The Sad Reality Of Casteism

[Harkiran Kaur]

This article shows the sad reality, alive and kicking today, of casteism. It's brutal, inhumane, and hard to watch. But we have to. The only way to stop it is to realize what the idea of superiority / inferiority causes. It's insidious. The only way to combat it, is realize what the end result is of this ideology that holds some above others simply because of what body someone is born into.

I won't link the actual video on here but here is the link to one such story:

Shocking : Dalit Women Paraded naked by Upper Caste Men and women - Punjab Update

Where is the humanity???

This is why I am so against any idea of superiority of one over another. Caste, race, gender etc. Nobody is higher than another in Waheguru's eyes. A lot of talk lately about Brahmin superiority and whether Sikhi agrees with it or not. The above link will give you the sad reality of what such thinking causes. Then ask yourself if this belief system is anything our Gurus agreed with.

There are even worse ones I have seen recently. Like a low caste girl who's Father had been in some disagreement with a higher caste man. There were about 20 higher caste boys who dragged her out of the house, kicked her mercilessly, doused her in kerosene, lit her on fire and watched her burn to death while they videoed it on their mobiles.

How are ANY humans capable of such hatred and evil?? When you are brought up thinking lower caste deserve what they get and that you are 'entitled' then this is the result.

I just wanted to rant because, these things seem to be common even today in India. Why aren't they being talked about and why isn't there more being done to stop it??

 

[Pathfinder]

How are ANY humans capable of such hatred and evil??

A line from one of my dark poetry/ song is all that comes to my mind..

...None is darker than us mortals, thou should have known by now…..

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

This article shows the sad reality, alive and kicking today, of casteism. It's brutal, inhumane, and hard to watch. But we have to. The only way to stop it is to realize what the idea of superiority / inferiority causes. It's insidious. The only way to combat it, is realize what the end result is of this ideology that holds some above others simply because of what body someone is born into.

I won't link the actual video on here but here is the link to one such story:

Shocking : Dalit Women Paraded naked by Upper Caste Men and women - Punjab Update

Where is the humanity???

This is why I am so against any idea of superiority of one over another. Caste, race, gender etc. Nobody is higher than another in Waheguru's eyes. A lot of talk lately about Brahmin superiority and whether Sikhi agrees with it or not. The above link will give you the sad reality of what such thinking causes. Then ask yourself if this belief system is anything our Gurus agreed with.

There are even worse ones I have seen recently. Like a low caste girl who's Father had been in some disagreement with a higher caste man. There were about 20 higher caste boys who dragged her out of the house, kicked her mercilessly, doused her in kerosene, lit her on fire and watched her burn to death while they videoed it on their mobiles.

How are ANY humans capable of such hatred and evil?? When you are brought up thinking lower caste deserve what they get and that you are 'entitled' then this is the result.

I just wanted to rant because, these things seem to be common even today in India. Why aren't they being talked about and why isn't there more being done to stop it??

These isolated events of castism still existing are condemn able and highest possible punishment for these criminals is recommended. However we find a lot of change in castism. Just in nineteen century beginning the lower caste people were treated just like slaves and I am privy to seeing such atrocities. It has taken lot of time to vanish. We hope it vanishes the earliest.

 

[RD1]

We human beings cannot seem to organize ourselves without a hierarchy. It seems everywhere there is a privileged class, and an inferior class.

The only supreme essence above all is Waheguru.

It is absolutely disgusting how much cruelty human beings can inflict on others, how much we can completely dehumanize and violate another. We all have a capability for good, and evil, and everything in between, and we have to choose what we do.

When one group is constantly told that they are better, and another group is constantly told they are filth, violence will erupt. We live in a society of sheep. We live in a world where the 5 thieves dominate.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

It is not only difficult but almost impossible to change the mental paradigm of people who consider themselves from higher castes. Sadly they claim it is their god given right. One wonders what kind of god would do that!

Casteism is even worse than Apartheid.

 

[Original]

Evening everyone....

