Gurus The Gurus' Wives?

[spnadmin]

“…day of mukhti is pre-ordained…” (Narayanjot Kaur)

In that case, what’s the point of having a Guru, or eleven Gurus, for that matter? One might as well live with a “devil may care” attitude, since the destination is pre-ordained!

Regards
Roger

Roger ji

That is a good question and a tough one. I hope you get answers that are worthy of the question.

We, all of us, have a Guru whether we realize it or not.

When the Shabd says that the day of mukhti is pre-ordained, what is meant is that it is "given" by the Grace of the Guru. Just like any other gift a person can realize that the gift is there for the taking. Or a person can walk through life in a daze without every realizing it is there. And there are those who have heard of this gift -- by way of the teachings of their faith -- but refuse to accept it and stubbornly continue on a path of self-imposed blindness.

Or to put it a different way,

ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਚਲੁ ॥
man maerae sathigur kai bhaanai chal ||
O my mind, walk in harmony with the True Guru.

I want to say that the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib is - as I have said several times in this thread - the blueprint for realizing God's Grace, the grace of the guru - to accept or reject or ignore. When rejected life continues to be a realm of suffering, either personal suffering, or suffering that one inflicts on others, or both.

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
pourree ||
Pauree:


ਜੇਵੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੇ ਫਲਤੇ ॥
jaevaehae karam kamaavadhaa thaevaehae falathae ||
According to the deeds which one does, so are the fruits one obtains.


ਚਬੇ ਤਤਾ ਲੋਹ ਸਾਰੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੰਘੈ ਪਲਤੇ ॥
chabae thathaa loh saar vich sanghai palathae ||
If someone chews on red-hot iron, his throat will be burned.


ਘਤਿ ਗਲਾਵਾਂ ਚਾਲਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੂਤਿ ਅਮਲ ਤੇ ॥
ghath galaavaan chaaliaa thin dhooth amal thae ||
The halter is put around his neck and he is led away, because of the evil deeds he has done.

ਕਾਈ ਆਸ ਨ ਪੁੰਨੀਆ ਨਿਤ ਪਰ ਮਲੁ ਹਿਰਤੇ ॥
kaaee aas n punneeaa nith par mal hirathae ||
None of his desires are fulfilled; he continually steals the filth of others.


ਕੀਆ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਕਿਰਤਘਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਫਿਰਤੇ ॥
keeaa n jaanai akirathaghan vich jonee firathae ||
The ungrateful wretch does not appreciate what he has been given; he wanders lost in reincarnation.


ਸਭੇ ਧਿਰਾਂ ਨਿਖੁਟੀਅਸੁ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਈਅਸੁ ਧਰ ਤੇ ॥
sabhae dhhiraan nikhutteeas hir leeas dhhar thae ||
He loses all support, when the Support of the Lord is taken away from him.
v

ਵਿਝਣ ਕਲਹ ਨ ਦੇਵਦਾ ਤਾਂ ਲਇਆ ਕਰਤੇ ॥
vijhan kaleh n dhaevadhaa thaan laeiaa karathae ||
He does not let the embers of strife die down, and so the Creator destroys him.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਕਰਤੇ ਅਹੰਮੇਉ ਝੜਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਪੜਤੇ ॥੩੨॥
jo jo karathae ahanmaeo jharr dhharathee parrathae ||32||
Those who indulge in egotism crumble and fall to the ground. ||32||
Guru Arjan Dev - Ang 317

So it is not a case of "devil may care." Because those who wallow in greed, pride, hatred, anger and attachment are never happy because they never have enough.

One last note in reply to the question about Gurus. Why have them? All of our Guru's proclaim -- there is only one Guru, one Satguru. I leave it to you to re-read the shabads I have posted so you can try to understand that the title given them, the eleven gurus, as Guru is nothing more than an acknowledgment that each one is suffused with the light of the "One." Each had discovreed his "True Identity, the Sat Nam, and tried to teach others in a selfless way. This last sentence represents my personal understanding of the purpose and history of Sikhism.

I will find another shabad for you that underlines this idea.

 

[spnadmin]

What is "mukhti?"

Guru Amardas says, this is the goal.

ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਭੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਗਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
mil sathigur sabh dhukh gaeiaa har sukh vasiaa man aae ||
Meeting the True Guru, all my sufferings have ended, and the Peace of the Lord has come to dwell within my mind.


Here is one complete shabad that explains the relationship between a Sikh of the Guru and Satguru (True Guru), and tells us what the True Guru teaches.

