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Trouble Between Religions

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Re: Troubled between Religions

Lest we forget -- this is the commentary by Gyani ji that is the context for your/my comments.

Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
GURMATT of Guur Nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
If we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences...




Key: Black is quotes from my last reply which she reply's to.
Blue Kaurji's reply to quotes, Red text is my reply to the blue reply. Now I am green.

"Let's look at the other portions of your comments
Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself "


Who "created" it if Guru Nanak did not?
Gupti bani pargat hoi. Gurbani is Aadh such/Jugadh such/Habai such. Always existed. Guru Nanak dev ji "pargat" Gurbani Akal purakh ki for everyone.
Of course it always existed - however Guru Nanak gave voice to it in a time when many had forgotten that it existed. So in the instrumental sense he created it. Where does Gyani deny that? He does not. He indicates that Sikhi is different from other religions.

Who said his "inspiration did not/does not originate from the Sat?
Not only is it inspiration from Sat but is Sat in whole itself. It's puran bani, The original, not something new.

What is your point? Where does Gyani say Gurbani is not pooran?

Or are we arguing that Guru Nanak's Banee was found in a mystical moment under a rock and it was marked with the signature of God,

Guru Nanak ji recieved Bhani from DHur/Suchkhand, instead of under a rock. It's not only marked by signature of God, it is Bani of God himself.

What again is your point? Who said otherwise? You are the master of straw=man arguments. :whisling::whisling::whisling:

Anyone who gets on the "Jahaz" ship of bani will reach sachkhand. Only with His Grace.

on loan for Guru Nanak to share with humanity - or some kind of Indiana Jones story like that?


Kabir ji says "Gur Dini kabir ko, Kabir dini jis mastak bhag"Nothing in Gursikhi is loan or earned, its daan/daat, Given to Guru Nanak Dev ji.

Who said not? If anything one is saying -- no! it is not learned or earned but graced. Straw-man argument again . :whisling:


"It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting."

Guru Bani is the Guru's Banee and Guru matth is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani and the Guru matth is found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Guru Bani is the Guru's Bannee which Guru recieved from Sachkhand/Dhur, is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani, bani of nirankar, and the Guru Mathh is what entire Shri Guru Granth Sahib consists of. You are repeating yourself. So therefore I have no need to repeat myself.

Anyone who chooses otherwise is following some other mattth, as a member of some other panth, which they are quite free to do.


Plz define what you mean by otherwise. Seems like your repeated what I said in different context.

Sant mat, quranic mat, kabbalistic mat, and so forth.

"To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand"

One thing that begins to strike me here is that you may be reifying sachkhand -- do you think it is a geographical location, or planetary perchance? :eek:

And your point is? :)
Point being, Giani Jarnail Singh ji states that Gurbani is brand new approach and is not about joinin/uniting other religions. In answer to which I stated my opinion: Gurbani has always existed, does exist and will always exist, nothing brand new. Gurbani diminishes/erases/transcends petty differences between races/religions etc and is "sanjhi" for all humankind. Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji are Jagat/world guru. Guru Bani guru, guru hai bani, Goes for everyone.

Depends completely as I said above on your context for devotion. If you are a Sikh -- Gurbani is Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- not the Vedas, the Quran, the Bible, the Kabbalah. Though there may be ideas in common, there are also ideas that are dramatically divergent. Including the nature of God. Including the way one relates to God. Including the relationship of God with Creation. Including the way one prays. Including what to pray for/about. Do not oversimplify in the interests of creating ONENESS. Uniformity and Unity are not the same. :):):):):):):):):) The move to ONENESS always makes me suspicious -- as if someone is trying to undermine someone else's beliefs.


This is always fun. If possible, keep quotes in original order posted.

It is always amusing ....
 

Josh martin

SPNer
Jul 8, 2009
72
14
sacramento, CA
Lest we forget -- this is the commentary by Gyani ji that is the context for your/my comments. [/quote
Yes, lets make him the scapegoat.

Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
GURMATT of Guur Nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
If we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences...
[/quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh martin
Key: Black is quotes from my last reply which she reply's to.
Blue Kaurji's reply to quotes, Red text is my reply to the blue reply. Now I am green.
[/quote

"Let's look at the other portions of your comments
Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself "

Who "created" it if Guru Nanak did not?
Gupti bani pargat hoi. Gurbani is Aadh such/Jugadh such/Habai such. Always existed. Guru Nanak Dev ji "pargat" Gurbani Akal purakh ki for everyone.
Of course it always existed - however Guru Nanak gave voice to it in a time when many had forgotten that it existed. So in the instrumental sense he created it. Where does Gyani deny that? He does not. He indicates that Sikhi is different from other religions.
[/quote

By voicing, he delivered it, not created it. "Haon apa bol na janha, sab kaheya hukmai jio". In 10 jama of Guru Gobind singh ji, Shiri Guru Nanak dev ji states " Jo hum ko Permasher ucher hay, So narak jon meh pur hey" Guru ji calls himself sevak/lowly/nobody and connects us with Akal Purakh.


Who said his "inspiration did not/does not originate from the Sat?
Not only is it inspiration from Sat but is Sat in whole itself. It's puran bani, The original, not something new.
What is your point? Where does Gyani say Gurbani is not pooran?
[/quote

This lil note "who says....sat" is added by you and my response was to your note.


Or are we arguing that Guru Nanak's Banee was found in a mystical moment under a rock and it was marked with the signature of God,
Guru Nanak ji recieved Bhani from DHur/Suchkhand, instead of under a rock. It's not only marked by signature of God, it is Bani of God himself.
What again is your point? Who said otherwise? You are the master of straw=man arguments.
WHISTLIN.GIF
WHISTLIN.GIF
WHISTLIN.GIF
[/quote

*blushes* you said "who creaeted gurbani if Guru Nanak did not. or are we arguing.... sig of God"
I state that Guru Ji recieved Bani from Dhur, vs created it.

Anyone who gets on the "Jahaz" ship of bani will reach sachkhand. Only with His Grace. Bolo ji Waheguru.


on loan for Guru Nanak to share with humanity - or some kind of Indiana Jones story like that?

Kabir ji says "Gur Dini kabir ko, Kabir dini jis mastak bhag"Nothing in Gursikhi is loan or earned, its daan/daat, Given to Guru Nanak Dev ji.
Who said not? If anything one is saying -- no! it is not learned or earned but graced. Straw-man argument again .
WHISTLIN.GIF
[/quote

Graced aka given/daan/dat not created.



"It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting."
Guru Bani is the Guru's Banee and Guru matth is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani and the Guru matth is found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
Guru Bani is the Guru's Bannee which Guru recieved from Sachkhand/Dhur, is the Guru's Wisdom, and for Guru Sikhs the Guru Bani, bani of nirankar, and the Guru Mathh is what entire Shri Guru Granth Sahib consists of. You are repeating yourself. So therefore I have no need to repeat myself.
[/quote

The difference is the underline text, "recieved from Sachkahnd/Dhur etc.


Anyone who chooses otherwise is following some other mattth, as a member of some other panth, which they are quite free to do.

Plz define what you mean by otherwise. Seems like your repeated what I said in different context.
Sant mat, quranic mat, kabbalistic mat, and so forth.
[/quote

Raam jo data naam ko, Sant Japave naam. Tu santan ka sant tere.


"To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand"
One thing that begins to strike me here is that you may be reifying sachkhand -- do you think it is a geographical location, or planetary perchance?
eek.gif
[/quote
SachKhand/Dhur is where gupti bani resides and brought to us by Guru Nanak dev ji, note;not created anew as a Brand new approach.

