You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
The destiny, end of it and freewill
- Thread starter labhdig
- Start date
- Replies 9
- Reads 1K
Thank you for sharing these insightful thoughts, I am still drilling into these- quite interesting. I gather you are saying that we have freewill only if we are on the path of spiritual discovery and awakening ( as laid out in AGGS) and if we remain buried in the material world then all our actions are pre-determined ( destined) and outcome are as per Hukum.
One thing seems clear that you are also alluding to the same thing what I stated in one of my another posts on SPN that we do not have Absolute free will ; we have only partial /quasi free will.
In any case, can you please help me with the following clarifications to help me fully grasp what you are saying:
1) can you please expand on "be in the Self" - what you are trying to convey; what or who is this "Self";
2) Can you also please provide your understanding of the Pankti you quoted: " Dukh Daro Sukh Roog..........."AGGS Ang 469
There is another important question that I will follow up once I am clear on these two,. Thanks
Guru Fetah
One thing seems clear that you are also alluding to the same thing what I stated in one of my another posts on SPN that we do not have Absolute free will ; we have only partial /quasi free will.
In any case, can you please help me with the following clarifications to help me fully grasp what you are saying:
1) can you please expand on "be in the Self" - what you are trying to convey; what or who is this "Self";
2) Can you also please provide your understanding of the Pankti you quoted: " Dukh Daro Sukh Roog..........."AGGS Ang 469
There is another important question that I will follow up once I am clear on these two,. Thanks
Guru Fetah
Last edited:
Thank you for sharing these insightful thoughts, I am still drilling into these- quite interesting. I gather you are saying that we have freewill only if we are on the path of spiritual discovery and awakening ( as laid out in AGGS) and if we remain buried in the material world then all our actions are pre-determined ( destined) and outcome are as per Hukum.
One thing seems clear that you are also alluding to the same thing what I stated in one of my another posts on SPN that we do not have Absolute free will ; we have only partial /quasi free will.
In any case, can you please help me with the following clarifications to help me fully grasp what you are saying:
1) can you please expand on "be in the Self" - what you are trying to convey; what or who is this "Self";
2) Can you also please provide your understanding of the Pankti you quoted: " Dukh Daro Sukh Roog..........."AGGS Ang 469
There is another important question that I will follow up once I am clear on these two,. Thanks
Guru Fetah
Thanks for your response! I'll try to answer from my understanding what you have asked about the post. (just a little curious as to why you keep referring to SGGS as AGGS?)
First a small addition to my previous note- The freewill does not change the destiny but it changes the experience of it, therefore, makes the desire of changing the destiny unnecessary. It is the most empowering gift given by God making human life precious. (Think of all Shaheed Singh, Singhania, Sahibzaade who left the world without being miserable and in Chardi Kala.)
----------------------
Gurbani calls ‘being in self’ as being in Nij Ghar, Thir ghar. Thir ghar baiso har jan piyare.
In my limited understanding of small part of Gurbani I have contemplated on, the closest word that probably means freewill is MANNIYA- where it means ‘to apply’.
Jinni sun kai mania tina nij ghar vaas – SGGS, Ang
Take the example of life being a bhav-sagar. The person getting thrashed by waves is the human experiencing life. Boat is the Guru. Hearing Guru tell how to get on the boat is Grace. Getting on board is your freewill. Sitting on the boat and seeing waves play its drama is being in Nij ghar and transcending Maya.
If from being Spiritual means to be in your own true home/state, then yes, in my understanding, the freewill comes to be useful only after you have become spiritual and have an enlightened Guru to guide you.
--------------------------
In my view, God does not give anything partially. So, the destiny and freewill both are absolute but our use of freewill can be binary or partial.
Manmukh- the one who uses manmatt- When life is driven by mind, all choices are made with guidance coming from the mind that is polluted over many incarnations, the destiny is fully experienced. The person does not know he has freewill. It is as good as not having any freewill.
Jeewan Mukta – sits in Nij Ghar all the time. Though the destiny (prarabdha) is unfolding, it has no effect on him. The destiny goes on like a burnt rope that looks like a rope but has no strength in it. It is as good as not having any destiny.
Gurmukh – the one who uses gurmatt– starts walking the way Guru has shown. Practices being in the Nij ghar and therefore, has access to gurmat when he needs it. As he practices, the mind starts to become purer changing the perception/response to conditions and situations in life. The Guru helps him on his way until he becomes strong enough and learns to be in Nij ghar with Sahaj. He is using freewill and changes his experience of destiny.
