Controversial Told DAD That Meat Is NOT Forbidden, And He Gets ANGRY!

[Sashahere]

How hypocritical people are these days!! Your compassion extends to all life? Embrace all life??
Wait what!!! Then where is that regard for life when you allow plants, saag, spinach, curd, mushrooms, yeast, bacteria, leather, medicines, antibiotics, antiseptics, air you breathe, water "purifier" in your daily life? Or is our embracing only limited to those who can shriek and cry when we cut their throats?? Ever touched a "touch-me-not"? You'd see how sensitive it is but still is not a loud-mouth like us. THIS is a slippery slope...where would you end embracing the life? after chicken? after meat? milk? fungus?
These are exactly the kind of silly things Guru Nanak deemed not worthy of discussion and writes so many times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that discussion upon such things is a profession of fools and I am one of 'em because I have this compulsion to speak against this attitude of "holier-than-thou", "higher-than-thou", "purer-than-thou" vege-fascists who just want to impose their diktats all over the planet. and I might invite further wrath for saying this but upon being a mostly silent spectator on so many forums since 4-5 years, the people who have been most fanatical about this veg.-non-veg. propaganda have been from 3HO organization. I used to think that these people will be the shining star in the future of Sikhi but the fanaticism is abound there (not among all but the ones I have had the opportunity to talk with) :motherlove:

They only way you can argue what I say it to say humans are better then animals and therefore it doesn't matter that they suffer, and die having lived only a 1/5 of their life. But if anything I said to you in my previous reply spoke to you and you want to know where your food is actually coming from, whether you are interested in vegetarianism or not, I recommend the movie Food Inc. Did you know that any flesh you consume is coming from an animal fed corn, an unnatural diet, and therefor this makes the animal very sick, and it's body riddled with e-coli. When the muscle is actually cut off the animal it is soaked in a bath of ammonia, which makes the flesh turn grey, and it is subsequently dyed red with a very poisonous compound before the muscle is given to the supper market for you to buy and eat? Even though I am not the one in the factory who has to do these things, I consider the danger and difficulty and disgust of the work, and I make sure my choices don't make people have to work in these kinds of conditions, in these kinds of factories, because, even though I have a choice now, one day I might be in a tough spot, and one day I might have to apply and work in a factory where animals are being killed and I will curse the bourgeoisie that think it is ok that they eat a burger because they are not the ones doing the work. Unfortunately these are the only jobs available to some people, often immigrants south of the US boarder looking for a better life. IF you only care about human life, consider at least these people who have to work in horrid conditions and often die from the results of what they did on the job. But then again this argument only stands if you have a regard for all human life, and not just some races, or some classes.

 

[Canada]

I've reported you for your racist comments,
I fail to see anything racist in Harry jis comments. He basically said that the pompous and humourless are not well received in Punjabi.He said nothing about race..

apologies, I always get confused, ahh French Canadians, yes, I remember watching them in South Park, ok, now I am with you

Your comments are always so useless linzer, could you please stay on topic or read the thread?

How hypocritical people are these days!! Your compassion extends to all life? Embrace all life??
Wait what!!! Then where is that regard for life when you allow plants, saag, spinach, curd, mushrooms, yeast, bacteria, leather, medicines, antibiotics, antiseptics, air you breathe, water "purifier" in your daily life? Or is our embracing only limited to those who can shriek and cry when we cut their throats?? Ever touched a "touch-me-not"? You'd see how sensitive it is but still is not a loud-mouth like us. THIS is a slippery slope...where would you end embracing the life? after chicken? after meat? milk? fungus?
These are exactly the kind of silly things Guru Nanak deemed not worthy of discussion and writes so many times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that discussion upon such things is a profession of fools and I am one of 'em because I have this compulsion to speak against this attitude of "holier-than-thou", "higher-than-thou", "purer-than-thou" vege-fascists who just want to impose their diktats all over the planet. and I might invite further wrath for saying this but upon being a mostly silent spectator on so many forums since 4-5 years, the people who have been most fanatical about this veg.-non-veg. propaganda have been from 3HO organization. I used to think that these people will be the shining star in the future of Sikhi but the fanaticism is abound there (not among all but the ones I have had the opportunity to talk with) :motherlove:

I'm not associated with 3HO, and I agree that it is not worthy of discussion to argue about whether or not to eat meat. Really, I never once said "stop eating meat!" I just provided the factual information about what the consequences are to eating meat. It's really a matter of ethics, not diet.
As for your "omgosh the bacteria" argument; I'm not a Jain, it's pretty impossible not to kill single-celled organisms. Walk outside and you're killing millions - just by living you're killing trillions of them.
That's really not the point. Bacteria live their lives the way they were intended to be - I don't consider it a coincidence that these animals were not given a nervous system capable of feeling pain, when they are doomed to live so short of a life!
Animals that do feel pain; insects, reptiles, mammals, birds, fish etc.. live much longer and have some sort of intelligence (have you ever watched ants? even they seem to be intelligent). Again, it's a question of ethics, and it extends far beyond whether you should eat meat or not.. should we chop down rainforests to feed more livestock and build more pointless buildings? Should we continue to destroy animal habitats for the sake of "progress"?
All of this comes down to the human being seeing himself above nature, animals, and yes, even the bacteria (hence biology).
So, in fact... you are accusing me of being "holier-than-thou" and above others; but I say to you, it is you who feels that way if you cannot see the simple truth of your actions upon these living beings that you see below you.
I have no harsh feelings towards those who eat meat; it may appear that way, but this is what happens when someone makes a hateful comment about my heritage and purposely tries to get me going.
I ate it as a child too. It's how I was raised and taught; no one told me of the consequences of my actions. A large part of my reason for becoming a Sikh was, yes, to become a 'saintly' person, but there is also the warrior aspect: to fight against corruption. Well, you see, what I have just described is clearly a form of corruption. How can I say that, right? Who am I to judge what is right and wrong in nature? I know what Guru Nanak Ji meant by that. I think he was just saying that it's ridiculous to think you're a good/spiritual person just because you renounce meat; and if you argue to people about this topic but do not work on your own meditation and union with Waheguru then you are a fool. There is no need to just ignore the topic all together as if it makes no difference either way; because it clearly does.

But may I remind you that we are now consuming massive amounts of poison in our food and water; water beds everywhere (including Punjab - what a coincidence) are poisoned beyond use because of run-off from livestock farms and GMO/pesticide crops. GMO is the ultimate "I am above nature and will control it" science; and look what it is doing to us.
Look at the cancer rates; nature's "hey you're being a virus, please die now".
Look at global warming, the displaced animals, the destroyed habitats.

I know what you're thinking now. Canada Ji, focus on yourself! Don't worry about the world. Well, being a person who's actually read a book or two, I know that change does not come from up high (if you recall how well that failed with Stalin!), but from the individuals making a subjective, but collective, change. So of course I have changed my lifestyle to reflect these issues, and I do not condemn those who haven't; I simply can't ignore that someone believes I am saying these things because I believe myself to be above everyone else/certain people. It is, in fact, the opposite. Because unless we do make these sorts of changes; it won't be the animals suffering anymore, it will be all of us. It would seem you all have the 'saint' part figured out, or you think you do, I'm not the one to judge - but the warrior part has slipped your mind. Is this the world you leave to your children, grandchildren, the rest of the Sangat? If it is, they will be extinct like all the other animals we're murdering.

I'm not writing anything else after this. I'll leave with a quote from Murakami's 1Q84: "If you can't understand it without an explanation, you won't understand it with one".

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[linzer]

I don't find racism, murder or ignorance funny. According to you, then, Punjab is just full of ignorant racists, right? Who else would you like to insult today?
Your comments are always so useless linzer, could you please stay on topic or read the thread?

Just trying to put an end to the name calling that you and your wife started so you could get back to topic.

thanks

 

[namritanevaeh]

Here's my thoughts on eating meat:

Very many animals eat the meat of other animals. Lions, for example, which many Sikh men seem to like to compare themselves to. "Singh". Have you ever watched a lion chase and kill it's prey? They're not exactly "kind" and merciful about it. Also, even if you are a "devout vegetarian", you "eat meat" since EVERYONE, in their lifetime, eats some amount of insects, like it or not. We get a fly that comes in our mouth while we sleep, and we swallow it, for example. It happens even if you don't think it does.