And your point is?
smile.gif

Point being, Giani Jarnail Singh ji states that Gurbani is brand new approach and is not about joinin/uniting other religions. In answer to which I stated my opinion: Gurbani has always existed, does exist and will always exist, nothing brand new. Gurbani diminishes/erases/transcends petty differences between races/religions etc and is "sanjhi" for all humankind. Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji are Jagat/world guru. Guru Bani guru, guru hai bani, Goes for everyone.
Depends completely as I said above on your context for devotion. If you are a Sikh -- Gurbani is Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- not the Vedas, the Quran, the Bible, the Kabbalah. Though there may be ideas in common, there are also ideas that are dramatically divergent. Including the nature of God. Including the way one relates to God. Including the relationship of God with Creation. Including the way one prays. Including what to pray for/about. Do not oversimplify in the interests of creating ONENESS. Uniformity and Unity are not the same.
smile.gif
The move to ONENESS always makes me suspicious -- as if someone is trying to undermine someone else's beliefs.
[/quote

I said gurbani is sanjhi as in In Gurbani Guruji teach Muslims how to be muslims, pundits how to be a pundit, this quote which you so heartly like
"So pundit jo mun probodeh, ram nam atam meh sodeh",
baisno, jati, jogi, sikhs, etc. Gurbani is the original Mool of everything and is sanjhi updesh for everyone. It's not newly created or seprate.


This is always fun. If possible, keep quotes in original order posted.

It is always amusing ....[/quote
I should be getting paid for this :welcome:
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
No you shouldn't be paid for persisting with a line of argument that you yourself instigated.

Back to the thread. Gyani ji said as follows:
Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh
Kaur ji..not right on both accounts..sorry to say..
GURMATT of Guur Nanak ji is a Completely DIFFERENT APPROACH towards MERGER with the CREATOR.
Gurmatt is NOT baout joining/uniting existing religions...its a Completley NEW APPROACH..a BRAND NEW approach.
If we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...and compare with the Bible.koran and other books we will quickly see the vast differences...

He said that Guru Nanak ji gives a Gurmatt that is a completely different approach toward merger with the creator. He said nothing about creating bani. You have built your entire diatribe around that point. However, on continued questioning your comments have dwindled down to dispute on that single notion. Here is what you said. If I may insert my opinion. Gurmatt wasn't of Guru Nanak ji's. Its Dhur ki bhani ayi, being so its the original approach. If it was something Guru Nanak ji created himself It would be new. Gurbani is the matt of Nirankar himself thus always orignal and everlasting. To go in lil more detail, Gurbani is Nirankar's/DHur ki bani which came Via Gurujis from Dhur/suchkhand.


So you are the one who "created" the issue of whether Gurmatt is new by making it contingent on whether Guru Nanak "created" it. He created something new. I have posted to follow an essay that reviews the elements of Sikhism that are likely to be misunderstood, misapplied, and misinterpreted in the interests of telling the panth of Guru Nanak that they don't know who their Guru is or how Guruji got to be their Guru. And why it is completely different