In much of Asia and parts of Africa, caste is the basis for the definition and exclusion of distinct population groups by reason of their descent. Over 250 million people continue to suffer the horrific violations of their human rights as a result of this primitive concept. This may be better explained by general principles of human moral cognition on the basis that human evolution was a linear progression from small brained tree climbers to bipedal big brained modern humans. What does that tell us ? That once upon a time we were the Flintstones and now, in the space of a few thousand years we've transformed the entire planet beyond recognition and will one day colonise our solar system with advanced technological civilisations.

What was, is not and what is, will not be - change is imminent. Slowly but surely Gurus' way will come to dominate, pre-requisite of which is "understanding"; says Nanak, "sikhi sikhia gur vichar" [p465 SGGSJ], further compounded by Spinoza, '..don't laugh at human actions, don't weep at them, don't hate them, but rather, try and understand them'.

Caste is on its way out and like all things come to pass, so will caste !

Good news is that we've just about managed to legislate caste based discrimination a breach within the Equality Act 2010 [UK].

Goodnight

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Original ji,
Guru Fateh

Evening everyone....

In much of Asia and parts of Africa, caste is the basis for the definition and exclusion of distinct population groups by reason of their descent. Over 250 million people continue to suffer the horrific violations of their human rights as a result of this primitive concept. This may be better explained by general principles of human moral cognition on the basis that human evolution was a linear progression from small brained tree climbers to bipedal big brained modern humans. What does that tell us ? That once upon a time we were the Flintstones and now, in the space of a few thousand years we've transformed the entire planet beyond recognition and will one day colonise our solar system with advanced technological civilisations.

You are mixing apples with mangoes again. Yes, human rights are violated with the help of caste system but this is a unique phenomena only in Hinduism. In Hinduism, it is their god and goddesses that create these 'human rights' divisions unlike in other religions the world over. This has nothing to do with small brain but small mind. In other words, it is not about the hardware but the software whose code is written by Hindu gods/goddesses.

Our human progress in other fields will continue not by any divine prophecy but by human curiousity to learn,adapt and adjust.

What was, is not and what is, will not be - change is imminent. Slowly but surely Gurus' way will come to dominate, pre-requisite of which is "understanding"; says Nanak, "sikhi sikhia gur vichar" [p465 SGGSJ], further compounded by Spinoza, '..don't laugh at human actions, don't weep at them, don't hate them, but rather, try and understand them'.

Please allow me to take your last sentence where you quoted Spinoza first, but before I do that, please give us the whole quote rather than of what you fancy for your discussion. Allow me to elaborate it. '..don't laugh at human actions..' which implies that Baruch(Hebrew) Spinoza, Benedito de Espinosa (Portuguese), he was born in a Portuguese Jewish colony in Amsterdam, is telling others, in this case us, not to laugh at human actions as per your quote, which is false.

The whole quote will clarify what Spinoza said,
"I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, nor to hate them, but to understand them". – Baruch Spinoza

Here, you would notice that Spinoza is talking about himself. He is not lecturing anyone else as you implied through your incorrect quote of his. One should not distort the quotes by others for one's personal 'advantage' for the sake of argument rather than having a discussion/interaction where all can learn. You have done the same with Kant in the past.

Having said that, even the right quote is irrelevant to the discussion of casteism because as mentioned above, caste is between the Hindus and their deities. It has nothing to do with, "sikhi sikhia gur vichar" [p465 SGGSJ], which is a personal endeavour.

Coming back to "sikhi sikhia gur vichar" [p465 SGGSJ], this is exactly what Guru sahib urges us sans belief/faith, the opposite of what you advocate vehemently about Sikhi in your posts. Vichar does not need either belief or faith, just understanding and practicing of Guru Shabad.

What is Guru Vichar?

It is to practice the lessons learned from Piri 'Guru Vichar' in our life of Miri- the truthful living. This is the only way a Sikh becomes a Peace Warrior.

Guru Vichar is:
1. Simran through deeds
2. Naam Japnah through deeds.

What Guru Vichar is not:

1. Parroting ritualistically 'endlessly'.
2, Blind faith/belief

Caste is on its way out and like all things come to pass, so will caste !

Can you give us some concrete examples with references for your claim above?

Good news is that we've just about managed to legislate caste based discrimination a breach within the Equality Act 2010

This is good news! When was this 'caste based discrimination' added to Equality Act 2010?
Since its addition, have the government and/or human rights advocates like yourself collected any raw data about its effect?