ਮਃ ੪ ॥
ma 4 ||
Fourth Mehl:


ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਕਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
sathigur kae jeea kee saar n jaapai k poorai sathigur bhaavai ||
The sublime state of the True Guru is not known; no one knows what pleases the Perfect True Guru.

ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੋ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਨੋ ਲੋਚੈ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਖੁਸੀ ਆਵੈ ॥
gurasikhaan andhar sathiguroo varathai jo sikhaan no lochai so gur khusee aavai ||
Deep within the hearts of His GurSikhs, the True Guru is pervading. The Guru is pleased with those who long for His Sikhs.


ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਆਖੈ ਸੁ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਨਿ ਸੁ ਜਪੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਸਚਾ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
sathigur aakhai s kaar kamaavan s jap kamaavehi gurasikhaan kee ghaal sachaa thhaae paavai ||
As the True Guru directs them, they do their work and chant their prayers. The True Lord accepts the service of His GurSikhs.


ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਪਾਸਹੁ ਕੰਮੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਲੋੜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
vin sathigur kae hukamai j gurasikhaan paasahu kanm karaaeiaa lorrae this gurasikh fir naerr n aavai ||
But those who want the GurSikhs to work for them, without the Order of the True Guru - the Guru's Sikhs shall not come near them again.


ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ਲਾਇ ਘਾਲੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਗੈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥
gur sathigur agai ko jeeo laae ghaalai this agai gurasikh kaar kamaavai ||
One who works diligently for the Guru, the True Guru - the GurSikhs work for him.


ਜਿ ਠਗੀ ਆਵੈ ਠਗੀ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
j thagee aavai thagee outh jaae this naerrai gurasikh mool n aavai ||
One who comes to deceive, who rises up and goes out to deceive - the GurSikhs shall never come near him.


ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ॥
breham beechaar naanak aakh sunaavai ||
Nanak proclaims and announces this wisdom of God.

ਜਿ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਮਨੁ ਮੰਨੇ ਕੰਮੁ ਕਰਾਏ ਸੋ ਜੰਤੁ ਮਹਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
j vin sathigur kae man mannae kanm karaaeae so janth mehaa dhukh paavai ||2||
One who is not pleasing to the Mind of the True Guru may do his deeds, but that being will only suffer in terrible pain. ||2||

This is by Guru Ram Das on Ang 317. Each statement is full of longing for that special kind of liberation in which a Sikh longs to belong to the Sat Nam, to find the Sat Nam within. The first line of the shabad tells us that we cannot know what God want directly, through direct knowledge and experience, or by scholarly debate. We must let God and his gur prasaad , His Grace, guide us from within. Because His Grace is already there within, "deep within." The Sikh Gurus knew this and that is what they taught as gurus. They taught that when we realize the presence of His Grace God is pleased. Then we do His work. Then we are not distracted by those who would ignore This Presence.

Each one of us who goes on this journey has a gift waiting. That is what is pre-ordained.

 

[ballym]

“…day of mukhti is pre-ordained…” (Narayanjot Kaur)In that case, what’s the point of having a Guru, or eleven Gurus, for that matter? One might as well live with a “devil may care” attitude, since the destination is pre-ordained!

Yes, there is doublespeak!
But we are not learned and do mistakes. We do not follow right path and corrupt our minds with maya etc.(KaamKrLoMohM). This is what we have to be careful about. If you can do it yourself, it is ok but is very difficult because our brain is a very powerful tool and must be handled properly.

Do u think a lady in a village busy n household chores has the understanding you have?... she NEEDS a guru. She does not have internet and access to SPN either! Any T, D and H can go to her house , promise her to double her money in one day and dupe her. ( No offence to females). So most of us need a guru.
Many of us are satisfied with a book as a Guru and can understand the meaning and get guidance in present context ( that is why religion has to be always evolving, not static) .
This self- directed guidance( like a self-directed investment account) may not be correct/ right one as no one is there to cross check my understanding. Here at SPN we continuously crosscheck and modify our ideas from others' feedback or viewpoint( like authentic websites like CNN, wall street journal, there are so many millions of fake sites and fake advisors!). In old times we had shaastraarth/ Vaad- Vivaad. It was considered ultimate level of knowledge and truth.
That is why we have more atheists ( in traditional sense) now because more peoplle realise that religion is not able to guide them.... but they are spiritual.
So EACH person HAS DIFFERENT level of understanding. Brain functionality is different. Neuron signal transmission function is different.
What you need is not needed by others. Afterall what you take/get is givenup by someone else!( Demand and supply).
My wife has a different understanding/ level which may be higher than mine. Recently I read Jagatguru Kripalu Maharaj Literature. As stated by NJ Kaur Ji, they also say that each one of us is married to god. We should love him LIKE we love our spouse.It means deep love and for our understanding, eaxemplified by love between spouses. We are all Radha and must love God Krishna without any condition/ inhibition.They have argued that ultimate happiness is by bhakti.
If everybody is at same level , there will be no conflict but human brain is a powerful spoiler.
That is why Gyan( Knowledge) is important and ESSENTIAL. Sex education is also important for the same reason.
A true guru never says that you are dumb, he/she just guides u or tries to identify your need and guide u.You can be your OWN GURU but the risk is higher. can u take that risk?
I guess my feedback is too long.

