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Transmigration

Harry Haller

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.a Real Sikh is he/she who comes to learn and not teach [rules me out]. Who better than you Sir Harry, when it comes to learning, a model student. You are a true Sikh who stands on an unmovable "path" [Sikh the learner]. It is not the strongest, nor the intelligent but the most responsive to accept change and you have it.

Everything I have learned has been through fire and brimstone, scars stop you making the same mistakes again and again, and is much more effective than theology, in my opinion (see what I did there), learning is quite painful for me, I have to be bloodied and bruised before I do, I live and learn through life, I thought that made me a Sikh once, but the absence of any theology negates that, lets say I live by certain Sikh values that are universal.

I hope one day you will understand the difference between Sikhism and Philosophy - you will unquestionably fall in love with the wisdom of your forefathers - who were Sikhs and always will be Sikhs.
Oh I do, only too well, Sikhism is Sikh Philosophy diluted by tradition and culture
.much of what I write can be cross-checked with my Guru [SGGSJ]. I only translate n interpret Gurbani consistent with the teachings of Guru Granth and Guru Panth. As I said earlier, my forefathers lived in a society and at a time when belief in afterlife was rife. Europeans call it reincarnation, transmigration; we call it janam janam [see today's hukamnama]. And of course, we've evolved from having a bird brain to a King Singh 1.
I can, and have provided links to respected people within the Sikh community that would disagree with you, I won't because it gets us nowhere, you will have to accept that the above is not the only way lauded by Sikhism.
.no, not at all. Only trying to protect n preserve the teachings of my forefathers. Coconuts like you and my own children [some of them] will dilute it beyond recognition if not policed.
Yes, you mentioned this when we met, as I munched your mangoes, (that is not a euphemism), I resent the use of the word coconut, although I know it is not an insult, more a statement of fact, your saying I am white inside, and brown outside, take a good look at our motherland next time you go home, from what I hear, I am an amateur, India, Punjab is becoming is actually to western for me, its more western than the west, so happens when the coconuts become mainstream? its already happening, look at the news, the tv, our homeland is one big coconut. As it happens, I resent the term because my inside is neither white nor brown, I never embraced british culture anymore than I embraced Indian culture, I just wanted to know the truth, whatever colour it was, I respect your desire to police this, you will not be offended if I therefore police you. After all someone has to police the police, no?

..no that's not true, he's a beautiful soul who has his own agenda. Besides, you can't serve two masters, I can only serve SGGSJ, the "original" with 1430 pages and I obey my Panth, albeit, needing constitutional reform. He's divorced them both.

and I am sure he feels exactly the same as you, with the same feelings regarding divorce, so who are we to believe? but its not about that, everyone should be able to put their point forward without running to convenient one liners that may possibly have incorrect translations, and have been invariably taken out of context from the entire essence of what they may have been trying to portray.

..Guru Gobind Singh, after losing His four sons in the name of Sikhi, was tormented by His wife mata ji Sundari, thus: "where are my sons ?" to which he replied, "char mua toa kiya huya jeevat kai hazaar" [translation - so what if you've lost four, thousand will be born]. You, I and others are His sons/daughters, Gobind Singh have therefore, reincarnated.

that is not definitive, that is another way to justify your stance, I asked how it worked, with respect, not another soundbite, so how does it work, can you explain the mechanics, again, I am not being twee, I want to know, you get born, you do stuff, you die, fill in the blanks.,

...Hindu, if you ask me is a derogatory term coined by the minor Asia lot [Arabs] to socially segregate the early ethic communities living in and around River Indus as inferior sub-species. From an ideological perspective, the theory of reincarnation both compliments and corroborates with the workings of Nanak's AP. It provides the necessary time span for the scales of justice to be balanced, since clearly such does not always occur in a single life. And Nanak's reincarnation answers with simple clarity n precision the most complex questions: "why do bad things happen to good people ?" along with the converse, "why do good things happen to bad people ?". Nanak answers beautifully, "karmi apo apni" [you reap what you saw]. This dovetails neatly into theoretical thinking [reincarnation]. That is to say, what we are today is the result of our yesterdays, meaning past lives.

what about pigs? bring the animals into this, before we go any further, but thank you for starting.