How many high caste Hindus have married the low caste Hindus and vice versa in the UK since this addition of the clause in the bill? Please share your data with us.

Thanks.

 

[Original]

Respected Tejwant Singh Ji - good evening,

You are mixing apples with mangoes again.

..makes good {censored}tail !

Yes, human rights are violated with the help of caste system but this is a unique phenomena only in Hinduism.

..not quite Sir ! try the Osu in Nigera and Burakumin in Japan ! Places like Kenya and some parts of North Africa are not immune either.

This has nothing to do with small brain but small mind

..it has everything to do with the small brain, it is the small brain that generates the mind !

In other words, it is not about the hardware but the software whose code is written by Hindu gods/goddesses.

..that'll be your perception Sir !

Our human progress in other fields will continue not by any divine prophecy but by human curiousity to learn,adapt and adjust.

..nothing happens without Akal Purakh's [AP] Hukam, AP is divine in Sikhism !

Please allow me to take your last sentence where you quoted Spinoza first, but before I do that, please give us the whole quote rather than of what you fancy for your discussion. Allow me to elaborate it. '..don't laugh at human actions..' which implies that Baruch(Hebrew) Spinoza, Benedito de Espinosa (Portuguese), he was born in a Portuguese Jewish colony in Amsterdam, is telling others, in this case us, not to laugh at human actions as per your quote, which is false.

..this'd be the persuasive element in creative writing, connecting ideas if you like, to tease thinking !

The whole quote will clarify what Spinoza said,
"I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, nor to hate them, but to understand them". – Baruch Spinoza

correct..well done !

Here, you would notice that Spinoza is talking about himself. He is not lecturing anyone else as you implied through your incorrect quote of his. One should not distort the quotes by others for one's personal 'advantage' for the sake of argument rather than having a discussion/interaction where all can learn. You have done the same with Kant in the past.

..I've cited an authority to hammer home a message [note, not quote per se] that humankind in its infancy did some horrible things, such as the caste system in social stratification ! And that, understanding thereof, not hatred will liberate the spirit from the shackles of mental dispositions.

It has nothing to do with, "sikhi sikhia gur vichar" [p465 SGGSJ],

...it has everything to do with "sikhi sikhia gur vichar", meaning, unlike other faiths [Islam, Christianity], Sikhism don't believe that you have to be a Sikh to find favour in God's eyes. Whether you're a Hindu or an Alien doesn't matter, what does matter is the life philosophy of the "gurus" way which liberates the spirit through the three pillars of the disciplined life, namely, KR, VS and Nam Jap.

Vichar does not need either belief or faith,

...I'll go along with that ! empty heads have long tongues [Chinese proverb].

Can you give us some concrete examples with references for your claim above?

..certainly ! I'm from the jat clan, never taught my kids anything of the sort, they are casteless therefore.

This is good news! When was this 'caste based discrimination' added to Equality Act 2010?
Since its addition, have the government and/or human rights advocates like yourself collected any raw data about its effect?

How many high caste Hindus have married the low caste Hindus and vice versa in the UK since this addition of the clause in the bill? Please share your data with us.

..I'm sorry, you'd have to read up on it, I'm not up-to-date with recent case law ! I believe it is still going through the legislative process; suffice to add, employment tribunals have started entertaining cases based on caste discrimination. And, hence the insertion "good news".

Good night Sir !

 

[Seeker2013]

In Short : Caste system happens because of ignorance.

Exposition ::

What is the root of all this ? The root is "ignorance" . Man commits all sin , humanity commits all crimes and discrimination, be it in the name of caste, sexuality, gender , etc.. in the name of ignorance , the ignorance of the self, the ignorance of the world .

The thing is we're all soul.
Everyone wishes to grow , in terms of their finances, their family , their overall personalities.
It's the nature of soul to grow , to be in abundance .
No one says that may I decrease in status . Everyone wishes good for himself.

They say in indian philosophy that atma (soul) and brahm(god) is one and the same.
"Brahm" comes from sanskrit root "brh" which means "to grow" . "Vaadha" (punjabi: growth) and "badhta" (hindi : that which is growing) also come from this same root word -brh.