Next up
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Sikhism A Faith Misunderstood Published by drkhalsa
10-12-2004
Sikhism A Faith Misunderstood
Misunderstanding regarding the principles, concepts and philosophy of a religion exists, usually not only in the minds of those who are not members of it but also in the minds of those who profess to be its true followers, or even champions and preachers of that faith. In case of Sikhism this is particularly so. Most of what is said, followed and preached by majority of the Sikhs about Sikhism, cannot be considered a part of the Sikh faith, rather some of it is anti-Sikhism. We have developed our own interpretation of Sikhism by watching the behavior and actions of political and religious leaders which quite often may not agree with the principles of the faith. Unless all the notions so formed, are taken out of our mind. Sikhism cannot be understood in its true perspective as preached and practiced by the Gurus. To properly understand this article the reader is, therefore, requested to forget, at least temporarily, all the ideas about Sikhism he has already formed in his mind.
Because of the new thoughts given by the "learned Sikhs" original concepts of Sikhism as delivered by Guru Nanak, have been diluted, discolored and sometimes deliberately misinterpreted. If this is allowed to happen for sometime more, Sikhism, like Hinduism will, become undefinable. Hinduism cannot be regarded as distinct, definite religion. As understood today, Hinduism has become a culture. It has many mixed together under one common name. this faith has more than one independent and sometimes contradictory concepts. Idolatry is valued high and practiced regularly by some Hindus while others have not just given it up but are vehemently opposed to it. People who kill cow and people who worship cow, both claim to be Hindus. Some gods need the sacrifice of animals, others advise Ahinsa Parmo dharma. If one is an Indian and non Muslim, or a Christian, he can be broadly classified as a Hindu.
Sikhism as well, like any other faith, has been given new interpretations intentionally, or unintentionally. this happened even during the Gurus' period. At that time any corruption in the faith was emphatically rejected even if it meant discarding the sons and near relatives of the Gurus. The purity of the faith was maintained at every cost.
Today, Hinduism has about three dozen Bhagwans each claiming to be the God-incarnate (not just sent by God) which obviously cannot be correct. There are today more than 250 answers to the question of 'What is Christianity'? Rather more serious, is the case with Islam in which there are fundamental differences, one sect is not ready to consider the other as a believer of the faith. Many killings have taken place because of the differences in deciding what Islam is and what it is not. In the near future, the Sikh "Saints" and the modern scholars along with political leaders will make, rather they have already made to a great extent, Sikhism too a hotch-potch of many self-contradictory beliefs and principles.
Sikhs believe that the tenth Nanak passed on the Guruship to the Adi Granth as eternal Shabad Guru. A very small minority, however, believers that Baba Ram Singh was nominated as the 11th Guru. Therefore, this nomination is going on in the same family as an ancestral right today. They do not take Amrit as done by the first category who believe in the Guruship of the Adi Granth. If rituals are any indication of the religion, these Sikhs are orthodox Hindus with Keshas. They have the faith in the Adi Granth not as a Guru but as a book.
Quite a few other sects have also emerged which claim to be the followers of Guru Nanak, even when they have little regard for the Gurbani written by the Gurus. They mis-quote some sections of it to justify their own 'revised' interpretation of the faith. Outwardly they keep the appearance of Sikhs but the faith and rituals they preach and the spiritual path they describe to perceive God, have nothing common with that mentioned in the Adi Granth, call them cheats. They feel Sikh appearance by such fake 'Gurus' is being kept to catch the un-wary Sikhs into their net while preaching everything against Sikhism.
It is noted with regret that historically, these so called 'Gurus' began as "preachers" of Sikhism. When they were accused of distorting the original concept they debated and tried to prove their description to be the genuine faith. Later on, when their identity was well established; they took advantage of the political situation and constitutional rights, and disconnected themselves from their Sikh base and started claiming themselves to be the founders and preachers of a new faith. They no more call themselves Sikhs and have adopted new names. This has resulted in mutual fights and quarrels, one protecting the original faith, the other trying to destroy it to establish itself.
Popular concept-its analysis
Those who have written about Sikhism, can be grouped into distinct categories. One group believes that Sikhism is another sect of Hinduism and they think that Sikhs are Hindus with 'Keshas'. Others feel that Sikhism is that modern version of Hinduism which excludes orthodox and dogmatic approaches of the faith. The Western writers and many Indians too, however, feel that it is the resultant effect of Islam and Hinduism inter-acting together. They base their conclusion on the thesis that some of the rituals/principles of the Sikh faith agree with Islam (belief in one God, rejection of Idols) and others agree with Hindu faith (soul migration, marriage, death and birth ceremonies). Some people who keep the Sikh philosophy in mind rather than rituals followed by Sikhs observe that Sikhism is very near Islam less the fanaticism which was shown by the Muslim rulers. People very favorable to Sikhism have written that Guru Nanak picked up the good points both from Hinduism and Islam and named the combination of these as Sikhism.
The author feels all these views originate from the ignorance about the birth of Sikhism, its development in Punjab and its further progress in the whole if India, rather the whole world. To consider Sikhism as another faith is not acceptable to this writer, who believes Sikhism is not one more addition to the long lists of faiths in God, the principals of the faith and the practices suggested for a Sikh, one cannot help to recognize that Sikhism does not belong to the class of the existing religions. It is a class by itself and fundamentally different from all existing religions.
When observed superficially some of the practices and beliefs may appear to be already existing in one or the other faith, but when studied thoroughly, these would be found having a different meaning from that given to them earlier by some other faith. Sikhism, therefore, cannot be placed on the same platform as other religions, it has to be given a new platform, a new place, a different place.
Let us study some beliefs common on Sikhism and other religions to explain this point. Hindus burn their dead and the Muslims bury them. The practice of burning their dead by Sikhs cannot be said to have been taken from Hinduism because the faith behind the action is totally different. Sikhism believes all practices, burning, burying, throwing in the water or any other method of disposing of the dead body equally good. These practices do neither any benefit nor any harm to the soul. This means Sikh adopt these methods without assigning any religious sanctity to these rituals which is not the case with other religions.
Similarly, in case Sikhs bury their dead it is not because Muslims do it. The same action is based again in a different philosophy. The latter do it because if the body is put on fire, the soul goes to hell, while the former do it, because it is a convenient method of disposing of the dead body. If the Sikhs throw their dead in the river to be consumed by the water life, the practice has not been taken from the Parsis who throw their dead to the vultures. All this proves that even when the same ritual is followed by Sikh it does not have the same meaning as in Hinduism or Islam.
If in Sikhism a particular spiritual thought, is same or similar to that of another religion, it is not an adoption from that religion because conceptually the two are different. The belief in only one God (not in many gods as in Hinduism) and non-worship of idols, have not been taken from the Muslim faith because the philosophy behind these practices is totally different in the two cases. According to the Muslim faith, a person becomes a believer in one God only if he embraces Islam otherwise he is a non-believer even when he holds a strong and sincere faith in God. According to this philosophy there must be two Gods, one for the Muslims and the other for the non-Muslims. This fact will be explained later. Here the purpose of stating this is that even with the same of similar rituals faith existing in Sikhism as in other religions, they cannot be made as a basis for concluding that Sikhism has been founded by taking good points both from Hinduism and Islam. It is a fundamentally new approach to the religion.
After this rather long introduction, I would like to state some fundamental beliefs of Sikhism.
God
Each faith of a sect has a name given to the Creator, the Almighty i.e. God, Father Allah, Ram, Gobind, Krishan ect. But any and every name for the Supreme power is accepted in Sikhism. The Adi Granth (uniquely the ever-existing Shabad Guru, not just a religion book) which enunciates the fundamentals of the Sikh faith contains all these and more names of God. It is emphatically asserted that Ram (God of Hindus) and Rahim (God of Muslims) is the same Power/Authority. According to the Adi Granth, therefore, there cannot be two religions, Puran (Hindus) and Quran (Islam) but only one religion, as there is only one God for the whole humanity. In addition to Ram, Rahim and Puram Quran, some more corresponding terms of the two religions have been so used as to depict a very close association between them through their similar rhythm. For example, "Baid" (Veda) and "Ktaib," the former meaning all Indian religious books and the latter meaning all books of the Western faith (Quran, Bible, Toroth Zachariah).
According to Sikhism there is no particular place specifically reserved and furnished for the abode of God like "Puri", seventh sky, ect. He lives in every one's, heart, black of white, eastern or western, low caste or high caste, good or bad, rich or poor.
The Adi Granth not only describes the existence of the all prevailing God, but it offers strong proof of the same. If more than one person independently observes a particular fact, it is regarded as a reality. There are many authors (out of which only 7 in addition to Nanak have been referred to later in this article) who belonged to different places, practiced different methods of worship, were born in different castes, suffered socially low status or enjoyed very high respects in the society but made the same observation "God lives in everybody, you love man if you want to love God."
Sikhism defined
The faith Guru Nanak possessed, preached and initiated humanity into, is that there is only one God, the whole universe is just a manifestation of it and he is therefore, everywhere and in every soul. That is why, Guru Nanak decried the divisions of humanity on any basis, religion, caste or color.
His first lesson, was "Neither there is any Hindu nor a Muslim" implying thereby that there cannot be two or more religions, there is only one God hence there can be only one religion. Though, born in a Hindu Khatri family, he refused to wear the sacred thread and he had no hesitation to go to a mosque for prayers because the God he 'saw' was not imprisoned in a temple. This shook the whole society. He went to Mecca (a place of Muslim worship) and Hardwar (a place of Hindu worship) to preach the same truth-give up the distinction of being a Hindu or a Muslim-all of us are human beings, we have no other religion than that.
