The Gursikh Project On Reincarnation!

[ax0547]

ਥਾਪਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਕੀਤਾ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਇ ॥

ਜਿਨਿ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਗਾਵੀਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥

ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥

ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥
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Here Guru Sahib is saying about god and what it is!
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ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥

ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥

ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥
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ax0547 ji

Now I understand why the discussion over Karma and reincarnation. I see that this was introduced in a much earlier post. Thank you for putting the whole conversation together the way you did.
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ax0547 ji

It would be wonderful if all discussions had collaboration even when there is disagreement. Then we would learn about different points of view without loosing our dignity.
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It is ok for Gurmukhi written in english, but translation is what I consider wrong. people who don't understand gurmukhi are forced to accept translations.

So our whole disscusion is about one translation being right and other being wrong based on our discussion regarding reincarnation- just so that we both understand the point of thread!
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ax5047 ji

Your concern with the translations is thoroughly understood and shared by many forum members. The problem with the translations is that all of them have problems. But what will the forum members who can't read the Gurmukhi (many people who are born into Sikhism are in the category) do? And what about the members who cannot understand the Gurmukhi or the transliteration? They will not be able to follow the discussion and then they will give up. So for learners at every step of the learning curve it is a good idea to include all three. If we put the Ang ("page" or "limb" number) with the shabad, then at least those who know how to use a search engine can look the shabad up for themselves. But without anything they are helpless and shut out of the conversation. Please forgive me.
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sure!
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Great!

 

[ax0547]

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥

ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥

ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥

 

[ax0547]

Interpretation Of Paudi-6


Paudi –6 and English Translation.


ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥All the created beings, that I behold, without good acts what are they given and what do they obtain?


2. ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥
The entire creation that I see gets nothing without Karmas and what would one get without Karmas.

[ The entire beings of the creation receives as per their karmas. No one is beyond this divine Law of the lord. In both the above two lines there is appreciation of the Lord, the creator, the causes of all causes and the architect of the destiny. The lines bring out the sheer helplessness of the creatures and the mortals. In bani the creatures and their helplessness has been stated at more than one places.)

Why isn't this Karma's meaning - blessings that makes more sense with pauri's before i.e. if everything is in hukam, then vin Karma(blessings) ke mile lai.

bul chuk maaf!
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pk70 ji

The same confusion is happening in the thread about Pauree 4. The karam is blessings as you say -- as in pooran karam. Hope my spelling is right. I was wondering myself where the idea of "Karma" came into the discussion since no one had recently brought it up. It is not related to the context of the shabad. That is what ax0547 was objecting to as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aad0002
pk70 ji

The same confusion is happening in the thread about Pauree 4. The karam is blessings as you say -- as in pooran karam. Hope my spelling is right. I was wondering myself where the idea of "Karma" came into the discussion since no one had recently brought it up. It is not related to the context of the shabad. That is what ax0547 was objecting to as well.

all this discussion is because of sant Sikh's online tranlations leads on into thinking big time that theory of Karma and reincarnation is accepted in sikhsim and these shabads are given as example. event sant singh translates as such. It might be that reincarnation is accepted, but not form the quotes until now and I doubt in future.
only reason they translate as Karma and reincarnation is because they have supposition of as such.

 

[ax0547]

ਜੇ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਆਰਜਾ ਹੋਰ ਦਸੂਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥

ਨਵਾ ਖੰਡਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥

ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਉ ਰਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਸੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਲੇਇ ॥

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥

ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥

ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ ॥੭॥

 

[ax0547]

ਜੇ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਆਰਜਾ ਹੋਰ ਦਸੂਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
Even if you could live throughout the four ages, or even ten times more,

ਨਵਾ ਖੰਡਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
and even if you were known throughout the nine continents and followed by all,

ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਉ ਰਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਸੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਲੇਇ ॥
with a good name and reputation, with praise and fame throughout the world-

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥
still, if the Lord does not bless you with His Glance of Grace, then who cares? What is the use?

ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥
O Nanak, God blesses the unworthy with virtue, and bestows virtue on the virtuous.

ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ ॥੭॥
No one can even imagine anyone who can bestow virtue upon Him. ||7||

 

[ax0547]

ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਉ ਰਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਸੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਲੇਇ ॥
with a good name and reputation, with praise and fame throughout the world-

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥
still, if the Lord does not bless you with His Glance of Grace, then who cares? What is the use?
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Here Guru Sahib explains that one may have everything but all is dependent upon blessings/karam of god and Nadir/grace - not Karma's/our deeds as of yet - especially not from past life!

