..you tell'em Lady!
The Doctrine: Manmukh And Gurmukh
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now I am confused, really confused, because when I asked you what difference your dream theory made to you, you replied,
"Huge. Like when your eyes have been opened your whole outlook changes. Instead of hopelessness of thinking this one short life is it before ceasing to exist for rest of eternity, you know there is more. I mean it’s kind of depressing to think that the average 70-80 years is it. That every bit of knowledge you gain, the hobbies you learned, the things you studied, even memories fade and in only a few generations are forgotten. I know very little about my great grandparents. Any further back forget it. So what was the purpose... why live, love, learn, gain wisdom, if only a very very few will ever even be remembered a few generations in the future? What was the point? "
so could you explain to me, if you have the time, and bearing in mind I have not taken Amrit, hell I am not even a Sikh, what is the difference between the community service person doing it as a punishment, and you doing it for personal gain, so that you get to live for eternity, what is so holy about that?
By the way, if you don't can't answer that question, that brings the total number of questions I have asked you that you have made no effort to answer about 38, if you like I can find them all and put them all in one post!
thanks
oh, your not allowed to use any of your standard answers,
1. I have not taken amrit so I could not possibly understand
2. you have already answered the question and are refusing to answer again
3. you have answered the question in a previous post
We are such vile, evil, sinful creatures that God cannot stand the sight of us unless we are washed clean in the blood of Jesus Christ; no amount of good deeds can ever overcome our inherent sinful nature. Grace is both necessary and sufficient Good works are largely irrelevant. This is the traditional belief of Christian Protestants.
Sikhi teaches nothing like this. If I have it correct, Sikhs are called upon to grow spiritually with a combination of grace and good works. This is strongly implied in the Mul Mantra, which is familiar to every Sikh. Just because I feel like it, I'm posting it here. No arguments, please, about whether only the first line in Mul Mantra; that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please just take a look at it in light of this discussion.
ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~
ਜਪੁ ॥
Jap.
Chant And Meditate:
ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥
Āḏ sacẖ jugāḏ sacẖ.
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥
Hai bẖī sacẖ Nānak hosī bẖī sacẖ. ||1||
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||
It is not for me to name anyone Gurmukh or Manmukh; I am only fairly certain that those calling themselves "Gurmukh" aren't because to so praise oneself is certainly an indication of a big ego. I'm not even certain that these classifications apply outside the Sikh community.
Sikhi teaches nothing like this. If I have it correct, Sikhs are called upon to grow spiritually with a combination of grace and good works. This is strongly implied in the Mul Mantra, which is familiar to every Sikh. Just because I feel like it, I'm posting it here. No arguments, please, about whether only the first line in Mul Mantra; that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please just take a look at it in light of this discussion.
ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~
ਜਪੁ ॥
Jap.
Chant And Meditate:
ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥
Āḏ sacẖ jugāḏ sacẖ.
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥
Hai bẖī sacẖ Nānak hosī bẖī sacẖ. ||1||
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||
It is not for me to name anyone Gurmukh or Manmukh; I am only fairly certain that those calling themselves "Gurmukh" aren't because to so praise oneself is certainly an indication of a big ego. I'm not even certain that these classifications apply outside the Sikh community.
Harinder Singh of SikhRi
"If we find answers to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God.
It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.
Without imperfection, you or I would not exist."
#StephenHawkingRIP
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Of course not. Only an individual would know their own avastha and we are told in Gurbani to only judge ourselves and also that the only one who will know who is a Brahamgyani is the Brahamgyani. So best we can do is keep both believing enough in Gurbani to actually try and implement it in our lives. It is after all a solo journey.
My point on the criminal is that being forced to do seva is not exactly selfless is it? Most do it grudgingly and without putting their heart into it. Sure it might change someone down the road but at that moment when they hand a sandwich to a homeless guy, while at the same time feeling rage at being there in the first place ...I don’t think that qualifies as ‘selfless’
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First of all, nobody can do service for a life of eternity. We all already exist eternally as ONE. There is no trading good deeds for eternity a’la Abrahamic religions.
Second I don’t do anything I might do in hopes of personal gain. At least I try my hardest. I still struggle sometimes with wanting a little bit of recognition if I did something major and I feel bad if someone else got the recognition. That’s a personal demon I have (metaphorically of course).