He also demolished all the dividing walls of the four Varan-Ashrams in Hindu society. Brahmin and Sudra were not different. Birth in Brahmin family, does not make a person of higher, spiritual merit and being a Sudra does not deprive him of it.
He did not stop here. He challenged the status of Sanskrit as the language of gods and the elite. Sanskrit, he asserted, is no more sacred than Persian of any other language. He preached, that language of God is love, every human being can express it in Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Persian, Bengali, Gujrati, English or any other he knows. The people who believed that Sanskrit is the language of gods or Arabic is the language of Allah, found it difficult to agree with Nanak but the 'love' for all won him the place of honor and respect from all places of worship, both Hindu and Muslim.
Practising Sikhism
Was this all, the Guru did? No. He not only described this new faith, but also explained it and practiced it. To inculcate the feeling of oneness, he made all the people sit together as Sangat (a group of comrades). A Sudra and a Brahmin, a king and a beggar, a Muslim and a Hindu, all would sit together in a Sangat and sing the praise of the same God. When Guru Nanak expired people did not know, to which faith he belonged. Both Hindus and Muslims loved him, respected him and accepted him as their Guru but he was neither a Hindu nor a Muslim. He laid firm foundations of the new faith, the followers of which were known as students (Shish or Sikh) of truth. Having failed to label him as a Muslim or a Hindu, both raised memorials at the same place (Kartarpur on the right bank of the Ravi where he breathed his last) in his honour.
Was he dead? No; he is living even today. A unique principle he preached was, that not his body but the Words-"Shabad" said by him, are to be valued and respected as living Guru. His words (Gurbani, Adi Granth) are with us and would ever be. Therefore, he would continue to guide humanity to the right path as long as it cares to understand him and follow his teachings.
The first lesson of "Sangat" was followed by the second lesson of "Pangat"-eating together. As this would finish the caste barriers of the Hindu faith, high caste people complained against this "anti-Dharam" activity of the Guru (3rd Nanak) to the king Akbar who rejected their petition when he was told details of the Sikh faith by Bhai Jetha ji (later on 4th Nanak).
" Baoli"-a common source of water and "Sarovar" (Amritsar) the sacred bathing tank, were the next practical steps for totally removing the sectarian or narrow communal feelings from the minds of the people. All this was crowned by welcoming Mian Mir, a Muslim by name and rituals but a Sikh by faith, to lay the foundation stone of the world famous Sikh Shrine, The Golden Temple, in the center of the Amrit Sarovar, now in the city named Amritsar in Punjab, India.
Another big step was taken by the fifth Nanak, who compiled the Adi Granth to be placed in the Golden Temple. It contained the writings of not only of the Gurus but also of many other persons who 'saw' the God living everywhere and in everyone, high and low, rich and poor. The first Nanak during his travels in India and abroad had collected their writings i.e. 'bani' or "shabad".
Why did the fifth Nanak do so? Why did he bring them at par with the Gurus? Were the writings of the Gurus not sufficient to give the guidelines of the faith preached by them? Inclusion of the writings of the persons was deliberate and had a deeper significance. It was to give a proof that anyone with any 'faith,' any caste, any place, who sincerely worships Him, will realize Him and find Him in ever heart. through this unique step, it was declared and preached that it is absurd to say that there is only one particular name of the God and there is only one particular method of worship to realize Him of find Him and reach Him. It was to be taught emphatically to all that any name and say method is right if there is sincerity behind the action and it is wrapped in pious love. The experiences of those seekers who "found" Him, were recorded for eternity in the Adi Granth. It must be taken not of that these persons were born in different religions, were of different castes and adopted different rituals but realized (experienced) the existence of the same God everywhere and in everyone. Here is what, a few of them whose writings are included in the Adi Granth, have said:
1. Rama Nanda was a Gaur Brahmin, Vaishanava. When he perceived the existence of the God in all and everywhere, he questioned the validity of outward rituals and announced "I need go nowhere. I have realized that all pervading god in my own heart as well" [Page 1195]
2. Kabir who was never weaver and brought up under Muslim environment spoke the same thing "God has created all beings from the same source and He Himself is existing in all of them and everywhere" [Page 1349]
3. Namdev was Maharashtrian calico-printer. Through sincere devotion he too reached the same stage of spiritual attainment-"In every body, there is the same God who speaks. Who else than God can be there to speak in every person?" [Page 988 ]
4. Sheikh Farid a Muslim who followed all Mohammedan rituals advises us: "If you want to love God, do not injure the feelings of any-one because He resides in everybody"[Page 1384 ]
5. Bhikhan another Muslim devotee also came to the same conclusion and said "Wherever I see, It is He Who is there" [page 659 ]
6. Ravidass : a cobbler, Sudra by caste, when he attained the stage of God-realization, even the Brahmins fell at his feet. He also came to the same conclusion "There is no second or third, it is the same God Himself everywhere" [Page 345 ]
7. Pipa a Raja and a disciple of Rama Nand has his own way of expressing the same feelings. "The God which prevails in the whole universe also resides in my own heart too. Anyone who search Him will find Him." [Page 695 ]
According to the Adi Granth, therefore there is one God and one humanity, hence only one religion. The Creator can be given any name-Allah, Ram, Gobind, Wahe-Guru, Hari, Krishan, God. Followers of this faith as stated earlier go the popular name, Shish (Sikh) which means a student (a disciple) of spirituality, Sikhism, therefore, is not communal in the narrow sense like some other religions and can be named as Humanism.
Some persons preach the philosophy that all religions are good. No, this is not acceptable to a Sikh. He would not accept any religion to be good if it believes a person to be low or high because of his birth. The distinction of being a Brahmin or Sudra by birth is against the basic tenets of Sikh faith. A man is as he behaves and not as he is born. Any one who loves Brahma (God) is a Brahmin even if he was born in any of the so called low-castes. Any faith which divides humanity on any basis, colour, caste or religion cannot be agreed to be a good religion.
Another fact which distinguishes it fundamentally from other religions is that they claim that their founders were specially sent by God' as Avtar/Prophet or His son. A follower of these must observe all the rituals prescribed by that guide and must utter a particular word, only then the prophet (the Avtar) will help him to obtain salvation. Sikhism is basically opposite to it. It simply tells ANYONE who loves human beings irrespective to their faith, (Hindu, Muslim, or Christian) birth (caste), social status, education (learned pandit or illiterate) and remembers Him with sincere mind would attain salvation/realize God. Sikhism does not make it obligatory for a devotee to accept a particular prophet to have been sent by God to save him and take his sins on himself.
By now, the reader would appreciate the ideas that Sikhism is not just another faith like so many other faiths. It is a catholic faith for the whole humanity. Anyone who studies Adi Granth in depth, will reach, this conclusion. H.L. Bradshaw has thus highlighted this unique aspect of the new faith:
"Sikhism is a Universal world faith-with a message for all men. This is amply illustrated in the writings of the Gurus. Sikhs must cease to think of their Faith as "just another good religion" and must begin to think in terms of SIKHISM being the religion for this New Age....... The religion preached by Guru Nanak is the faith of the New Age. It completely supplants and fulfills all the former dispensations or older religions. Books must be written proving this. THE OTHER RELIGIONS CONTAIN TRUTH BUT SIKHISM CONTAINS THE FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH........"
Bradshaw has found many more valuable things in the Guru Granth Sahib. he continues "Guru Granth Sahib of all the world religious scriptures were all concerned only with this world and its spiritual counterpart. To imply that they spoke of other worlds as does the Guru Granth Sahib, is to stretch their obvious meanings out of context. The Sikh religion is truly the answer to the problems of Modern Man."
Who is a Sikh?
A Sikh is not he who knows all about the principles and philosophy of Sikhism, and can scholarly explain it and effectively preach it. To be a Sikh, is to act according to his faith which may mean sacrificing all the comforts, wealth and even one's life. After giving the philosophy of the faith, the 10th Nanak wanted volunteers who would accept the faith in toto i.e. not just believe in it but live up to it. The first five who offered their lives for it, were initiated into it, and called Panj Piaras-The Five Beloved Ones. Others followed them and were collectively designated as the Khalsa. The responsibility given to them, in today's terminology, would be Honorary Army of the United Nations for the rule of Truth and love for the whole humanity. Five symbols ("Kachah", a special type of underwear; "Kara", wrist iron ring; "Kirpan," sword; "Kesh," un-cut hair; "Kanga," comb) were given to them for having been initiated into this army.
The history is filled with numerous examples, when the Sikhs gladly underwent un-told sufferings and sacrificed themselves just to uphold the principles that all humanity is one. They would help the poor and even die for them irrespective of their religion, or caste (because the Sikhs believed that God lived in their hearts too). Guru Teg Bahadur did not offer his head because the Hindu Dharm was in danger because a tyrant was making innocent people suffer an inhuman oppression. He would have done the same thing if a Hindu king had committed atrocities on the Muslims. Did not Guru Nanak sympathize with the innocent Muslim Pathans who suffered when Mughal King Babar attacked Punjab? Did not Guru Gobind Singh help Bahadur Shah, son (the rightful heir of Delhi Kingdom) of Aurangzeb against his younger son who tried to get the kingdom by force. One can understand the greatness of Guru Gobind Singh only if he remembers that Aurangzeb killed not only his father, his sons but also his large number of Sikhs. The Guru still struck to his principles-Help those who are in need of it and deserve it.
Now to conclude, it can be said safely, without any fear of contradiction that Guru Nanak laid the foundation of a non-sectarian, universal faith for the whole humanity, not just another religion. Unfortunately, those who claim to follow it, have mis-understood it and describe it only as modern religion or at the most a happy blend of what is good in Hinduism and Islam. Further it has been limited to the rituals of doing or not doing something and eating or not eating certain foods. it is limited sometimes to the identity (5 K's) given to the followers which is to express their conviction in the faith and not faith itself. Sikhism cannot be confined to these narrow bounds. It is not just a new religion; it is a way of life for the new man-the man who believes all men are brethren and children of the same God and its mission is to work for the welfare of all and when the occasion demands to sacrifice his all for this ideal.​

