The Mother Of Waahiguroo?

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Arvind Jee!

Please write the Guru's Sabad correctly. We may discuss this wonderful Hymn then.

Quote "These sound like perfect examples of brainwashing to me."
This is right. Preachers have tried their best to brainwash the simple Folks.

Balbir Singh

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Dear all,

The following composition is by the Bhatts. In the following they have in ecstasy expressed their love for the Guru.


kvl nYn mDur bYn koit sYn sMg soB khq mw jsod ijsih dhI Bwqu Kwih jIau ]kaval nain madhhur bain kott sain sang sobh kehath maa jasodh jisehi dhehee bhaath khaahi jeeo ||

Your lotus-eyes, sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. You are the one (implying that for them (for the bhatts) your are the Krishna incarnate) to whom Mother Yashoda asks to eat the sweet rice.


Balbir ji , Why are your misleading and/or winding people up.

For all, please read the history of the Bhatts to understand this topic better.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

 

[Arvind]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Arvind Jee!

Please write the Guru's Sabad correctly. We may discuss this wonderful Hymn then.

Quote "These sound like perfect examples of brainwashing to me."
This is right. Preachers have tried their best to brainwash the simple Folks.

Balbir Singh

Dear Sir,

I couldnt find the Shabad in gurmukhi font so couldnt paste it here. If you or anyone has the shabad, then please paste it here. Pls be kind enough by telling what was wrong with the shabad, I am willing to correct myself regarding that.

I may sound rude or insulting to almost everyone here, but still I feel a strong urge to mention this here. Balbir ji, your talks sound very innocent, but they dont lead to any meaningful discussion, and lead to more and more confusion. Now see, how you had manipulated my sentence regarding brainwashing. I meant brainwashing by persons like you, sir... who create silly questions like
Does God have hands, Does He have mother etc. I mean what is up with these questions?

I have seen your similar questions on sikhnet.com where the learned moderators there have simply locked your threads with warning.

ok I am done with my venting...

Sincerely, Arvind.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here it is Arvind

In Dasam Granth Page732 Line 5

mY n gnySih ipRQm mnwaUN ] ikSn ibSn kbhUM nh iDAwaUN ]kwn suny pihcwn n iqn soN ] ilv lwgI morI pg ien soN ]434]
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Ekmusafir_ajnabi Jee!

Quote "You are the one (implying that for them (for the bhatts) your are the Krishna incarnate) to whom Mother Yashoda asks to eat the sweet rice."
Thanks for publishing the result of your research.

**************

Quote from Arvind Jee "Balbir ji, your talks sound very innocent, but they dont lead to any meaningful discussion, and lead to more and more confusion."
I know someone. He is a teacher and carries a stick with him. His mind has convinced him that his God is accompanying him. In my view, so is the case with many so-called religious people.
I feel your preachers are more confused than innocent listeners.

Quote "I meant brainwashing by persons like you, sir... who create silly questions like
Does God have hands, Does He have mother etc. I mean what is up with these questions?"
May I ask your opinion about the reverend Gurus who sang so much about God's Hands and asked the Mother (Maa-ee) questions? Do some people know why their preachers never speak about Maa-ee the Gurus have often mentioned?

Quote "I have seen your similar questions on sikhnet.com where the learned moderators there have simply locked your threads with warning. "
He may be an old companion from last lives. In this life he is a business friend (Vanjaara Mitar). He wants to attract all types of customers for his business. His efforts are to spread a well-knotted net for fishing. Fakirs and Business people often go to the same school in childhood. I like him still.


Balbir Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Respected Baldir ji

It is easy to see why some think that we are making chutney here. Or even that you are winding people up. Your reference to "mother" turned out to be a reference to Yashoda found almost at the end of the 1430 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib dev ji. That was the garam masala en saute.

So another ingredient -- Maaee. We are now up to the minced onions. Maaee is actually used very frequently. In all fairness, no one is confused -- perplexed would be a better way to describe my own reaction to all of this.:hmm: As Arvind noted much earlier -- God is sabhungN -- so maaee would not logically point to a mother for Waheguru.

If you are making a claim for a Hindu interpretation of Sikh scriptures, then why not just say so outright? All this mystery and detective work has some people thinking you are kidding around and they become vexed.

Ekmusafir ji, thanks for your insight into the bhatts, making it all the more clear that Yashoda is not depicted here as the mother of Waheguru. I have corrected my earlier comments accordingly with an editor's note.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Arvind Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful reference from Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. As usual the translation provided is not correct. It is surprising that institutions have awarded more than thirty Ph.D. degrees on Dasam Granth and many are in progress. I feel alone the intellectual level of a translator or a preacher cannot understand the spirituality of the Guru's developed conscious mind.

In Dasam Granth Page732 Line 5
ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥

Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||.
The translation provided is this. I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434.