In all scenarios, the destiny goes on as it is prewritten. The freewill is used to be in the state of true Self.
Likhia lekh na mete koi Gurmukh mukt karavanya – SGGS, ANG 109
-----------------------
Dukh daroo sukh rog bhayiya- SGGS, Ang 469
A surfer will not look for a boat while surfing. However, only when the waves become bigger and constant, when the surfboard breaks and he gets tired, he will look for rescue.
When we are in ignorance and live in our false self, false identity, there is no awareness as to what is real self is. We are comfortable in our dream world. Dukh, not one but relentless, constant Dukh become daaroo that wake us up. It is only in hindsight, we realize those were not dukh but blessings to get us home.
Thank you for your perspective and for an insightful response to help me understand. I truly appreciate the time and effort you took to put together these thoughts.Thanks for your response! I'll try to answer from my understanding what you have asked about the post. (just a little curious as to why you keep referring to SGGS as AGGS?)
First a small addition to my previous note- The freewill does not change the destiny but it changes the experience of it, therefore, makes the desire of changing the destiny unnecessary. It is the most empowering gift given by God making human life precious. (Think of all Shaheed Singh, Singhania, Sahibzaade who left the world without being miserable and in Chardi Kala.)
----------------------
Gurbani calls ‘being in self’ as being in Nij Ghar, Thir ghar. Thir ghar baiso har jan piyare.
In my limited understanding of small part of Gurbani I have contemplated on, the closest word that probably means freewill is MANNIYA- where it means ‘to apply’.
Jinni sun kai mania tina nij ghar vaas – SGGS, Ang
Take the example of life being a bhav-sagar. The person getting thrashed by waves is the human experiencing life. Boat is the Guru. Hearing Guru tell how to get on the boat is Grace. Getting on board is your freewill. Sitting on the boat and seeing waves play its drama is being in Nij ghar and transcending Maya.
If from being Spiritual means to be in your own true home/state, then yes, in my understanding, the freewill comes to be useful only after you have become spiritual and have an enlightened Guru to guide you.
--------------------------
In my view, God does not give anything partially. So, the destiny and freewill both are absolute but our use of freewill can be binary or partial.
Manmukh- the one who uses manmatt- When life is driven by mind, all choices are made with guidance coming from the mind that is polluted over many incarnations, the destiny is fully experienced. The person does not know he has freewill. It is as good as not having any freewill.
Jeewan Mukta – sits in Nij Ghar all the time. Though the destiny (prarabdha) is unfolding, it has no effect on him. The destiny goes on like a burnt rope that looks like a rope but has no strength in it. It is as good as not having any destiny.
Gurmukh – the one who uses gurmatt– starts walking the way Guru has shown. Practices being in the Nij ghar and therefore, has access to gurmat when he needs it. As he practices, the mind starts to become purer changing the perception/response to conditions and situations in life. The Guru helps him on his way until he becomes strong enough and learns to be in Nij ghar with Sahaj. He is using freewill and changes his experience of destiny.
In all scenarios, the destiny goes on as it is prewritten. The freewill is used to be in the state of true Self.
Likhia lekh na mete koi Gurmukh mukt karavanya – SGGS, ANG 109
-----------------------
Dukh daroo sukh rog bhayiya- SGGS, Ang 469
A surfer will not look for a boat while surfing. However, only when the waves become bigger and constant, when the surfboard breaks and he gets tired, he will look for rescue.
When we are in ignorance and live in our false self, false identity, there is no awareness as to what is real self is. We are comfortable in our dream world. Dukh, not one but relentless, constant Dukh become daaroo that wake us up. It is only in hindsight, we realize those were not dukh but blessings to get us home.
1) You asked me why AGGS and not SGGS?
The Guru Sahib's Saroop that I have states as its title: "Adh Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji"
2) You write: “The freewill does not change the destiny but it changes the experience of it, therefore, makes the desire of changing the destiny unnecessary.”
This is clear but I also think a little more clarity is needed based on what you said it your last post: “freewill starts when you ….start using the jugat”. This means that all the actions that may be the part of the “jugat” were not in our Lekha/destiny - they are freely determined. These are all the “add-on” to the destiny for everyone who decides to follow Guru and plans to implement (Maniya) Guru's teachings.
3) Your write: “If from being Spiritual means to be in your own true home/state, then yes, in my understanding, the freewill comes to be useful only after you have become spiritual and have an enlightened Guru to guide you.”