 

[ax0547]

In eight Pauri Guru sahib is showing the importance of Listening ie.e our part to see door but without expectations of grace and leave upto god.
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਿਧ ਪੀਰ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਾਥ ॥
Listening-the Siddhas, the spiritual teachers, the heroic warriors, the yogic masters.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਧਰਤਿ ਧਵਲ ਆਕਾਸ ॥
Listening-the earth, its support and the Akaashic ethers.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥
Listening-the oceans, the lands of the world and the nether regions of the underworld.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਪੋਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕਾਲੁ ॥
Listening-Death cannot even touch you.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੮॥
Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||8||
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Same in Pauri Nine




ਸੁਣਿਐ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਇੰਦੁ ॥
Listening-Shiva, Brahma and Indra.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਲਾਹਣ ਮੰਦੁ ॥
Listening-even foul-mouthed people praise Him.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤਨਿ ਭੇਦ ॥
Listening-the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਵੇਦ ॥
Listening-the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੯॥
Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||9||

 

[ax0547]

Same until Pauri eleven!
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
Listening-truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਕਾ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
Listening-take your cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
Listening-reading and reciting, honor is obtained.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Listening-intuitively grasp the essence of meditation.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੧੦॥
Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||10||

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਰਾ ਗੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਗਾਹ ॥
Listening-dive deep into the ocean of virtue.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸੇਖ ਪੀਰ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ॥
Listening-the Shaykhs, religious scholars, spiritual teachers and emperors.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਅੰਧੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
Listening-even the blind find the Path.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਹਾਥ ਹੋਵੈ ਅਸਗਾਹੁ ॥
Listening-the Unreachable comes within your grasp.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥
O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੧੧॥
Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||11||

 

[ax0547]

ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
The state of the faithful cannot be described.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.

ਕਾਗਦਿ ਕਲਮ ਨ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
No paper, no pen, no scribe

ਮੰਨੇ ਕਾ ਬਹਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
can record the state of the faithful.

ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||

ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥
The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.

ਮੰਨੈ ਸਗਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥
The faithful know about all worlds and realms.

ਮੰਨੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਨਾ ਖਾਇ ॥
The faithful shall never be struck across the face.

ਮੰਨੈ ਜਮ ਕੈ ਸਾਥਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
The faithful do not have to go with the Messenger of Death.

ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੩॥
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||13||

 

[pk70]

In eight Pauri Guru sahib is showing the importance of Listening ie.e our part to see door but without expectations of grace and leave upto god. (quote ax0547 Ji)

Guru ji expressed how much important is His grace in Gur Vakas like" Nadree mokh duaar, Karmee avai kapra" why do you expect in every Pouri Guru needs to write about it. Here the power of Listening about Him is exprssed, it continues, one should not take literally that by simply listning one becomes this or that; as you have taken literal meaning of" Ordinance" and mingled it with your free will( in your earlier post) You are given free will to make choices unlike other beings. That is your free will. the choice brings action, action brings reaction, all that play falls under His Hukam. Hukam concept is very vaste. That is the way I try to understand Guru. Thanks.

 

[ax0547]

In eight Pauri Guru sahib is showing the importance of Listening ie.e our part to see door but without expectations of grace and leave upto god. (quote ax0547 Ji)

Guru ji expressed how much important is His grace in Gur Vakas like" Nadree mokh duaar, Karmee avai kapra" why do you expect in every Pouri Guru needs to write about it. Here the power of Listening about Him is exprssed, it continues, one should not take literally that by simply listning one becomes this or that; as you have taken literal meaning of" Ordinance" and mingled it with your free will( in your earlier post) You are given free will to make choices unlike other beings. That is your free will. the choice brings action, action brings reaction, all that play falls under His Hukam. Hukam concept is very vaste. That is the way I try to understand Guru. Thanks.

for sure by not only listening one becomes this or that, but it is part of process and guru sahib is showing that importance "the power of Listening about Him is exprssed" as you said. I know what freewill is, but I am going shabad by shabad. I know being locked in a room does not mean we have no ability to make/think choices. but this should not mean this life is beacause of our "bad" choices. we will figure it as we go along if it is said such in gurbani, but nothing yet.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Reincarnation is just a fancy word for recycling. We as living organisms who have to devour the other living organisms to survive.

"This is the law of the land, whether we like it or you understand." Harold Melvin and the Blue notes.

 

[ax0547]

Reincarnation is just a fancy word for recycling. We as living organisms who have to devour the other living organisms to survive.

"This is the law of the land, whether we like it or you understand." Harold Melvin and the Blue notes.

Nope go read the definitions - thats not how majority understands it and so on.