 

[spnadmin]

ballym ji

I have several concerns regarding your reply. Here are some of them.

Yes, there is doublespeak!
But we are not learned and do mistakes. We do not follow right path and corrupt our minds with maya etc.(KaamKrLoMohM).

Sikhism is not about being learned. It is all about making mistakes and finding grace to stand up and start over again, a life time if needed.

This is what we have to be careful about. If you can do it yourself, it is ok but is very difficult because our brain is a very powerful tool and must be handled properly.

Which "handler" do you trust? I have never trusted any other human being to "handle" my brain in all the years I have been alive because I have met too many con artists to allow that to happen.

Do u think a lady in a village busy n household chores has the understanding you have?... she NEEDS a guru. She does not have internet and access to SPN either! Any T, D and H can go to her house , promise her to double her money in one day and dupe her. ( No offence to females). So most of us need a guru.

The answer could be that women should be given permission to put aside some of these chores so that they can engage their brains, or even find out that they can handle their brains on their own, learning Gurbani, and other things too.

This self- directed guidance( like a self-directed investment account) may not be correct/ right one as no one is there to cross check my understanding.

Self directed guidance may not be correct. You are right. That is why the Shabad tells us to keep the company of the holy. In modern parlance that means go to Gurmat classes at gurdwara, take advantage of online Gurmat courses, but it also means to seek the company of virtuous people, and avoid those who are full of malice. Let's empower women to have these experiences, even if it means that the teapot may boil over while one is gone.

...
So EACH person HAS DIFFERENT level of understanding.

Everyone has a different level of understanding, however that is not to say that all understandings are correct.


I guess my feedback is too long.

As usual I am always interested to read your comments. I am not willing to equate the Satguru with Krishna. But that is OK. Let's give women permission to walk on that road paved by our Gurus. Without being tethered to gurus. We have been tethered enough. And maybe that is the answer to the thread question. Come to think of it -- The wives of the Gurus must have been encouraged by virtue of their association in sangat and in family to grow spiritually. May we make it a reality that other women have the same chance.

 

[Roger]

Narayanjot,

Forgive my thickness, but I ‘m feeling very challenged, mentally, to comprehend your posts. So, I hope you don’t mind me clarifying few of your statements and chucking in few more questions. I find learning easier through asking innumerable questions. I don't expect to get all the answers now and here but it's a start!

OK. So, let me recap what you are saying. Satguru’s (God) grace is in all human beings. Guru (Teacher,) who by the way, has realized this grace can teach his followers to realize it as well (which dwells deep within every soul). Realization of Grace enables person to perform good deeds and finally, liberation (Jeevan Mukhti – merging with Satguru). Rejection of grace, on the other hand, results in “he wanders lost in reincarnation.”

“…day of mukhti is pre-ordained, what is meant is that it is "given" by the Grace of the Guru.”
“…as I have said several times in this thread - the blueprint for realizing God's Grace, the grace of the guru - to accept or reject or ignore.”

Is God’s grace and guru’s grace the same thing, as per your statements above or, are they two different things?

“Just like any other gift a person can realize that the gift is there for the taking.”
So, a person doesn’t need a Guru, then! I May not know “sublime state of the True Guru” but what’s stopping Satguru interacting with us directly? Why can’t Satguru reach out to us?

“…the title given them, the eleven gurus, as Guru is nothing more than an acknowledgment that each one is suffused with the light of the "One." Each had discovreed his "True Identity, the Sat Nam, and tried to teach others in a selfless way.”
“All of our Guru's proclaim -- there is only one Guru, one Satguru…”

This is where I really got lost! Guru is a “title” for someone suffused with the light of the “One”. So, eleven Gurus, are suffused with “One’s” Light, making them one and the same Guru! Is this “ONE’s” Light same as “ONE’s” Grace? Is this “ONE” Satguru (God)?