__________________
PrIdw kwl^ØI ijnI n rwivAw DaulI rwvY koie ]

Against the backdrop of his day IMHO everything Guru Nanak preached was new. These were all new ideas. It represents a new world view.

 

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  • There are 2 shabads and some other interesting information related to the thread topic on this blog Which Heaven? Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog
  • I encourage you to read them.
  • And another perspective and on the topic of the thread - Here the angle is slightly different - "Thus, Gurmat is the only path to Sach Khand, i.e. merging with God."
If all Paths are equal then why was the Sikh religion started?

Source: If all Paths are equal then why was the Sikh religion started? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net

It is a ‘totally false’ argument that Sikhism believes all paths lead to the same goal and thus all religions are equal. From its very inception, Gurmat (the Guru’s Path) has been declared a unique and distinct path. Bhai Gurdaas Ji writes:


ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿੱਕਾ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥ ਚਲਾਯਾ॥
“In the world, Guru Nanak Sahib Ji established the authority (of his doctrines) and started a Path (of religion), devoid of any impurity.”
(Vaar 1, Pauree 45 – Bhai Gurdaas Ji)


The claim that all paths lead to the same goal is covered in Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh Ji’s book ‘Anhad Shabad Dasam Duar - Open discussion of unstruck ethereal music at tenth door of abode-divine’, pages 46-47:


"The Liberation-state of Gurmat is unique and different in concept from other religious faiths. Liberation is not the mere ending-up of the human body or just an escapement of the soul from its bodily cage. Some envisage liberation as riddance from afflictions associated with the human body. They believe liberation is unattainable as so long as the soul is caged within the human body. Others identify liberation as the fulfillment of their desires to abide in a heavenly abode. However, this kind of liberation falls very short compared to the Gurmat concept of liberation. Liberation is not the banishment of imagined pain and sorrow, nor can it be described as the disassociation of the soul-being from materialism. Yogic faith conceives liberation as empty consciousness through meditational practices that bear no semblance to the Gurmat concept. Vedantic faith believes in the removal of duality to arrive at oneness with The Absolute, in order to be liberated. Buddhism believes liberation to be a state of total renunciation of desire and negative thought - Nirvaana. Jainism considers that non-violence and non-killing leads to liberation. Mere escape from transmigration is not the essence of True Liberation....


Gurmat considers the above listed forms of liberation as halfway and incomplete. The swan-bird Gurmukhs who are blessed with Divine Enlightenment reject all these forms. They merge with The Divine Immaculate Light whilst living; they envision The Glorious Lord in full Divine Splendour.


Gurmukhs are sustained by the nourishment of Naam-Divine, while they behold The Lord at all times. They find True Liberation within this Love-Divine...Their Liberation lies in the sole occupation of Naam-Devotion, in accordance with Gurmat. This supreme state is reached through complete dedication, when one takes refuge within The Guru...what is not sought is a form of liberation devoid of God-Realisation."


If we use this viewpoint to analyse some mainstream schools of thought, we may reach the following conclusions:


In Hindu or Vedantic traditions, Liberation = various states according to different schools i.e. freedom from transmigration, realisation of self as God (Sohang) etc.


In Buddhism, Liberation = realisation of the nature of self/ escape from desires/ Nirvaana.


In Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Liberation = heavenly abode/ paradise


In Sikhi, Liberation = absorption into Vaheguru/Naam, the destruction of self/ego, the merging of Aatma (soul) into ParAatma (Universal Soul) - all of which can only be achieved through complete dedication to The Guru's Teachings.

The concept of equality exemplified by Sikhi is not the result of a debate concerning which paths are more (or less) efficient and ultimately productive; equality is not based upon such rational discussions or language games. The Sikhi concept of equality is an inward and outward acceptance of all and seeing everyone as a soul rather than religious labels, which results directly from the practice of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee's teachings.


When it comes to true enlightenment, or liberation, Guru jee is very clear about its unique nature and definition within Gurmat; and in doing so we are taught who and what really is The True Teacher.


Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee over and over stresses the importance of "Gurmat Naam". Without Gurmat Naam no one can merge in Vaheguru or reach ‘Sach Khand’ (the spiritual state of Truth). In the House of Guru Nanak only Naam is found, the only tool to experience and merge into God.


ਏਹੁ ਅਹੇਰਾ ਕੀਨੋ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੪॥੪॥
“God has given this gift. Nanak’s home is filled with only Naam, the Name of Vaheguru. ||4||4||
(Ang 1136)


Without Naam, no one can be liberated and merge with God. Gurbani is clear about this fact:
ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੀ ॥
ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੀ ਤਰੁ ਤੂ ਤਾਰੀ ॥੯॥੭॥
“Those enshrined the True Name within their heart, those within is the flowing current of Naam, and those whose consciousness is attached to the vibrations of the Guru's Baani obtain all comforts and liberation from Maya (the illusionary world). O Nanak! Without the Naam, no one is saved; You too swim across to the other side this true way in which there no chance of drowning. ||9||7||”
(Ang 1013)


Sikhi is unique by the fact that it does not condemn others to Hell or say if you are not Sikh you are eternally damned. Rather a Sikh prays at least twice daily for "Sarbat Da Bhallaa", meaning the good and prosperity of all Humanity regardless of religion, belief or faith.


ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਚੜਦੀ ਕਲਾ। ਤੇਰੇ. ਭਾਣੇ ਸਰਬੱਤ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ।
"May the Divine-Name preached by Nanak be exalted. May all prosper and be blessed within Your Will."
(Daily Sikh Ardaas)


All faiths will get what they work towards. Guru Nanak Sahib jee is the only True Guru who has preached Naam, and given Gurmat-Naam. Only Gurmat has a concept such as Sach Khand and God-Realisation in such a clear way. Thus, Gurmat is the only path to Sach Khand, i.e. merging with God.
 

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What now is new that Guru Nanak has created? We can find some of these new ideas within the Shabad, spoken by Guru Arjan Dev in the House of Guru Nanak.


The lines quoted by respected Josh Martin ji

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥
so
panddith jo man parabodhhai ||
He is a true
Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥
raam naam aatham mehi sodhhai ||
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.


Guru Arjan Dev is saying Do not look to anyone else, nor look outside in ceremony, rituals, and cleansing baths. Guru Nanak is saying look within because a true Pandit, a gyani, instructs his own mind and searches for wisdom int the form of the Naam within his own soul. This is not given to him but found in the Sat Nam

Their fuller meaning becomes alive in the context of the full shabad.

ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥
bhagouthee bhagavanth bhagath kaa rang ||
The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God.

ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ॥
sagal thiaagai dhusatt kaa sang ||
He forsakes the company of all wicked people.


ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ ॥
man thae binasai sagalaa bharam ||
All doubts are removed from his mind.


ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥
kar poojai sagal paarabreham ||
He performs devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥
saadhhasang paapaa mal khovai ||
In the Company of the Holy, the filth of sin is washed away.


ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
this bhagouthee kee math ootham hovai ||
The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes supreme.


ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕੀ ਟਹਲ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਨੀਤਿ ॥
bhagavanth kee ttehal karai nith neeth ||
He constantly performs the service of the Supreme Lord God.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਬਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥
man than arapai bisan pareeth ||
He dedicates his mind and body to the Love of God.

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
har kae charan hiradhai basaavai ||
The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart.

ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥
naanak aisaa bhagouthee bhagavanth ko paavai ||3||
O Nanak, such a Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||


ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥
so
panddith jo man parabodhhai ||
He is a true
Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.


ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥
raam naam aatham mehi sodhhai ||
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ॥
raam naam saar ras peevai ||
He drinks in the Exquisite Nectar of the Lord's Name.


ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕੈ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥
ous
panddith kai oupadhaes jag jeevai ||
By that
Pandit's teachings, the world lives.

v ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
har kee kathhaa hiradhai basaavai ||
He implants the Sermon of the Lord in his heart.

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
so
panddith fir jon n aavai ||
Such a
Pandit is not cast into the womb of reincarnation again.


ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.


ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.


ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.


ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥
naanak ous
panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a
Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||

What is new about the devotee who loves the sermon of the Lord and that had not been given before? The perspective is entirely new. Instruction, devotion, jaap, none of this is restricted to some layers of society and foribidden to others. Nanak, Guru Nanak, bows in salutation to the bhaugautee who instructs his own mind, and who plants the sermon of the Lord in his own heart. No middle man is required to mediate the relaitonship with the Satguru. It is a new perspective, because this is a pandit who is not driven by fear of the social structure of his day. The Pandit that Nanak bows to instructs his own mind with the Naam and gives instruction to everyone.
 
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Ekmusafir Ajnabi said in August of 2007 "By definition in the Encarta Dictionary Ahimsa – “not harming living things” the Hindu, Buddhist, and Jainist philosophy of revering all life and refraining from harm to any living thing. Indeed it is a wonderful thought. It is only a concept that can never go into practice. From the time we wake up to the time we go to sleep and in sleep thereafter there are thousands of bacteria that are dying day and night to keep this body in service. Why because our body is the supreme life on earth. Even the Devtas are yearning to have a body in order to exit from the realm of Brahm to beyond Brahma (Par Braham)".
While that is true it carries the point to absurdity, to be equally absurd the human body being dead feeds more organisms than it ever did while alive. Anyway the point here is karma and the difference treading on an ant while walking or striking another person or eating a steak is huge so we must do the best we can in deed and thought. This is why karma has to be in the realm of holy men and saints not academic types.

Peace
Satyaban

Peace
Satyaban
 
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spnadmin

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Satyaban ji

You have given the opinion of Ek Musafir Ajnabi, former SPN member. And it is true that he subscribes to the notion that a human guru is necessary to take a person to the Guru and mukhti. He has told me this personally in private messages, email. And he has stated such on the forum as you have demonstrated. His opinion is an opinon that deviates from a core belief of Sikhism which states that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the only Guru. IMHO there is a certain amount of silliness in the idea tha karma has to be in the hands of sants and not academic types, as karma is a universal condition, an equal opportunity challenger who excludes no one; AND sants and academic types are not the only "types" who are affected by it.

Appearances are deceiving.
 

BhagatSingh

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His conclusion does not follow his premise.
We need holy men because we are killing organisms every second, and thats bad karma. :confused: That's what it reads to me. Care to explain?
 
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What I said was, although apparently not too clearly I will take my advice on karma from saints and holy men such as Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Ramakrishna and Sat Guru Subramuniyaswami as opposed an academic. Who knows more of spiritual matters?
To throw out the principle of "ahimsa" because of what some academic says about killing bacteria is ridiculous. As I said before the killing of bacteria or stepping on an ant while walking pales in the karma incurred in harming a dog or a human.
Upon rereading I think my post was really pretty clear.

Peace
Satyaban
 

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Is all teaching in vain?
"True wisdom can be acquired by practice only. Practice the truth that thy brother is the same as thou.
Walk in the noble path of righteousness and
thou wilt understand that while there is death in self, there is immortality in truth."

World Mysteries - Near Death Experience, Life After Death & Reincarnation

But this does not mean that unity = uniformity, or that it should. We sometimes should consider how imposition of sameness, sometime quite brutally, has historically created more strife than the acceptance of differences.
 

Astroboy

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But this does not mean that unity = uniformity, or that it should. We sometimes should consider how imposition of sameness, sometime quite brutally, has historically created more strife than the acceptance of differences.
Narayanjot Kaur Ji,

If only man should understand to pursue the true aspects of natural law and not the illusionary, then things will be more favorable to man himself. For example, in Asa Di War the tuk - Paani ander leek jui this da thao na theyau - means you cannot find a permanent mark when you attempt to draw a line on water.

Let's read about a Buddhist thought; the following dialogue is an excerpt from the same link reference as my previous post.

Self is death and truth is life. The cleaving to self is a perpetual dying, while moving in the truth is partaking of Nirvana which is life everlasting." Then Kutadanta said: "Where, O venerable Master, is Nirvana?" "Nirvana is wherever the precepts are obeyed replied the Blessed One.
"Do I understand thee aright," rejoined the Brahman, "That Nirvana is not a place, and being nowhere it is without reality?" "Thou dost not understand me aright," said the Blessed One, "Now listen and answer these questions: Where does the wind dwell
"Nowhere," was the reply.
Buddha retorted: "Then, sir, there is no such thing as wind." Kutadanta made no reply; and the Blessed One asked again: "Answer me, O Brahman, where does wisdom dwell? Is wisdom a locality?"
"Wisdom has no allotted dwelling-place replied Kutadanta. Said the Blessed One: "Meanest thou that there is no wisdom, no enlightenment, no righteousness, and no salvation, because Nirvana is not a locality? As a great and mighty wind which passeth over the world in the heat of the day, so the Tathagata comes to blow over the minds of mankind with the breath of his love, so cool, so sweet, so calm, so delicate; and those tormented by fever assuage their suffering and rejoice at the refreshing breeze."
 

spnadmin

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NamJap ji

I think once before in a similar conversation between us I remarked that nirvana would not be imposed on the unwilling. People have to be free to make some of these choices.

Here is a tag line from history where there was Oneness equaled Uniformity, and Uniformity equaled Oppression.

He had his son Gobind Singh consecrated Guru and successor on 8th July 1675, and then left Anandpur for Delhi with 3 other Sikhs who knew as well the danger they were to face, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dayal Das. It seems orders for his arrest had been issued by emperor Aurangzeb as soon as he received reports of his declared intention, because he was arrested four days later. An entry in Bhatt Vahi Multani Sindhi reads:
Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Guru,… …was taken into custody by Nur Muhammad Khan Miraza of Ropar Police post, on Savan 12,1732 /12th July 1675, at Malikpur Ranghran, Pargana Ghanaula, and sent to Sirhind. Along with him were arrested Diwan Mati Das and Sati Das, sons of Hira Nand Chhibbar, and Dyal Das, son of Mai Das. They were kept in custody at Bassi Pathana for four months. The pitiless captors imposed much atrocity on the Guru. He was then cast into an iron cage and taken to Delhi, where he arrived on 4th Nov. 1675. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Tegh_Bahadur


One who accepted and defended religious differences was our 9th Guru
.
Guru Tej Bahdur accepted differences and even was willing to defend "differences" and the right to have religious difference and diversity. Aurangzeb was a fervent believer in Oneness. He disrespected diverse religious traditions and would go to no limit to demonstrate in his own way that all DISRUPTION AND STRIFE BETWEEN RELIGIONS COULD BE EASILY RESOLVVED IF EVERYONE WERE TO ACCEPT THE IDEA TO WORSHIP THE SAME GOD.
 

Astroboy

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I think once before in a similar conversation between us I remarked that nirvana would not be imposed on the unwilling. People have to be free to make some of these choices.

I think every religion has a term for everlasting bliss and state of experienced spiritual ecstasy.

Nirvana means the subsiding of all human passions.
When ultimately the soul at its journey's end reaches the True Home of the Father and sees the splendour of Godhood in the ineffable resplendent light, one begins to see God in everything in the Universe. When Christ and Buddha rose above the body consciousness, they referred to the Way as leading to the Kingdom of God and the Nirvana pad respectively. The Muslims call it Muqam-i-Haq, and the Christians, New Jerusalem. Thereafter, Christ used to say: "Behold the Lord." And Guru Nanak would exclaim: "The Lord of Nanak is visible everywhere." The Sage of Dakshneshwar, Sri Rama Krishna Parmhans, when questioned by young Naren, as Swami Vivekananda was then known, whether he had seen God, replied: "Yes, my child, I have seen Him as clearly as I see you; nay, more than that."
This state baffles all description. The Muslim saints declare this condition as "Hairat, Hairat," and the Hindus, as "Aschraj, Aschraj" and the Sikhs, as "Waho, Waho", all of which are expressions of wonder. The teachings of most of the saints amongst Hindus and Muslims refer as far as Brahm. Very rarely do we find in them references to Parbrahm.