If you are already in Nij Ghar ( you are enjoying the seeing the waves as you are sitting in the boat and transcending Maya, you are de facto out of “three-Gunn” Maya and in 4th State). If this is the case , then why would you need an enlightened Guru anymore; where do you wish to go from there, if you are already in 4th State and in NIj Ghar? Is it not where Joti and Jot proceed to merge or is there another place where this union of Jot and Joti takes place and one becomes Sachiara?
I hope I am making some sense.
Guru Fetah!
Thank you for your perspective and for an insightful response to help me understand. I truly appreciate the time and effort you took to put together these thoughts.
1) You asked me why AGGS and not SGGS?
The Guru Sahib's Saroop that I have states as its title: "Adh Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji"
2) You write: “The freewill does not change the destiny but it changes the experience of it, therefore, makes the desire of changing the destiny unnecessary.”
This is clear but I also think a little more clarity is needed based on what you said it your last post: “freewill starts when you ….start using the jugat”. This means that all the actions that may be the part of the “jugat” were not in our Lekha/destiny - they are freely determined. These are all the “add-on” to the destiny for everyone who decides to follow Guru and plans to implement (Maniya) Guru's teachings.
3) Your write: “If from being Spiritual means to be in your own true home/state, then yes, in my understanding, the freewill comes to be useful only after you have become spiritual and have an enlightened Guru to guide you.”
If you are already in Nij Ghar ( you are enjoying the seeing the waves as you are sitting in the boat and transcending Maya, you are de facto out of “three-Gunn” Maya and in 4th State). If this is the case , then why would you need an enlightened Guru anymore; where do you wish to go from there, if you are already in 4th State and in NIj Ghar? Is it not where Joti and Jot proceed to merge or is there another place where this union of Jot and Joti takes place and one becomes Sachiara?
I hope I am making some sense.
Guru Fetah!
I need to make two corrections to my previous post - one you pointed out and the other after giving thought to it.
Corrected version: If from being spiritual means you know how to get to nij ghar, then the freewill comes to be useful only after you have become spiritual and have an enlightened Guru to guide you.
Second correction: Gurmukh is probably the Jeewan mukta or close to being Jeewan mukta, is in full acceptance and surrender to Guru/God. So I need to replace gurmukh with gursikh(Guru Arjan Dev ji mentions 4 kinds of Sikhs in 'Sikhan di Bhagat Mala').
Working on rest of the response.
You are free to wish, put effort, and act.
The prarabdha is experienced in Maya through the mind. When you are in nij ghar, you are freed from suffering that is created by the mind. So even though everything you receive in this world is predetermined, you are free to choose to be in a state that is always blissful, full of love, and peaceful. It is like someone taking a medicine for pain. Only in this case, you are not escaping from what is happening but putting effort consciously to change your state from suffering to being in bliss. The Guru keeps on repeating this message to put this effort. Which means you are free to take that action.
Gaavat Sunat sabhe hi mukte so dhiyaeeai jin ham keeye jeeo
The moment one goes to nij ghar, in that moment he is free from Maya.
The prarabdha is experienced in Maya through the mind. When you are in nij ghar, you are freed from suffering that is created by the mind. So even though everything you receive in this world is predetermined, you are free to choose to be in a state that is always blissful, full of love, and peaceful. It is like someone taking a medicine for pain. Only in this case, you are not escaping from what is happening but putting effort consciously to change your state from suffering to being in bliss. The Guru keeps on repeating this message to put this effort. Which means you are free to take that action.
Gaavat Sunat sabhe hi mukte so dhiyaeeai jin ham keeye jeeo
The moment one goes to nij ghar, in that moment he is free from Maya.
Last edited:
GurpreetSinghShinh
SPNer
- Mar 11, 2024
- 23
- 1
- 47
A slave is a slave, because he is free.
Our will truly becomes free (of cause and effect), only when bonded with Guru's will
Our will truly becomes free (of cause and effect), only when bonded with Guru's will
No one can skip the work required to get one’s mind merge in its original source.
No human is a slave to his destiny.
The state of full acceptance can be the result of work of many lifetimes. Those who live in that state are Gurmukhs, Panch(the chosen ones). But what about the rest? How do they get there? The Guru calls upon every ‘human being’ irrespective of one’s state/awastha and tells that every one of you can transcend Maya.