Each Guru had discovered “true identity” of who/what?
Why did each of them have to discover it, since they were suffused with the same “ONE’S” light? Were Gurus suffused with the (same) light before birth, at birth, or after birth?

Many thanks
Roger

 

[ballym]

Which "handler" do you trust? I have never trusted any other human being to "handle" my brain in all the years I have been alive because I have met too many con artists to allow that to happen..

I also say the same but many people need someone to explain. how many Gurudwaras have people able to explain to the common man. That is why these mahants and deras are filling the void and are successful. I have already made this point elsewhere.

Sikhism is not about being learned. It is all about making mistakes and finding grace to stand up and start over again, a life time if needed. .

So what we must do. I am concerend about the action required.

The answer could be that women should be given permission to put aside some of these chores so that they can engage their brains, or even find out that they can handle their brains on their own, learning Gurbani, and other things too.

Too idealistic, how can we achieve it?
Even in US/ CANADA it is not really possible to avoid lady of the house being busy rearing children for a long part of life... around 20-25 years( my opinion). How can we do that in Ratter Cchatter a border area village or Baman heri near Muzaffar nagar or Jaamul in Madhya Pradesh.

but it also means to seek the company of virtuous people, and avoid those who are full of malice. Let's empower women to have these experiences, even if it means that the teapot may boil over while one is gone.

So, we can trust someone else to guide us. It is difficult but better to get guidance. Otherwise, trial and error by oneself is time consuming and tiring. We have to earn a living too. We need a short and sweet guide.let us be practical. Some may have enough money but I do not and many do not even have basic.

Everyone has a different level of understanding, however that is not to say that all understandings are correct. ..

A learned person can guide about correct understanding. He may be Gurudwara granthi, Sewadaar, Tabla player, harmonium player,a Dera Mukhi. Only thing needed is to have right kind of persons. If we produce enough persons of right kind so that the demand of population is met, we are ok and will have a better society.
Look at Christians, they produce satisfactory quality and quantity of Clergy. We should have similar method.

I am not willing to equate the Satguru with Krishna. But that is OK.

It was referred because somewhere in the thread it was stated about marriage with God. Kripalu maharaj also state the same philosophy. No promotion here.

 

[ballym]

Narayanjot,
Each Guru had discovered “true identity” of who/what? Why did each of them have to discover it, since they were suffused with the same “ONE’S” light? Were Gurus suffused with the (same) light before birth, at birth, or after birth?

They propagated the ideas of Guru Nanak. Do you agree that Guru nanak dev Ji had some substance in his ideas? i f yes, each of our Guru spread his message/ ideas and was given separate identity by tenth Guru.
In other words we may say , they were all enlightened. It does not mean a 100 watt bulb lighted up at the age of 4 year 30 days 7 hours.
It is a life long learning process even with our Gurus. Otherwise Guru Gobind Singh Ji would have known beforehand that his wounds have not healed yet.
By the way, do you have any doubts about Krishna, ganesha , Vishnu, Jesus, Muhammed. Even if no doubts etc. What are your ideas about them. I just want to have your ideas to have clear perspective in which you seek answers to your questions. Please give some details.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

ballym ji,

Guru fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but can you please shed some light on who this Kripalu Maharaj is?

Thanks.

Roger,

Guru fateh.

My initial question still stands.

It seems you have ignored the whole post and felt defensive and paranoid when your true intentions were questioned.

"I would like Roger to explain the premise and the intentions of his question in an honest and open manner which is the part and parcel of this journey called Jeevan Mukti."

You write:

I have been studying various religions and trying to understand the main “promise” offered to the followers. (In secular terms: what’s in it for me?)

Can you please give me the references from Guru Granth Sahib ji about the "promise" you have mentioned above? Give me the page numbers and the Shabads which state that.

Like followers of other religions, Sikhs also have many differing viewpoints as to what Sikhism ultimately offers. One that made more sense to me was that Sikhism offers liberation of Soul or Jeevan Mukti,

Please explain what do you understand by what you have written and is in bold?

as a result of enlightenment, which ten Gurus believed to have achieved.

Where did you get the above from? Please give references from Guru Granth Sahib about the claim.

Sikhi is all about questioning and learning but it can only happen if one is open minded to read, and understand what the other is talking about rather than questioning others as they have not responded to your intentions which only you are aware of.

So, let's try to learn from each other which requires honesty in responding rather than getting defensive when asked a question or two.