When it comes to seva, and selflessness if service is done for the wrong reasons that persons eyes likely won’t be opened the same way as laying aside your own ego and doing it selflessly. At least that’s my understanding. As an adult I can understand that cleaning my home is rewarding for my family but as a child filled with anger because Mom told me I have to clean my room or else no play time, and do it on the edge of a tantrum I could not see the reward of having a clean room. I couldn’t see through that fog of anger or selfishness.
What I meant was not that the homeless person wasn’t going to be fed either way, but that when someone is forced to do something out of punishment they will usually not see how they are helping others because they are blinded by their own rage, selfishness, resentment. And I guess this is where five thieves comes in and how they affect us. Now someone who believes in doing service selflessly for no other reason than to benefit others, will see things differently. Instead of being blinded by rage and resentment they will more likely see the good that service is benefiting others. But more than that they will also feel empathy for the situation others are in.
Now I’m not saying the criminal could never see that and maybe some might see and really change. However they will have a lot more anger and resentment to deal with... that fog which will make it much more difficult.
Case in point, in the military I have felt much better about initiating a project on my own even if it ivolved physical work and was generally considered not fun. However when we were held back because someone messed up and the whole section was forced to do it as a punishment, there was an entirely different outlook.
I know you will say someone who doesn’t believe in a creator at all can still do selfless service and be a good person yes they can... but because their belief system is a bit different they may not notice or be interested in ‘finding Creator in all’ as Gurbani speaks of. If you aren’t looking for something or even more if you don’t believe in something, it will be much more difficult (though not impossible) to find. And there have been people who were no religious at all who had experiences that did open their eyes and changed their beliefs about life, creator etc. However they are very few because of you aren’t looking or interested in seeing, chances are you’ll miss it. That’s where belief comes in.
By the way holy is not really a Sikh term is it? I hope this got my thoughts across?? I don’t know how else to explain so please forgive me Harry Ji...
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that is quite a definitive statement, I would say that the Abrahamic religions probably disagree with you on that one.
well live and let live eh, if that is what they believe, that is what they believe, and that is what you believe
thank you for being honest, course you want recognition, you would not be human if you did not, it is that desire that in some way may drive you, that is probably the most endearing thing I have heard you say.
ok, but does doing it selflessly actually exist? everyone wants recognition, even the great and the good Sikhs that do loads want recognition, its a human trait, I would be wary if people didn't. Ultimately everything we do is for the self, surely? Could you name a purely selfless act, an act that is not entwined in either recognition, guilt, or love?
Hmm that again is quite a sweeping statement, one evening, about 20 years ago, having lost the lot (yes its a recurring theme), at the time I was utterly and madly in love with a girl I had met in the states, we were engaged, but she could not stand life with a drunk, so she flew back, I was miserable, more miserable than I thought possible, I rang an old girlfriend and convinced her to meet, I turned up with a bottle of scotch, the next memory I have is waking up on a roundabout with flashing blue lights behind me, as the policeman opened the door, I fell out, and looking at the stars, and hearing the question, 'sir have you been drinking', I think I replied with ' what do you think sherlock', I got community service, I was genuinely sorry, I had to work in a charity shop for a year, I did not feel rage, or selfishness or resentment, just sorrow, not for myself, I saw it as a chance to put things right for what was a bad bad action, I could have killed someone, not all people who do community service will feel that resentment, a great many good fall, and when they fall, they are grateful for the chance to try and put things right, I met many who were truly sorry, who saw the service as way of righting things.
again that is not restricted to the good, and I wager that no one does anything selflessly for no other reason than to benefit others, that would be quite stupid really, even the Gurus had a point in doing things, a lesson to be learned, a concept to be taught, I feel the Gurus acted in a way to teach and encourage the concept of brotherhood and sisterhood, it is not a selfless act to benefit another for no other reason than that persons benefit, or is it? you may disagree.