Sikh is a distinct and unique religion that was "revealed" not found nor created, but revealed to young Nanak because evolution [God] deemed it critical for the inhabitants of Indus Valley civilization to survive the onslaught of the barbaric conquering Moslems. Sikhs own India and not just Khalistan.

this is a classic case in point, now this is your opinion, and its a good opinion, not as good as the opinion that I do actually look like Dolph Lungdren, now that is a good opinion, but yours is good too, however, "[God] deemed it critical for the inhabitants of Indus Valley civilization to survive the onslaught of the barbaric conquering Moslems. Sikhs own India and not just Khalistan." I mean how do you know? Do you speak to God? actually don't answer that, it will just make things worse, but you can see where I am coming from, your speaking for God............

.good question ! scan your body for a mo - and - tell me, what part resembles mum n what part resembles dad ? They've already reincarnated - as handsome H. Its you bro, which body you gonna move into ? Nanak wants to give you a spiritual body, that is, "nam dhan". But when you're read

uhm you didn't answer the question, I suppose my head does look a bit like a baby elephants butt now my hair has gone, but could you just answer the question?
 

Original

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I think that this texts can be used or not to prove that "Sikhism believes in reincarnation" depending on how one interprets the words "I" and "you" . If "I" means Simranjit, me, my counciousness which is independent and detached from others, then yes, it seems that the text is consistent with the hypotesis of reincarnation.
Simranjit,

Because God cannot be "objectively" tested but "subjectively" realized you cannot do lab tests on souls n data re reincarnation. The theory as I explained earlier is constructed to support an ideology, and since Sikhism is an ideology, reincarnation a theory, you cannot no matter what, find consistency in thought and understanding of the scriptures if you depart from the theory of reincarnation.
I'm finding it difficult to express and develop further my ideas.
Reincarnation for you is a "new life" [Sikh] and your next body is not physical but spiritual. Sikhi isn't carried in books, debates n discussions but in the hearts and minds of its believers. Believe therefore, in Simranjit and rise to meet your lover [God].
My dearest, do you not know why you're a Sikh and not another ? It is because you've been separated from your true love [Guru, shabd] all this time and now through Simranjit, will meet Him who resides within. All this slowly but surely, will be revealed.
As Harry does, I'd really like to ask you to explain more about how you think reincarnation works. I'm very interested.
..very simple ! you've always existed. Take a look, starting with your mum, nan, greatgrand nan and all the way back to the beginning of creation; who carried you forth to the body Ester ? And now, "ah ha" moment OMG I've been all those people [in part] separated through human exodus from my real self [simranjit]. Question for you is, what is the next vehicle that will carry my soul home ?
we are like waves of a vast ocean.
..would you deny beautiful Ester [wave] an independent, unique and autonomous existence on account having merged into this ocean ?
The waves would be "incarnations" or even "reincarnations" if with it means that the one incarnating once and again is the sea, not the individual waves...
..dispel with this kind of thinking because it's never ending and embrace moment of eternity, "love n live". Meditate on thyself and remove the veil of deception [mental excursions] and switch to spiritual heights. Speak truth, eat truth, sleep n side with truth and make truth your lover.

The ocean is but an aggregate of all rivers flowing in to it, be therefore the river and enjoy the journey. The journey that is unique, independent and above all, sublime.

More another time
 
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Original

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I can, and have provided links to respected people within the Sikh community that would disagree with you, I won't because it gets us nowhere, you will have to accept that the above is not the only way lauded by Sikhism.
..it is only fair that if I've erred or violated any of the scriptures I must be given the opportunity to have my say, make good, correct or take ownership and be justly weighed before you commit me to the fire ?
 