Does it mean that only you have the right to ask but not answer?

Hope to learn through open interaction.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Roger]

Hi Ballym,

"By the way, do you have any doubts about Krishna, ganesha , Vishnu, Jesus, Muhammed. Even if no doubts etc. What are your ideas about them. I just want to have your ideas to have clear perspective in which you seek answers to your questions. Please give some details. "

I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss other religons and my "ideas about them." Since this is a Sikhism forum, it'd be prudent to restrict discussion to Sikhism, lest I be accused of proselytizing! Besides, I am trying to understand Sikhism; I can go to their respective forums to discuss other religions. I am looking for answers on Sikhism from a Sikhism perspective, it is as simple as that!

Cheers
Roger

 

[Roger]

Tejwant Singh,
Can you please give me the references from Guru Granth Sahib ji about the "promise" you have mentioned above? Give me the page numbers and the Shabads which state that.
I never said it is in the Guru Granth. It is my question!
"liberation of Soul or Jeevan Mukti", Please explain what do you understand by what you have written and is in bold?
I did provide the reference of my source in my earlier post (Jivan mukta - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia) I don't understand it, hence, my question!
Quote:
as a result of enlightenment, which ten Gurus believed to have achieved

Where did you get the above from? Please give references from Guru Granth Sahib about the claim.


Once again, I never said it is from the Guru Granth. It is my interpretation, if it is incorrect, then let me know.
Thank you
Roger

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Roger,

Guru Fateh.

Once again, let me ask you the questions which you have failed to respond.


1.So what " Promise" are you talking about in your post?

2.What is your personal opinion about Jeevan Mukti?

3.Do you normally rely only on Wikipedia/Sikhipedia to form your thought process or is there a deeper research to understand things better?

4.What is your own belief system, faith or what other name you may give to it and what does it teach you and share with us what have you learnt from it?

Once again, I never said it is from the Guru Granth. It is my interpretation, if it is incorrect, then let me know.

5.How did you come to the above interpretation, based on what grounds?

Please elaborate.

Thanks and regards


Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Roger ji

No problem. I understand.

Narayanjot,

Forgive my thickness, but I ‘m feeling very challenged, mentally, to comprehend your posts. So, I hope you don’t mind me clarifying few of your statements and chucking in few more questions. I find learning easier through asking innumerable questions. I don't expect to get all the answers now and here but it's a start!


I did not see you mentally challenged. And your questions are all relevant.



OK. So, let me recap what you are saying. Satguru’s (God) grace is in all human beings. Guru (Teacher,) who by the way, has realized this grace can teach his followers to realize it as well (which dwells deep within every soul).


God's grace is in all human beings. Some gurus (with a small G) have realized this and they can teach us. However, the only guru of the Sikhs is Sri Guru Granth Sahib, whose hymns speak with the voice of the 6 previous Sikh Gurus whose banee are contained within it. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib - our one and only guru - is infused with the light, the awareness and realization, of the Grace of the Satguru. Therefore it is our teacher. I fear I have put this rather clumsily. Through our active connection with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji we set off on our journey to realize the Grace of the Satguru within ourselves.



Realization of Grace enables person to perform good deeds and finally, liberation (Jeevan Mukhti – merging with Satguru). Rejection of grace, on the other hand, results in “he wanders lost in reincarnation.”


This is pretty much what Shabad Guru is telling us.


“…day of mukhti is pre-ordained, what is meant is that it is "given" by the Grace of the Guru.”
“…as I have said several times in this thread - the blueprint for realizing God's Grace, the grace of the guru - to accept or reject or ignore.”

Is God’s grace and guru’s grace the same thing, as per your statements above or, are they two different things?


Yes. Gods' grace and the Gur Prasad, the Grace of the Satguru are the same thing. I was using the English equivalent of Gur Prasad, Guru's grace, and probably the inconsistent word usage was confusing.



“Just like any other gift a person can realize that the gift is there for the taking.”
So, a person doesn’t need a Guru, then!


A person does not need a human guru. In fact within Sikhism there is a strong motive to avoid human gurus and consider them something of a spiritual risk. However, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji provides the kind of direction that improves the journey. Why navigate without a good set of directions and good tools?


Just hours before his death proclaimed Sri Guru Granth Sahib the final guru. In 1708 Guru Gobind Singh proclaimed, "O Beloved Khalsa, let any who desire to behold me, behold the Guru Granth. Obey the Granth Sahib, for it is the visible body of the Guru. Let any who desire to meet me, diligently search its Bani."