I love these definitive sweeping statements, you have never been a criminal, you have never been to prison, you have never done community service, so how could you possibly know? I have been to prison, I did not see anger and resentment, I saw regret, sorrow, I did not actually see much self pity. In my life I have interacted with all sorts of people, even the most hardened criminals I have come across were gentlemen, some were more a gentlemen than some Sikhs I have come across, most had been in prison, none were angry, none were resentful, all realised they were on the wrong path, but then, what made them criminals? Strangely enough, all had a massive belief in God, they respected the law of the jungle, of God, more than a man made law.
actually, no, I won't, but I would say that someone who doesn't believe in a creator is more honest about their agenda as to why they may do good deeds
actually if you are not looking for something, and if you don't believe in something, there is nothing to find
I have nothing to forgive you for, as you never spited me, I just wish that members would fully explain themselves and their concepts even the difficult hard bits so that understanding becomes easier, I respect and find endearing anyone that has the ability to do their best to explain their own way, I find it irritating when sweeping statements are made and no effort at all is made to back such up, this is after a forum, not a platform
thank you for the time taken to answer my questions
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By the way truly selfless acts happen all the time. The stranger who leaps in front of an oncoming bus to save a child that isn’t theirs. This has happened and the stranger did die. They had no reason not even time to think about personal recognition or being a hero. It was a truly selfless act. Or a medic who goes above and beyond, ignoring commands that it’s too dangerous to go and save an injured soldier. In fleeting moments when we have no time to think at all and a life or death decision must be made, you’ll see truly selfless acts. More recently in the news I read a story about a young Mother to be whos baby was in danger of dying if they didn’t do a C section but her condition also was such that major surgery would likely kill her. She did the c section, the baby survived and she didn’t. What could she possibly have been trying to gain? I’d call that selfless...
But I do wonder why do you like to separate love from selfless? Isn’t love one of the things which drives selfless acts? (And I don’t mean romantic love but true love and empathy for all) If through love I put someone first is that not selfless? I’m not trying to gain anything if I truly desire to put their needs above mine.
But yes I struggle with the recognition thing. A good example recently I joined the fundraising committee for our Gurdwara and since my husband has missionary college training and the sangat liked his ardaas and shabad Vichar etc I came up with an idea to create a nitnem Cd containing him reciting the nitnem banis. The CD sale would go toward the building fund. I sold the idea to sangat by explaining how it’s a good resource to learn proper pronounciation etc. I had audio experience so I did the recording myself, I did the CD artwork and even organized the actual production / costs etc. In the end my husband got all the recognition by sangat. And I did struggle with that a bit. Well maybe more than a bit. Even though my intentions on creating it were never about recognition. I genuinely wanted to help the building fund which we were having trouble with.
But I do wonder why do you like to separate love from selfless? Isn’t love one of the things which drives selfless acts? (And I don’t mean romantic love but true love and empathy for all) If through love I put someone first is that not selfless? I’m not trying to gain anything if I truly desire to put their needs above mine.
But yes I struggle with the recognition thing. A good example recently I joined the fundraising committee for our Gurdwara and since my husband has missionary college training and the sangat liked his ardaas and shabad Vichar etc I came up with an idea to create a nitnem Cd containing him reciting the nitnem banis. The CD sale would go toward the building fund. I sold the idea to sangat by explaining how it’s a good resource to learn proper pronounciation etc. I had audio experience so I did the recording myself, I did the CD artwork and even organized the actual production / costs etc. In the end my husband got all the recognition by sangat. And I did struggle with that a bit. Well maybe more than a bit. Even though my intentions on creating it were never about recognition. I genuinely wanted to help the building fund which we were having trouble with.
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I would call it alleviation of guilt, rather than be haunted by a lifetime of guilt over an action that they did not do, it was better for them to die.
Love in my opinion, is for the smurfs, we love in order that we are loved back, if we were not loved back, then we would find it increasingly hard to love, no, you are correct, I have little time for love, and true love does not exist, if through love you put someone first, then it is the feeling of love that drives you to do it, love is not a concept, it is merely a flow of feel good chemicals in your head, we talk of the gooey blissful feeling of love, well, its quite addictive, I have done many many things in order to get high, people will do many many things in order to hang on to those chemicals in their head, even kidding themselves that what they are doing is for love, but they are just addicts to those chemicals, and those chemicals warp and corrupt the senses, as you said yourself, recognition is important, even more so in the game of love.
wow you just keep on giving today, do you not realise how utterly endearing the above is, in an instant, my respect and admiration for you shot up, because your being honest, not only about how you feel, but also about your agenda, and in my mind, there is nothing wrong in that, you did not harp on about how you did it for the love of god and humanity, and you did not really care about whether you were thanked or not, or some other rubbish that intimated what a good saintly person you were, you did it, there were reasons for doing it, some were good reasons, some were personal reasons, you thought about it, you realised your failings, even if one could call such a failing, and you achieved the goal and learned something about yourself, now that to me is quite beautiful, that is true humility, not the bullshit passive aggressive Uriah Heep crap that passes for humility in Sikhism, but true grounded honest humility.
thank you for your reply once again, made my day actually
Riders n Runners - good morning !