"To grow" , "To be in abundance" , and not just to grow , not just to be in abundance , but man is constantly trying to be immortal . Man wants to be highest . Every person wishes to become the greatest .

A mustard seed despite being so minuscule , attempts and grows into a tall mustard plant , full of leaves , flowers , full of lush greenery and beauty and aroma ; this despite the mustard plant being millions of times larger than the seed it came out of !
It was the desire of the seed to "grow" , to "brhd" that resulted in the crop !

We seek growth , we seek immortality ,
When we cannot make the body immortal, we seek immortality through kids , through an extended family. So that my dna may pass and survive even when I physically die.
So great is the thirst of man to become immortal, to become great !

And what is the greatest of all ? that which is the essence of the world , Waheguru ji himself or we may call that reality as brahm , allah, jehowah , ...whatever.

So the intention is good but why then pain , corruption , fraud, casteism , discrimination ?

Because of ignorance !

"I" am ! this is what separates me from the world. This "I" is what separates each of us from everyone else. There's 2 things in practical life : "me" and everyone else .

This wall of separation is caused by maya , an illusion that you and me are different .
That there is no common essence between you and me.

With "I" in the mind, now the desire of soul is interpreted in a corrupted manner by the mind.
The desire to be great, the desire to be immortal was always there.

But now , its only "me" because definition of "I" / "me" is narrow .
So "my family" , "my religion", "my caste" , "my sexuality" , "my gender" is superior to the rest . Everyone else is inferior .

Enlightenment is merging of this soul in god and the knowledge that since god is in everyone, neither am I stranger to anyone nor am I different from anyone.
Such a person is enlightened , free from casteism , misogyny, homophobia, etc.
 
We ourselves have failed on casteism .

I remember a video on youtube showing a so called "nihang" shooing away dalits from gurudwara because he said gurudwaras are to be kept separate for castes.
Apparently , "chooreh" (garbage-collector lower castes) are to either not come in gurudwaras or make their separate ones ! which beggars the belief then can we blame ravidassias for breaking away from panth ?

Our community has muslim hatred and bhaiyya-phobia.

I agree sikh history with muslim is mostly not a pleasant one, but we can't hate an entire community. Yet I see most sikh families being despiseful of muslims.
And dislike for anyone from UP or bihar , the infamous "bhaiyya-phobia".
Apparently we're superior than people from other states ?
despite the fact that Guru Gobind Singh ji were born in patna , capital of 'bhaiyya-land'.

I think we as a community could have preacher to bhaiyyas and chooreh , and bring them in sikh fold, but we're too obsessed with our 'sardari' superiority

 

[RD1]

We seek growth , we seek immortality ,

This is a very interesting perspective! Seeking growth, seeking immortality, seems to eventually evolve into seeking to "be better," and here we have ego making its grand entrance. And then here we get the "I" and the "other," as you said....

an illusion that you and me are different .
That there is no common essence between you and me.

An ego out of check is poison to ourselves, and to everyone around us.

When one begin to see others as separate, this is when all features of humanity we associate with ourselves, can be stripped away from the "other," and all kinds of violence can erupt, including perpetuation of casteism.

We humans are always doing this. This me versus you, and us versus them mentality is consistently everywhere.

How much ignorance has swept into the Sikh ideology that people are shooing others from a different caste away from gurdwaras!?!? This is in total and complete opposition to why langar and gurdwaras were started in the first place! The whole purpose was to bring people no matter who they are, together, to break away from discrimination. Are people just that ignorant of Sikh teachings, or just caught up in their own bigotry, or are they too heavily influence by Hindu teachings and cannot separate them from Sikh teachings?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Message Original
Original ji,

Respected Tejwant Singh Ji - good evening,

You are mixing apples with mangoes again.
.

.makes good {censored}tail !

Not my cup or tea.

Yes, human rights are violated with the help of caste system but this is a unique phenomena only in Hinduism.
..not quite Sir ! try the Osu in Nigera and Burakumin in Japan ! Places like Kenya and some parts of North Africa are not immune either.