In so saying, Guru Gobind Singh designated Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to be the embodiment of the jyote or light of the the 10 Gurus who preceded it.


I May not know “sublime state of the True Guru” but what’s stopping Satguru interacting with us directly? Why can’t Satguru reach out to us?


Your question deserves more than a quick answer. It goes to the core of how Sikhs view the relationship between humans and God. However, quickly I will say this. The Satguru does not reach out to us because He is already present. No need to reach out. It is we who have to reach within.

The idea that there is an I/Thou relationship as described by Martin Buber considers the connection between human and God as one of separation, and something that must be bridged, with God and human reaching out to each other. Sikhism views this as a dualistic view that is in error. There is no need for reaching outward, but rather there is a need to reach inward to find that grace has already been given. It is already there. This idea is found in the hymn Sohila which I already posted.


“…the title given them, the eleven gurus, as Guru is nothing more than an acknowledgment that each one is suffused with the light of the "One." Each had discovreed his "True Identity, the Sat Nam, and tried to teach others in a selfless way.”
“All of our Guru's proclaim -- there is only one Guru, one Satguru…”

This is where I really got lost! Guru is a “title” for someone suffused with the light of the “One”. So, eleven Gurus, are suffused with “One’s” Light, making them one and the same Guru! Is this “ONE’s” Light same as “ONE’s” Grace? Is this “ONE” Satguru (God)?


They were different people. They had very individual dispositions and challenges in their lives. They were suffused with the same light. Yes they were suffused with the light and grace of God.


Each Guru had discovered “true identity” of who/what?
Why did each of them have to discover it, since they were suffused with the same “ONE’S” light? Were Gurus suffused with the (same) light before birth, at birth, or after birth?


They were able to reach inward and find that they were suffused with God's Grace.

Many thanks
Roger

When did the Gurus discover their true identity, the Sat Nam? When did they find that God's Grace was within? When were they able to merge with that reality? I don't know. Only sakhis or stories of their lives are recorded, and these stories were written years after they lived. In the case of Guru Arjan Dev ji it is said that he found it very difficult to discover this sense of being suffused with grace. He had to work very hard. And then one day he "got it." His journey is recorded in the Shabad Hazare.

You can read it here.
YouTube- Shabad Hazarey - Line By Line Translation

However, there is a beautiful pauree (set of 4-6 lines of verse) in which Guru Arjan Dev describes, in metaphor, how he gave up seeking for liberation, he was so exhausted, and threw himself exhausted at the feet of God. Only then he met God and his mind was "cooled and soothed." Here it is.

ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ੫ ॥
dhaevagandhhaaree 5 ||
Dayv-Gandhaaree, Fifth Mehl:


ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਬਚਨ ਤੁਹਾਰੇ ॥
anmrithaa pria bachan thuhaarae ||
O Beloved, Your Words are Ambrosial Nectar.


ਅਤਿ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਮਨਮੋਹਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਭਹੂ ਮਧਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ath sundhar manamohan piaarae sabhehoo madhh niraarae ||1|| rehaao ||
O supremely beautiful Enticer, O Beloved, You are among all, and yet distinct from all. ||1||Pause||


ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
raaj n chaaho mukath n chaaho man preeth charan kamalaarae ||
I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.


ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਿਧ ਮੁਨਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਮੋਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਹੀ ਦਰਸਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
breham mehaes sidhh mun eindhraa mohi thaakur hee dharasaarae ||1||
Brahma, Shiva, the Siddhas, the silent sages and Indra - I seek only the Blessed Vision of my Lord and Master's Darshan. ||1||


ਦੀਨੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਆਇਓ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸਰਨਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੰਤ ਹਾਰੇ ॥
dheen dhuaarai aaeiou thaakur saran pariou santh haarae ||
I have come, helpless, to Your Door, O Lord Master; I am exhausted, I seek the Sanctuary of the Saints.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲੇ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲ ਬਿਗਸਾਰੇ ॥੨॥੩॥੨੯॥
kahu naanak prabh milae manohar man seethal bigasaarae ||2||3||29||
Says Nanak, I have met my Enticing Lord God; my mind is cooled and soothed - it blossoms forth in joy. ||2||3||29||

 

[Tejwant Singh]

ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
raaj n chaaho mukath n chaaho man preeth charan kamalaarae ||
I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.

This is the gist of the Sikh journey.

I do not seek power but want to empower others. I do not seek eternity- mukti- salvation.