SPIRITUALITY: A Peep Inside
 

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NamJap ji

Most of what you say is likely indisputable. Looking for areas of sameness is not what worries me about conversations like this. In fact it is healthy to examine where areas of agreement can be found. That is an important step to overcoming religious intolerance.

My suspicions lie with the idea that all religions are the same, worship the same God, are headed in the same direction -- none of that is true -- all of it is oversimplification and shows a lack of respect for the facts. The only way for such grand over-generalizations to be true is by using force to make the idea of a singleness of truth to become a fact.
Every historical effort to Impose the idea of sameness, oneness, unity, etc. has been marked by bloodshed and oppression was a movement that dishonored what was unique in the religion of another. There are 2 ways to impose sameness/oneness: the b******y way and the bloodless way. The b******y way we are familiar with: religious persecution and oppression in which overlords try to re-write history. See above.

There are many other famous examples. The bloodless way is through the imposition of "political correctness" or its close cousin, attempting to create ideas that are acceptable based on thinking of a self-styled intelligentsia. We are in this decade experiencing the bloodless form of religious oppression. We are asked to imbibe the rhetoric of groups that are impressed with the apparent merits of their theories of oneness. They cannot see how they are actually dishonoring all religions. Or maybe they do see that and actually want to dishonor religions. And if the latter is true, then intellectually they are little different from a Moghul overlord.
 

Josh martin

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Jul 8, 2009
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vsgrewal48895

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DEAD WHILE ALIVE/ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤ

ABSTRACT

This term in Sikh thought is applied to those who get enlightened with spiritual wisdom. Their mental tranquility and thinking are not affected by ordinary worldly affairs. They are asleep as to worldly concerns. Life is the teacher of all teachers. Knowing this, we can all pass on the lessons of our lives to guide others on their own paths. We should however perform this role as a guide in humility. When we stop our own development, we stop living in any significant sense. The flame goes out when we stop loving. It goes out when materialism and egoism overpower us. We can release our spirit from this bondage through spiritual development, if we continuously keep exploring our new inner state. This is an art to maintaining the spiritual fire and ripening the fruits of life's labors. In this state one is both here and not here, in thought and not in thought, and simultaneously alive and dead through the Sabd says Guru Nanak in Raag Parbhati;


ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਜਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ ਸਚੀ ਰਹਤ ਸਚਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥

Jīvan mukaṯ jā sabaḏ suṇā▫e. Sacẖī rahaṯ sacẖā sukẖ pā▫e. Man māre jīvaṯ mar jāṇ. Nānak naḏrī naḏar pacẖẖāṇ.

One is dead and liberated while yet alive, by listening to the Sabd. Living a truthful way of life, one finds true peace. Whoever subdues his mind, knows the state of being dead while yet alive. O Nanak, by Its Grace, the Gracious Akal Purkh is realized. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page 1343

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So what is the reality?

The "reality" is made up of different realms.

1. The physical realm.

2. The mental realm.

3. Spiritual realm.

Physical realm truly exists. It is not an illusion as represented in some other religions. The trees that we see, the cars, the buildings, the big cities, rivers, mountains, planet Earth, they all exist. This physical reality is the same for everybody. We or our instruments may observer and measure the same phenomena. But the interpretation of this physical reality is not the same for everyone. Inner perception of the outer reality varies from individual to individual. Hence one may say that the mental realm is an illusion. The perception of the spiritual realm, however, occurs in a conscious state of mind. In this state reason and emotion both speak with the same voice. Few attain this state except in dreams so it is difficult to say whether the spiritual realm truly exists. It may be an illusion. It could be a spiritual experience. For that we turn to Sabd Guru.
Guru Amardas in Raag Asa describes the only way to cross this worldly ocean (ਭਵਜਲੁ). is being dead while alive through love and devotional worship of the all Knower by understanding the Word or Sabd. On this path to emancipation one must shed his ego and reflect on the teachings at each step of a householder’s existence:

ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਅੰਧਾ ਬੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਨਲ ਵਾਉ ॥ਦੀਵਾ ਬਲੈ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਘਟਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਅੰਧਾ ਬੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਨਲ ਵਾਉ ॥ ਦੀਵਾ ਬਲੈ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਘਟਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਭਾਉ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ਪਾਖੰਡਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਤਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਇ ॥ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ਹਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ਨਿਹਚਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ॥ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

Niraṯ karė baho vājė vajā¬ė. Ih man anḏẖā bolā hai kis ākẖ suṇā¬ė.Anṯar lobẖ bẖaram anal vā¬o. Ḏīvā balai na sojẖī pā¬ė. Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ gẖat cẖānaṇ ho¬ė. Āp pacẖẖāṇ milai parabẖ so¬ė. Gurmukẖ niraṯ har lāgai bẖā¬o. Pūrė ṯāl vicẖahu āp gavā¬ė. Mėrā parabẖ sācẖā āpė jāṇ. Gur kai sabaḏ anṯar barahm pacẖẖāṇ. Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ anṯar parīṯ pi¬ār. Gur kā sabaḏ sahj vīcẖār. Gurmukẖ bẖagaṯ jugaṯ sacẖ so¬ė. Pakẖand bẖagaṯ niraṯ ḏukẖ ho¬ė. Ėhā bẖagaṯ jan jīvaṯ marai. Gur parsādī bẖavjal ṯarai. Gur kai bacẖan bẖagaṯ thā¬ė pā¬ė. Har jī¬o āp vasai man ā¬ė. Har kirpā karė saṯgurū milā¬ė. Nihcẖal bẖagaṯ har si¬o cẖiṯ lā¬ė. Bẖagaṯ raṯė ṯinĥ sacẖī so¬ė. Nānak nām raṯė sukẖ ho¬ė.

Mind is blind, deaf and impervious to devotion; even one may perform ritual dancing with orchestral music in devotional worship. Deep within us are the fire of greed, and the dust-storm of doubt. The lamp of knowledge is not burning, and understanding is not obtained. The Guru willed has the light of devotional worship within his heart. Understanding his own self, he meets God. A Guru willed dances to embrace the love for his Akal Purkh, to the beat of the drum as he sheds his ego from within. His God is true. God Itself is the Knower of all. Through the Word of the Guru's Sabd, we recognize the Creator Akal Purkh within ourselves. A Gurmukh is filled with devotional love for the Beloved God. He intuitively reflects upon the Word of the Guru's Sabd. For the Guru willed, loving devotional worship is the way to the True Akal Purkh. But the dances and the worship of the hypocrites bring only pain. True Devotion is to remain dead while yet alive. By Guru's Grace, one crosses over the terrible world-ocean. Through the Guru's Teachings, one's devotion is accepted, and then, the Dear Akal Purkh It self comes to dwell in the mind. When the God bestows Its Mercy, and leads us to meet the True Guru. At this stage, one's devotion becomes steady. His consciousness gets centered upon the Akal Purkh. Those immersed in Devotion gain a true reputation. O Nanak, in contemplation of the Naam, peace is obtained. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, Page, 364-14 & 15

Gurus Amardas, Arjan and Bhagats Kabir and Namdev express their views on this subject in the following Ragas to achieve that state through Grace of God/Guru;

ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਤਜਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥ਧੰਧਾ ਧਾਵਤ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ਲਾਗਾ ਸਾਚਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ਸਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਸਾਚੈ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥

Saṯgur sėv man nirmalā ha¬umai ṯaj vikār. Āp cẖẖod jīvaṯ marai gur kai sabaḏ vīcẖār. Ḏẖanḏẖā ḏẖāvaṯ reh ga¬ė lāgā sācẖ pi¬ār. Sacẖ raṯė mukẖ ujlė ṯiṯ sācẖai ḏarbār.