Harry Haller

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..it is only fair that if I've erred or violated any of the scriptures I must be given the opportunity to have my say, make good, correct or take ownership and be justly weighed before you commit me to the fire ?

strange, I have already admitted I laud Sikh principles but do not consider myself a Sikh, I have no theology, so I am not.

Therefore I am in no position to accuse anyone of violating anything, or indeed committing anyone to the fire, I ask you to clarify your position, and the position of Sikhism, you seem to struggle with fact that there may be differences.

To wit, I am not saying my way is correct, as I have no way, I merely respectfully ask you to explain yours, nothing more.
 

Original

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I laud Sikh principles
..so does an assassin laud Sikh principles in tracking down his target, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a desirable outcome, does it ?

I'm sorry, we've digressed from the OP - I'm happy to continue, maybe, under relevant heading ?
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Simranjit ji,

Guru Fateh.
ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਮਹਲ੝ ਪਾਵਹ੝ ਸ੝ਖ ਸਹਜੇ ਬਹ੝ਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਫੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
nij ghar mahal paavhu sukh sehjay bahur na ho-igo fayraa. ((3))
Within the home of your own inner being, you shall obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence with intuitive ease. You shall not be consigned again to the wheel of reincarnation. ((3))

It seems to support the idea of reincarnation.

The confusion lies in the understanding the difference between the acknowledgement of this ingrained belief in Hinduism which is based on caste system and its acceptance in Sikhi. One thing important to notice in this belief is that a Brahmin will always be reincarnated as Brahmin. The same is true for the low caste people who will never be able to step up on the ladder of the caste system.

The verse above shows the acknowledgement of the belief in Hinduism but rejects this very belief in Sikhism provided one follows the Sikhi path.

Secondly, the Shabad by Bhagat Ravi Das that Original posted in his post #18 says the same thing. Its translation has been distorted by Original, perhaps due to his lack of Gurmukhi skills or lack of his understanding of Gurbani, or both. One has to learn the history of Bhagat Ravi Das to understand what this low caste cobbler is trying to convey.

ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥ Page 694

Bahuṯ janam bicẖẖure the māḏẖa▫o ih janam ṯumĥāre lekẖe.

For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to You.

In a nutshell, Bhagat Ravi Das, who was born during the time of Guru Nanak is talking in the above verse how fed up he is with the belief in reincarnation because he would always be a cobbler no matter how many times he is reborn. Hence he is pleading with the One Source to help him get rid of this wretched belief.

So yes, Sikhism do believe in reincarnation [proofs in the pudding, hukamnama above] but not the same way as it did 500 years ago. Human civilisations once believed the Earth to be flat, is it flat [moot] ? Similarly, our forefathers believed in reincarnation with the mindset of that particular time in history. If that'd be correct, then whosoever, read, translate or interpret Gurbani must do so in light of the culture and the ideology prevalent at the time of its inception, meaning, reincarnation was part of a belief system [Sikh].

So, the above claim by @Original is not a Sikhi concept but a Hindu one which is not surprising because this kind of Hindu belief is not uncommon in Original's posts for some reason. His posts are filled with Hindutva sprinkled with some Sikhi here and there.

In fact, Original's claim here makes no sense and is rather self-contradictory.
"So yes, Sikhism do believe in reincarnation [proofs in the pudding, hukamnama above] but not the same way as it did 500 years ago."

As per Original's above claim, the belief in reincarnation has been diluting for 500 years. Sikhi started about 500 some years ago yet he fails to find the connection between the two, which is expected.

If reincarnation is accepted in the SGGS, our only Guru, as per @Original, then why would the belief be diluted because Gurbani can never be diluted?
Does he not believe in the SGGS, our only Guru, anymore?

I hope @Original would respond to these contradictions and why his lack of faith/belief in the SGGS, our only Guru, by claiming that people do not believe in our Guru's teachings so fervently as they did 500 years ago.

In closing, I would say that Sikhi does acknowledge this Hindu belief of reincarnation like it does many other beliefs from Hinduism and the Abrahamic religions but rejects it in Sikhi by giving us tools to get rid of carrying this cross for all our lives.
One thing worth repeating is that the acknowledgement of a belief in other religions is not acceptance of the same in Sikhi.