I only seek connection (lotus feet) with The Source, so I can learn how to breed goodness within. My freedom- liberation lies solely in this.

 

[Roger]

Narayanjot,

Thanks for the reply! Much appreciated.

Regards
Roger

 

[JimRinX]

Narayanjot, Roger, and Tejwant jios
Much to say! Firstly; I was not implying the you, Narayanjot ji, were getting 'heated'; I actually picked that one up from Tejwant ji, as I know there's a sore side to many people of India/Punjab, regarding rich westerners 'stealing your women', and I thought there might have been a hint of percieved disrespect in Roger jis inquery.
Secondly; Tejwant ji, I appreciate your statements regarding this world and it's laws - as I've had some Bad People break many, many of them (My Rights as a Supervisor to not have people I fired arainge for me to meet FBI agents sisters, who steal from me, then set about 'messing up my life'; my Right to apply for my Disability Pension, without having the former mess it up - while telling everyone I'm a 'thief' and an 'addict', because SHE stole from ME, and they all plotted my demise together; get the Idea? That three people were killed, by the Ku Klux Klan - who the FBI is Tasked with protecting ALL OF US from - because of all of the above......PHEW! If I broke some rules - or even some laws - would that be 'bad'?) in order to get back at me for a number of actions that were all 'good', but made 'bad people' unhappy.
I come to SPN because I find Kindered Spirits here - people I can talk to, people whose Rights, along with my own, I've been fighting for for many, many years; as a large part of the justification that my adversaries have employed to gain support for their actions against me, and against civil society in general, has been based on the fact that I've 'Refused Jesus', that I, "Took some kind of DRUG, had a HALUCINATION, and (again) LEFT JESUS' - as I'm an ex-Catholic Buddhist, and the Ku Klux Klan hates Catholics, so they had a reall 'good time' whipping up these kinds to mess with me at the same time that they were!
Forgive me my own Sins, Oh World, and I will have Justice For Us All Yet!
You See; I'm right when I say that it's both a 'Blessing AND a Curse' to have garnered some insight into the True Nature of it all.
Thirdly: I do not mean to mock - let along question - the Shabad Guru; I would not be, as you say Narayanjot ji, "interested" in Sikhism, if it were not a Good Book filled Real Wisdom that will show it's readers the True Path.
I just don't like overly Dogmatic Practices - as, most of the time, this leads to tyranny in 'The Name of God' - and, also, as I've said before; if YOU had had the kind of Experience that you cab read abouy MY having had in my Introducing Myself posting - if YOU had had a WHITE STREAK appear in your hair, after a deeply meaningful TM - would YOU hold the WORDS written in a Book; be it the Shabad Guru, the Bible, the Koran, or the Avesta; or would you hold what you believe Waheguru ji revealed to you IN PERSON (so to speak) more sacred?
Think about it! I've been pondering this for almost 20 years!:{;o:
Best Regards, JimRinX!

 

[spnadmin]

Narayanjot, Roger, and Tejwant jios
Much to say! Firstly; I was not implying the you, Narayanjot ji, were getting 'heated'; I actually picked that one up from Tejwant ji, as I know there's a sore side to many people of India/Punjab, regarding rich westerners 'stealing your women', and I thought there might have been a hint of percieved disrespect in Roger jis inquery.
Secondly; Tejwant ji, I appreciate your statements regarding this world and it's laws - as I've had some Bad People break many, many of them (My Rights as a Supervisor to not have people I fired arainge for me to meet FBI agents sisters, who steal from me, then set about 'messing up my life'; my Right to apply for my Disability Pension, without having the former mess it up - while telling everyone I'm a 'thief' and an 'addict', because SHE stole from ME, and they all plotted my demise together; get the Idea? That three people were killed, by the Ku Klux Klan - who the FBI is Tasked with protecting ALL OF US from - because of all of the above......PHEW! If I broke some rules - or even some laws - would that be 'bad'?) in order to get back at me for a number of actions that were all 'good', but made 'bad people' unhappy.
I come to SPN because I find Kindered Spirits here - people I can talk to, people whose Rights, along with my own, I've been fighting for for many, many years; as a large part of the justification that my adversaries have employed to gain support for their actions against me, and against civil society in general, has been based on the fact that I've 'Refused Jesus', that I, "Took some kind of DRUG, had a HALUCINATION, and (again) LEFT JESUS' - as I'm an ex-Catholic Buddhist, and the Ku Klux Klan hates Catholics, so they had a reall 'good time' whipping up these kinds to mess with me at the same time that they were!
Forgive me my own Sins, Oh World, and I will have Justice For Us All Yet!
You See; I'm right when I say that it's both a 'Blessing AND a Curse' to have garnered some insight into the True Nature of it all.
Thirdly: I do not mean to mock - let along question - the Shabad Guru; I would not be, as you say Narayanjot ji, "interested" in Sikhism, if it were not a Good Book filled Real Wisdom that will show it's readers the True Path.
I just don't like overly Dogmatic Practices - as, most of the time, this leads to tyranny in 'The Name of God' - and, also, as I've said before; if YOU had had the kind of Experience that you cab read abouy MY having had in my Introducing Myself posting - if YOU had had a WHITE STREAK appear in your hair, after a deeply meaningful TM - would YOU hold the WORDS written in a Book; be it the Shabad Guru, the Bible, the Koran, or the Avesta; or would you hold what you believe Waheguru ji revealed to you IN PERSON (so to speak) more sacred?
Think about it! I've been pondering this for almost 20 years!:{;o:
Best Regards, JimRinX!