Both Osu, Burakumin are based on blind faith, tradition and tribal hierarchy which Sikhi rejects and you embrace. Secondly and more importantly, allow me to ask you:
Are these discriminations on the above cases based on reincarnation too as Hinduism is?

This has nothing to do with small brain but small mind
.

.it has everything to do with the small brain, it is the small brain that generates the mind !

Please elaborate with some scientific data for your claim.

In other words, it is not about the hardware but the software whose code is written by Hindu gods/goddesses.
..that'll be your perception Sir !

That is where the caste system comes from.

Our human progress in other fields will continue not by any divine prophecy but by human curiosity to learn,adapt and adjust.
..nothing happens without Akal Purakh's [AP] Hukam, AP is divine in Sikhism !

I am glad you used Hukum here which is contrary to the miracles you believe in the latter as per your post in an another thread.

Please allow me to take your last sentence where you quoted Spinoza first, but before I do that, please give us the whole quote rather than of what you fancy for your discussion. Allow me to elaborate it. '..don't laugh at human actions..' which implies that Baruch(Hebrew) Spinoza, Benedito de Espinosa (Portuguese), he was born in a Portuguese Jewish colony in Amsterdam, is telling others, in this case us, not to laugh at human actions as per your quote, which is false.
..this'd be the persuasive element in creative writing, connecting ideas if you like, to tease thinking !

The whole quote will clarify what Spinoza said,
"I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, nor to hate them, but to understand them". – Baruch Spinoza
correct..well done !

Here, you would notice that Spinoza is talking about himself. He is not lecturing anyone else as you implied through your incorrect quote of his. One should not distort the quotes by others for one's personal 'advantage' for the sake of argument rather than having a discussion/interaction where all can learn. You have done the same with Kant in the past.
.

.I've cited an authority to hammer home a message [note, not quote per se] that humankind in its infancy did some horrible things, such as the caste system in social stratification ! And that, understanding thereof, not hatred will liberate the spirit from the shackles of mental dispositions.

You have not cited anyone but yourself. Honesty is important in our truthful living because you distorted Spinoza's quote to prove your point it seems, but have failed miserably due to the distortion of what Spinoza said. Please try again.

It has nothing to do with, "sikhi sikhia gur vichar" [p465 SGGSJ],
..

.it has everything to do with "sikhi sikhia gur vichar", meaning, unlike other faiths [Islam, Christianity], Sikhism don't believe that you have to be a Sikh to find favour in God's eyes. Whether you're a Hindu or an Alien doesn't matter, what does matter is the life philosophy of the "gurus" way which liberates the spirit through the three pillars of the disciplined life, namely, KR, VS and Nam Jap.

Gulping your favourite {censored}tail again. Please define God in your post first above.

Does your god have eyes? Abrahamic and Hindu gods do. This is the reason I understand which is your belief system. It is not Sikhi for sure.

Vichar does not need either belief or faith,
..

.I'll go along with that ! empty heads have long tongues [Chinese proverb].

Thanks for admitting that after contradicting yourself. Gurbani is Shabad Vichar, hence sans belief.

Can you give us some concrete examples with references for your claim above?
.

.certainly ! I'm from the jat clan, never taught my kids anything of the sort, they are casteless therefore.

It is hilarious to say the least. You are talking about casteless while flaunting your own caste. LOL.

Secondly and more importantly, telling your kids that they belong to a Jat caste but are casteless is an oxy{censored}.

Is that the depth of your research and the result regarding the existence of casteism? Please supply some data to back your claim up.

This is good news! When was this 'caste based discrimination' added to Equality Act 2010?
Since its addition, have the government and/or human rights advocates like yourself collected any raw data about its effect?

How many high caste Hindus have married the low caste Hindus and vice versa in the UK since this addition of the clause in the bill? Please share your data with us.
.

.I'm sorry, you'd have to read up on it, I'm not up-to-date with recent case law ! I believe it is still going through the legislative process; suffice to add, employment tribunals have started entertaining cases based on caste discrimination. And, hence the insertion "good news".

It is your duty to give data as you are the one who claimed your assertions. So please do not cop out. What is the "Good News"? Without the proper data, one can not conclude anything.

Thanks