'Manaaoon' is not adoring. 'Manaoon' is persuading. And 'Liv laagimoripag in son' means, 'my consciousness is absorbed in ther feet'.
I do not know why the translator needed to translate the Guru's words 'in saoN' at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).
Can someone imagine how consciousness gets absorbed in them, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal whom ear listen but have no forms to recognize?
Please ponder. These Vaaks from Sri Gurdev are from His Hymn "Ath Devee Joo Kee Ustat KathnaN." However, the translator is trying to raise the impression that Gurdev is rejecting Ustat of Devee, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal.

I may start a new topic on this soon. This may turn out to be a great Satsang.


Balbir Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Balbir ji

As usual we are vectoring toward personal constructions of reality -- how could it be that there is one and only one person who has the one and only correct translation of a shabad under discussion -- and it is never the person whose translations are used more than any other.

Let us see what Ekmusafir has to say. Not because he is infallible but because he has a knack for coming up with a way to show how a few word changes can place the entire translation of a phrase into the larger context of a verse in a very effective way.

Would you explain what you mean by this statement? Can someone imagine how consciousness gets absorbed in them, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal whom ear listen but have no forms to recognize? Somehow I did not understand from the shabad that Ganesha et al. were the ones who would hear or not hear, listen or not listen. Did you change things around? So how did you come up with your perspective on this?

And why would the shabad express anything other than a rejection of the Ustat devee as you put it of Ganesha and companions? This is why some of us think you are trying to erase history. Or just winding us up as Arvind ji so lucidly put it.

Sorry, but I am feeling very refreshed and am full of questions.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<< Also, no Sikh could convince me why they have imaginary paintings of their Gurus they treat as Gods.>>

balbir singh ji ( if this is your real name)


a clarification for you...
Sikhs do not consider the Gurus as God

<<Quote "i am sure that sikhs should start cutting their head and should walk on path of sikhis with
head in their hands"
Please explain it. Which word from the referred Vaak is to understand 'cutting'?
>>>

brother

you certainly like playing with the words..

can you please show me how you can place your head on your palm and walk straight?

must be amazingly flexible head or Guru ji meant he wanted to see people with their palms on their head side..


and why did you side step the wordings from Bible?

i did not see any word mincing by St. Matthew about taking out the eyes.

------------

conclusion from my above post,

Balbir singh ji, these friends have been very generous to discuss with you, i am just exposing your word play.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

have put the new translation with your interpretation....


ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥

Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||.


I do not persuade Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at their feet 434.


this translation doesnot make sense...does it?


Balbir singh ji

good that you are doing the nitpicking, but even replacing persuading for believing makes same sense to me.

Amd why would anyone not believe in any form and still have his/her consciouness at their feet...beats me...can you explain?

 

[spnadmin]

amarsanghera ji

Thanks for going through this analysis and clearing out the cob-webs.

Baldir ji asked: Can someone imagine how consciousness gets absorbed in them, Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal whom ear listen but have no forms to recognize?

Originally we were thinking about Ganesha, Krishna and Vishnu -- now we have 4 avatars instead of the original 3. How did you do the arithmetic?

I was completely mystified by the part about the "feet" but didn't say anything about it. "my consciousness is absorbed at their feet" How is consciousness absorbed at a foot or feet of Ganesha, Kishan, Bishan and Mahaakaal? Whose foot or feet? There are 4 names mentioned. Does this happen one avatar at a time, or all 4 at once? I can understand how they would not have forms, but not how they would not be recognized. Waheguru is also formless, but Waheguru can be recognized. The key word is recognize. How do you figure out where to direct your consciousness if you can't recognize God?

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

Quote "Sikhs do not consider the Gurus as God"
I hope they do not bow just in front of a piece of paper.

Quote "brother . . .you certainly like playing with the words . . .can you please show me how you can place your head on your palm and walk straight? . . .must be amazingly flexible head or Guru ji meant he wanted to see people with their palms on their head side . . .and why did you side step the wordings from Bible? . . .i did not see any word mincing by St. Matthew about taking out the eyes."

Brother and father are found in a church. Sorry, I do not have time to read the translated Bible to answer a Christian's question.

All who have realized the force and overflow of love in life have described the same. Their hands reach on the head with helplessness in the ego-less state.
The wonderful words from the humble Guru are "Sir dhar talee galee meree aao." On head keep the palm and come to my way.
The revered Guru Naanak Dev Jee never suggested anybody to cut his head. Nor any Guru ever cut His God gifted head.

Please remain with the topic.


Balbir Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Baldir ji

I finally get it, and actually turned my computer back on, once it all fell together. Just like a detective story. It was the number of avatars changing from 3 to 4, and also the change in their names that gave you away.

Originally you opened a new direction in the thread by turning our attention to Ganesha, Krishna, Vishnu. Supreme Kal was in the picture; however you objected to the place of Supreme Kal in the translation-- who btw was the only recipient of devotion. "My consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal."

Then the avatars changed to Ganesha, Kishan, Bishaan and Mahaakaal. So Supreme Kal had to take his place with the other 3. Very clever of you to introduce this distraction.

You really don't like the idea that there should be a Supreme Kal or anything like an Ik Ong Kar, Sat Naam, Kartar Purakh, Nirbhau, Nirvair, Akal Muraath-- do you?