JimRinX ji

Thanks for your clarification. I myself felt there was some disrespect initially, however, Roger ji has clarified the reasons for and nature of his need for information.

Probably the lingering thought I have is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not represent "dogma" as scriptures like The Book of Leviticus, the Manu Smriti, or others seem to do. There are virtually no orders from above, but rather descriptions of how to find the path to the Goal. And the goal is not to receive a heavenly reward or avoid the pain of hell. The goal is to find bliss by realizing one's True Identity with the grace of the Guru. A very tender scripture that holds that we are fundamentally good, but that we can be led astray. And that is the tragedy for those who have persecuted you. They have not heard this message -- or perhaps they did and decided to ignore it.

 

[Randip Singh]

or killed in a religious violence -
Thanks
Roger

• Was what the Guru's stood up for religion or were they standing up for the low castes and the down trodden man?
• Was 1984 really about religion or about politics?

I think you need to read some history.

 

[Randip Singh]

I think Roger jis question is a valid one; how could a Guru ever be a true 'soul mate' witha Wife who had not also attained Mukta?

Why would it matter?

 

[Randip Singh]

This is the gist of the Sikh journey.

I do not seek power but want to empower others. I do not seek eternity- mukti- salvation.

I only seek connection (lotus feet) with The Source, so I can learn how to breed goodness within. My freedom- liberation lies solely in this.

This is why I was puzzled with the question.

A Sikh does not crave Mukhti, or higher spiritual states. He just longs to be intune (one with) God. Not be a slave to the 5 thieves and let patience, kindness etc be his/her virtues.

 

[JimRinX]

Randip ji
Yes, you are quite right; a Sikh, or any other believer/adherent to the concepts ('Laws'?) of Dharma and Karma, is; if they are true to themselves, and therefore to others; always going to be a self-less person, concerned more with the wellbeing of others, than that of themselves; as WE know that if everyone practices these beliefs with equal fervor, no one will want for anything - all will know peace and harmoniousness.
I was in no way implying that a Sikh - Gurus Wife, or humble cobbler - would 'seek' Mukhti; that's why I appologized for being so immodest as to even mention the idea that I might have been fortunate (and cursed!) enough to have done so (I only say what I do to try and help others; not to 'brag', as spometimes they ask, you know); I just think that a Guru would have a Happier and more fulfilling marriage, if his Wife had achieved that level of enlightenment!
See? I was just being compassionate! I wouldn't want to see an unhappily married Guru, after all!
Narayanjot ji
I know what you're saying! That's because I've not only been reading what you quote me, but also because I read 'An Introduction to Sikhism', and was very, very impressed by the Beauty of it all.
It's odd, you know; I was just waiting in line to eat at a kind of Baptist Gurdwara, and there was a guy SHOUTING 'Fire and Brimstone' - then he began to eulogize about how those who don't want to tick off Jesus NEVER SHOUT AT ANYONE!
On the other hand, I know a Mennonite Pastor who is just the opposite; and he likes to make jokes about people like the 'shouter', and how they've strayed from the path.
I told him that theres 'reincarnation' in John 3:1-16; for though most Christians only focus on the last bit - the "He whosoever believeth in Me, will (go to Heaven) - the previous bits certainly sound like an explaination of Birth, in Water (repeatedly, even), followed - if you've achieved an ambiguous sounding goal (WE know what THAT is) - by 'Birth, in Spirit'.
I may 'convert' (their biggest fear!) them yet!
Yes, yes, WE do have a point; those of us whose beliefs are derived from the Dharma!