If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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Original

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Harkiran Kaur Ji

Your writing reflects your wisdom. You are an exalted personage within the spiritual sense of the word "wisdom". Post #12 says it all save few add-on's and it is to this end [add-on's] that I now venture, trusting you the reader to repose some confidence in my accuracy.
I used to think so once upon a time until I started to read quantum physics theories and saw some of the experiments for myself. It has become a scary fact to scientists that ‘consciousness’ not in the sense of being awake or unconscious in a physical sense but the primal awareness or being, what they term the observer (you) exists somewhere nonlocal in a quantum state.
...can we call it chance ? I mean the uncertainty principle ! This will then make sense when you read it in conjunction with SGGSJ.
The physical body is only a vehicle which that I AM is using
correct ! And, this I AM [Exodus 3:14] uses this physical body as a vehicle to experience the "subjective" sense of the self that we call "i am, me, my". So what we have is a big I AM [objective, absolute, God] manifesting in the small i am [subjective self, me, i, my, HKJ] to generate conscious experience [is moment, conscious observer] for otherwise there is no way of confirming the existence of the big I AM [Ekonkar, God].

Allow me to expand a little further !

This conscious observer is the mind [i am, self] and forever on the run thinking n believing this illusionary world to be the real world. Guru Ji is trying to pull him back and saying, this is not the real world, "hey mind, you're part of the whole and the whole is I AM" [441, SGGSJ].
In any case quantum physics has now shown that consciousness or an observer exists outside the physical
..of course it does ! Guru Ji on page 139, SGGSJ confirms it, thus: to see without eyes, hear without ears, walk without feet, speak without tongue. What does that tell you ? no body -more below*
When you die physically you won’t cease to exist.
...I beg to differ. Scientists explain that the self must be the collective property of the neurons in your brain, which have mostly stayed with you throughout life [current] and which will cease to exist after you die and hence, the reason you can't remember past life. This bundle of neurons have made a permanent home within your bodily frame that has given rise to a subjective sense of self-hood and labelled it HKJ. This HKJ bundle is so unique that it cannot occupy two places at the same time in any given space [as opposed to two events occurring at the same time in two different locations in space, hence, the prerequisite of a conscious observer], and therefore can only recall experiences which the bundle has gone through within that HKJ frame [body].
The body dies but the observer which is YOU
..the observer is I AM [alive forever]. The you, the HKJ was a human experience of the spiritual being that has no name, no shape and is beyond communication. We cannot ascribe any properties, qualities to something that IS an existence. It is inconceivable. If one was to write, it will be relative and not real.


It’s obvious to me that ‘conquering death while alive’ can only mean true knowledge that death is not the end.
..look what the mystic poet Rumi writes:

As long as you do not die while living
How will you obtain true benefit ?
Therefore, die and come out of your body.
You have died many times, yet still you remain behind the veil
For the method of dying you did not learn.

Lord Krishna says to Arjun: you have died many deaths before which you remember not' [Bhagvad Gita].

Once you know this, and understand the OBSERVER, knowing the state of your inner being, then death is conquered because you see that it was all a dream and you were the dreamer.
..death is conquered when you have mastered the art of dying. Paul say "I die daily" [I Corinthians 15:31]. Sikh spiritual [nam simran] is to that end where the soul learns to leave the body. The conscious mind having experienced an out of body existence soon learns to detach from physical phenomenon

* the shabd on page 139, SGGSJ goes on to say, 'speaking without tongue is dying while alive, O Nanak, realize this and meet the husband ' is testament to the death of the body and the survival of the soul. The subjective self [mind] needs to experience this in order to exit the wheel of 84.
