Serving the True Guru, the mind becomes immaculate and pure; egotism and corruption are discarded. So abandon your selfishness, and remain dead while yet alive by Contemplating on the Word of the Guru's Sabd. The pursuit of worldly affairs comes to an end, when you embrace love for the True One. Those who are attuned to Truth, their faces are radiant in the Court of the True Akal Purkh. -----Guru Amardas, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 34-10

ਏਹਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਤਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਇ ॥ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥

Ėhā bẖagaṯ jan jīvaṯ marai. Gur parsādī bẖavjal ṯarai. Gur kai bacẖan bẖagaṯ thā¬ė pā¬ė. Har jī¬o āp vasai man ā¬ė.

True Devotion is to remain dead while yet alive. By Guru's Grace, one crosses over the terrible world-ocean. Through the Guru's Teachings, one's devotion is accepted, and then, the Dear Akal Purkh It self comes to dwell in the mind. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 365-1

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਉਲਟੀ ਭਈ ਭਾਈ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਬੂਝ ਪਾਇ॥ਸੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੋਸਿਖੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿਮਿਲਾਇ॥

Saṯgur mili¬ai ultī bẖa¬ī bẖā¬ī jīvaṯ marai ṯā būjẖ pā¬ė. So gurū so sikẖ hai bẖā¬ī jis joṯī joṯ milā¬ė.

Meeting the True Guru, one turns away from the world, O Siblings of Destiny. When he remains dead while yet alive, he obtains a true understanding. He alone is the Guru, and he alone is a Disciple, O Siblings of Destiny, whose light merges in the Light. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 602-17

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੀਵੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਸੋਈ ਪਾਏ ਜਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥

Gur parsādī jīvaṯ marai mar jīvai sabaḏ kamā¬ė. Mukaṯ ḏu¬ārā so¬ī pā¬ė je vicẖahu āp gavā¬ė.

By Guru's Grace, the mortal dies in life, and by so dying, lives to practice the Word of the Sabd. He alone finds the Door of Salvation, who eradicates self-conceit from within himself. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1276-5

ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾਂ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ॥ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਰੈ ॥ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਤਰੈ ॥

Karam hovai ṯāʼn sėvā karai. Gur parsādī jīvaṯ marai. An¬ḏin sācẖ nām ucẖrai. In biḏẖ parāṇī ḏuṯar ṯarai.

If the Akal Purkh is merciful, then the mortal is allowed to serve It. By Guru's Grace, he remains dead while yet alive. Night and day, he chants the True Name; in this way, he crosses over the treacherous world-ocean. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1172-6

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਸਵਾਰੈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਉਰ ਧਾਰੈ ॥

Jīvaṯ marai mar maraṇ savārai. Gur kai sabaḏ sācẖ ur ḏẖārai.

One who dies while yet alive, truly dies, and embellishes his death. Through the Word of the Guru's Sabd, he enshrines the True Akal Purkh within his heart.
-----Guru Amardas, Raag Basant, AGGS, 1174-17

ਣਾਣਾ ਰਣ ਤੇ ਸੀਝੀਐ ਆਤਮ ਜੀਤੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ਹਉਮੈ ਅਨ ਸਿਉ ਲਰਿ ਮਰੈ ਸੋ ਸੋਭਾ ਦੂ ਹੋਇ ॥ਮਣੀ ਮਿਟਾਇ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ਮਨੂਆ ਜੀਤੈ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਿਹ ਸੂਰਤਣ ਵੇਸ ॥

Ņāṇā raṇ ṯė sījẖī¬ai āṯam jīṯai ko¬ė. Ha¬umai an si¬o lar marai so sobẖā ḏū ho¬ė. Maṇī mitā¬ė jīvaṯ marai gur pūrė upḏės. Manū¬ā jīṯai har milai ṯih sūrṯaṇ vės.

NANNA: One, who conquers his own conscience, wins the battle of life. One, who dies, while fighting against egotism and alienation, becomes sublime and beautiful. One who eradicates his ego, remains dead while yet alive, through the Teachings of the Perfect Guru. He conquers his mind, and meets the Akal Purkh; he is dressed in robes of honor. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 256-15

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥

Jīvaṯ marai bujẖai parabẖ so¬ė. Ŧis jan karam parāpaṯ ho¬ė.

One who remains dead while yet alive understands God. He meets that humble being according to the karma of his past actions. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 741-9

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਮਰੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੀਵੈ ਐਸੇ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਨ ਭਵਜਲਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Jīvaṯ marai marai fun jīvai aisė sunn samā¬i¬ā. Anjan māhi niranjan rahī¬ai bahuṛ na bẖavjal pā¬i¬ā.

One, who remains dead while yet alive, will live even after death. He merges thus into the Primal Void of the Absolute Akal Purkh. Remaining pure in the midst of impurity, he will never again fall into the terrifying world-ocean. -----Kabir, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 332-16

ਜਉ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤਰੈ ॥ਜਉ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ਤ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ॥

Ja¬o gurḏė¬o ṯa baikunṯẖ ṯarai. Ja¬o gurḏė¬o ṯa jīvaṯ marai.

By the Grace of the Divine Guru, one swims across to heaven. By the Grace of the Divine Guru, one remains dead while yet alive. -----Namdev, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1166-14

Conclusion:

One needs more than just mental control over the body, in his journey on a spiritual path. He also needs some psychokinetic control over the external world as well. This is achieved through Guru’s Grace. Human consciousness can transcend simple linear time. It is also possible to develop precognition and spiritual wisdom based on an understanding of the Word and reflecting on it. This can only happen, when the five senses are stilled and thinking has ceased. When the intellect does not stir, one can enjoy the tranquility of mind and reach the highest state of spirituality. This is accomplished by subjugating the lower instincts of lust, anger, attachment, pride, and greed and by letting God in. Then one can realize the Godly instincts of Truth, Contentment, Compassion, Faith and fortitude. Guru Nanak describes the techniques of liberation in Raag Asa;

ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥ਮਨੁ ਕਿਰਸਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਜੰਮਾਇ ਲੈ ਇਉ ਪਾਵਸਿ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ॥

Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā¬o sāringpāṇī. Man kirsāṇ har riḏai jammā¬ė lai i¬o pāvas paḏ nirbāṇī.

Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Akal Purkh, who holds the entire world in Its hands. Let your mind be the farmer; the Akal Purkh shall sprout in your heart, and you shall attain the state of Nirvana. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 23-15

Virinder S.Grewal
 
Aug 27, 2005
328
223
76
Baltimore Md USA
Narayanjot Kaur:
I appreciate your previous post very much but speaking for myself I can let my intellect sometimes complicate simple issues. One of my favorite saints Sri Paramahansa Ramakrishna experienced most religions and for lack of a better term found them all valuable, that is to say he found a commonality in them all that was good. He determined that all religions worshipped God and not a false one and that all religions could lead to liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth whether it was in their belief system or not because they worked to absolve karma. So in general all religions were heading in the same direction. Of course dogma and doctrine and make things cloudy sometimes but I am an optimist in such matters.

It is not my position that all religions are the same, that would be really stupid of me, but they have much more in common than many will admit.

Peace
Satyaban
 
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