The real reason for posting this thread was twofold:
The journey is Sikh and a Sikh is a spiritual being having a human experience.
Much obliged
The real reason for posting this thread was twofold:
- set clear parameters for the graduates of the University of Life [manmukhs] and the students of Gurbani [Sikh, gurmukhs] to study the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
- lessen the onerous burden of answering repeatedly, irrelevant questions so that the ebb n flow of debates n discussions remain on course.
The journey is Sikh and a Sikh is a spiritual being having a human experience.
Much obliged
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i would be much obliged if you just answered the questions that people ask of you, with all due respect, who are you to set any parameters? you are merely a contributor to this forum, I see now you have changed the definition of Gurmukh again, first it was those that acted in bani, then it was those that believed in bani, now it is students of gurbani, I look forward to tomorrows definition with bated breath.
And thank you for your permission that all are equal and welcome, do you go to other peoples parties and stand by the door and do the same there as well?
@Original ji,
Sorry to say that you know very little about Sikhi and when challenged about your claims and proclamations, you hide under the mound you have created with your changing answers filled with falsehoods.
How many times have you changed the definitions of Manmukh and Gurmukh since you started this thread?
Why are you afraid to respond to your own false claims?
I expected a bit more from a barrister like you.
Having said that, FYI, Gurmukh and Manmukh are not degrees handed out from The Original University. They are used as adjectives in Gurbani, not as nouns. The same thing is true for the word Sant.
If your claims were true, then the word Sikh would cease to exist and so would Sikhi.
Do you realise this?
Is this your agenda with your Hindu mindset to disrupt the members of SPN who are using this forum to become better people irrespective of their hue, creed, faith, no faith and sexual orientation?
You will fail again as you always do whenever you make any false claims about Sikhi.
I am sure your degree as a Gurmukh graduate from The Original University is hanging in your living room with a fresh incense burning beside it 24/7.
SPN is the only Sikh forum that gives its members the Sikhi freedom to say what they like without any moderation.
Please do not abuse this Sikhi freedom but rather use it with gusto to better yourself and as a result, we will all reap the fruits of your sowing.
Thanks.
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Harkiran ji,
Guru Fateh.
Thanks for being candid about this incidence. We all want recognition for the work we do especially at the place where we scream equality with every other word. We all struggle with many things in our lives on the daily basis.
I hope you have raised lots of funds with your creative idea.
..with pleasure, on the proviso, questions pertain to Sikh Faith.
I'm a student who wants to explore and learn about his religion. Setting parameters help achieve objectives and on my part, an invitation to cooperative inquiry..
Goodnight n Godbless
Inderjeet Ji,
I too have lot of time for Stephen Hawking [RIP]. One of my favorite reads is his "brief history of time" - absolutely brilliant. On page 15 he questions "why we're here and where we came from ?". This line of questioning is also found in Sikh literature, albeit, theological. The difference is in perspective and not context. His perspective was science and Nanak's perspective is theology. But when you squeeze the two what do you get ? you get the beginning of everything from a "singularity" [science, bag bang] and "one" [theology, Ekonkar] point. However, where science stand to change its stance should new evidence emerge, theological concepts will not change. And rightfully so, because in this infinite expanse of the universe no anchor means no home - you're a lost soul. The underlying factor is "faith", an irrational component part of the rational human being. Science and irrationality don't gel, albeit, a desirable proposition on part Stephen Hawking when he said, “You cannot understand the glories of the universe without believing there is some Supreme Power behind it.”
Goodnight
I too have lot of time for Stephen Hawking [RIP]. One of my favorite reads is his "brief history of time" - absolutely brilliant. On page 15 he questions "why we're here and where we came from ?". This line of questioning is also found in Sikh literature, albeit, theological. The difference is in perspective and not context. His perspective was science and Nanak's perspective is theology. But when you squeeze the two what do you get ? you get the beginning of everything from a "singularity" [science, bag bang] and "one" [theology, Ekonkar] point. However, where science stand to change its stance should new evidence emerge, theological concepts will not change. And rightfully so, because in this infinite expanse of the universe no anchor means no home - you're a lost soul. The underlying factor is "faith", an irrational component part of the rational human being. Science and irrationality don't gel, albeit, a desirable proposition on part Stephen Hawking when he said, “You cannot understand the glories of the universe without believing there is some Supreme Power behind it.”