Introduce a new topic, and it will not be the sat sang you think it will be. All you had to do was start these discussions about God's hands and relatives in the Interfaith Discussions part of the forum.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Respected aad ji,

The following is my humble opinion.

Ganesh is called Siddhi Datta. The diety/god who is blessed with miraculous powers.
He is this god of knowledge and the remover of obstacles and is the older son of Lord Shiva. Lord Ganesha is also called Vinayak ( knowledgeable ) or Vighneshwer (god to remove obstacles). He is worshipped, or at least remembered, in the beginning of any auspicious performance for blessings and auspiciousness. He represents tremendous wisdom, intellegence, and presence of mind.

Adore = Worship = To worship God or a spirit
Manaaoon = to persuade someone, to adore someone (to worship), to honour someone ( like we honour our elders in weddings – “Manottiaan”), to recognise someone, to acknowledge someone.
Pagg = Feet, Path, Direction


Guru ji is indeed rejecting the authority of Sri Ganesh to be his first protocall.


I will not adore/recognise/acknowledge Ganesh as the first protocall. Krishna and Vishnu, I will never mediatate on them. I have only heard of them, but I am not acquainted with them. This is how my consciousness is absorbed on this path. (i.e. this is the personal opinion of Guru ji).434.

If we take the meaning of Pagg as feet then it will indeed look/sound like Guru ji is again bowing to them. But it is. Balbir ji has a predetermined path and it looks like that slowly he is trying to lure people into his way of thinking. He is the type of “Fakir” as he wants us to accept that are gradually diluting the true message.

In the second verse Guru ji say

The Supreme Kal (God) is my Protector. O Supreme Loh, I am Thy slave. Protect me, as Thy own. Do me the honour of holding my arm.435.

This is what Guru ji believes in.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

 

[Arvind]

Thanks aad0002 and amarsanghera ji for posting the shabad, and for correction. Much appreciated!

Regards.

 

[spnadmin]

Ekmusafir, Arvind, Begum ji, respected forum members,

So we can see how things have been completely distorted. It just took a day or two to find which pieces and how they fit together. To show what he was up to. A Game of Clue. Thanks to all the detectives on the squad for helping this simple-minded one solve the riddle before her very eyes -- actually realize for herself that we were working on a riddle.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Quote "Sikhs do not consider the Gurus as God"
I hope they do not bow just in front of a piece of paper.>>

so true

we bow before the Guru and not God

God is onmipotent and its within ourselves that we "bow" ourselves or subject ourselves to God's will


Quote<<Quote "brother . . .you certainly like playing with the words . . .can you please show me how you can place your head on your palm and walk straight? . . .must be amazingly flexible head or Guru ji meant he wanted to see people with their palms on their head side . . .and why did you side step the wordings from Bible? . . .i did not see any word mincing by St. Matthew about taking out the eyes."

Brother and father are found in a church. Sorry, I do not have time to read the translated Bible to answer a Christian's question.>>

it was not a "translated" christian question, it was a statement...

btw the line is written in English.

it was my mistake to call you Brother....

and what makes you think that word Brother is not used in SGGS ?



<<All who have realized the force and overflow of love in life have described the same. Their hands reach on the head with helplessness in the ego-less state.
The wonderful words from the humble Guru are "Sir dhar talee galee meree aao." On head keep the palm and come to my way.
The revered Guru Naanak Dev Jee never suggested anybody to cut his head. Nor any Guru ever cut His God gifted head.>>>

thanks for sggesting that words in SGGS cannot be taken literally. you just defeated your own logic

have a good night

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Amarsanghera Jee!

Quote "so true . . . we bow before the Guru and not God"
Please watch. Some ignorant bow in front of their Guru while their Guru is bowing before God.

Balbir Singh

 

[International Akaali]

Balbir Singh,

I have just read this whole thread where the topic has changed from mother to something else.... What is your mission here on this forum? It seems as though you something else to say but you aren't comming out with it. Jus my thoughts on the topic.... Now dont twist what i wrote right now into something smart you always seem to pull out or something that makes no sense.


You make comments which make the whole thread and forum go in circles and then jus do whatever mission you have been on. I dont know what that mission is? Frankly i dont have a clue of where your stance is or whether or not you are a sikh or not. OH WAIT!!!!! NOW DONT ASK ME WHAT A SIKH IS? or please i beg of you dont ask me anything you will jus make me go crazy with all the diffrent thoughts you have.

If you know anything about the reason for bowing to shri guru granth sahib ji (which you will ask me to clarify) and then twist those words around make a another one of your "chutney" topics so id rather just leave you alone and let your mind jus decompose jus thinking about all these chutney topics in your head until you loose your mind

* Chutney and Balbir singh go hand in hand

 

[Dimitri]

who was the mother of Waheguru's mother.

 

[Astroboy]

Radhasoami, Beas Secret History, radhasoami, shabd

Radha Soami and Balbir Singh ? Cannot be.