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sukhsingh

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I used to think so once upon a time until I started to read quantum physics theories and saw some of the experiments for myself. It has become a scary fact to scientists that ‘consciousness’ not in the sense of being awake or unconscious in a physical sense but the primal awareness or being, what they term the observer (you) exists somewhere nonlocal in a quantum state. The physical body is only a vehicle which that I AM is using. The brain is only a computer designed to help you navigate this world. Till date they can not find where memories are actually stored. Case in point, your brain like everything else in your body entirely regenerates (save for the neurons in the cerebral cortex) the neurons in rest of your brain regenerate. The cerebral cortex is not where memories are actually stored either by the way. Processing seems to begin in the prefrontal cortex, however that part of your brain right now, is NOT the same prefrontal cortex you had years ago. Every single cell has been changed out.

In any case quantum physics has now shown that consciousness or an observer exists outside the physical which must exist outside the physical, in order for the physical matter to even manifest. The experiments showed over and over that electrons behave as a wave otherwise and not something solid and tangible. (Ever hear of the philosophical question, if a tree falls in the forest... if there are no humans animals or insects there to witness it, did the forest even exist to have a tree which could fall?) or is reality painted through our memories and observation? Science is actually pointing to that fact! As a wave, an electron - all electrons - would not be something solid and tangible. There would be no matter. And the only thing which causes an electron to become a solid particle is conscious observation. In short, someone is watching. So who is that someone? Since our own conscious observation effects the outcome of the experiments our own consciousness must exist outside the confines of he physical - meaning our awareness must not be created BY the physical brain because the physical brain is made up of the same atoms which contain the same electrons which must be observed into existence. (Google the “measurement problem” and “double slit experiments”)

If all of our collective awarenesses or ‘I AM’ or the observer in all of us.. that only part of us which is truly who we are... the only part which exists outside of this physical manifestation is the primal being. It just IS. It is the part which is not created. In fact there is only ONE and that one is the same in ALL of us. Just like I tried to explain with a dream. In my dream i create everything, grass, the sun, characters but they are me even if I am seemingly observing only through one characters eyes. I created everything within my own consciousness and observe through one characters eyes at that moment but I really control them all, and when I wake up I realize it was a dream and that I was everything and everyone. The only part of me that was true in the dream was my I AM, my primal being or the observer. Formless consciousness created an entire world.

It’s true of this world also. And there is only one dreamer. So who exactly is transmigrating or reincarnating? When you die physically you won’t cease to exist. The body dies but the observer which is YOU will realize it was a dream and possibly go on creating new dreams. Formlessness and ONE is the base. Everything arises from ONEness. Consciousness creates matter in some beautiful play. Just like you create a dream world.

Ang 21

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਮਰਣੈ ਕੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਨਹੀ ਆਸ
Marṇai kī cẖinṯā nahī jīvaṇ kī nahī ās.
I have no anxiety about dying, and no hope of living.

ਤੂ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਹੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਸਾਸ ਗਿਰਾਸ
Ŧū sarab jī▫ā parṯipālahī lekẖai sās girās.
You are the Cherisher of all beings; You keep the account of our breaths and morsels of food.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤੂ ਵਸਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਨਿਰਜਾਸਿ ॥੧॥
Anṯar gurmukẖ ṯū vasėh ji▫o bẖāvai ṯi▫o nirjās. ||1||
You abide within the Gurmukh. As it pleases You, You decide our allotment. ||1||

ਜੀਅਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੁ
Jī▫are rām japaṯ man mān.
O my soul, chant the Name of the Lord; the mind will be pleased and appeased.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਜਲਿ ਬੁਝੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Anṯar lāgī jal bujẖī pā▫i▫ā gurmukẖ gi▫ān. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The raging fire within is extinguished; the Gurmukh obtains spiritual wisdom. ||1||Pause||

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਸੰਕ ਉਤਾਰਿ
Anṯar kī gaṯ jāṇī▫ai gur milī▫ai sank uṯār.
Know the state of your inner being; meet with the Guru and get rid of your skepticism.

ਮੁਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰੁ ਮਾਰਿ
Mu▫i▫ā jiṯ gẖar jā▫ī▫ai ṯiṯ jīvḏi▫ā mar mār.
To reach your True Home after you die, you must conquer death while you are still alive.

ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
Anhaḏ sabaḏ suhāvaṇe pā▫ī▫ai gur vīcẖār. ||2||
The beautiful, Unstruck Sound of the Shabad is obtained, contemplating the Guru. ||2||

ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ||
Anhaḏ baṇī pā▫ī▫ai ṯah ha▫umai ho▫e binās.
The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated.

ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਹਉ ਸਦ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੈ ਤਾਸੁ
Saṯgur seve āpṇā ha▫o saḏ kurbāṇai ṯās.
I am forever a sacrifice to those who serve their True Guru.

ਖੜਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪੈਨਾਈਐ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥੩॥
Kẖaṛ ḏargėh painā▫ī▫ai mukẖ har nām nivās. ||3||
They are dressed in robes of honor in the Court of the Lord; the Name of the Lord is on their lips. ||3||

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ
Ŧarihu guṇ banḏẖī ḏehurī jo ā▫i▫ā jag so kẖel.
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.

ਵਿਜੋਗੀ ਦੁਖਿ ਵਿਛੁੜੇ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਲਹਹਿ ਮੇਲੁ ॥੪॥
vijogī ḏukẖ vicẖẖuṛe manmukẖ lahėh na mel. ||4||
Those who separate themselves from the Lord wander lost in misery. The self-willed manmukhs do not attain union with Him. ||4||

ਮਨੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚ ਭੈ ਰਾਤਾ ਹੋਇ
Man bairāgī gẖar vasai sacẖ bẖai rāṯā ho▫e.
If the mind becomes balanced and detached, and comes to dwell in its own true home, imbued with the Fear of God,

ਗਿਆਨ ਮਹਾਰਸੁ ਭੋਗਵੈ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਭੂਖ ਹੋਇ
Gi▫ān mahāras bẖogvai bāhuṛ bẖūkẖ na ho▫e.
then it enjoys the essence of supreme spiritual wisdom; it shall never feel hunger again.

ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੁ ਭੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥੧੮॥
Nānak ih man mār mil bẖī fir ḏukẖ na ho▫e. ||5||18||
O Nanak, conquer and subdue this mind; meet with the Lord, and you shall never again suffer in pain. ||5||18||

It’s obvious to me that ‘conquering death while alive’ can only mean true knowledge that death is not the end. The body obviously dies. If we continue to think we are only the body then how can we truly contemplate what it means to exist beyond it? Once you know with full understanding that YOU are NOTA just a body, then you have conquered death because you know it’s just part of the same illusion. You gain spiritual wisdom. The ‘true home’ is beyond the physical, it’s the primal formless ONEness and being. The understanding of how reality works, union of Shiva and Shakthi (creation and destruction) of consciousness and matter. Gurbani already gave us the same knowledge that the quantum physics experiments mentioned above only learned hundreds of years later. That there is an intrinsic relation where consciousness is a catalyst of creation and destruction of matter (the very fabric of physical reality). Once you know this, and understand the OBSERVER, knowing the state of your inner being, then death is conquered because you see that it was all a dream and you were the dreamer.

So no I don’t believe in soul jumping as traditional reincarnation or transmigration says... but yes I do believe in existence beyond the physical.
I fully agree that.. I believe that their is a transference of energy but not soul in the popular understanding of the word
 

Harkiran Kaur

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I fully agree that.. I believe that their is a transference of energy but not soul in the popular understanding of the word

Rather the energy/soul IS Waheguru... that energy is aware, that energy IS you (and me and everyone). You won’t cease to exist.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Of course HK will cease to exist. But I AM not HKJ. No more than I was an archeologist last night named Samantha running through the Amazon in my dream. I have already accepted that HKJ is only one costume I have worn or will wear (ang 736) By the way in the out of body state you do remember. It’s more like when you wake up and remember it was a dream but you do remember the dream. People have experienced out of body experiences in this life.