Goodnight
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Original Ji
Interesting you mention the Big Bang. Because from scientific standpoint, somehow the entire universe fit into an infinitely small pin point and from there expanded everything. Doesn’t that fit quite well with what Gurbani says about everything coming from ONE?
Interesting you mention the Big Bang. Because from scientific standpoint, somehow the entire universe fit into an infinitely small pin point and from there expanded everything. Doesn’t that fit quite well with what Gurbani says about everything coming from ONE?
Of course it does ! As I said above, its the one and the same but seen through different lenses. Stephen Hawking saw through science lenses and Nanak through theological lenses. The conundrum of course, is, that whilst manmukh searches/creates unknowingly outside into space, [science] with unending quest, the gurmukh is anchored to nam* [see below] and meditates within.
Moving on with what you've said above:
Call that "pin point" Big Bang or Ekonkar, but are they not words expressing something ?
And isn't word a sound with meaning ?
And isn't sound a shabd [word] when expounded ?
And isn't it the word from whence came creation [John 1:1 King James Bible] ?
And isn't it the word [alam] that precedes Quran' Sharif and holds true the creation ?
The aggregated sum of all of the above is Sound and sound is Nam.
And isn't word a sound with meaning ?
And isn't sound a shabd [word] when expounded ?
And isn't it the word from whence came creation [John 1:1 King James Bible] ?
And isn't it the word [alam] that precedes Quran' Sharif and holds true the creation ?
The aggregated sum of all of the above is Sound and sound is Nam.
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You forgot...
ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
Kīṯā pasā▫o eko kavā▫o.
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
(SGGSJ Ang 3)
(Note, since we aren’t really discussing specific shabads I was just posting a reference to a specific case where ‘word’ is used in consonance with cration in Gurbani. Hence why I didn’t post the whole shabad which would just be off topic...)
ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
Kīṯā pasā▫o eko kavā▫o.
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
(SGGSJ Ang 3)
(Note, since we aren’t really discussing specific shabads I was just posting a reference to a specific case where ‘word’ is used in consonance with cration in Gurbani. Hence why I didn’t post the whole shabad which would just be off topic...)
You forgot
Harkiran, this is interesting ! I wanted to use this, but I didn't because of the content within which it was uttered [by Nanak]. Sikh scriptures speak of creation [ਕਵਾਉ, through word, meaning sound], but in contexts macro n micro, that is, universe n world, respectively. And, in this instance ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ its the latter of the two. Nanak is mindful of the content of the subject matter [man and world as oppose to man and universe] and frames it accordingly.
I'm delighted with your finds -
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I had a bunch of things happen in my life with the passage of time. It perhaps is no different than many others at SPN. More specifically I have been absent since the passing of spnadmin ji. I would try to be little more participatory going forward.
In terms of the topic at hand in this thread, there are some very wonderful quotes/phrases that come in handy at times. The one that I particularly recollect is;
"it takes one to know one"
Be that one may want to consider one to be "Gurmukh" or "Manmukh", you really need to be one to know what or who is!
I know no living 100% Gurmukhs ( then again I am not capable to discern
) and similarly I know no living 100% Manmukhs, same argument applies.
All I can say is that we are various mixes of attributes described in SGGS so that we may consider ourselves to be part Manmukh and part Gurmukh.
Sat Sri Akal
PS: Perhaps a separate thread can address complementary topic of How is, How it came to be and where it will go in terms of the universe. Perhaps a point to ponder is that the more we try to be detrministic in these matters perhaps further from knowing we will become!
In terms of the topic at hand in this thread, there are some very wonderful quotes/phrases that come in handy at times. The one that I particularly recollect is;
"it takes one to know one"
Be that one may want to consider one to be "Gurmukh" or "Manmukh", you really need to be one to know what or who is!
I know no living 100% Gurmukhs ( then again I am not capable to discern
) and similarly I know no living 100% Manmukhs, same argument applies.All I can say is that we are various mixes of attributes described in SGGS so that we may consider ourselves to be part Manmukh and part Gurmukh.
Sat Sri Akal
PS: Perhaps a separate thread can address complementary topic of How is, How it came to be and where it will go in terms of the universe. Perhaps a point to ponder is that the more we try to be detrministic in these matters perhaps further from knowing we will become!
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