Bhai prapat manukh dehuria, Gobind milan ki eh teri baria.
So how do the ones who are not there yet get there?
The destiny works on our body through mind/maya. We relate our destiny to Sukh/dukh in our lives. The Guru says you can get to a state where:
Sukh dukh dono sam kar janai or maan apmaana. Harakh sog te rahe ateeta tin jag tut pachhana.
To get there, one needs to put effort, practice Guru’s instructions and repeat it. That is where the freewill is used. No one can escape this effort and work required to be in the state of true Self, the nij ghar. Sajjan thug had to do it. Kauda, the cannibal had to do it. Ajaamal had to do it. Ganaka had to do it. The process is the easiest thing in the world, it is constantly staying in nij ghar that is harder. That is what requires practice. Maya will pull one towards it but when you have Guru’s instructions, support, grace with you, then another state becomes open to you. Now you have a choice; stay embroiled and consumed by your destiny or choose to get in this new door that has opened up because of Grace. You have the freewill to choose Guru’s door to nij ghar. This is the work that Guru will not do for you. One has to do it oneself.
How long it takes? I have no clue. It is Guru’s Grace. What pleases Guru? I think it is one’s intention and effort put in following Guru’s instructions that pleases Guru. No effort goes unnoticed. The Guru is absolute, unconditional love who can see through you.
As your practice becomes regular, you start finding peace irrespective of what is going on outwardly.
To get to the place of acceptance of Guru's will, you need to follow the instructions of the Guru and get there with practice, experience and sehaj. It is only then one can be happy being a slave to the Guru.
No human is a slave to his destiny.
The state of full acceptance can be the result of work of many lifetimes. Those who live in that state are Gurmukhs, Panch(the chosen ones). But what about the rest? How do they get there? The Guru calls upon every ‘human being’ irrespective of one’s state/awastha and tells that every one of you can transcend Maya.
Bhai prapat manukh dehuria, Gobind milan ki eh teri baria.
So how do the ones who are not there yet get there?
The destiny works on our body through mind/maya. We relate our destiny to Sukh/dukh in our lives. The Guru says you can get to a state where:
Sukh dukh dono sam kar janai or maan apmaana. Harakh sog te rahe ateeta tin jag tut pachhana.
To get there, one needs to put effort, practice Guru’s instructions and repeat it. That is where the freewill is used. No one can escape this effort and work required to be in the state of true Self, the nij ghar. Sajjan thug had to do it. Kauda, the cannibal had to do it. Ajaamal had to do it. Ganaka had to do it. The process is the easiest thing in the world, it is constantly staying in nij ghar that is harder. That is what requires practice. Maya will pull one towards it but when you have Guru’s instructions, support, grace with you, then another state becomes open to you. Now you have a choice; stay embroiled and consumed by your destiny or choose to get in this new door that has opened up because of Grace. You have the freewill to choose Guru’s door to nij ghar. This is the work that Guru will not do for you. One has to do it oneself.
How long it takes? I have no clue. It is Guru’s Grace. What pleases Guru? I think it is one’s intention and effort put in following Guru’s instructions that pleases Guru. No effort goes unnoticed. The Guru is absolute, unconditional love who can see through you.
As your practice becomes regular, you start finding peace irrespective of what is going on outwardly.
To get to the place of acceptance of Guru's will, you need to follow the instructions of the Guru and get there with practice, experience and sehaj. It is only then one can be happy being a slave to the Guru.
Last edited:
GurpreetSinghShinh
SPNer
- Mar 11, 2024
- 23
- 1
- 47
Sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice (of body and mind)...till infinitum...is the Hukam of Nanak.
GurpreetSinghShinh
SPNer
- Mar 11, 2024
- 23
- 1
- 47
De Shiva bar mohe ehe
Shub Karman te kabhun na taru
Na daru, arso jab jaye ladoon,
Nishchay kar apni Jeet karoon.
Jab aad ki oud nidhan bane
Aat hi rann mein tab jooj maru (na ke maaru as of terrorists)
~ Unless this becomes National Anthem of Bharat, progress is hopeless.
~ Modis may come, modis may go
Shub Karman te kabhun na taru
Na daru, arso jab jaye ladoon,
Nishchay kar apni Jeet karoon.
Jab aad ki oud nidhan bane
Aat hi rann mein tab jooj maru (na ke maaru as of terrorists)
~ Unless this becomes National Anthem of Bharat, progress is hopeless.
~ Modis may come, modis may go
📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:
