The Use Of Metaphor In Gurbani And How To Use That When Interpreting Shabads

[Harry Haller]

I have learnt much from this thread from everyone, see how we all come together to produce the answers, the beauty of sangat in action

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The Bani which has not been written in Raags has no ‘Rahao’ in it.

Veer ji Tejwant Singh I did not paste in full because that is just an example showing that we can read them in absence of the context and structure of a Shabad.The Quoted line does confirm that the pause is part of the structure of a Raag .It may be that you see that part as a central,or like Gyani ji has said it has an emphasis for the raagi,but for the reader let us view it from inside the Tuk and then on every occasion they will all appear central to us.

Findingmyway Ji When I say we shall lock horns ,what I mean is that we should bring our heads together.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

SP ji.."locking horns" is far from "bringing heads together"....at least in my English classes I was taught.....LOL...SGGS uses ..Gurmukh baithehe saffan vichaayeah....Gurmukhs sit together on mats spread on the floor...which is perfect !!!

Locking Horns derives from Male Horned animal behaviour..and these hardly use that as a form of "friendly discussion"...ha ha Just have a look at a Male Goat, Male reindeer Bara Singah, Bulls. Rams...etc "locking horns"...and you would agree its not friendly at all....Friendhsip or discussion is hardly on their minds..its a FIGHT for DOMINATION and DEATH....

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Gyani Ji I agree peacesignThis technology is wonderful ,before I used to knock heads with my neighbours, now I can do it with people all over the world.WaheGuru works in mysterious ways

 

[Harry Haller]

Excellent Spji,

Except if you were inputting positives instead of negatives that would be Waheguru working in mysterious ways, as it stands its the five thieves working in mysterious ways........:grinningsingh:

 

[Admin]

Gyani Ji I agree peacesignThis technology is wonderful ,before I used to knock heads with my neighbours, now I can do it with people all over the world.WaheGuru works in mysterious ways

Scarlet Pimpernel ji,

There is a famous English proverb... Pen is mightier than a Sword... we need to choose our words spoken or written very carefully... because words once written or spoken cannot be taken back... although in a public forum like SPN, we can re-edit our writings immediately after being confronted... :grinningsingh:

A deep wound caused by a sword can heal over a period of time but the hurt/guilt caused by words carelessly spoken or written can last for a lifetime... even though these words may have been written thousands of miles adrift... Waheguru indeed works in amazingly mysterious ways...

:blueturban:
Gurfateh!

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

We have no capacity to question as why so...in Gurbani.We should share the essence of Gurbani.After all the whole Gurbani is graceful for everyone.So we can try to extract maxi spritual understanding as per views of GuRu.There are suffcient hints given by Guru for such understanding.We can care for that.
In this respect I would expect that Giyani Jarnail Singh ji can play a pivotol rloe.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Except if you were inputting positives instead of negatives

Harry Veer ji My input was not negative ,the response was negative,that I do not mind ,my father always says my talent is finding flaws,I have become excellent in it,just as Bruce Lee said 'I do not fear the man who knows ten thousand kicks, but I fear the man who has practised the same kick, ten thousand times.'If there is another champion of contradiction, let him stand up ,we shall lock horns so tight that it will seem we are hugging .
mundahug

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Veer ji Tejwant Singh I did not paste in full because that is just an example showing that we can read them in absence of the context and structure of a Shabad.The Quoted line does confirm that the pause is part of the structure of a Raag .It may be that you see that part as a central,or like Gyani ji has said it has an emphasis for the raagi,but for the reader let us view it from inside the Tuk and then on every occasion they will all appear central to us.

Findingmyway Ji When I say we shall lock horns ,what I mean is that we should bring our heads together.

Sp ji,

Guru Fateh.