Now here's the question: if other animals do eat meat, why should we not? Is it because we are somehow "better than them"? If that is truely the case, then why? And if it is truely the case, then why should we be bothered at eating something that is less than us, in the end? It seems to me to be a bit of a Möbius strip where you can never get out of it...if you assume we should not eat meat because we are nicer and kinder and more evolved than say a lion or bear or tiger, then what of the people who say "we should not kill animals because they should have rights too"? And in the end...what of plant rights too? Plants are all living creatures too, and contribute to the world's ecosystems. Why should we consider them less than animals? It is almost like the saying in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ about how why should we not respect a woman, for from her womb life is born...from plant life, we BREATHE. What is more important to our lives, in an INSTANTANEOUS sense, than the oxygen we breathe? We can survive probably months and years or a lifetime without meat, or without a "specific food"...whether healthily or not. We can survive a month or so without ANY food. Only maybe 2-4 days with no water...and only a few minutes without oxygen. If anything, we should maybe be more reverent towards plant matter than anything else on the planet...and yet what would vegetarians have us eating in the end?

In terms of health, I honestly think that most people would be healthier if some animal products are consumed, and I don't personally think that milk products are the ones to opt for. They were created for baby calves, not for humans or other animals. Eggs, fine. If you take a vegan, frequently they are very low, deficient, even, on vitamin B12. It's almost impossible to get without animal products.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

 

[namritanevaeh]

where would you end embracing the life? after chicken? after meat? milk? fungus?

Not to mention...does anyone here have any clue just how "alive" raw milk is?

It is teeming with life, literally. It of course would have a certain amount of bacteria in it, but it also has healthy portions of antibodies that are species-specific, and many other living factors. If you were to compare it to say a plant, it is probably "more alive" than that, in some sense of the definition...though I think it embarks upon a certain level of areas of grey where you can't really compare one to the other...

:sippingcoffee:

 

[MakSingh]

- with the meat thing. I dont care whats written its not right to consume food that promotes cruelty (I'm a vegan)

HOWEVER - I'm a 38 year old man who has seen alot of life. You sound like a young individual who just innocently wants to enjoy life

You're father. Although his intentions might be pure hes going the wrong way about it. He's behaving like a racist tyrant.

You can't inspire your kids with that kind of behaviour.

I was born in a lacto vegetarian family. Vegetarian till 21. But then started eating meat, drinking smoking. Why? Because both my parents were tyrants. They wouldnt let me travel the world. I waited till i turned 21 as they promised when I get old enough I can do what I want.

But they were just full of shit. Liars. Never hesitated to take my pay but still wouldn't allow me my freedom. I rebelled. Did everything they were against. Started coming home late etc. Drunk.

Once my mum beat me so badly and said that i am so ugly that no one will marry me.

I married out of religion and caste to a hindu gujrati girl.

Finally at after married life after my 1st child i gave it all up. No meat no drinking no smoking. Because i wanted to INSPIRE my child. After my 2nd child I became vegan. So i gave up dairy and honey as well as i want to live as long as physically possible for my children.

Now. My children are not vegan. They are lacto vegetarian. I would love it if they did become vegan but.. I cannot force my children to live my life. I can only INSPIRE.

Your father needs to chill out big time.

First of all im a 25 year old MONA that eats meat, and my dad has been case dhari AMRIT vegetarian for 20 years, who KEEPS TELLING ME TO STOP MEAT.

So yeah I told my father about the FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH ARTICLE (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html) which basicly Proves that Meat is neither forbidden or recomended, and the same for Veg foods.

And my father got angry... and was hardly letting me finish sentences. Saying meat is wrong bla bla bla! It was like he was so fanatical about his current beleif, that I said to him i think you are getting angry (and also a victim of KROHD/rage) because you have thought your beleifs to be RIGHT for SO LONG (20 years) that if you find out otherwise now, your AHANKAAR does not want to risk any chance of believing it to be true.

He went further with scare mongering tactics like "You will see when you die and you are reincarnated as a animal etc".

