verse by our Dasam Guru. It is about fighting against injustice which may involve killing as a self defence or to defend others. It has nothing to do with vengeance which the death penalty is. In the same breath, let's not forget what our Dasam Guru told Bhai Ghaniyah which was, not only offer water to those who considered us their enemies but also do something to heal their war wounds.
I have never mentioned vengeance, but I do believe in justice. My only support for the death penalty is to protect the innocents that would suffer if a certain type of person were allowed to live.

For the record, the crime you have mentioned, I think it is right this was changed to life, however, let us talk about say Saddam, the man was tried, convicted, and hung. There were no other options, and we must not close our minds to the fact that this option does exist.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwantji, your post fills me with confusion, so if you will humour me, I would like to clarify.

Harry ji,

Let me give it another shot. No pun intended.

By mistaken identity, I mean the mistaking of a Sikh for a Muslim. But here is where I am confused, the family did not wish to be judge, jury and executioner, but they had no need to be, that is what the courts and the federal facilities are there for.

It does not matter. Mistaken identity out of ignorance which results in a heinous murder is wrong. Hatred is hatred. Period.

Then perhaps you will join me in my distaste that some murderers and terrorists are celebrated at the very highest authority that exists in Sikhi.Perhaps you can explain why the shooting of an unarmed woman, by men that were paid to protect her, has resulted in these men being honoured and lauded?

I am in total agreement with your above post starting from Bhindranwale, I must add.

I have never mentioned vengeance, but I do believe in justice. My only support for the death penalty is to protect the innocents that would suffer if a certain type of person were allowed to live.

Justice is a very subjective thing and how killing someone will protect the innocents from suffering? Life without parole can do the same or may help the victims heal because they know the person is paying the price with his/her every breath till the last breath which may take years. This is the true punishment for the crimes committed in my opinion. Killing the criminal acts as a saving grace.

For the record, the crime you have mentioned, I think it is right this was changed to life,however, let us talk about say Saddam, the man was tried, convicted, and hung. There were no other options, and we must not close our minds to the fact that this option does exist.

Before talking about Sadaam Hussain, let's admit that we have been in bed with many people like him and still are. Iraq was a manufactured war by The US and The UK. Sadaam was one cruel and fiendish man like many of our other friends, either dictators, Kings or Chiefdoms. We gave him the WMD's to be used against Iran. Both Rumsfeld and Cheney who worked in the American Administration did that and we have the pictures of them with Hussain as the proofs. We did not defend the Kurds as Papa Bush promised them when Saddam used WMD's supplied by us on them. Saudi Arabia is the same as Saddam if not worse. The one good thing according to me Sadaam did was giving $25k to each Palestinian family whose houses were bulldozed by the Israeli Defence Forces at will, which did not set well with us nor with our BFF Israel.

Sadaam should have been captured, tried and hanged if that were to be the law of the land by its own people, not by us. By invading Iraq, we handed it over to Iran and made Iran bolder to become nuclear because neither the Brits nor the Yankees understood the difference between the Shias and the Sunnis. Sadaam was our buffer zone, the second good thing he did for us against Iran, the advantage that we lost because of the invasion of Iraq. Now, Iraq is Iran's closest ally because both countries are Shias and Iraq along with Iran is helping Assad of Syria who is also a Shia. We lost more that 5000 of our best and billions of dollars for naught.

By ignoring Afghanistan in order to spread democracy in Iraq, we made Afghanistan the largest exporter of heroin which was sold to our kids to fund the terrorists to kill our soldiers. In other words, we funded wars on both sides

If we ponder all the above, we would perhaps take a different view.

Tejwant Singh
 
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TigerStyleZ

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Mar 30, 2011
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A true Khalsa would try not to mix his own feelings with the commited deed of the culprit.

As Sikhs and Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh ji:animatedkhanda1:, we need to find the right conclusion via (Gurbani), because Gurbani is our dictator. We need to decide through Sikh principles - of what is unjust and what just. We cant just sit there and do nothing , because a 'psycho' will continue to murder - and if Guru ji would do nothing(not creating Khalsa) there would hardly be ANY Sikh left. Even if in one Situation we made the wrong choice, in the end creator knows.
The death penality is ONlY then given , when all other things fail ! (rehabilitation etc...)
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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A true Khalsa would try not to mix his own feelings with the commited deed of the culprit.

As Sikhs and Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh ji:animatedkhanda1:, we need to find the right conclusion via (Gurbani), because Gurbani is our dictator. We need to decide through Sikh principles - of what is unjust and what just. We cant just sit there and do nothing , because a 'psycho' will continue to murder - and if Guru ji would do nothing(not creating Khalsa) there would hardly be ANY Sikh left. Even if in one Situation we made the wrong choice, in the end creator knows.
The death penality is ONlY then given , when all other things fail ! (rehabilitation etc...)


TigerStylez ji,

Guru Fateh.

I think you are confused between killing someone to defend oneself in order to to fight tyranny and injustice, and the death penalty. Many death penalties are given to the innocent who have been accused wrongly. With the help of science,many of them have been released but many have been sent to the gallows for the crimes they did not commit, which is NOT the Sikhi Way. We, as Sikhs have the responsibility to defend all the innocent. That is what Gurbani teaches us.

Tejwant Singh
 

TigerStyleZ

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Mar 30, 2011
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318
Germany
I dont think I am confused , if someone is given the death penality the person (judge , or whatever) deals for his or the interest of the whole society/community. Lets take an example of a raper/murder. Because they are 'dangerous' not only for oneself but or the common good. Thats why I said : The death penality is/should only then given , when all other things fail ! (rehabilitation, scientific prove etc...) In the end you cant be 100 % sure if someone is guilty or not . There is and still will be a risk that you have the wrong person. So in this case the death penality is dealing with 'injustice' as well.

Furthermore you have to ponder why the 'crime' commited has been commited, maybe the person was forced to do and deal like this.

Yes, you are right we have to defend all innocents , but what is with a suspicious ? Will you be able to let him go and let him his free will? Or would you like to see him in 'prison' until he isnt guilty? But in the same time you are stealing his limited time on eath...

The other question that arises is that - how far we can go as human beings to control /know someoone unique and pure identity?
 
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