But that was not the point of our interaction. Our interaction was and still is what significance Rahao plays in understanding Gurbani and I would just like to stick to that.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

All it seems much has been covered before some of us joined spn. Great article and pretty concise,


http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/2329-post1.html

Excerpted from the above,

________________________________________________________________
1.14 The Use of Word ‘Rahao’ in Guru Granth Sahib
1. The word ‘Rahao’ is related to the Raag of the composition. The ‘Rahao’ refers to the ‘Sthaee’ in a Raag.
2. It also underlines the basic idea in a hymn.
3. Where there are two ‘Rahaos’ in a hymn, the first poses a question and the second gives an answer.
4. Where there are three ‘Rahaos’ in a hymn, the first would be an inspiration, the second would refer to constraints and the third would be an advice. (see pages 154-55).
5. Where there are six ‘Rahaos’ in a hymn, it refers to the individual ‘Sthaee’, in the Raag. (see pages 81-82).
6. In Ramkali Di Var Mehla 3 the word ‘Rahao’ has been used so that the line should be sung again and again.
7. The Bani which has not been written in Raags has no ‘Rahao’ in it.
___________________________________________________________________

Sat Sri Akal

Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for finding the thread. I totally agree with it. In any musical composition, when a verse is repeatedly sung, it means the singer/author wants to emphasise on that particular line/verse, so the message in that line/verse is not lost. That is the reason it is easier to remember the sung Shabads or songs where some lines/verses are repeated often. Hence, the importance of the usage of Rahao in Gurbani.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
I would like to bring to your kind notice one of my observations that in Baanee of RAAgu MAANJH M 4 and MAANJH M 5 pp 94 to 109 SGGS. there is no tuk of Rahao for nearly fifty continuous Sabads. Pl share your views on this point of my observation.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Tejwant Singh]

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
I would like to bring to your kind notice one of my observations that in Baanee of RAAgu MAANJH M 4 and MAANJH M 5 pp 94 to 109 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. there is no tuk of Rahao for nearly fifty continuous Sabads. Pl share your views on this point of my observation.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Parkash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Yes, there is no Rahao in these 50 continuous Shabads. This has nothing to do with the present discussion which is on the significance of Rahao.

Having said that, there is no better expert than you are to share your insights about the absence of Rahao from the Shabads you mention above.

I am still waiting from you the explanations and meanings of different ways the word Gur, Guru, Guru with sihari etc etc are written in SGGS.

To be honest, I am a bit bewildered to see your reluctance of not sharing your wisdom as a Sikh with all of us who are hungry to learn from you.

It is a shame to notice that you keep on pointing the differences in Gurbani but despite our repeated requests to you, you keep mum. Why?

So, I would request you to come out of your self imposed cocoon and share your wisdom with us for the points you have raised because you have given us the impression that you know the answers but refuse to offer them for the reasons only known to you.

We, as Sikhs can not become snakes and protect this wonderful treasure but it is our duty to share with others. That is why Guru Nanak said " Vand kei Chaknah".

I hope you would adhere to Guru Nanak's request.

Hope to learn from you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

So, I would request you to come out of your self imposed cocoon

Veer Ji I don't think Bagga Ji is hiding what he knows,he perhaps understands ,but that is something you can't share,especially with someone who has decided to study Religion when a simple man knows Religion is understanding and the study of your Self.

Just look how courteously Bagga Ji posted and then see how harsh was the response he recieved from the 'scholar'.

 

[Ambarsaria]

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
I would like to bring to your kind notice one of my observations that in Baanee of RAAgu MAANJH M 4 and MAANJH M 5 pp 94 to 109 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. there is no tuk of Rahao for nearly fifty continuous Sabads. Pl share your views on this point of my observation.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post. You obviously have studued Gurbani intimately and I bow before you for that.

I note the following for all's consideration:

Guru Granth Sahib shabads are as follows (not my but info extracted from someone else):


2 verses - (dupadas), 608
3 verses - (tripade), 73
4 verses - (chaupadas), 1,255
5 verses - (panchpadas), 80
6 verses - (chhepedas), 11 verses
8 verses - (Ashtpadian), 311
16 verses - (sohilas), 62

In the Gurbani referred to we have the following,


"ਮਾਝਮਹਲਾ੫ਚਉਪਦੇਘਰx॥"
So even though it is written inਮਾਝ (maajh) raag it is of the style (chaupadas). The four stanzas for me naturally are composed of to create a shabad hence there is a defined structure for understanding. Where the "ਰਾਗੁਮਾਝਚਉਪਦੇਘਰੁ੧ਮਹਲਾ੪" gurbani ends and at the start of "ਮਾਝਮਹਲਾ੫ਚਉਪਦੇਘਰੁ੧॥" three ਰਹਾਉ (rahao) are used. ending at, "ਹਉਘੋਲੀਜੀਉਘੋਿਲਘੁਮਾਈਜਨਨਾਨਕਦਾਸਤੁਮਾਰੇਜੀਉ॥ਰਹਾਉ॥੧॥੮॥" Then no “Rahao” used to॥੪॥੪੩॥੫੦॥.