Even when im telling him the quote from Nanak:
"The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat."

And he keeps trying to change the meaning of the quote to fit his agenda (convert me to vegetarism. Where as im saying that neither DIET is recommended in the GGSJ)

--
Also I WILL stop meat WHEN I WANT TO, and NOT because my DAD keeps telling me to, because of his silly history.

- For example when he was 24 years old (NON AMRIT) He slapped my mother for eating meat (BTW THEY BOTH ATE MEAT BEFORE THEY GOT MARRIED, BUT AFTER MY DAD TURNED RELIGOUS, AND THEN TRIED FORCING IT UPON MY MUM)
- He also started hitting my mum because she let her MUSLIM (non religious) friend in the house

BUT the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI promotes PEACE and LOVE to ALL the HUMAN RACE, not ignorent predujices like this (when the muslim friend wasnt even {censored word, do not repeat.}in religious)

ALSO GGSJ says:
"Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

So how can you treat a muslim with disrespect (falseness) when the MUSLIM is made from following the KORAN.
DAMN I HATE HYPOCREATES or HALF EDUCATED PEOPLE on SIKHI SHOVING THEIR BELIVES DOWN MY THROAT

 

[Joginder Singh Foley]

- with the meat thing. I dont care whats written its not right to consume food that promotes cruelty (I'm a vegan)

HOWEVER - I'm a 38 year old man who has seen alot of life. You sound like a young individual who just innocently wants to enjoy life

You're father. Although his intentions might be pure hes going the wrong way about it. He's behaving like a racist tyrant.

You can't inspire your kids with that kind of behaviour.

I was born in a lacto vegetarian family. Vegetarian till 21. But then started eating meat, drinking smoking. Why? Because both my parents were tyrants. They wouldnt let me travel the world. I waited till i turned 21 as they promised when I get old enough I can do what I want.

But they were just full of shit. Liars. Never hesitated to take my pay but still wouldn't allow me my freedom. I rebelled. Did everything they were against. Started coming home late etc. Drunk.

Once my mum beat me so badly and said that i am so ugly that no one will marry me.

I married out of religion and caste to a hindu gujrati girl.

Finally at after married life after my 1st child i gave it all up. No meat no drinking no smoking. Because i wanted to INSPIRE my child. After my 2nd child I became vegan. So i gave up dairy and honey as well as i want to live as long as physically possible for my children.

Now. My children are not vegan. They are lacto vegetarian. I would love it if they did become vegan but.. I cannot force my children to live my life. I can only INSPIRE.

Your father needs to chill out big time.

WGKK-WGKF

You have the right idea I believe, A Sikh can only inform, A Sikh cannot impose and has no right to impose Sikh beliefs and practices on others, It is that other person's choice to accept or refuse the teachings of Sikhi and only his [Or her] choice no one else can make that choice for him [Or her]

 

[Parma]

What's food; thats Deep? I think deeper still is the silence of hunger as everything is Langar in the animal Kingdom. As civilised human beings we tend to think before we eat though still. The technicalities of peaceful existence this piece of technology is the hardest piece of mind to overcome for all life thoughts from a lions strategy on a field to a flowers consumption of nutrients somethings just seem natural the deeper you get the more intriguing the food sources chain gets as we eat we realise that everything has a defence strategy an obstacles but your deepest end thought will always be can a soul ever be removed and free. Some people see ghosts or spirits very few see the akal purakh God. Guru Nanak reformed a cannibalistic individual in the formation of rights and wrongs his strategy of peace outweighs all other points and so the spirit guides and they say they need proof of a soul. Does nature have a thought or is everything just an impulse? I'll leave for a soul chef to ponder.... Atam Hathya = Also known as; Suicide.

 

[notanotherloginplease]

There are do's and dont's and their sole purpose is to benefit sikh spiritually. And meat eating does not help anyone to grow spiritually but it hinder your progress.
I will not say anything about other foods to make matter more complex, because this question is specifically about meat.
"Whats forbidden and whats not ", its matter of how you interpret gurbani. Same bani could be understood differently by different intellects. Its you, who have to do the research and decide.