...I beg to differ. Scientists explain that the self must be the collective property of the neurons in your brain, which have mostly stayed with you throughout life [current] and which will cease to exist after you die and hence, the reason you can't remember past life. This bundle of neurons have made a permanent home within your bodily frame that has given rise to a subjective sense of self-hood and labelled it HKJ. This HKJ bundle is so unique that it cannot occupy two places at the same time in any given space [as opposed to two events occurring at the same time in two different locations in space, hence, the prerequisite of a conscious observer], and therefore can only recall experiences which the bundle has gone through within that HKJ frame [body].


.
 

Original

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I fully agree that.. I believe that their is a transference of energy but not soul in the popular understanding of the word
Sukh,
Energy is too wide; kinetic, gravitational, molecular, etc etc. Becasue of our rational nature we've classified things in various categorises n groups: cows in cowsheds, horses in stables, pigs in pigsties, n so forth. Logic dictates that in order to discern the form from the substance we must label them respectively. For example, Sukh is a man, but so are Harry n Kully. They are not exactly alike, but have something in common and this something in common is their "form"[{censored}s, genitalia]. Whatever might be distinctive, individual belongs to their "substance" part, that is, they all love Original. In this regard, philosophers from antiquity have divided the human into four dimensions: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. And it is to this spiritual part that they've pigeonholed the soul part so that arguments can accordingly be had under this heading.
 

Harry Haller

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Sukh,
Energy is too wide; kinetic, gravitational, molecular, etc etc. Becasue of our rational nature we've classified things in various categorises n groups: cows in cowsheds, horses in stables, pigs in pigsties, n so forth. Logic dictates that in order to discern the form from the substance we must label them respectively. For example, Sukh is a man, but so are Harry n Kully. They are not exactly alike, but have something in common and this something in common is their "form"[{censored}s, genitalia]. Whatever might be distinctive, individual belongs to their "substance" part, that is, they all love Original. In this regard, philosophers from antiquity have divided the human into four dimensions: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. And it is to this spiritual part that they've pigeonholed the soul part so that arguments can accordingly be had under this heading.
Originalji,

I am not a {censored}s, and I don't love you,

regards
 

Original

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Of course HK will cease to exist. But I AM not HKJ. No more than I was an archeologist last night named Samantha running through the Amazon in my dream. I have already accepted that HKJ is only one costume I have worn or will wear (ang 736) By the way in the out of body state you do remember. It’s more like when you wake up and remember it was a dream but you do remember the dream. People have experienced out of body experiences in this life.
Beautiful princess,

If you don't learn to come out of your body how can you meet Nanak's Nirankar ? Reading of scriptures, philosophising and all the rest don't mean a thing unless n until you meet Nanak's "govind". Check out page 378, SGGSJ where Guru Sahib is saying, " hey Harkiran, this body is given to you by God who lives within n without. Meet him without [outside] so that you'd be able to recognise Him when you die for good".

This is what sets Sikhi apart and makes it "unique" !

Keep a diary n record your out of body excursions. The more you record the more you'll have, unless, external forces n factors beyond your control jeopardises them.
 
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sukhsingh

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Beautiful princess,

If you don't learn to come out of your body how can you meet Nanak's Nirankar ? Reading of scriptures, philosophising and all the rest don't mean a thing unless n until you meet Nanak's "govind". Check out page 378, SGGSJ where Guru Sahib is saying, " hey Harkiran, this body is given to you by God who lives within n without. Meet him without [outside] so that you'd be able to recognise Him when you die for good".

This is what sets Sikhi apart and makes it "unique" !

Keep a diary n record your out of body excursions. The more you record the more you'll have, unless, external forces n factors beyond your control jeopardises them.
I'm sorry but it all sounds like a load of codswallop
 

Original

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I love jovial banter, perhaps we could do that once you have addressed my lost post, I feel rather left out, is it cos I am a man?
It's always a pleasure chatting to you H, but now with advanced souls on board, I feel obliged to be more careful not to go off-topic. Thanks to Harkiran, she's reined us in again let us help develop the discussion further.

Love you
 
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