So this illustrates that Rahao is a multi-facetted construct used in Gurbani to convey the message the way Gurbani writer's (our Guru ji's and others) chose was to allow for specific and easy understanding and rendition. So sometimes rahao may appear for understanding/highlight, a break, a rendition style guide dependent upon the specific raag.

In a way it actually forces us to not look for easy ways of study but always aware and without presumption way of study. Hence certain rules that have been created as short cuts (say "rahao" pungtee (line)) while may work many a times are also liable to fail.

Let me quote something that I recollect someone saying,

"ਤੁਸੀਂ ਰਹਾਉ ਵਾਲੀ ਲਾਈਨ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਲਅੋ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਬਦੁ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਨ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ੍ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ"
(You read the rahao line you don't need to read the shabad.)

By the way this is nobody at spn but one of our acquaintances.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Veer Ji I don't think Bagga Ji is hiding what he knows,he perhaps understands ,but that is something you can't share,especially with someone who has decided to study Religion when a simple man knows Religion is understanding and the study of your Self.

Just look how courteously Bagga Ji posted and then see how harsh was the response he recieved from the 'scholar'.

SP ji,

Guru Fateh.

If I were you, I would just focus on the subject being discussed, in this case
the grammar and the significance of Rahao along with other things.

I would leave the personal judgements with the people I know personally. Let me repeat again as I mentioned before to you that no one here is a scholar. We are all here to learn and Bagga Sahib, whom I have known for years unlike you knows I have the greatest regards for him.

And what is with the BOLD?

Tejwant Singh

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I were you

Veer ji I'm not judging, but it seems we should all try to be Gentlemen and Scholars , I should concede that you are correct and further that what little understanding I possess was flawed.
My apoligies, I should not have added that last line in my previous post as you have a better understanding of forum correctness than I do, had I had your ear I would have have messaged you in private ,I did not mean to be disrespectful ,I shall give up my boldness as you command .

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

There is a famous English proverb... Pen is mightier than a Sword... we need to choose our words spoken or written very carefully... because words once written or spoken cannot be taken back.

Veera you seem to have misunderstood this saying, this teaches us about the power of the pen ,when used correctly as when someone write's well like Shakespeare.
This saying is not referring 'to choose our words spoken or written very carefully', it refers to how mighty the pen can be,you are referring to how sharp the pen can be.
Proverb,
Pen is mightier than a Sword
More influence and power can be usurped by writing than by fighting.
As for me changing my words for fear of confrontation ,as far as I'm aware this forum does not involve real confrontation ,if you were to confront me in person ,you will see I don't change my words out of fear, when I self edit it ,it is because I feel I have been to harsh.

 

[Admin]

Thanks for enlightening me!

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
Wahi GuRoo ji ka khalsa
Wahi GuRoo ji ki fateh

I think we have shared views in the subject of Gurbani grammer right in the very begining.You would recapitulate that nothing was kept as secret in the sharing of views and in fact at one point you did share the views as "interesting".But I dont know we had discontinuity in the subject.
Sir ji,there is nothing to keep secret in context of Gurbani.When our GuRu sahib gave us
THE TREASURE SGGS with the instructions to search for PRABH from within Sabads.
My observation is that we have not tried to search for that and probably for this reason there are lot of differences in our thinking of Gurbani.
I simply present my observations for sharing and never intend to go beyond what is there in Gurbani.I try to live cent percent with SGGS.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Thanks for enlightening me!

Veera Don't mention it and I understood what you meant, this quote might have been more apt considering the circumstances.

'I have often repented speaking, but never of holding my tongue '

Xenocrates